Return to Transcripts main page
CNN This Morning
Jillian Snider is Interviewed about the Shooting in Pennsylvania; Trump to Designate Antifa as Terrorist; Julie Rovner is Interviewed about the Vaccine Advisory Committee; Harris New Book. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired September 18, 2025 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:30:00]
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Going to do the trick. You need a prosecutor.
But you're right, Mike, I mean, you've lived this, and there's a lot in here about what an imposition and how much -- look, we've had runaway prosecutors. Ken Starr -- I have a chapter in this book where I talk to Bill Clinton's team, his White House team, and Ken Starr. Ken Starr passed away, but his number two, a guy named Saul Wisenberg.
Ken Starr ran wild. And there's an important lesson to draw from that. I mean I have a moment in this book where Bill Clinton's team hears the name Monica Lewinsky for the first time. They hear "The Washington Post" is going to report. Ken Starr was looking at Whitewater, a bunch of real estate deals, for four years, getting really nowhere towards the Clintons.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Right.
HONIG: And they hear "The Washington Post" is going to run this story about Monica Lewinsky. And David Kendall, who's Clinton's lawyer, tells me he said, the famous words, "who the hell is Monica Lewinsky?" Well, he found out. And he said, that can't be right. There's -- Ken Starr's way out of his lane here. He's in this lane. Now he's going to go into this.
CORNISH: But he had the power.
HONIG: And he -- he was granted the power.
CORNISH: So, the question --
HONIG: By the way, by -- by courts and Janet Reno. And then he went nuts with it.
Yes.
CORNISH: One more thing before I -- I let you go on this topic. Is the model broken?
HONIG: Yes. CORNISH: So, first, you're saying it's a reporters dream? It is actually not a reporter's dream to be mired in partizan attacks over what is supposed to be in a political investigation.
HONIG: Having covered --
CORNISH: And so, you have the feeling now, certainly by the public, of, like, calling a special counsel doesn't mean something has gone wrong. It means the political party in power somehow has the upper hand and can call for it.
HONIG: Right.
CORNISH: I'm not saying that's how it works. I'm saying it's -- the well is fully poisoned at this point.
HONIG: I agree with you. Yes.
CORNISH: So, why are you saying we should make it semi-permanent?
HONIG: So -- and that -- this is why I lay out in the final chapter of my proposal for moving forward. Look, I do not agree with, let's just throw our hands up and say it's broken and that's that. We're never going to look at a president again. We're going to leave ourselves to have Jim Comey's of the world come in with no rules and just make declarations. I mean, I used the Jim Comey -- the failure to appoint a special counsel. That's what happens when you don't, you get runaway FBI or law enforcement like Jim Comey on the eve of the 2016 election.
I won't go through all the details, but I want -- I propose a system where it's a presidentially nominated Senate, congressionally confirmed person, like the FBI director, who serves a set number of years, could be five or ten, that carries across presidential administrations. You're not going to get someone through that process unless they have bipartisan or non-partisan credentials. There are people who could be up to that. And that person needs to have a staff and support. So, it's not like Ken Starr, go get Bill Clinton, or something like that.
CORNISH: Yes. OK.
HONIG: So, it's more focused and it'll work in the future.
CORNISH: We will (INAUDIBLE) this.
HONIG: No. Yes.
CORNISH: Yes, you -- no, it's nice to have a book with an actual solution at the end.
HONIG: Thank you.
CORNISH: So, I'm here for it.
HONIG: You can't just leave people with nothing.
CORNISH: Exactly.
HONIG: Yes.
CORNISH: The book is called, "When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President, from Nixon to Trump."
We're going to have more from the group chat ahead.
And also on CNN THIS MORNING, President Trump claiming he'll designate Antifa a major terrorist organization. So, who could he actually target?
Plus, a tragedy in rural Pennsylvania. Five police officers shot, three of them killed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got past the barn, I saw -- I heard gunshots. I just saw a lot of chaos and saw some bodies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:37:32]
CORNISH: It is 6:36 here on the East Coast. Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me on CNN THIS MORNING.
And here's what's happening right now.
ABC has pulled the late night -- the late night show "Jimmy Kimmel Live" off the air indefinitely following pressure from the Trump administration. The network's decision comes after the comedian's remarks on Monday about MAGA's response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
And a high-stakes meeting underway for President Trump and British Prime Minister Keir Starmer. On the agenda, the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, as well as trade. The two will hold a news conference later today before the president leaves for Washington.
