Return to Transcripts main page
CNN This Morning
Noem Claims Not Citizens have Been Detained; Sharlene Rochard is Interviewed about the Epstein Files; Trump Touts New Battleships. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired December 23, 2025 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:30:00]
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Legal documentation.
VICTORIA STATTON, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: I don't think she had -- she presented documentation. But I know her sister, Shirley (ph), did say she was born here and begged them to stop. And she describes the encounter as hostile.
CORNISH: What have you learned so far about why ICE says -- because when we reached out to them, they said, this person is an illegal alien, and they pointed to an attempted border crossing, they say, where -- that they encountered her.
Can you tell us about that incident?
STATTON: So, she did cross the border without proper documentation. But I want to reiterate, she was born in Maryland. I have seen her birth certificate. I called the hospital myself. And while they were not able to confirm everything due to HIPAA laws, they did confirm that somebody with her name was a patient at the general time period.
I've also submitted the birth certificate, immunization records, and we are working on getting additional records and affidavits that we can submit. Those have all been submitted to multiple agencies. She left the United States and came back in an emergency situation and was stopped at the border. So, that is where some of this confusion is coming from. Where there is no confusion is that she was born inside the United States. She is a U.S. citizen.
CORNISH: Can you talk about the threat of her deportation? I think you said -- is she being held in Louisiana? And what are the conditions?
STATTON: So, I have not been able to talk to her. I was supposed to be able to speak to her in a confidential meeting yesterday. When we connected to that meeting, we were told that she was transferred. Her family was told she was being deported. Thank goodness that was not the case. We did find her at 3:00 a.m. when I logged into the ICE detainee locator. She appears to be in Texas.
CORNISH: So, help me understand how this is supposed to go. If someone is detained and their lawyer shows up waiving the birth certificate, waiving the immunization record, saying, look, maybe it was a mistake, what -- how should this work?
STATTON: I think naively, when I was retained last Tuesday, I thought that it would be cleared up in a matter of hours. I actually used to be a DHS employee. I have a lot of respect for the agency generally. And I expected them to respond appropriately.
I am in shock that it has taken this long for true movement on this case, and I'm very shocked by the pushback.
CORNISH: Have they given evidence to say why they do not believe the documentation you have? Have they said they've actually seen the documentation?
STATTON: They have not given any evidence to us, no.
CORNISH: One of the things -- one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about this is because we're seeing reporting of people being potentially swept up in this kind of mass deportation dragnet. We know the Supreme Court has done a ruling that says, look, you can find people. And I'm wondering if you think that has opened the door to these situations. Because the court said, look, maybe we'll pick up someone here and there, but they should be let go fairly quickly. And that has happened in many cases.
STATTON: I think this case is concerning to me because the evidence is overwhelming. And there's really -- even if there is a discrepancy that we need to adjudicate in court, there is no reason for her to be in detention right now. And I want to be clear, I'm not making a political statement here. I just want my client to be out of detention.
CORNISH: One other thing. I want to show you the statement from DHS, because it was very definitive. They say "Dulce Consuelo Madrigal Diaz is not a U.S. citizen. She's an illegal alien from Mexico. She did not provide a U.S. birth certificate or any evidence."
The reason why I just want to show this to you one more time is how they identify her in her name. And I understand there's been some going back and forth about sort of how people are named in Mexico, first of all. But it did make me wonder, do they have the right person? Is that something that people are wondering?
STATTON: So, they have never claimed that they don't have the right person. That's never been what's up for debate. They've always just claimed that the birth certificate is fake and she is from Mexico.
Her parents have two last names. It is very common in Latino culture for that to happen. And it is confusing sometimes with records. However, what is not confusing, and I want to reiterate, is the records that we have seen at her birth, and what the hospital has been able to confirm. And we are working on getting additional medical records through her mother now.
CORNISH: How is her family taking this? Her kids? Like, what's the -- how are people feeling? STATTON: That's been the most difficult part of this case. And while I
don't want to get too much into the family's personal history and what their feelings are, because that's their story to tell, it has been extremely difficult for them, especially during the holiday seasons, to face the fact that somebody who was born here, who should not be in detention at all, will likely spend Christmas in detention.
CORNISH: What kind of responses have you gotten on social media? I mean your post went viral, and I can imagine some of them are supportive, some are not.
