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Tonight: U.S. Government Shuts Down if No Deal Reached; More Details Emerging about Killer at LDS Church; Soon: Trump to Attend Gathering of Senior Military Officers. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired September 30, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:15]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The shutdown showdown. What's at stake for you as the clock ticks down? CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We're headed to a shutdown, because the Democrats won't do the right thing.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): It's up to the Republicans whether they want to shut down or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Can Republicans and Democrats ever get on the same page?

Reporting to Quantico. The highest-level U.S. military officers back stateside? Is this really just for a speech about the warrior ethos?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRIS JOHNS, BURTON CITY COUNCIL CANDIDATE: There is nothing that was indicative of anger or a potential violent act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: As investigators work to find out why a gunman attacked a Michigan church, we're learning about concerning comments he made to a local politician just days before.

President Trump's roadmap for peace in Gaza. Israel is on board, but will Hamas agree?

Two storms brewing in the Atlantic posing a potential double threat to the East Coast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is clearing the way for Andrew Cuomo, because Donald Trump knows that Andrew Cuomo will clear the way for Trump's agenda. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN sits down with New York mayoral candidate Zohran Mamdani. What he had to say about Trump's fingerprints on the race.

Six a.m. here on the East Coast. All eyes on the Capitol today. A beautiful look there. Here we are in Washington, D.C. Going to be a little bit of a busy day ahead of the shutdown deadline.

Good morning. Thank you for starting your day with us. I'm Erica Hill, in today for Audie Cornish.

And it is, of course, all eyes on the Capitol, because we're now just hours away from a shutdown of the federal government. That deadline, midnight tonight, and there's no deal in sight to avoid it.

Top party leaders gathering at the White House for talks on Monday afternoon. Republicans want a short-term deal which would keep the government open into November. Democrats want Obamacare subsidies, which are set to expire at the end of the year, to be extended, warning otherwise, healthcare costs will soar for millions of Americans.

There does seem to be one area of agreement, though. That's blaming the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: It's in the president's hands whether to avoid a shutdown or not. He has to convince the Republican leaders.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): If the government shuts down, it's because Republicans have decided to shut the government down rather than address the healthcare crisis that they've created.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): This is purely and simply hostage taking on the -- on behalf of the Democrats.

VANCE: I think we're headed to a shutdown, because the Democrats won't do the right thing. I hope they change their mind, but we're going to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: President Trump's response to Democratic leaders? Well, this A.I.-generated video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: Look, guys. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Nobody likes Democrats anymore. We have no voters left, because of all of our woke trans (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Not even black people want to vote for us anymore. Even Latinos hate us.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HILL: And so there we are on a Tuesday morning. Joining me now in the group chat, Jeff Zeleny, CNN chief national affairs correspondent; Chuck Rocha, Democratic strategist and former senior adviser to the Bernie Sanders presidential campaigns; and Brian Lanza, senior adviser to the Trump 2024 campaign.

Gentlemen, nice to see you all this morning. So, Jeff, in terms of where we stand this morning, what came out of those talks yesterday? Is there any hope at avoiding a government shutdown at 6 a.m. today?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erica, good morning.

At 6 a.m. No, there's not. I mean, the reality here is that this is headed toward a shutdown. The Senate will have votes this evening. The House is not in Washington.

And that's what's actually sort of unusual about this. We've seen a lot of shutdowns in Washington over the years. The last one, of course, being 2018.

I can't recall one where the -- one of the chambers has been out. And the House is out, so they can't vote at all.

So, look, the Senate is going to perhaps take a vote of some kind. Democrats wanted there to be a vote on health care. Republicans, of course, don't want to be on the record on that.

So, look, the bottom line is the shutdown is almost certain to happen. A bigger question is how do they get out of this?

HILL: Yes.

ZELENY: And that's what neither side knows.

And going into a shutdown, if it's a negotiating ploy, they seldom work, actually. So, Republicans control all branches of government. But Democrats, they think they have leverage. I'm not really sure how much there is. But the question how they get out is very much an open one that I really don't know.

HILL: Yes. We'll have -- well, maybe we can tackle that and solve that this morning.

ZELENY: Right. Maybe these guys know.

HILL: That would be something. We'll pass it along. Maybe you two could figure that out.

Before we get there, though, we have to get to the shutdown first.

[06:05:03]

When we look at where things stand, some comments from John Fetterman getting a lot of attention overnight. I just want to play what he had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): Right now, it's like you're running the risk of plunging our nation into chaos. Millions and millions of lives will be upended. And now that's the kind of message -- what kind of message does that send to our -- our country and to our allies and to our enemies?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:05:26]

HILL: So, Chuck, there's -- there's that from the senator and also, to Jeff's point, though, what comes after, right, if we get there. Can Democrats stay united at this point?