And President Trump and several senior members of his administration are expected to speak at Charlie Kirk's memorial service on Sunday. Kirk's widow, Erika, is also planning to deliver remarks. The memorial will be held at the 63,000-seat State Farm Stadium in Glendale, Arizona.
And two Pennsylvania police officers are fighting for their lives in the hospital right now. Three of their colleagues were shot and killed outside a home in York County. The suspect was also fatally shot at the scene by police. They were responding to what officials called a domestic related incident. Thirty-seven law enforcement officers have been killed in the line of duty so far this year. That's according to the FBI. Now, the governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, met with the families
of the officers and made this plea to the public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): This kind of violence isn't OK.
We need to do better as a society. We need to help the people who think that picking up a gun, picking up a weapon is the answer to resolving disputes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now, Jillian Snider, resident senior fellow at the R Street Institute.
We just heard there the governor talking about violence. Some of our reporting here at CNN indicates that the suspect was somehow lying in wait when the officers arrived, that there may have been an attempt to target them. Help me understand this in the context of what we heard from officials, that this was a domestic-related incident.
JILLIAN SNIDER, RESIDENT SENIOR FELLOW, R STREET INSTITUTE: Good morning.
So, when you have a domestic-related incident, generally that means that there was some form of relationship between both the suspect and the victim. Whether they were married, they were dating, they had any intimate partner relationship, law enforcement would automatically designate that domestic because that actually requires additional reporting if you go to a call for service there.
[06:40:03]
If there was ever an assault, you would do not only a complaint report, but you would also file, in most states, a domestic incident report.
In this situation, what we're hearing is, there was a previous relationship between the gunman and the woman who lived in that home. And then she reported to see him in the cornfield outside the home on Tuesday, prompting her to call 911. These officers were now going to issue an arrest warrant and an order of protection.
CORNISH: How unusual is this kind -- this level of violence in this kind of case?
SNIDER: Domestic violence calls are by nature very emotional, and they can often go volatile. I know when I was a was a police officer, domestic calls are one of the things that you can't often prepare for because you don't know what you're walking into. Is -- was there violence? Was there just a verbal dispute? What is the headset and mindset of both the victim and the suspect? So, police officers generally go there on higher alert because they're not often knowing what they're going to see.
CORNISH: Lastly, you've been an officer with NYPD. What are these moments like for departments?
SNIDER: So, obviously, officers across the country, we feel, when an officer is killed or injured in the line of duty, we all feel it. And community members should feel it as well, because officers go out there every day and risk their lives to protect the public. But what we need to see from this is, we need to understand, and we know an investigation is moving forward to understand what happened and how this -- this guy got in the cornfield and how the officers were, you know, shot at.
But this needs -- we need to focus on officer wellness, officer resources, officer training. We need to provide departments with units that specialize in this. And that's something that the NYPD always had. When I was assigned to execute a warrant, an arrest warrant or a search warrant, we were always with emergency services units who would take the door so that we were behind them, protected and shielded, so that we could go in and do our job. And we need to focus on that right now.
CORNISH: Jillian Snider, thank you for your insight. Appreciate it.
SNIDER: Thank you.
CORNISH: So, the White House is designating the anti-fascism movement, known as Antifa, as a terrorist organization. President Trump made the announcement in a social media post, calling the group "a major terrorist organization." He also wants to go after anyone who funds Antifa. It remains unclear how his administration would do that. Antifa is not an official organization, meaning there's -- where there's not a leader and headquarters that isn't stopping the president, who signaled that he might go further.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Antifa is terrible. I know this.
REPORTER: Are there other groups that you can think of?
TRUMP: There are other groups. Yes, there are other groups. We have some pretty radical groups. And they got away with murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: The group chat is back.
Elie, starting with you again, just for this legal definition. There are ways you can decide this organization is a domestic terror group. This is not. Prioritize their prosecution. Antifa, though, I've just been hearing about for years, this kind of amorphous concept. So, how would this work?
HONIG: So, the technical definition of domestic terror organization is contained in the law books. If you -- if you do a search, you will find the definition of what a domestic terrorism organization is. We can have a conversation about whether Antifa meets that or not. I'm sure we will in a moment.
But legally, and this is strange, it gives the federal government no actual additional powers. And that's in contrast to a foreign terrorist organization.
CORNISH: Right.
HONIG: If you designate ISIS or al Qaeda --
CORNISH: Or Venezuela?
HONIG: Well, whatever it may be.
CORNISH: Yes.
HONIG: Whatever one made (INAUDIBLE), that actually does give prosecutors a better ability to surveil them, to get financial information about them. There's actually crimes for material support to a foreign organization. But domestic, it's a symbolic statement.
