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Dr. Jonathan Reiner Remembers Dick Cheney; Dick Cheney's Legacy. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired November 04, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Friend of his on a trip. How do you kind of square those two images, what people know versus kind of what you knew as a freshman who was coming up and looking up to him?

CHARLIE DENT (R), FORMER PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSMAN AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ASPEN INSTITUTE CONGRESSIONAL PROGRAM: Well, yes, look, he was a -- you know, he was a bit of a brawler, you know, politically speaking. You know, he didn't take well to what he felt was unfair criticism. And he might get in somebody's face. But, overall, he was a gentleman. He was a gentleman. He -- yes, he could, you know, be maybe known to an outburst if he felt like he was being slighted. But by and large, you know, I felt that he was a man that was, you know, really trying to do the public's business as best he could. And I realize that there are a lot of people who may have disagreed with his positions on issues like Iraq and others and how he handled detainees.

But, you know, but again, this man, you know, took his role seriously. He was capable. He was very competent. Everybody understood his abilities. And that's why they wanted him to be close, because he often exercised very good judgment. He was the guy in the room that was also, in many ways, a calming influence. And I thought that the -- you know, again, the people I know who interacted with him always came away, you know, somewhat awed by his -- by his grasp of all the issues and his ability to get things done.

CORNISH: I want to talk some about his political legacy. One is turning the vice presidency into a policy position and a rather aggressive one. I think some people who had accused him of being some sort of like puppet master to George W. Bush, it was response to how much power he did have. How did he change that job, for better and for worse?

DENT: Well, for better, he clearly elevated the position of vice presidency. He was, you know, a chief counselor to the president and almost acted as a chief operating officer for the government, helped move a lot of the levers of government. He was very -- you know, he wasn't -- he wasn't a ceremonial figure. He was doing things, making things happen. Now, I -- and people said, oh, he was running for president. He really wasn't running for president. But the president, George W. Bush, had great confidence in him, in his ability, like I said, just to get things done, to move the levers of government, to get the government to do what the president wanted it -- wanted him to do. And that's why Dick Cheney was formidable. And he -- again, he was

very deeply engaged on matters of public policy throughout that administration. Obviously, some people disagree with him. But nobody should ever have underestimated him. And so he did elevate the position of the vice presidency by doing so. Again, not a ceremonial figure at all. He was doing the work of government.

CORNISH: He also, I think, is known for what is, I think, believed to be the kind of neoconservative movement, of which there is a backlash now, right, in that Trump has been able to respond to people who did not want to be in so-called forever wars. He sort of oversaw that buildup of the post-9/11 national security kind of apparatus. What do you think is going to be sort of his legacy within that movement? Do you think we're going to see more neocons moving forward, or is his death also kind of coinciding with the end of that movement?

DENT: Yes, I think the neocon movement has run its course. And, of course, the -- we came to -- that whole issue came to a head at the time of the Iraq War, where many of the more traditional Republicans, I'll say from the George H.W. Bush era, you know, Brent Scowcroft and others, you know, urged caution and were opposed to invading Iraq. And then, of course, many of the neocons and Dick Cheney himself were very much proponents of it. And that really did create a divide within the Republican Party that you still feel to this day where Donald Trump has often tried to take a noninterventionist approach at times and is very critical of the neocons. And John Bolton's probably another example of the neocon movement.

But I do think that the neocon movement, its time has come and gone. I don't think there's a lot of appetite for it right now. And, you know, many I think now, since we learned that there were no weapons of mass destruction, that, you know, many people came to regret the Iraq War.

That said, that's part of Dick Cheney's legacy. But I think that shouldn't overshadow, you know, the enormous capability and the good things that he did while he was in office.

CORNISH: All right, Charlie, thank you so much for speaking with us. Charlie Dent, Republican. I'm sure we're going to hear from you today. And I'm sorry for the loss of someone that you knew with Dick Cheney.

OK, next we're going to talk with Jonathan Reiner. He is the doctor, and I believe cardiologist, who was also helping to manage the care for the former vice president.

