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Documents Unsealed in Kohberger Case; Gabbard Accuses Obama of Manufacturing Intelligence; Warning of Mass Starvation in Gaz; Rep. Sam Liccardo (D-CA) is Interviewed about the Epstein Case; Macrons Sue Candace Owens. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired July 24, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:30:02]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Erica Hill. Nice to have you with us here on CNN THIS MORNING.

It's just about 6:30, almost, on the East Coast. Here's a look at what's happening right now.

Sources telling CNN, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche is expected to visit Ghislaine Maxwell in prison as soon as today. Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend, is serving 20 years for sex trafficking and other charges. Yesterday, the House Oversight Committee issued a subpoena to depose Maxwell in August.

As the pressure builds on Fed Chair Jerome Powell, President Trump set to tour the Federal Reserve today for a look at the $2.5 billion renovation project underway there. The renovations, of course, have been a major point of scrutiny for Powell and the White House.

New video this morning shows the burning fuselage of a Russian passenger plane. The plane was carrying about 50 people when it went missing in Russia's far eastern region, according to state TV. A rescue helicopter spotted the wreckage near a mountain. No survivors were seen from the air.

Life without parole for the man responsible for the gruesome killings of four University of Idaho students in 2022. Bryan Kohberger chose not to speak. The loved ones of his victims, however, directly addressing him as they remembered Kaylee Goncalves, Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle and Madison Mogen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DYLAN MORTENSEN, EYEWITNESS TO MURDERS: In my mom's bed because I was too terrified to close my eyes. Terrified that if I blinked, someone might be there.

RANDY DAVIS, XANA KERNODLE'S STEPFATHER: You took our children. You are going to suffer, man. I'm shaking because I want to reach out to you, but I just -- I hope you feel my energy, OK. Go to hell. STEVE GONCALVES, KAYLEE GONCALVES' FATHER: The world's watching

because of the kids, not because of you. Nobody cares about you. You're not worth the time, the effort to be remembered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Hundreds of documents in the investigation were also released yesterday, and more will follow on a rolling basis. Among the information released yesterday, though, details of the murder scene and Kohberger's first interview with officials.

Joining me now, former Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg.

Dave, good to have you here this morning.

These documents are -- they're a lot, quite frankly. So, they reveal a number of the gruesome details of that crime scene, of the killing, also what was uncovered in the investigation. What does releasing these documents change in this moment?

DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: Erica, it doesn't change much because there's so much we still don't know. Like, what was Kohberger's motive? I would have hoped that if the prosecutors would cut a deal with him, that we would find out what his motive was to help give the family some closure. We still don't know. We still don't know what happened to the murder weapon. Where was that knife? What did he do with it?

I had a case where we cut a plea deal with a murderer and in exchange for the plea deal, he had to tell us where the body was. And it helped give the family closure. That was a deal we made with the murderer, but also with the victims and their wishes. I wish they had that here. More information. We don't know who the target was. Did he target one of the girls in the house, or was the house the target because it was so convenient, so easily accessible?

We did find out some other things that were important, like, for example, law enforcement said he was not behind the social media account Papa Roger, which seemed to know a lot about this case and went silent after he was incarcerated. That, to me, seems strange, though, because this guy, Kohberger, wiped his computer. So, is that why he's not being tied to the social media account?

And then one last thing. We found out that Xana Kernodle, one of the victims, had more than 50 stab wounds. And, to me, that shows misogyny, a real anger, real hate. Maybe that was the motive all along.

HILL: To, you know, to your point about, you had said, I believe, that, first of all, you -- you wanted the prosecution to take this to trial, but that you would have liked to see, in terms of the plea deal here, that there was perhaps more focus on getting him to talk about the why. But oftentimes the reality is we may not ever get that answer.

So, how much -- I mean how much more do you think you could get out of him who doesn't seem to be, at least in addition, some of the documents are released, doesn't seem like somebody who's really all that willing to talk?