Now, the question, I think, is, what is this going to open the door to Trump because you can always --
CORNISH: Yes, and that's what we're hearing people talk about.
HONIG: Yes, you can always tell your DOJ, I want you to prioritize this type of thing, or that type of thing.
So, it's a little bit of theater, but I think it could carry real consequences.
CORNISH: Why does that theater matter in this moment, guys?
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, I think -- first of all, I -- they've got a logo, so they've got to be an organization. You put the flag up.
CORNISH: Where'd that logo come from?
DUBKE: I don't know, but they've got to be an organization.
I think what this comes from is, this is now putting -- this is the Trump administration, starting to lay out what was discussed and promised after the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
But we've got to go back to the Biden administration and their national strategy to combat domestic terrorism.
CORNISH: Yes.
DUBKE: They got a lot of pressure in 2021 when they set this up by the ACLU and others. And I think this is the Trump administration taking the next logical step after the Biden administration has designated that there is a domestic terrorism problem.
Now, what I know about it is, there's not a lot of legal standing domestically to go after these groups (INAUDIBLE).
CORNISH: Yes. Let me let Meghan jump in there.
MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF MESSAGE PLANNING: But also, how do you say who's an Antifa and who's not? So, if I say that the president is a fascist, am I now an Antifa? Like, I don't -- I don't -- I don't see the -- how do you -- how do you do that? So, now you're going to have a lot of --
DUBKE: (INAUDIBLE).
[06:45:00]
HAYS: Coming for you.
CORNISH: We're going to roll a flag over to you, Meghan.
HAYS: I know. What if I -- hey, dudes (ph), I have a leader.
CORNISH: Yes, but the implications --
HAYS: But, I mean, how do you decide that? And then you're going to have a bunch of people who have been charged, and ruin them financially because you've now charged them with things that they may or may not be a part of. It's sort of like white supremacist. How do you decide who is a white supremacist and who is not?
The people who marched in Charlottesville, they didn't all get marched into court and -- that's -- it's just not how it works. So, I just -- it's a little amorphous of how you decide who is this and who is not. And it makes it very subjective to the president and the DOJ, who is very political, who does do a lot of things for theater.
CORNISH: Is this related to the free speech issue or not? I don't want to jam those things together, but --
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Well, that's the question I have, where does the line cross between, you know, somebody who supposedly, according to the White House, conducting nefarious political activity that leads to violence, and the First Amendment. Christopher Wray, the former FBI director, said that Antifa was not an organization. It was an ideology. It was, therefore, very hard to crack down on Antifa.
But I think it's somewhat ironic that the president is sitting in Windsor Castle overnight issuing edicts which some people might see as non-constitutional infringing the Constitution and the First Amendment, which all arose from a revolt against the king, whose house he was sitting in, 250 years ago.
CORNISH: OK, you guys, we have a little more to talk about. I want you guys to stick around.
Next on CNN THIS MORNING, RFK Jr.'s hand-picked advisory committee meets today to decide vaccine policy for your family.
Plus, why Kamala Harris says she didn't go with her top choice for a running mate last fall.
And, of course, more from this group chat, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:50:46]
CORNISH: The CDC's newly overhauled vaccine advisory committee meets today. Health Secretary RFK Jr. has added 13 people to that panel after firing all 17 original members. So, they'll consider policies like who should get the fall Covid-19 booster shot, whether babies should get the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth. All this after former CDC Director Susan Monarez says she got fired for refusing to make sweeping changes at the agency. That includes a directive to run all CDC policy and personnel decisions through Kennedy and the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SUSAN MONAREZ, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Secretary Kennedy told me he could not trust me. I had refused to commit to approving vaccine recommendations without evidence, fire career officials without cause, or resign, and I had shared my concerns with this committee.
I was fired for holding the line on scientific integrity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Monarez also says disagreements over child vaccine policies led to her firing. Listen to this heated exchange between Monarez and Kentucky Senator Rand Paul.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): The burden is upon you and the people you wouldn't fire to prove to us that we need to give our six-month-old a Covid vaccine, and that we need to give our one-day-old a Hepatitis B vaccine. That's what the debate ought to be about. Not whether all vaccines are good or whether we live in "Alice in Wonderland."
DR. SUSAN MONAREZ, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: I actually agree with you. And I was open to the science. I just would not pre-commit to approving all the ACIP recommendations without the science.
PAUL: Untrue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now, Julie Rovner, chief Washington correspondent at Kaiser Family Health News.