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think so. I think he's very much an outlier.

And to Jeff's point earlier, I would say the Democratic House members are here. They were called back by Jeffries. And so, they're here, whether -- they're not in session, though. Jeff's right.

So, this is a visual, because Democrats are desperate -- and I think smartly -- to blame Republicans. And Republicans, when my friend Brian talks, is going to blame us.

And that's -- who does the American people believe at the end of the day? That's going to be the big key here. And how long does this actually stay open?

If the government shutdown lasts a day or two, it's not really going to affect anybody. If this thing lags on for weeks or, God forbid, a month, then folks really start feeling it. And the first time somebody doesn't get a Social Security check, then it becomes a political thing that nobody's going to want to deal with.

HILL: It's already a political thing, right? I mean --

ROCHA: Even worse.

HILL: Yes.

ROCHA: Even worse. Let me just say, even worse.

HILL: Even worse. So, when we look at where things stand, J.D. Vance said, quote, "You don't use your policy disagreements as leverage in a government shutdown situation."

The president, who was then candidate Trump a year ago, posting on Truth Social at the time -- and this, of course, is about an election bill: "If Republicans in the House and Senate don't get absolute assurances on election security, they should, in no way, shape or form go forward with a continuing resolution on the budget," adding, "Don't let it happen. Close it down."

So don't use your policy disagreements. I mean, I guess this applies to all parties, unless of course, it's in your best interest.

When we look at where things stand right now, is there any reason left for Republicans to negotiate? They seem very clear. They want nothing to do with this.

BRIAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISOR TO TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: Yes. I mean, listen, it's not a hard argument for them to make. You know, the House already passed a clean C.R. That hasn't happened in a long time. By the way, the C.R. is Biden's budget.

So, we have Chuck Schumer saying it's outrageous that Democrats were not included in the budget negotiations. We're literally continuing to see out of the Biden budget. So, it's hard to hear that argument.

But at the end of the day, the Democrats adding these additional -- this $1.3 trillion into the negotiation process with the House that is hostage taking.

I mean, we could have a vote tomorrow on the clean C.R., and the government doesn't have to shut down. The Democrats are making the conscious decision to try to have this policy debate at this particular moment. History has shown when you have a policy debate in a government shutdown, you usually lose.

HILL: Does bringing layoffs into the equation help Republicans?

LANZA: It puts pressure. I mean, it puts pressure on the Democrats. It also -- you know, more importantly, it just shows how unreasonable their positions are. You're going to shut the government down for no reason other than a policy dispute, which historically has never been successful.

HILL: So, going back to the -- to Jeff's point of what happens next, right. Government shuts down. Do you believe there is a firm plan, Chuck, based on people that you're speaking with? If this does go well past a couple of days?

ROCHA: Washington, D.C., cares about two things on the Hill. They care about money, and they care about votes. When it starts affecting either one of those, you start seeing people move. And as it pushes closer to a deadline, it normally sees people move.

You're going to see two competing narratives on blame. There's one thing the American people know. They know the Republicans are in charge of everything in this town. When the Republicans have to explain how filibuster and 60 votes work, I think that they're losing.

When Democrats are talking about 200 million people's health care going up, I think they're winning.

HILL: Jeff, the cycle that we're in for the -- you talk about it depends on what people believe. What we do know is that people are not happy with Congress. No surprise. Have not been for some time.

But they're frustrated, too, by this constant back and forth. And frankly, the lack of real action in legislating that they're seeing. Are we stuck now, based on where we are as a country, based on what we're seeing, to, in terms of gerrymandering? Are we stuck in this shutdown showdown cycle for the foreseeable future?

ZELENY: I mean, probably, unless there's a wider majority in Congress.

But I think one of the things that's different about this, and the country is going to learn a lot about rising healthcare subsidies. That is one thing that worries Republicans going into the midterm elections next year.

Once people are opening their healthcare premiums in a couple of months and seeing, wow, these are really going up because of the expiration of the Obamacare subsidies. So, that's what's slightly different about this shutdown.

Shutdowns are always about something. And it's of course, it's about government dysfunction and things. But this one is about healthcare, which does worry some moderate Republicans in these seats, as well.

But to answer your question, yes, this is a stuck government. I mean, the fact that the -- the meeting yesterday with the president and the top congressional leaders was the first time they've sat down together. I also can't recall that. Back in Trump's first term, the meetings happened much earlier. I think in the -- the opening couple of weeks.