ARONBERG: Well, you can make it part of the plea deal that he had to come up with more information. But perhaps they didn't want him to set the narrative. They don't trust this guy. He's a liar. He's a sociopath.

But you're right to point out about the why. Maybe that's one reason why the prosecution did not go to trial, because they never had the why. And although the why, the motive in the case, is not required, it's not an element of a first-degree murder charge. Jurors always want to know the why. And that was the hole perhaps in the prosecution's case, because they had this guy dead to rights (ph). They had plenty of evidence linking him to the crime. But we still don't know why he did it. And, to me, that's still troubling. I wish we had gotten that information. And they could have. They could have pressed them for it. Even if he tried to set the narrative himself, at least we'll get more information just for the sake of closure.

HILL: Dave, good to see you this morning. Thank you.

ARONBERG: Thank you, Erica.

HILL: One day after President Trump basically accused Barack Obama of treason, his director of national intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, is claiming she has the evidence.

[06:35:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TULSI GABBARD, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: President Obama, and his national security team, directed the creation of an intelligence community assessment that they knew was false. They knew it would promote this contrived narrative that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help President Trump win, selling it to the American people as though it were true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Gabbard has just declassified a highly sensitive congressional report that she insists contains more evidence of a treasonous conspiracy. And now Attorney General Pam Bondi is creating a strike force to assess Gabbard's evidence and to investigate potential next legal steps. That has former Obama aides, including James Clapper, worried.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Do you have concerns that -- that they will attempt to prosecute you?

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Well , certainly I do. It's very disconcerting. It really is. And I take seriously when the president of the United States accuses me of being a participant in a treasonous conspiracy, which is ridiculous.

COLLINS: So, what will you do if they come after you? What is your plan?

CLAPPER: Well, I will -- I'll -- I'll lawyer up, I suppose. Already have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: You have the former DNI saying he will "lawyer up."

The group chat is back.

How widespread is the concern about what this could mean for former Democratic officials moving forward?

DANIEL KOH, HOST, "THE PEOPLE'S CABINET" PODCAST: Well, here's the reality. Trump's mentality in term two, that was different than term one, was, he's going to put people in cabinet positions where loyalty is the number one priority, not qualifications, right? And so, you see Tulsi Gabbard. You see she sees that her boss is getting a lot of heat for the Epstein files, right? And so she's coming up with this -- you can't really debunk, the CIA has already debunked this entire story, right -- to try to distract from this.

Look, let's take a look at the context here, right? She was not standing behind the president after the Iran bombing. It was reported that she was kind of being ousted by the administration. This is the consequence of that, right? She will do anything she can to stay in the president's good graces. And that's why I think you're seeing this ridiculousness.

I will say, though, I don't think that this issue is landing with the American public. They know that this is a wag the dog situation. I don't think many people are fooled.

HILL: But just to -- just to put a point on it, though, is there a concern, right, including what we hear from former Director Clapper, you know, among, perhaps, maybe former colleagues that you've spoken to?

KOH: Sure. I think so, right, because if you're operating on the basis of unsubstantiated claims and anyone's up for grabs, I think that's why you saw President Obama, who rarely speaks out on these things, just put an end to it because it's ridiculous.

HILL: There's also what came up, you know, what also came up in the briefing yesterday was this question of presidential immunity. And I was -- I was struck because, of course, we have the finding from the Supreme Court, right, which made President Trump very happy. I was struck by the -- the response when she was asked, when Karoline Leavitt was asked about it at the brief. I just want to play that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you, or the White House, believe that the Supreme Court's immunity decision protects Obama from prosecution?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: And he wants to see all those who perpetuated this fraud against our country, who betrayed our country and the Constitution, to be thoroughly investigated and held accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Wants them to be held accountable. So, I just want to follow that up too with what we have heard from President Trump over the years about presidential immunity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (April 25, 2024): Presidential immunity is imperative, or you practically won't have a country anymore.