Julie, just for us to understand, I was wondering, who actually decides our vaccine policy now, which "The New York Times" was as well. And they needed more -- more space to do it. So, tell me about this board. What are they looking at specifically? JULIE ROVNER, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, KAISER HEALTH NEWS: So, obviously, the buck stops with presidential appointees. So, really, RFK Jr. is the final world. And, beyond that, the head of the CDC, of which there isn't one at the moment. There's an acting director. But this is a really important advisory committee that looks at the science. That's their job. It's usually made up of experts in vaccine policy, pediatricians, family doctors, immunologists. And they recommend to the head of the CDC who should get vaccines. And those recommendations, once they're ratified by the head of the CDC, which is usually fairly routine, then apply to all kinds of things, like, you know, who can get these vaccines for children under the big federal program that provides about half the vaccines in the United States, which vaccines insurers are going to pay for, and how easy it is to get at your pharmacy, which we're already discovering when the ACIP has not acted yet can be different in different states.
CORNISH: I want to talk about what's at stake when I look at, for instance, the Hep B vaccine. This going into effect to be given to newborns really only happened in the -- in the early '90s, correct?
ROVNER: That's true.
CORNISH: So, there has always been a kind of debate about, is this appropriate? And I know the board is thinking of maybe just pushing that age to four years old. So, is this actually an effort by a lot of scientists to reevaluate some of these conversations?
ROVNER: It is, although there's no science that says you should push the Hep B vaccine to four years old. The reason it's given at birth is in case the mother is infected. And, you know, they say, yes, pregnant women are generally tested, but they're tested early in pregnancy, may have gotten infected between the time they were tested and the time they give birth. That Hepatitis B passed to a newborn can cause enormous lifelong problems.
The chairman of the committee, Senator Cassidy, who happens to be a liver specialist, gave a rather impassioned speech at the -- at the end of the hearing, talking about how they -- because they -- they're now giving this vaccine at birth, and parents can refuse it if they want, but because most children now get it at birth, they've reduced that -- that parent to child transmission to de minimis numbers. And it used to be, you know, a fairly significant number, causing a lot of disease and death.
CORNISH: Now, I know this is growing more confusing for parents, Julie. I hope we can have you back. Thank you.
[06:55:03]
ROVNER: Any time.
CORNISH: So, I want to talk now about a big reveal from former Vice President Kamala Harris. It turns out Governor Tim Walz was not her first choice for a running mate. Her top pick was Pete Buttigieg. But she thought it was too risky for a black woman to run with a gay man. Now, this comes from a new excerpt from her upcoming book, "107 Days,"
published in "The Atlantic." There she wrote, "we were already asking a lot of America to accept a woman, a black woman, a black woman married to a Jewish man. Part of me wanted to say, screw it, let's just do it. But knowing what was at stake, it was too big of a risk."
The group chat is back.
Meghan, I want to start with you because, honestly, is this in the group chats for Democratic consultants or are people over this election?
HAYS: I think people are over this election. I know that a lot of people don't want to talk about this. I think most Democrats would want people talking about how we're going to fight back over Donald Trump and moving to '26. But again, she has the ability to write her narrative, so I want to respect that.
But I -- I don't disagree with what she's saying. I don't think that, at the time, we are ready. And I don't think with 107 days, picking someone who could be a little bit controversial, where a lot of people would have questions about it is -- was the right move for her to do.
CORNISH: But maybe if we're thinking about it as lessons learned, the thing everyone is talking about at that time, I remember at the DNC, were all of the reasons why someone wouldn't vote for a certain person. You can't pick Shapiro because x, you can't pick Buttigieg because y. It was like, a process of elimination rather than celebration.
HONIG: It strikes me as a failure by Kamala Harris because --
CORNISH: Why her?
HONIG: Because she -- because she said, here's -- the guy I want, my top choice is Pete Buttigieg. And somewhere lower on that list is Tim Walz. And I'm going to elevate the lower guy because he's straight, because the top guy is gay.
CORNISH: Well, he also, at the time, was making --
DUBKE: Was safe.
CORNISH: Yes, exactly.
DUBKE: Was safe.
HAYS: Yes, but --
HONIG: Was safe, but safe -- she -- she lost. She got a weaker VP.
DUBKE: Exactly.
HONIG: Pete Buttigieg would have been way better than Tim Walz.
DUBKE: Exactly. That's the lesson learned in Tim Walz. HAYS: But Democrats always fall into identity politics.
HONIG: Exactly. Yes.
HAYS: That is our biggest fault right there, to fall into identity politics.