STATTON: I've been surprised that there hasn't been more backlash, honestly, I think because it's just such a shocking case with how much evidence and how much proof. I -- the responses I've got are people are really scared that if this can happen, what more do they expect -- what more do they expect me to produce in order for them to let her go?
[06:35:10]
CORNISH: Yes, it's this weird situation where basically you're trying to -- once you're in the system, how do you get out?
STATTON: And it's a horrible black box that's been very difficult to navigate. I've struggled with it with other clients. I was hoping that this might be easier, because I was hoping that this would be cleared up already.
CORNISH: OK. And I hope you'll keep us up to date on what's going on with your client.
Thanks so much for being here.
OK, so, now this isn't the first time someone who says they are a citizen has been caught up in the Trump administration's immigration dragnet. Just earlier this month, video showed a 20-year-old man got put in a chokehold by a masked federal agent and detained in Minnesota. He's a U.S. citizen.
In July, Jorge Retez (ph) was detained by federal immigration agents during an immigration raid and protest at a legal southern California marijuana farm where he worked. He was held for three days. Retez is an Army veteran and a U.S. citizen.
Adrian Martinez (ph) arrested after a physical altercation with immigration agents. The agents detained a maintenance worker at a shopping center in Pico Rivera, California. Martinez is a U.S. citizen.
And this month, U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal released a report on incidents like these. He says his office has obtained similar accounts from 22 Americans.
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem has said in front of both Congress and reporters in recent weeks that this is not a problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We have never once detained or deported an American citizen. We have not held them and charged them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not true. Not true.
NOEM: When we find out, to verify their identity, then that is when they are released.
There's no American citizens have been arrested or detained. We focus on those that are here illegally. And anything that you would hear or report that would be different than that is simply not true and false reporting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK, group chat is back.
It was really interesting hearing the attorney, because she used to work for DHS. So, she's not coming to it as someone that's, like, what they're doing is irrational. What did you hear?
PENNY NANCE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Yes, you know, I -- listen, I -- that was a very sympathetic story. And I did feel for her parents who said there's an empty place at their dinner table for Christmas.
But I also think about Jocelyn Nungaray's family, who have an empty place forever. And also Laken Riley's family, who have an empty place forever. And the people who died because of drunk drivers who weren't supposed to be in this --
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But, Penny, I --
NANCE: Hold on. Let me just finish. I -- we need to make sure we get it right. And they need to let --
CARDONA: That has nothing to do with this.
NANCE: No, hold on.
CARDONA: That has absolutely nothing to do with this, Penny.
NANCE: It -- the overall story is the fact that 77 million people voted for Donald Trump, and they want us to close the borders, and they want to clean up the mess because Venezuela sent in criminals into our country. And people that shouldn't be here were allowed in.
CARDONA: OK. OK, Penny --
NANCE: And we've got to clean it up. And it's not -- it's messy. It's just messy.
CARDONA: Penny, yes. You know I love you and we've been friends for quite a while. That -- what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with this. This woman is a U.S. citizen.
NANCE: Correct.
CARDONA: She was born here.
NANCE: If that's true.
CARDONA: This make -- hang on. Hang on.
This makes -- her lawyer was showing her birth certificate. What else do they need for this to be true?
NANCE: I don't know anything about this story.
CARDONA: This makes -- this makes -- this makes me blood boil. And it makes everyone's blood run cold who are not just U.S. citizens.
I am a naturalized citizen. This terrifies me.
NANCE: But, Maria, you should also be afraid of criminals that came over our border.
CARDONA: So -- so, no, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, Penny -- Penny -- Penny, you spoke. Let me speak.
NANCE: Go ahead. Go ahead, sister.
CARDONA: This has nothing to do with criminals coming over the border. She was born here. So, if this can happen to somebody who was born here, who simply, maybe she speaks Spanish.
CORNISH: Yes.
CARDONA: Her heritage is from Mexico. Her skin is brown. She might have an accent. What does that say about this country?
NANCE: We need to get it right. I agree, we need to get it right.
CORNISH: So, here's the question. Here are the questions that we're asking out of this.
CARDONA: This -- no, this -- this country is becoming incredibly xenophobic and it's dangerous.
CORNISH: Is, once you make this decision to do mass deportations in this way, how does it work, right? And at what point --
NANCE: But we need to get it right, no doubt.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Right.