TRUMP (March 4, 2024): If a president doesn't have full immunity, you really don't have a president.

TRUMP (January 9, 2024): I feel that, as a president, you have to have immunity. Very simple.

TRUMP (January 9, 2024): I'm entitled to immunity. Every president has immunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Virginia, how do you see this question moving forward?

VIRGINIA ALLEN, HOST, "THE DAILY SIGNAL PODCAST" AND "PROBLEMATIC WOMEN": Yes, well, I think here, really, it's about the truth coming out, right? And so, when we see these documents released, and you go through them, there are real questions to be raised. I think one of the biggest questions is, why was there a change in the assessment that two days before the 2016 election you had folks in the intelligence community saying, OK, we're seeing maybe a tiny bit of Russia influence, but make no mention of Putin specifically working to see Trump elected.

And then we see, about a month after the election, the Obama administration, they asked that intelligence group, hey, go back, kind of reassess. And then, all of a sudden we see these claims come out of, no, Putin specifically was working to have Trump elected. So, what changed? That's the question that needs to be answered. Why did that intelligence assessment pivot.

HILL: Is there -- Margaret, I'll give you the last word on this one. I know we're a little tight on time. But as this is all playing out, right, this is very confusing, I think, for the American people in a number of ways because it goes back to what we saw and talked about at the top of the hour. There's all of these questions around and all of these messages. How does it end?

MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, "AXIOS": Eye on the prize. As -- as far as the reporting has shown us, there is nothing actually new that has been discovered. These are findings from almost a decade ago that were held under wraps, but that the previous Trump administration had access to, and that John Durham chose -- did not -- concluded were not worthy of any sort of follow up action.

[06:40:06]

And so, there are now questions being raised about whether the declassification has dangerously revealed like sources and methods in any sort of way. But in terms of what's actually new, it's not clear that anything is new except for in terms of what Americans are now being shared information around.

HILL: Right.

TALEV: At the same time, I think, number one, you're right, it's not clear that the majority of Americans would be interested in pursuing this at all. Should there be a case opened against a former president around this, it would be a real new chapter in American history.

It does come at the time that the Epstein controversy is working against President Trump. There is a question now about whether Republicans in Congress would try to compel congressional testimony or subpoena from former President Obama or officials.

If this is a short-term distraction from the Epstein problems, it could help the president with his base. If he actually pursued this to any real conclusion, it would open up a very new, controversial chapter in American politics.

HILL: Yes. Absolutely.

Stay with me. Much more ahead.

I do want to talk right now, though, about the situation in Gaza, as a number of aid organizations continue to warn of the looming famine there in the enclave. Ceasefire talks between Israel and Hamas also hitting yet another wall. The World Health Organization now says Gaza is facing a man-made mass starvation event. More than 100 humanitarian organizations calling on Israel to restore the full flow of food, clean water and medical supplies into Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLINE WILLEMEN, DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS, GAZA CITY: I have been doing this work for nine years. Never in my life have I seen -- have I been in a place where my own colleagues come to work hungry. My colleagues who have a job, who have a salary, cannot find food, are not able to feed their families. And these are the very health care workers supposed to take care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: And Nic Robertson joins us now with more.

Nic, there is growing outrage, there is also growing questions about when more aid may get in. I see that truck behind you. Are those aid trucks?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, those are aid trucks. And I'm going to step out of the way just now so P.J. Javaheri can get some shots of them. These are aid trucks. We were just watching them being processed down the road.

And I can see on the cardboard boxes, they have that logo, "GHF." That's the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. The Israeli-U.S. backed foundation that has these aid facilities set up -- aid distribution points set up inside of Gaza.

And these are points that have come under a huge amount of criticism for the number of Palestinian deaths. Palestinian medical officials say over 1,000 people have been killed as they've tried to get aid from these distribution points. But what we're witnessing here right now is a movement, it appears, of more of that -- those aid -- that aid that is -- that is passed out by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.