CORNISH: And in that case the identity was man wearing a hunting hat.
HAYS: Yes.
HONIG: Right. Right. Right.
DUBKE: Yes.
CORNISH: Right.
HAYS: I mean this is -- like -- like -- but if you -- but they needed --
DUBKE: Yes, Elmer Fudd, but, yes.
HAYS: Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan are these white men that go hunting. So, she picked someone she thought would appeal to those folks, which she needed to win. And Democrats -- this is our biggest sin in Democratic politics, that we play to identity politics.
HONIG: Just pick the best guy (INAUDIBLE) --
CORNISH: However, I think you -- maybe just being a black voter, I am sort of familiar with the kind of cynicism that says, well, maybe Americans are not ready to vote for x. That's something we saw leading up to the Obama election.
COLLINSON: You know what I thought was interesting is, they didn't want to take a risk. They were running a campaign saying that Donald Trump is the greatest threat to democracy in the history of the United States, but they don't want to take a risk. It was a very risk-free campaign in many ways.
The reason she said she liked Buttigieg was because he was able to articulate very sharp, snappy messages. That was the exact problem with her campaign. She wasn't able to do that.
CORNISH: Right.
COLLINSON: Especially on the economic issue.
CORNISH: And to under -- yes.
COLLINSON: So, he may have been able to provide the language that would have actually helped her on that.
CORNISH: Language, but also he's willing to go to the places. I feel like Pete Buttigieg will be the opening of an envelope. Like, he will go and sit and talk and have a one-on-one in the ways that in recent days we've been praising.
HONIG: I think -- look, I think he's extremely formidable. What I'm interested in, Meghan, what's the vibe in the Democratic Party? Is he -- is he interested in '28? Are -- are -- does -- do the party powers that be want him up top in '28?
HAYS: I don't think anybody knows who we want until after the midterms. But -- but Pete is definitely interested in '28. He's doing things. He has a team in place. He's been going to Iowa. He's been going to South Carolina. I believe he went to South Carolina. So, they've been doing things that have put him in a place to run. But so have a lot of other candidates. So it will be really interesting.
I think that '28 is going to be a lot like '20, where you have 20 Democrats running for president.
CORNISH: Yes, but let's hope people figure it out a little earlier than --
HAYS: Yes, that's right.
CORNISH: Let's not do it in 107 days, just for my own mental health.
HAYS: That's right.
CORNISH: I want to talk about our group chats. I'm going to start with Stephen. What are people talking about?
COLLINSON: I'm waiting to see which British hack spoils the party at the press conference at Chequers and asks President Trump about the Epstein issue, because the British prime minister has exactly the same issue.
CORNISH: Yes.
COLLINSON: He was forced to fire his ambassador over the Epstein issue. So, that's going to be something that is going to sweep away, I think, all the good feelings of the banquet last night.
CORNISH: OK. Mike, what about you? What's in your chat?
DUBKE: It's Thursday morning, which means it's Thursday night football tonight. And as soon as I leave here, I'm heading to the airport to go up to Buffalo.
CORNISH: Where's your --
DUBKE: Oh, I'm here.
CORNISH: Oh, there is. You got the pin. You got the pin.
DUBKE: Our group chat is, after the Bills demolished the fish, also known as the Dolphins, tonight, does Mike McDaniel get fired?
CORNISH: Yes. Yes. I don't know what any of that means.
HAYS: Yes.
CORNISH: But I'm excited.
DUBKE: But that's my group chat.
CORNISH: That's the group chat.
DUBKE: Yes.
CORNISH: Audie has left the chat.
Meghan, what's going on for you?
HAYS: Well, one thing that I was looking for today is, where are these Republicans that are going to speak out against free speech that are smaller government, free speech? Are they going to come out today and have more stronger stances from those (INAUDIBLE) --
CORNISH: A lot of screenshots of the FCC chairman's old tweets about this.
And, Elie, I'm saving the last for you --
[07:00:00]
HONIG: Yes, please.
CORNISH: But I know what's in your group chat. Give me that book.
HONIG: Oh, thank you.
CORNISH: Let me see that book. The book is "When you Come at the King."
HONIG: This is the best.
CORNISH: OK, that is what is in Elie's group chat. Don't let him tell you different.
I want to thank you guys for being here because we covered a lot of ground. We talked about a lot of things, honestly, with good faith and humor, and I appreciate it.
Thank you for waking up with us. I know there's a lot of places you could spend your time, and I'm glad you're spending it with us.
"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now. I'm Audie Cornish, and I'll see you tomorrow.