So, I think that sort of says all you need to know here: that there's no real interest at the White House to meet with Congress.

And what's also different is they're exerting their presidential authority. The head of the OMB, Russ Vought, he wants this shutdown, in some respects, to sort of clean out more of the government. So, that is also different about this shutdown.

[06:10:03]

HILL: Yes. Absolutely is. Thank you all very much. Much more to come, of course, ahead.

Tonight on THE SOURCE, as well. Important to note as that clock does tick down to a possible government shutdown. House speaker Mike Johnson will be Kaitlan's guest. That's tonight at 9 p.m. right here on CNN.

Just ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, the search for a motive in the Michigan church attack. What investigators are learning about the erratic behavior of the suspect in the weeks prior.

Plus, the dramatic shift in American support for Israel.

And a distraction or a teaching tool? Democratic Congressman Chris DeLuzio tackling smartphones in schools. He will join us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The app that was on my phone was more so a distraction than anything for me personally and for everyone, I guess of my peers, as well. Because it wasn't really --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[06:15:26]

HILL: This morning, the missing victims now all accounted for in that devastating Michigan church attack. Investigators now working to determine a motive.

A key clue does seem to be emerging about the man behind the attack. He is an Iraq War veteran. Of course, rammed his car into the church of the of Jesus Christ of the -- of Latter-Day Saints there in Michigan, shooting, killing four people ultimately, and then setting the building on fire.

A local city council candidate telling CNN he spoke with the man a week before the shooting and that his hatred for the LDS church was clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: His kind of responses back to his own questions were just very negative regarding the Church of Latter-Day Saints. He had just made statements in regarding to, you know, he was asking questions about church leaders and the history. And, you know, the books of the Mormon Bible that are in addition to, you know, the traditional Bible. And he just expressed his displeasure at that.

And ultimately, one of his final statements to me were that Mormons are the anti-Christ. And he said that several times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The shooter's political affiliation also emerging, perhaps. This is an image of a Trump-Vance sign on a fence outside his house. There is also this photo of him in 2019 wearing a Trump shirt.

Joining me now from Grand Blanc, Michigan, CNN correspondent Michael Yoshida, who's been covering these developments for us.

What more do we know this morning?

MICHAEL YOSHIDA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Erica.

You talk about maybe a potential indication of a motive starting to emerge. All of that work continuing overnight and into this morning.

And you can see, still, a very heavy police presence here in Grand Blanc Township, Michigan. The road leading up to where this deadly church shooting and fire happened remains blocked off.

And this as we're still working to figure out from investigators what led that gunman on a Sunday morning to ram his truck into that church just 20 minutes into the service, when hundreds were gathered inside; to open fire; and then to eventually set that church on fire.

You talked about that interview with that city council candidate, the conversations he had. We know the White House spoke yesterday, the press secretary talking about conversations she had had with the FBI director and how they were saying that maybe -- maybe some sort of religious hatred was at play here.

Again, so many questions. That main one being what led this suspected shooter, 40-year-old Thomas Jacob Sanford, to carry out this crime?

You mentioned we do have some details on his background. An outdoorsman, an Iraq War veteran. We're told by a Marine Corps spokesperson that he had served from about 2004 to 2008 and had been awarded several medals.

We also know that he had been arrested several times in his past, including for burglary and OWI.

So, still a big piece missing here: what led him to do this horrific crime here in this small community? And as that question remains unanswered, we're starting, though, to learn more about the victims here.

We know some of those who were injured, ages 6 to 78, those who were inside the church when this all carried out. Obviously, this community rallying together now as they try to find healing and wait for that answer as to what led to this deadly violence here in this community -- Erica.

HILL: Michael, appreciate it. Thank you.

Just ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, a pep rally or a pledge of loyalty? in just a few hours, hundreds of America's top military brass will meet with the commander in chief.

Plus, YouTube is paying up after suspending President Trump from the platform.

And good morning, New York City. There we go. I promise you, the sun is coming up. It's going to happen. A beautiful shot there of the Big Apple.

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[06:23:28]

HILL: This morning, hundreds of the nation's top military leaders set to meet in person with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. And of course, now we're learning, President Trump.

That meeting is being described as a pep rally for warrior ethos. In an interview with NBC, the president said the focus is, quote, "talking about how well we're doing militarily, talking about being in great shape, talking about a lot of good, positive things."

A defense official also telling CNN officers who cannot attend needed to give a very strong reason for that, and that is raising some concerns.