But what the U.N. is telling us, and I've asked John (ph) to step this way with me a little bit. Actually, there's a couple more trucks coming through here. Get a better look at them. And when you see them here, they all -- they all -- there you see "GHF" on the packaging. All these trucks here have a number on them. This one's numbered 14. I can see another one coming up behind it, number 23. The aid that's been going in here, according to international officials, according to the U.N., according to European leaders, is absolutely insufficient. This handful of trucks, we have seen a drop in the bucket according to what medical officials inside Gaza are saying is required.

One of the heads, the directors of one of the main hospitals inside of Gaza today said, what Gaza needs right now is 1,500 trucks like these every day for a month to alleviate the problem. Estimated, according to Gaza health officials, hundreds of thousands, 7,000 to 9,000 children, vulnerability of -- of not -- or not getting enough food and at least 70,000 children, they say, are already exhibiting signs of malnutrition. And what the Israeli government is saying is, it's not their fault that the aid is not getting through.

There are many, what we can't see here, just behind this fence, you can sort of, John (ph), and I will just step this way again, we'll -- well, you'll see through here, this big empty car park space to the formal border crossing into Gaza there, Kerem Shalom border crossing. Beyond there, there are tens, if not hundreds, of U.N. humanitarian, medical food aid waiting to get into Gaza.

[06:45:08]

And that's been the big point of contention between the Israeli government and the U.N. The Israeli government say that they are passing food aid across this border into Gaza. What the U.N. officials are saying is, yes, but we can't just come and pick it up because the security restrictions, the bureaucratic restrictions on us to actually get to it and take it into Gaza is part of the problem. And the Israeli government is saying, look, this is -- this is not correct. We're doing it on our side. The European leaders who have spoken out about this, the U.N. leaders

who have spoken out about it, have been very clear that they don't think that Israel is doing enough to help, that it's deliberately constricting the amount of aid getting through. But Israel says, look, don't blame it on us. We're doing our part. It's Hamas on the other side. Hamas is disrupting these aid distribution points. It is them and their fault.

But you have just had here a tiny snapshot of what happens at the border crossing. Of course, what we can't show you is all those trucks backed up on the other side. And that's the point of contention, getting access to them, actually physically getting them inside of Gaza.

HILL: Yes, which is also an important point.

Nic, really good to have you there for us this hour. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Just ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, President Trump announcing a new plan to target woke A.I. The chair of the Democratic Coalition for Innovation and Tech, Congressman Sam Liccardo, is here to discuss that and much more.

And the group chat will also be back with us.

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[06:50:52]

HILL: As the House adjourns for the August recess, the rift between Republican House leaders and members over the Epstein files shows no signs of closing. The House Oversight Committee voting to subpoena Epstein's former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is currently serving a 20 year federal sentence for sex trafficking. In a surprise move, though, a Republican-led subcommittee of that panel voted yesterday to subpoena the Department of Justice to turn over files related to the Epstein case. Three republicans breaking ranks, joining Democrats, to issue the demand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CLAY HIGGINS (R-LA): So, I don't profess to know what all those details are, including the timing. But I assure you that we'll be working together in a bipartisan manner to make certain that -- that every word is perfect and reflective of -- of what our agreements were today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Not every Democrat in Congress, though, is convinced this issue is one their party should be focused on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): I don't really have strong feelings on it. I -- for me, it's like, we -- you know, we -- we, you know, under four years, when -- when the administration, they -- they were in control of it and didn't release it. Now, today, like, so, whatever. If they want to release it, great. That's fine. Or for not. But, for me, I'm not preoccupied with those things. I think there's much more important things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now, Congressman Sam Liccardo, Democrat of California.

It's nice to have you with us. Nice to have you in the studio this morning.

REP. SAM LICCARDO (D-CA): Great to be with you, Erica.