CORNISH: How does it work? And what are the ways in or out of the system? I know that congressional Democrats have written the administration and they say, "across the country, green card applications, naturalization interviews, oath ceremonies, paused, canceled, basis on their national origin." But this is the sentence I wanted to talk to you about, Stephen. "What
is clear is that no amount of vetting, moral-character, or commitment to this country and its democratic values is enough to satiate the Trump administration."
COLLINSON: Yes. And what I think we're seeing now is this increasing move against legal immigration as well as illegal immigration.
CORNISH: Meaning the green card, the naturalization.
COLLINSON: That -- yes.
CORNISH: Yes.
COLLINSON: You -- you have -- there's the case before the Supreme Court about birthright citizenship, for example. The accusation against the administration is that they are choosing who is a rightful American, not always in line with the law or the traditions of the country.
[06:40:07]
You know, that -- you're absolutely right, there was a strong vote from the American people in the last election to tighten the borders. Things have clearly got out of control. The question is, when you see pictures like we just saw there of people being pulled off the streets, of American citizens being pulled into this vortex of a government that seems to be able to just take people and no one knows where they went, that also is something that comes up against the values of the United States as much as securing -- the need to secure the border --
CORNISH: Yes.
CARDONA: And don't --
CORNISH: Just because you're talking about values. The Florida bishops asked, actually, for a pause during Christmas.
CARDONA: Yes.
CORNISH: Just straight up, from the church, saying, "sometimes these roundups include those with legal authorization to be here. Eventually these cases may be resolved, but that takes months." And then they say this, "a growing majority of Americans say the harsh enforcement policies are going too far. A climate of fear and anxieties infecting not only the irregular migrant, but also family members and neighbors who are legally in this country." That's just from the Archdiocese of Miami.
CARDONA: It also goes against what Donald Trump promised, which is, he promised to go after the criminal, most violent, undocumented people that are here. And that is absolutely not what is happening here. And what DHS is doing is focused on a policy that is intent on cruelty. It is intent on dividing families. It is coming from a xenophobic group of administration officials who -- NANCE: That is not fair.
CORNISH: Let me let Penny have the last word here.
NANCE: That is not fair.
CARDONA: Absolutely what is playing out right now, Penny.
NANCE: That's -- that's -- no, that is not fair.
It is messy, and -- but it's got to be done.
But I agree, we've got to get it right. And --
CARDONA: What's got to be done?
NANCE: We've got to get the criminals off the streets that do not belong here.
CARDONA: That's not what they're doing. That's the -- that's the problem.
NANCE: If -- that's -- that's what I just said, we've got to do it right and it's got to be done correctly.
CARDONA: That's -- but you're -- they're not doing that right.
NANCE: And they've got to -- they've -- well, I often hear these stories.
CARDONA: That's the problem.
NANCE: I'm sorry, when Abrego Garcia is referred to as a Maryland dad who's -- who has done all sorts of evil things, and yet he is -- he's held up as this great, you know, person that should be here, it makes me wonder about some of these other stories.
CARDONA: Well, you know, there's no proof.
NANCE: There's lots of proof.
CARDONA: There's no proof that he is what the administration is accusing him of.
NANCE: Well, now --
CARDONA: And that's the problem.
NANCE: And -- and that's the --
CARDONA: They're not -- they're not following the law because they are not presenting evidence in court of all the things they are accusing him of.
NANCE: I think these are cherry-picked cases. And I think there is thing --
CARDONA: Well, in your opinion.
NANCE: Well, right. That's why I'm here, to give my opinion.
CORNISH: Let me jump in on you guys. The thing about cherry-picked cases is sometimes they make it to the highest court in the land --
NANCE: Which will take -- be cared (ph) for (ph).
CORNISH: Because these are very, very serious questions about, is there any amount of citizenship that can protect you in the U.S.? The answer may be no --
CARDONA: Not in -- not under this xenophobic administration, that's for sure.
CORNISH: Especially if they de-naturalize people or if some of the other elements come up. And coming up in the Supreme Court season next year we will be looking at a case about birthright citizenship.
So, a lot to discuss there.
And if you missed any of that conversation, or you want to share it because you're talking about it at home too, know that we are a podcast. So, just scan the QR code now to find it. And CNN THIS MORNING is available anywhere you get your podcasts.
