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CNN This Morning
Lisa Phillips and Sharlene Rochard are Interviewed about the Epstein Vote; Ann Johnson is Interviewed about the Court Ruling on the Redrawn Texas Map; Irin Carmon is Interviewed about Abortion Measure in South Carolina; South Carolina Abortion Measure Stalls. Aired 6:30- 7a ET
Aired November 19, 2025 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[06:33:15]
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me on CNN THIS MORNING.
It's half past the hour. And here is what's happening now.
A triumph for Jeffrey Epstein abuse survivors.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Senate has passed the bill under unanimous consent.
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CORNISH: So, that happened with overwhelming support. Congress passed a bill to release the Epstein files and will send it to the president's desk. I'm going to talk to two survivors in just a moment.
And Iran says it's open to resuming nuclear talks with the U.S. That's according to a senior Iranian official speaking exclusively to CNN. But he says there are conditions, insisting Tehran will not move from the position it held before the U.S. and Israel attacked it in June. They say uranium enrichment will continue because the country needs fuel for power plants and medical purposes.
And New Orleans appears to be the next city on the president's immigration crackdown tour. Sources tell CNN, the Border Patrol chief is expected to arrive there the first week of December.
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GREGORY BOVINO, BORDER PATROL CHIEF: We've got a great leadership team that we work for, that we look to leadership from, and that would be President Trump, Kristi Noem and all of those folks.
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CORNISH: And Bovino, who previously served as the chief patrol agent in New Orleans.
And we're now waiting to see what happens next as the bill to force the release of the Epstein case files heads to the president's desk.
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REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): The only thing that will speak to the powerful, courageous women behind me is when action is actually taken to release these files. And the American people won't tolerate any other (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
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[06:35:01]
CORNISH: So, after passing through both chambers of Congress Tuesday with just one dissenting vote, President Trump has previously said he would sign it. Some senators are skeptical about how this administration will handle it after he signs.
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SEN. PETER WELCH (D-VT): Now, the next question is, will Trump use some other maneuvers in an effort to deny the information to the public that's required by the statute? We'll see. But I don't trust Trump on that.
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CORNISH: Joining me now, Lisa Phillips and Sharlene Rochard, two survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse.
Thank you, guys, for being here this morning. I really appreciate it.
LISA PHILLIPS, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Thank you.
CORNISH: It must have been wild to be standing there knowing that there was one dissenting vote, meaning all that time upwards of 200 people could have joined in on this fight. How are you thinking about the vote this morning?
SHARLENE ROCHARD, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: That the vote's amazing. I mean that we are one step closer.
CORNISH: I want to talk about the files that could be released, because if this, once the president signs it, and now DOJ has to release things, that could be flight logs, emails, messages. What is it that you want to see -- Sharlene I know people have been talking about the idea of a list.
ROCHARD: So, yes. When -- everybody keeps talking about a list. And it's not a list. It's actually files. And what I'm hoping that they're going to see is accountability is going to be taking place. And also, what happened behind everything and how this works so that we can prevent this from happening to other girls and young boys.
Again, this is an operation. This is more than just a list.
CORNISH: Can you talk about that as an operation? What do you mean by that?
PHILLIPS: Well, there were many layers of it. So, just connecting the dots really of the survivors and being on the island, being in the New York City house, being on Zorro Ranch, being overseas, and then with the wealthy, powerful men that were also involved, flight logs and just all the information that's out there that is in -- is in the files. There isn't actually, like she said, when I stood up there --
CORNISH: Yes.
PHILLIPS: And I said, we -- we have the list, we can release the list, it was like a power move to say, if you're not going to do it, we'll do it. Because there's hundreds of us survivors that have also connected the dots as well. And we've given that information over to the proper authorities. But it was their responsibility to handle that.
CORNISH: You've got a DOJ that, you know, spent a couple of months redacting the president's name from the files. You had the conversation between Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell. Now she's at a lower security prison.
ROCHARD: Yes.
CORNISH: Do you trust this DOJ to release everything, to handle these files well going forward?