HILL: You hear those comments from Senator Fetterman? I mean, number one, do you agree with his assessment that information was sort of sat on, not addressed? And -- and do you also agree, as he says, that it's basically time to move on? There's not a lot to see here.

LICCARDO: Well, two things can be true. Certainly this is not the Democratic scandal and conspiracy. This is something the Republicans created many years ago. It's for them to figure out and bluntly to get the information out to the public. The public deserves to know.

But, frankly, the American public doesn't care about what is or is not in a particular file. What they care about is being able to pay bills. They're worried about the future. And we need to be very clear and focused on doing what we can to help Americans who are struggling right now.

HILL: So, based on that, your sense of what -- what really matters to Americans in this moment, we're also learning, of course, that Todd Blanche is set to, perhaps as soon as today, go speak with Ghislaine Maxwell. Is that what you would like to see this administration, the Department of Justice, focusing its efforts on in this moment, given what you're hearing from constituents?

LICCARDO: Well, certainly they should release the files. There's no question about that. Whether Trump is a pedophile or not, I don't pretend to know. But clearly "The Wall Street Journal" suggests there's some implication in the files. Fine, let's release them. Let's get the information out in the public, and then let's move on. We're not getting work done right now in Congress because the Republicans were so worried about the release of these files, they shut the whole place down. We're not getting any work done, and we have a lot of work to do.

HILL: So, I should point out, based on CNN's own reporting, the president has been alerted that his name is in the files. There's no evidence that there is any inappropriate behavior that has been linked to President Trump in this moment.

You talk about what's happening, what is happening. The president signing a trio of executive orders addressing A.I. You represent Silicon Valley, former mayor of San Jose. There's been some pushback to some of those measures, which would really take away a number of regulations. There's a group of, I believe, more than 100, we're talking about labor unions, privacy groups, workers' rights groups, who are concerned that this is basically a sweetheart deal for tech companies, that there will not be enough regulations in place to protect workers, to protect the environment, frankly. Are those concerns actually being addressed? I mean you've talked about your concerns about entry level tech jobs. Is that something that can be dealt with?

LICCARDO: Oh, absolutely. And look, no amount of executive orders and big rollouts from the White House is going to change the fact that this administration is dismantling the innovation ecosystem. Right now, the best and brightest in the world no longer want to come to the United States to study or to do research or engage in scientific inquiry because they're terrified of what we're doing with immigration. Right now we are vitally needing to build out data centers and infrastructure, and we've got an administration that's doing everything they can to undermine the development of solar and wind, which is the fastest and most effective way of building out the power infrastructure we need.

[06:55:06]

This is all just a lot of fluff coming from the White House. What we need to do is be serious about innovation in a way that supports everyday workers and enables America to compete in the 21st century.

HILL: So just to drill down on that for a minute, one of -- one of the things that we've heard from the president, right, or among the things we've heard from the president is these actions that he's taken. This is all part of his plan, right, to make sure that America is a leader when it comes to A.I. That includes building more of those data centers. He's talked about the support that he's received in terms of promised investment for those data centers. Are you saying that his plan actually does the opposite, that it does not put America at the forefront?

LICCARDO: Regardless of what's in any plan, we know that innovation flourishes in open societies. Societies that are open to people, to ideas, to technology and to markets. And right now we've got an administration that is building walls, that's applying all kinds of ideological litmus tests to what kind of A.I. model we're going to use, what kind of research is going to be accepted, attacking universities, attacking research centers. This is not the way to win the war for A.I., which we need to win. We are in a critical competition right now with China.

HILL: Before I let you go, there has been so much talk over the last several months, I probably don't need to tell you this, about the future of the Democratic Party, the messaging of the Democratic Party. There's a real focus on New York City right now and the mayoral race there and Zohran Mamdani. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro was asked about him by "Jewish Insider" and said this, quote, "he seemed to run a campaign that excited New Yorkers. He also seemed to run a campaign where he left open far too much space for extremists to either use his words or for him to not condemn the words of extremists that said some blatantly anti-Semitic thing."