Dr. Reiner, thank you so much for being with us.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Hi. Good morning, Audie.

CORNISH: First, I want to say, sorry for your loss. Obviously, you are a caretaker, but this is probably someone you got to know over time.

[06:35:05]

REINER: Oh, well, yes, to say the least. I've been the physician for Vice President Cheney since 1998. I was a -- I was a very, very young doctor when he became my patient. And I basically grew up with him as a -- as a -- as a physician.

So, yes, he's just, to say the very least, he was important to me.

CORNISH: He also was somebody who had many heart issues, right? Multiple heart attacks, multiple cardiovascular issues. Can you give us a sense what you're comfortable with sharing about some of the things he was dealing with?

REINER: So, he was a remarkable patient. Vice President Cheney had his first heart attack in 1978 when he was campaigning for his first House seat. He was only 37 years old. And when he had that heart attack, there was nothing that medicine really could do for people with heart attacks except hope they didn't die. And he survived that. And he went on to lead a vigorous life really in spite of very well established, very premature heart disease. And in many ways, he was emblematic of what medicine has been able to do over the last half century in terms of treating people with -- with coronary artery disease. And like, like a person, you know, driving down the road early in the -- early in the morning looking at red lights, you know, you know, down, down, down the road. Every time he approached one of these red lights because of his disease, medicine had just developed something that could help him. So, he led this really amazing, amazing life where he had every, every medical breakthrough.

CORNISH: Kind of advance, yes.

REINER: Became available to him at just the right time. Things like bypass surgery and coronary stents, you know, defibrillator, ventricular assist device and, ultimately, heart transplant were all being developed in sort of -- in parallel to his -- to his disease. And he was the most complicated patient I've ever cared for. And he happened to be the vice president of the United States.

CORNISH: Did he kind of run out of options towards the end? Was it something that there weren't any more advances to offer?

REINER: Well, he was 84 years old and -- and we all -- we all get to the end -- to the end of our own story.

I think the vice president was able to squeeze every, every ounce of juice from, you know, from his life. And I think he lived an extraordinarily full and vigorous life, despite having developed heart disease at a very, very young age. He was emblematic of what people with heart disease can aspire to do.

So, -- and what he also never really allowed to happen in his own life, he never really allowed the disease to dictate what he -- what he could do. My father used to say that it's one thing to have a disease. It's another thing entirely to let the disease have you. And Vice President Cheney never, never let his coronary artery and heart disease dictate the course of his life.

CORNISH: Can I ask what kind of patient he was given that he never slowed down politically?

REINER: He was the easiest patient. He never -- he never let politics or his office get in the way of taking -- of doing the right thing for his health. In the -- in really the first spring of the Bush-Cheney administration in March of 2020, he developed chest pain. And he called me early in the morning and said, you know, I'm having some chest pain, what do you think I should do? And I said, well, I think you're probably going to need a heart catheterization. And he said, OK, I'll see you in a couple of minutes. And I had to make a dozen phone calls to make this happen. And by the time I finished making these calls, he was in our emergency department. He had just basically handed his portfolio to an aide and said, I'm going to GW for a cath. Let's go.

He never let -- well, first of all, and he was also never concerned about what people knew about his heart disease. He was very open about it. He was the easiest patient, unbelievably compliant.

[06:40:02]

And I think that's one of the reasons why he was able to live such a -- such a long and full life. He was very involved in his health care, very compliant, asked great, great questions, made great decisions and he was a very, very easy patient. Incredibly easy.

CORNISH: You started with him when you were so young. I think you said 37. What do you think he taught you?

REINER: Oh, he taught me a lot. He taught me a lot about the value of a doctor/patient relationship. He placed an enormous amount of trust in the -- in the doctors and nurses that took care of him over the years. And trust is a very, very powerful thing. We -- and trust works both ways. But he -- that's what he taught me. He taught me the -- he taught me the power of trust.