ROCHARD: Yes and no. I'm hoping that they're going to do the right thing and release everything, especially even just our own files so we know what just happened to us. We don't need the world to know, but we really do want proof that this actually happened to us. And we have -- we do have some of that within the black book and things like that. But we just want proof that this happened to us as well in many different ways. And we want to help other girls that -- that this doesn't happen again.
PHILLIPS: Yes, that she's -- it's confusing to us what happened to us back then because we don't have all the answers. We're still, even up to every time that we come together, finding out more information and a new survivor comes forward has a picture of us from -- from that time. And so it's just a confusing thing for us collectively. So, we want the files as well, just to know our complete story.
CORNISH: It's interesting, in the PSA that was released recently, you guys are holding images of yourself at that age. And I have to ask, given the comments, I think it was a kind of high profile podcaster saying, look, 15 isn't five. Calling this person a pedophile is somehow like not -- we're talking about the story the wrong way. Did you want to show people that that age is young, and does that affect how people think of this as a crime?
PHILLIPS: Well, a lot of people don't understand that. We're all mothers now. So, we want to do this for our younger self. But a lot of us, I think all of us have children the exact same age we were. So, it's a different thing. And this is very common with serial predators. Even just like the cases of like, like with, with Cosby and Weinstein, a lot of times you don't realize what happened to you until you see what -- your child. And for --
CORNISH: Because you realize just how young they are.
PHILLIPS: Oh, I have a 14-year-old child, and a lot of the survivors we were with yesterday were abused at 14.
[06:40:01]
And I look at my child like, this is an innocent little kid. Like, how is that possible that, you know, someone like Ghislaine Maxwell walked up to this 14-year-old and was able to pull them into this, you know, scheme? It's just heartbreaking to us. So, it's a its a greater sense of realization for all of us when you see your child at that age.
ROCHARD: And we showed those pictures because looking at us now, we're adults.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
ROCHARD: So, to be able to get the impact that we wanted, like, this is us at this age. This is me. And it just shows, OK, this is what I looked like. I didn't look like an older woman now.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
ROCHARD: So, instead of a, you know, it just makes more of an impact to show that.
I mean, my daughter, she knows how to use TikTok. And if somebody comes to her on the street like, oh, you want to do a TikTok? Oh, sure. You know, your brain is not fully developed at that age and you literally believe almost everything you see. And especially with A.I. and Sora (ph) now, all the kids, like, they believe this and we don't know what is truth and what is fact.
CORNISH: Yes. I think there's some irony in that, you know, Epstein,, you know, reportedly used your friendships against each other, used your friendships to draw you in to this circle of abuse. And then your friendships are what is maybe helping you get out of this. I don't want to armchair psychologist, but what has that been like?
PHILLIPS: Yes, full circle. That is a full circle. Yes, because the only way that Jeffrey was able to abuse was through women. Ghislaine, other women at model agencies. We know -- we were models. So, we know it was a lot of women sending Jeffrey young girls. And then also the girls bring in their own friends or, you know, you can get out of this if you bring other girlfriends from your high school.
CORNISH: And it makes it feel like it's your fault, right?
PHILLIPS: Yes. That's a --
CORNISH: Like you're carrying that for all those years.
PHILLIPS: Yes, he did that for a reason. That's the way of just trapping you.
ROCHARD: But what's interesting, to also answer your question is, yes, the girls were kind of pinned against each other. But when we come together now, we honestly are survivor sisters. We all love each other so much.
PHILLIPS: We're in this together.
ROCHARD: It's like we have a -- we had so much trauma since that. And we don't hold it against each other.
PHILLIPS: No.
ROCHARD: We actually love each other more for it. Like, Lisa feels like my sister instead of just another friend that I had previously. So, it's a different bond. I can't explain it, but it's different. It's amazing.
CORNISH: I'm glad you have it.
PHILLIPS: Well, that's why that win last night, sitting in the House and watching them all fight for us, looking at us and being like, you know, we've got you. It was -- it was so --
ROCHARD: Oh, yes.
PHILLIPS: It was so amazing.
ROCHARD: The representatives were like giving us hearts and waving at us.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
ROCHARD: And it was just, oh, my God, it was the most amazing feeling.
PHILLIPS: It was overwhelming. Yes, we did -- it was -- it was -- it was only one person who was like, uh-uh, I'm not doing this.