One former military leader comparing this to Hitler summoning generals to pledge personal loyalty, to which Hegseth replied, "Cool story, General."

Joining me now to discuss, Colonel Cedric Leighton, CNN military analyst.

I'd love to get your reaction just initially to that response from the secretary of defense to Ben Hodges pointing out, Hey, this is eerily similar -- in his view, right? -- to what we saw.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, yes. Very interesting response by Secretary Hegseth, because the historical precedent of the Hitler oath, of course, showed that the German military, back at that time, was being moved from an institution that was loyal to the Constitution of the country to personal loyalty.

And this is, you know, a very important point, a historical precedent that people look at. And when they point out the more ominous aspects of the Trump administration, at least in their view, they're looking at that. And they're comparing those kinds of things.

Now, that that comparison can be, you know, fraught with a lot of, you know, issues because, you know, we're -- we're not in the same category as the Weimar Republic was or -- or as Hitler's Germany.

[06:25:08]

But there's definitely an issue with the United States moving toward a more domestically oriented posture for the military. And that could mean an integration of the military more with law enforcement.

And that's something that the military really doesn't do. And quite frankly, it's illegal under current law to do that.

HILL: Right, which is fascinating. The fact that this is being billed by the administration as a pep rally for the warrior ethos, it's an interesting way to do it, to make hundreds of top military brass come to Virginia for that.

If this is about instilling the warrior ethos, I know you said that's great, but typically, that's the job of a commander.

LEIGHTON: Yes, a commander in the field.

HILL: Yes.

LEIGHTON: And, you know, at a more tactical level, this is what a brigade or a battalion commander would do. You know, or a squadron commander in the Air Force.

So, those are the kinds of things that, you know, are kind of interesting, because it seems as if the secretary is looking -- at least initially, was looking at this from a pep rally standpoint, if that's, in fact, what's happening. He's looking at this from a very tactical perspective.

And a very tactical perspective is not what he should be looking at these things with. He needs to look at this from a very strategic perspective. He needs to not only look at this from how are we going to employ our forces, but what are the resources for our forces? And, you know, very big-picture type things.

Let the commanders --

HILL: The work of it.

LEIGHTON: Exactly.

HILL: Yes.

LEIGHTON: How is this going to work? Why are we doing these things? And what is the greater good coming out of this? And if you -- you know, if you do that, then you can create a strategy that will then work with that.

But the way they're doing things is based on a really tactical perspective. And that is something that is not helpful when you're sitting in a position like the secretary or the chairman of the joint chiefs or some position like that.

HILL: I was struck by some reporting in "The Washington Post" that came out last night about military leaders and their concerns when it comes to their understanding of the national defense strategy moving forward.

And in some cases, it may be a little bit backwards looking, ultimately, and limiting for the United States. Noting that -- that there was a growing sense of frustration. They consider it to be myopic, potentially irrelevant.

I know you've read that reporting, as well. When you hear that, when you see that, based on what we are learning, does it raise concerns for you?

LEIGHTON: Yes, absolutely, Erica. And one of the key problems is that, if you are focused on homeland defense type narrative, the adversaries also get a vote.

And the problem is that our adversaries will remain the same, regardless of what our national defense strategy says. We are still going to be confronting an expansionist China. We're going to be confronting a Russia that is trying to move forward in Ukraine. We're going to be looking at threats like North Korea.

And yes, there are transnational threats such as human trafficking, such as mass migration, which are things that are supposedly in the new national defense strategy.

The problem with those things is that they are pieces and parts of a larger picture. And you can't, for example, if you deal with human trafficking or mass migration, you can't do that just on a hemispheric basis, just in the Western hemisphere, which the strategy apparently is -- is looking at. It needs to be a global perspective, and you need a lot of allies to do that kind of work.

And to abandon alliances, move troops from, say, Europe back to the states, that is not going to be the way you confront these problems and deal with these issues.

And it really requires a whole-of-government approach. The national defense strategy needs to be integrated with the national security strategy. And that national security strategy, as well as the national defense strategy, need to be based on the realities that we're confronted with, not on some ideological view of what the world is supposed to be, in their view.

It needs to be based on the realities that we're dealing with, so we can actually confront those realities in a real and considerate way. And that's -- that's the key thing that -- that's missing here.

HILL: Colonel Leighton, always appreciate your insight and your expertise. Thank you.

LEIGHTON: Thank you so much, Erica.

HILL: Straight ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, a critical step toward ending the war in Gaza. President Trump says he has the deal to make it happen. Will Hamas, though, get on board?

Plus, twin storms churning up in the waters off the East Coast.

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[06:30:00]