CORNISH: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, he's a person who has been the caretaker for Dick Cheney, doing his medical support for the last couple of decades. I want to thank you for being with us. And I also want to offer my condolences. I'm sorry for your loss.

REINER: Thanks, Audie.

CORNISH: And again, when you come back, we're going to talk more today about this breaking news. The former vice president, Dick Cheney, has died at the age of 84.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:46:16]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CORNISH: If you're just following us, we're following breaking news. Former Vice President Dick Cheney has passed away at the age of 84. His family confirming to CNN in a statement that he died due to complications of pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease. He served under President George W. Bush for both of his terms. And Cheney was the most powerful vice president in the modern era, and also the chief architect of the war on terror.

We're going to leave it there for now. We're still doing some reporting on this.

But first I want to turn to the panel here to talk about the legacy of Dick Cheney, because I think we're still living with a lot of the things that he sort of expanded on during his term, whether that be an expansion of vice presidential power or how he moved in the security spaces.

Can I talk to you, Margaret Talev, what do you think in this moment?

MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, "AXIOS": Well, Audie, first of all, I just want to say, for anyone who just put on their TV, that interview that you just finished with Dr. Reiner, who had been Vice President Cheney's previous physician, I just found it incredibly moving because it humanized a political figure who, like, I just think so often, in covering politics and talking about national politics, it's easy to sort of caricature people or sum them up for what they're best known for. And that interview really did show the human side of a person.

CORNISH: Yes. And for people who missed it, Dr. Reiner had joined Cheney, who had multiple heart attacks over the decades. The doctor joined him when he was just 37 and had still been taking care of him up until this time. So, I understand what you're saying.

TALEV: But I think, you know, our current events have a way of changing history, even in real time. And if you'd asked most Americans 20 years ago or even ten years ago, how will Dick Cheney be remembered, they might say as an architect, key architect of the Iraq War, or they might say, as someone who really maximized vice presidential power.

But in recent years, he also emerged as this sort of answer to or counterpunch to President Trump. And going as far, again, as endorsing Kamala Harris in the last election, not because a conservative from Wyoming was aligned with the Biden and Harris team's agenda, but because he saw President Trump as such a threat to American democracy, saying he can never be trusted with power again.

I think in many ways you see the arc of the changes to the Republican Party from the time of Bush-Cheney --

CORNISH: Yes, very much so.

TALEV: To what the Republican Party represents and is led by today. And in some ways, what is -- what we now think of as the MAGA movement came in part as a backlash to the long-standing wars in Iraq and, to some extent, Afghanistan also, that came out of the Bush era.

So, there is this really important continuum, this, you know, fight for the identity of the Republican Party. And those Republicans who aligned much more with that traditional sort of Bush or Cheney agenda, you know, many of them, I don't -- there are probably other people on this panel can better speak to it, but the little bit -- CORNISH: Yes. Yes. We should come -- we should come back to Charlie for this, I think.

TALEV: Yes, out of the woods now. Yes.

CORNISH: And, Charlie, you mentioned having met him, having known him as you were coming up in politics. And I do know that one of the things he did that was unprecedented was kind of going back to The Hill, sitting in on those policy meetings, pushing things. Can you talk about your relationship with him and what you're going to remember.

DENT: Yes. What I'm going to remember is this is a man who liked to do the work. You know, when I say that, you know, there's some politicians who are show horses and some who are workhorses.

[06:50:00]

Dick Cheney was clearly a workhorse. I don't think he really enjoyed so much, you know, the backslapping side of politics, going to the public events and doing all the, you know, all the chicken dinners and all the things that politicians are known to do. He liked being in the room. He liked making decisions. He liked getting people to a point where they could, you know, get to -- get to yes in many ways to vote for things.

CORNISH: Yes.