CORNISH: Yes.
PHILLIPS: The only one. I was like, how is that possible?
CORNISH: There's always one.
Before I let you go, does this president owe you an apology or a visit or a signing ceremony?
PHILLIPS: Oh, we would love that. We want to -- we want to feel seen and heard by him as well. We do.
CORNISH: Are you going to get it?
ROCHARD: We don't know. I mean, it's up to him. He has to say yes or no. We've put ourselves out there. And if he wants to do that with us, that would be great.
CORNISH: OK. Well, Lisa Phillips, Sharlene Rochard, you guys are really brave to keep coming out and talking about this in this day and age. I appreciate your time. Thank you.
ROCHARD: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: And thank you so much.
All right, and if you missed any part of that conversation, any part of our show, you want to catch up later, we're a podcast. I'd love for you to scan the QR code now so you can listen, share it. CNN THIS MORNING is available anywhere you get your podcasts.
And next on CNN THIS MORNING, South Carolina debates one of the strictest abortion laws in the nation. How people in the state feel about it.
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[06:48:28]
CORNISH: (AUDIO GAP) President Trump and Republicans on Tuesday, a federal judge blocked Texas from using its newly redrawn congressional map in next year's midterms. The court said it's likely the map is an unconstitutional racial gerrymander. It was designed at the urging of the president to help Republicans flip five Democratic held House seats next year. So, the attorney general, Ken Paxton, in Texas, is appealing the ruling. He claims, quote, "the radical left is once again trying to undermine the will of the people. The big, beautiful map was entirely legal and passed for partizan purposes to better represent the political affiliations of Texas."
Joining me now to discuss, Democratic Texas State Representative Ann Johnson.
Good morning. Thank you for being here.
ANN JOHNSON (D), TEXAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Good morning. A pleasure to be with you. Thank you very much.
CORNISH: So, what we've seen this court say, in effect, politicians can't pick their voters. Voters should pick their politicians. What is your next step in this case, which is going to be appealed?
JOHNSON: Well, we're absolutely grateful that a Trump appointed Republican judge is actually the one that found that what Texas has done is engage in racial discrimination and racial gerrymandering. And so, I am grateful that they have made this ruling. And now we will see whether or not the Trump United States Supreme Court will take this up.
CORNISH: Yes.
JOHNSON: And so, I'm grateful for the court's ruling in this case. And we'll see if it holds. CORNISH: I hear you calling it the Trump Supreme Court, but the U.S.
Supreme Court, with Samuel Alito oversees the Fifth Appeals Court, right, this district?
[06:50:05]
It will be Alito who takes a look at that temporary stay request. He can pass it on. He can turn it away. What are your concerns?
JOHNSON: Again, my concern is, as President Trump has said in the past, he has called this his court. He has called this his appointments. And I think it's really important that this court rise to the occasion of representing the Constitution and the American people.
I am grateful that this Trump appointed appellate court judge, who is a Republican and had run as a Republican in Texas, had the courage to say what Texas Republicans, what Greg Abbott, what Trump did with the 2025 map was to take districts that were designed to put racial communities together, to have the ability to have a voice in government and take them and attempt to dismantle them, because Trump is afraid of the results of the next election.
CORNISH: Yes.
JOHNSON: And so, it's really important that our courts rise to the occasion of being the guardrails to protect our constitutionality and the right of every individual to have their voice heard in government.
CORNISH: So, your district, 134, in Houston, is one of the most diverse. Lots of people with college degrees. If this went to the high court, there is a risk that the court could overturn the Voting Rights Act altogether, could lean in harder on this issue of racial gerrymandering and make a decision that is not in your favor. Are you putting those voter's rights at risk?
JOHNSON: I mean we're protecting those voters. It is why Texas house Democrats broke quorum. We brought the attention of the nation to what Republicans were trying to do, in the dead of night, trying to effectively pass these maps and take away five districts at the elected representative that the people of Texas had actually selected, and get them out before the next election cycle. Us stepping up for the right of voters, the right for people to vote against us if they want to, and to ensure that the people pick their politicians and not politicians picking their people is incredibly important.