When we look at where he stands, he still does not, unless something has changed that I missed, have the endorsement of the minority leader, Hakeem Jeffries. It's my understanding you have not met with him personally. But when we look at the future of the Democratic Party, do you see that it lies in someone like Zohran Mamdani?

LICCARDO: Well, I think it's important for us to have a big tent. And we're going to have a lot of people with different views on a lot of issues. But the largest caucus in Congress right now is the New Democratic Coalition. That is the moderate wing, 115 members. It's larger than it's ever been. The folks who are winning in those purple districts, those battleground districts, are overwhelmingly moderates and are members of our New Dem Coalition. That tells you something about what our path is forward.

HILL: So, am I hearing that as no when it comes to Mamdani in terms of the path forward?

LICCARDO: I don't think anybody in New York City cares who I'm going to endorse or not. What I do think is, we have room in this party for people who have very progressive views and people who have moderate views. We're going to need both to win.

HILL: Congressman, nice to have you here with us today. Thank you.

LICCARDO: Great to be with you, Erica.

HILL: Well, the French president and his wife are suing right wing podcaster Candace Owens for defamation. Owens has been asking some pretty strange questions of the wife of Emmanuel Macron.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDACE OWENS, HOST, "BECOMING BRIGETTE": Did the first lady, Brigitte Macron, give birth to three children? Yes or no? You know, was she born a biological male?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Those questions now the subject of a multi-part podcast by Owens called "Becoming Brigitte," in which she alleges, without proof, that Brigitte Macron was born a man. And the questions were later -- became claims that were repeated by Owens in posts on X in which she said, "I would stake my entire professional reputation on the fact that Brigitte Macron is, in fact, a man.

Well, that has now set off a 22-count defamation lawsuit. The Macrons suing Owens. That lawsuit alleges she "has used this false statement to promote her independent platform, gain notoriety and make money." In response to the lawsuit, Owens is doubling down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDACE OWENS, "HOST, "BECOMING BRIGITTE": Today, I have been sued by the first lady man of France. So, let's just go, guys. Let's just go. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The group chat is back for a little last word on this one.

It's a -- it's -- it's something to see this lawsuit happen, and then to hear her response to it as well. She is not giving up.

TALEV: She is not concerned that she will be found to be defamatory in this case.

But like, look, if this is about publicity, hey, guess what, it's more publicity. And it's interesting, I think, obviously, like, that video only scratches the surface. She has perpetuated a number of basically absurd conspiracy theories about Mrs. Macron and her history.

HILL: Yes.

TALEV: But Candace Owens has needed a new platform after losing her previous platform, is seeking ways to get publicity. The coverage of this is driving further publicity. And the Macrons have had limited success in France at using the court system there to bat back conspiracy theories. There is something for both the Macrons and Candace Owens in this.

HILL: Yes. It is fascinating to me because, you know, the United States is certainly seen as a fairly litigious country, if you will, in terms of -- of things being filed. The fact that they did file this lawsuit, I do think is fascinating.

[07:00:01]

KOH: Yes, and, look, there's a lot of exciting things about independent media. This is the clear downside, right? There's no independent fact checking. It's just a desperate attempt for clicks and retweets that are seductive, but at the end of the day is not helpful for anybody.

HILL: All right, you have the last 20 seconds.

ALLEN: Yes. Well, you know, of course, Candace Owens is entitled to her opinion, but I do think it's unfortunate. I think she's actually isolated many conservatives with a lot of conspiracy theories in recent years. But clearly this lawsuit is just fueling her fire.

HILL: Yes, and we'll continue to watch for it.

Nice to have all of you here in the studio this morning. Thanks so much to all of you for joining us at home as well. I'm Erica Hill. "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.