DENT: But he was the guy putting things -- putting things together all the time. And that's why he was such an effective vice president. Because the president, George W. Bush, trusted him to help him run the government. That's what Cheney was doing. As I said earlier, he was a chief operating officer for the United States. George Bush was the CEO. Cheney was the COO, you know, who was making sure things were getting done every single day. And he liked doing that. He liked interacting with members of Congress. Certainly the Republican members. I know he had his detractors. But even his detractors had a lot of respect for him and his capabilities.

And by the way, before I say anything else, I got to just give condolences to his wife, Lynne, and daughters, Liz and Mary, and all their grandchildren. I'm sure they're devastated. He was a wonderful -- he was a wonderful father and grandfather. All the things, you know, on a personal level, I knew that about him. He was very deeply committed to his family and they adored him. And despite all the noise you hear in the public about Dick Cheney, Darth Vader and all that stuff, you know, he was a human being, and he was a, in many ways, a very good and decent and honorable man.

But we should always remember that this man really cared about this country. He was an institutionalist, a patriot and a -- and I'm going to miss him.

CORNISH: Chuck Rocha, I know this is going to be a complicated day for Democrats who, I think, of course, had always gone after Cheney for how he tried to justify the U.S.' entrance into the war in Iraq. Also, justifications around the use of torture. And yet he's the same person who, towards the last couple of years, very much spoke out against Donald Trump.

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, there was definitely an evolution there. But Dick Cheney always stayed, you know, loyal to America and to his vision, to my good friend Charlie Dent's point. And so, as you watched him get older and you watched his conviction, he stayed true, just like his daughter did. And when he saw something he didn't agree with, even within his own party, you know, I give him props, and I was somebody back protesting the war and all the things that we've talked about.

But you also have to give credit to the man of staying loyal, even against his own party, when lots of folks in this modern Republican Party have just fallen in line behind Donald Trump, Dick Cheney did not. His daughter did not.

And then, on a lighter note, when you were showing those videos, it made me think about how eloquent he was with his western style, with his small, brimmed Stetson hat, like LBJ wore, when he was at the inauguration. Like the man had style as well.

And on top of that, there's a lot of my buddies out west who are avid fly fisherman, and this man really advocated all the time for public land streams. And he was a prolific fly fisherman. So, you know, not only did we lose, you know, a former vice president, but somebody who fought for our public lands every single day.

CORNISH: You know, I just want to remind people who are joining us. We're talking about the former vice president, Dick Cheney. His family actually confirmed to CNN about his death and that it was due to complications of pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease. We heard from his doctor earlier, Cheney had suffered from heart disease for many decades.

Margaret, I want to come to you because there is so much about how we think about the vice presidency now that even maybe those in Trump world were able to sort of take advantage of due to the way that Cheney treated the job.

TALEV: You know, I think that's a very good point because the vice presidency is just -- it's sort of like the political equivalent of being an understudy on Broadway. There's -- there's maybe not that much to do. And, in fact, you occasionally feel marginalized until -- unless and until your number gets called. And there have been many vice presidents for whom that relationship in the shadows actually became antagonistic with the president. But what you did see with Dick Cheney, and in some ways Walter Mondale, revolutionized the vice presidency, too.

But with what you saw with Vice President Cheney was really stepping in and taking quite a strong role. If a president allows you or empowers you to do that, it does enable you to do that. And, you know, I think that's really important. The vice presidency is -- is what you and the president make of it to some extent. But I also am struck by the fact that Dick Cheney, in later years, was

not just Liz Cheney's father, but Mary Cheney's father. And what you saw with him on a personal level is what you see with many parents outside of politics, that their children's experiences help cause them to rethink or reshape the way they look at elements of life.

And in the political context, this could be everything from an evolving views on gay marriage and rights for gay Americans to, again, issues around January the 6th and this balance between, you know, politics or patriotism.

[06:55:15]

CORNISH: Yes.

TALEV: And in so many ways he lived out sort of a parent's evolution on a pretty public stage, even though he and his family were relatively private people.