So, I am proud of what we have done, and I know that we stand on the right side of, not only the constitution, but history. And so, the courts are there to protect in this very moment. And we are going to find out if the United States Supreme Court has the courage to do so and tell Trump that he can't take five seats before the next election simply because he's afraid of his policies and is not willing to change his policies or ideas so that the people will actually vote for him.
CORNISH: Yes. That's State Rep. Ann Johnson, Texas Democrat. Thank you.
JOHNSON: A pleasure to be with you.
CORNISH: All right, I want to talk next about that near-total abortion ban proposal. It's actually stalled in South Carolina. So, the measure threatened women and abortion providers with prison time and aimed to restrict IUDs and IVF. The bill failed to get out of legislative subcommittee yesterday after four of six Republicans refused to even vote on it. One of them saying, residents aren't interested in such an extreme measure right now. That doesn't mean the bill is dead, but a path forward is murky.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am pro-life because I believe that there's a child in the womb. It's not just a bunch of cells or a fetus.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are no laws that control men's bodies, and there should be none that control ours.
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CORNISH: Joining us now, journalist and the author of "Unbearable: Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America," Irin Carmon.
Welcome back to the program.
IRIN CARMON, AUTHOR, "UNBEARABLE: FIVE WOMEN AND THE PERILS OF PREGNANCY IN America": Thanks for having me, Audie. Good morning.
CORNISH: So, you have said that what's happening in South Carolina, meaning this particular legislation, you called it a natural progression of calling abortion murder, right, which for anti-abortion advocates, they have looked at laws that treat embryos and even fertilized eggs as constitutional persons. So, what's significant about how this is playing out?
CARMON: Well, Audie, there is a fision (ph) within the anti-abortion movement about not only how to approach this moment, but really from the moment that Roe v. Wade existed about how to approach their ideology. And what we see in South Carolina is really the vanguard of that debate.
Now that the Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade in the past three years, you've had groups vying for what is the best next strategy. Is it to do what South Carolina has done, which is, again, to take that ideology of even, at the very first moment of fertilization, they would like this blastocyst, embryo, fetus to have the legal status of a person over the person who's carrying it. And what we're actually seeing is the political backlash being very powerful to that extremist view. It's the same view you mentioned, IUDs. It's also the same view that led the Alabama State Supreme Court to ban IVF until there was a legislative fix in the state of Alabama.
It's something that many people in the anti-abortion movement believe quite consistent with their belief, with their -- they see the world. CORNISH: Right.
[06:55:08]
CARMON: But it is definitely politically toxic.
One thing I will say is that even though this bill failed out of committee, South Carolina has often been a kind of testing ground for future laws, definitely worth paying attention to because what they have in place right now, the six week abortion ban, when fetal activity is first detected, used to be considered the most extreme possible law. That's now in effect in multiple states. So, certainly for now, the so-called abolitionists, the most extreme wing of the anti-abortion movement, has been quashed. But they are certainly not going anywhere.
CORNISH: Well, it's an interesting development, because I know that the proposal had, I think, sentences of 30 years. So, we're going to be watching the backlash to it and how it plays out.
Irin, thanks so much for being here.
CARMON: Thank you.
CORNISH: OK, you guys, we have talked a lot in this last hour. We heard from Epstein survivors. And we also talked about this abortion bill. I do want to ask you guys about the abortion politics, because this president has called himself the IVF president. So, these laws that sort of endanger that ability seem to resonate. Am I misreading that or?
DUSTIN OLSON, HOST, "POLITICAL TRADE SECRETS" PODCAST: I would say that in many ways a lot of Americans feel like this was resolved in the last couple of years because of the Dobbs decision. Now, it's Dobbs decision. Now it's back at the states. And now states are the ones who are dealing with it.
CORNISH: Yes.
OLSON: And I think it's pretty -- it's not surprising at all that this would happen in South Carolina.
CORNISH: Yes, and I think it's surprising to see abortion -- anti- abortion groups, though, say, hey, that's too far.
CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: And I think it goes also to show that we talk about gerrymandering at the federal level. At the state level, it's even worse. And so, while they have to --
CORNISH: I knew you'd be interested in that one. Yes.
ROCHA: Right. It's even worse because none of these Republicans that want to do this crazy thing, in my opinion, have any thought of ever getting beat except in their own primary, where if they're not as far right on a position as they can be, they'll get a primary from their right if they try to look for some moderate compromise in the middle. CORNISH: I want to --
OLSON: That's on the other side, too.
CORNISH: Oh, you think so? Yes. All right, we'll see if the issue still kind of has legs, so to speak.
I want to talk this week about our group chats, because we're middle of the week. So, we've seen a lot. And there's more to come.
Chuck, can I start with you?
ROCHA: Sure. There has been a little bit of an underreported story in Chicago, where Congressman Chuy Garcia decided not to run for Congress at the last minute, didn't tell nobody, and all of a sudden his chief of staff was the only one who actually filed to run, and actually had all of her signatures done. That did not go over well with some folks in Congress.
CORNISH: So, didn't tell everyone else that they were leaving, and then their chief of staff is the person who suddenly --
ROCHA: And then the filing deadline ends. And, guess what? In Chicago politics, that means you're going to be the congresswoman because nobody else can run, because nobody else can file because they waited till the last minute.
CORNISH: That's not how you make friends.
ROCHA: I know.
CORNISH: OK.
ROCHA: And in the Latino group chat, you should know that there is a Latina talking about running as an independent. And so, this whole thing in the Latino hierarchy, there's going to be this whole, like, uh-huh.
CORNISH: Here we go again. Interesting.
OK, Dustin, what are you guys talking about?
OLSON: So, something that's interesting from the elections here this month, a lot of people didn't know is, now we have 250 plus Democratic socialists of America elected in office across the country, and 90 percent of them have been elected since 2019. So --
CORNISH: So, 90 percent of the 200 or so. Democratic socialists who have been elected across the country --
OLSON: since 2019.
CORNISH: Just since 2019.
OLSON: Yes, so it's accelerating. And I think Mamdani in recent polling in the Harvard Harris (ph) poll, 50 percent of Americans say that they believe he represents the Democratic Party, 65 percent of Democrats say that. And you can just see that the -- there's been a concerted effort. And I think what I call a blue ocean strategy by the DSA (ph) to be able to take on certain kinds of races where there's opportunity where maybe the incumbent is sleeping or, you know, there's --
CORNISH: Or the incumbent steps down and lets their chief of staff come in and suddenly you need an independent to run.
OLSON: Yes, or something like that.
CORNISH: Yes.
OLSON: Anyway, it's been quite fascinating, and I don't think people realize how successful it's been.
CORNISH: It's also watching -- it's fascinating to watch a movement come to maturity, right? I saw that with the Tea Party. Now we're living with all kinds of lawmakers and senators who started out in what was considered a fringe.
I want to talk to you because I think our group chats are talking about the same thing, Jasmine. Go ahead and do it.
JASMINE WRIGHT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "NOTUS": I'm glad I have a full 60 seconds.
CORNISH: Out us all.
WRIGHT: So, what my group chats have been obsessed with over the last few days is talking about Olivia Nuzzi, the former "New York Magazine" Washington correspondent who was fired after it was revealed that she had an inappropriate online, she says, relationship with former independent president -- presidential candidate RFK Jr. And so now she is out with a book telling her side of the story and also really kind of trying to look at the American psyche in this political moment.
CORNISH: Yes. And people may be wondering why we're showing Mark Sanford.
WRIGHT: Yes.
CORNISH: It's not because we don't know the difference.
WRIGHT: Yes.
CORNISH: It's because Nuzzi's ex-fiance wrote an essay.
WRIGHT: Yes, has come out with his side.
CORNISH: Yes.
[07:00:04]
WRIGHT: On his website, writing about how their relationship unfolded. And there was a lot of mentions about bamboo and him hacking away. CORNISH: So many metaphors.
WRIGHT: But, ultimately, it ended. And I don't even want to -- I want people to just go read it because, honestly, it was a great reveal at the end and it would lead you to -- to knowing why we're showing Mark Sanford.
CORNISH: And it's the story about journalism, women, power, and everybody is talking about it.
WRIGHT: Yes. And also people just opening themselves up publicly to caprice (ph) and derision (ph).
CORNISH: Oh, my God. I have to go now.
WRIGHT: And I just --
CORNISH: News headlines are next.