So, I think Dick Cheney, a fascinating, modern political leader living sort of beyond the traditional roles of the vice presidency. And today, as we are watching some of these key, what we call off year elections and the race for New York City -- New York City's mayor has so captivated Americans thinking about, what is the future of the Democratic Party. I think we can look back again at that evolution from what the Republican Party embodied in the year 2000 or in the year 2004 --

CORNISH: Yes.

TALEV: And look at what the Republican Party represents today. And we can see that, for better or for worse, depending on your view, even with strong leadership, parties can change dramatically over just a short period of time.

CORNISH: Yes.

I want to give the last word to Charlie. So I'm just going to come to you for a moment, Chuck.

This was not exactly a person people considered a culture warrior, so to speak. People think of him in the context of national security and all these other issues. In what ways did Cheney kind of force Democrats to shift how they approach issues of national security?

ROCHA: I think because he had such a powerful role. Most folks don't think of the vice presidents to the point that we're making of having such a leadership role. But he was put front and center by President Bush to be the voice and the face of it. And, as we've described here, he took a lot of heat for that, and for lots of mistakes that were made in that war. And he stood up and did that.

But he put international stuff out on the board that Democrats had to take on case by case. It's easy to be anti-war, but it's hard to have to explain that. And he would step up and take on that debate every time. And I think that's what really makes him different in the modern age that we're living with now, where we're trying to start wars via Twitter.

CORNISH: You guys, I want to bring in one other voice who sometimes joins the chat, but we have Jonah Goldberg on the line. I believe he -- hi there, Jonah, of "The Dispatch."

JONAH GOLDBERG, CO-FOUNDER/EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE DISPATCH": Hi, Audie.

CORNISH: I don't know how close you were with the Cheney family. Can you talk about how you're feeling in this moment learning that the former vice president has passed away?

GOLDBERG: Sure. I should say, my colleague, the co-founder of "The Dispatch," Seve Hayes, was very close to the Cheney family, and he wrote the -- a biography of Dick Cheney. So, I've sort of been in that orbit. I know Liz a good deal. And I knew Dick Cheney off and on over the years.

Look, I -- it's a sad day in the sense that, you know, I personally think a pretty great guy has passed away who made a meaningful contribution. But, at the same time, he was 84, and he lived this really amazing life. And -- which, you know, should, in some ways, be celebrated.

So, like, when my old boss, William F. Buckley died, it's like, yes, it's a sad chapter ending. But at the same time, what an amazing life.

CORNISH: Yes.

GOLDBERG: And I think that gets lost sometimes in these kinds of conversations.

CORNISH: Well, as we mentioned, he started out a multi-term congressman in Wyoming. He served as chief of staff in -- or -- in administrations, Nixon, Ford, of course, the Bush family. When you think of this as an end of a chapter, end of a political chapter, as you mentioned, what do you think is coming to an end? What aspects of that legacy do you think come to an end with Cheney himself?

GOLDBERG: Yes, so I'm going to dissent a little bit. I was listening to the show. A little -- dissent a little bit with Charlie Dent on this though. I do not think that Dick Cheney was a particularly neoconservative person. Neoconservatism has turned into this thing about being pro-war, which was sort of never its history, or anything like that.

I think what it is and end of is this idea that you could be a fierce and serious partisan and champion of preferred public policies, while still being a profoundly patriotic person who put the country first.

CORNISH: Yes.

GOLDBERG: And I think that's -- that's how I think about Dick Cheney. He was not a particularly crazy right winger. He, you know, he came of age in the Ford administration. He was sort of -- of that wing of the sort of -- the intellectual wing of the Ford-Nixon years. And what he believed in was profoundly protecting the United States of America in the wake of 9/11. And I think that has colored the way a lot of people are going to remember him.

CORNISH: Yes.

Jonah Goldberg, of "The Dispatch," thank you for joining us today and for talking about Dick Cheney. The former vice president has passed away at the age of 84.

[07:00:05]

His family confirmed this to CNN in a statement that he died due to complications of pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease.

I want to thank my group for being with me today to talk about this legacy as this news is just breaking. And we'll have more details next. "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts now.