Next on CNN, the U.S. unveils a new class of Navy ships as tensions with Venezuela mount. Why this new fleet could escalate the conflict in the Caribbean.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't say that I'm surprised at how this rollout has taken place. But I'm definitely disappointed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: And breaking news this morning, the Justice Department releases more of the Epstein files. Survivors are still demanding transparency. And we're going to hear from one of them, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [06:48:12]
CORNISH: All right, we continue to follow breaking news.
Brand-new documents released from the Jeffrey Epstein files overnight. CNN is going through them as we speak, and we're going to share information we learn in the coming hours.
We also have new details on the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. For example, this is from a January 2020 email from an assistant U.S. attorney from the Southern District of New York. And the email says flight records show Trump, quote, "traveled on Epstein's private jet many more times than previously has been reported, or that we were aware."
The emails also say there were several flights back in the '90s where Trump was a passenger, along with Ghislaine Maxwell. And there's at least one flight where Epstein and Trump traveled alone. That was back in 1993. Another time when it was the two of them a then 20-year-old.
Trump is not accused of criminal wrongdoing. None of these new details point to any criminal wrongdoing.
Joining me now is Sharlene Rochard, and Epstein survivor.
First of all, what are days like this like for you waking up to, guess what, more documents? What does it mean? How does that kind of hit you?
SHARLENE ROCHARD, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Honestly, right now, it hits me as no surprise that they're slowly releasing things. But my faith and trust in the government at this point is completely lost. I still have a little bit of hope, but since everything is basically redacted, there is no real transparency.
CORNISH: I know a couple of things people have wanted to see are flight logs that are unredacted, calendars that are unredacted, or even information about the charging or decisions around charging of Epstein in that first Trump term.
[06:50:00]
I want to play for you the president's reaction to these documents being released. This is what he had to say on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe they gave over 100,000 pages of documents. And there's tremendous backlash. It's an interesting question. Because a lot of people are very angry that pictures are being released of other people that really had nothing to do with Epstein, but they're in a picture with him because he was in a party. And you ruined a reputation of somebody. So, a lot of people are very angry that this continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: What's your reaction to sort of his concerns there?
ROCHARD: My reaction to his concerns are that we are not a hoax. We are not lying. These pictures may show things, and they may not show things. But regardless, we -- what we are telling is the truth. And some of the things that have come out are actually the truth. Like Maria Farmer's report to the FBI 30 -- almost 30 years ago or before. Actually, we started reporting this almost 30 years ago. But what he's saying, it doesn't really make sense, to be honest.
CORNISH: And then when you hear his name being mentioned in these new files, how are you reacting to that? How are you thinking about it?
ROCHARD: Honestly, I think that his name is in the files a lot for a reason.
CORNISH: What are you and the other victims going to be doing in the coming days? Do you guys ever try and go through these files yourself? Do you make new requests? What happens for you all when these releases happen?
ROCHARD: Well, some of the girls comb through them and we look for everything. We are going to be looking through absolutely everything. And for me personally, what happened to me was pretty awful on many accounts. And so, I've chosen to just leave that up to my lawyer. And when things pop up that might be me, then I'll talk about it at that point in time with my lawyer. But we are combing through everything. But because things are heavily, so heavily redacted, I mean, my name is not a full page long. There are pages there that are completely black. And I don't know anybody's name that's a full page long. All we asked for was that our names be redacted. And so I just, honestly, I've really lost all hope.
CORNISH: We have a Democratic congressman who was talking about the information that has been coming out, Ro Khanna of California. I'm just going to play that for you for a second as he talks about what success they claim they have had.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): They have succeeded in getting some redactions where there were a group of survivors names that were present. But, obviously, there are still survivors who have had their information released in violation of the law that Massie and I wrote. And here is what is infuriating. While they're releasing survivors, they're protecting the men who raped them or who covered up the abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Sharlene Rochard, is that how you're experiencing it well? I see you nodding.
ROCHARD: Yes, that's honestly how I'm experiencing it. This -- for full transparency to be considered and for trust to be restored with the American people and with us as survivors, people need to understand that this is not just about us and these files. This is about all of America and how we've been treated in the justice system. We're protecting predators and not children. We were children at this time, and that's why we held up our pictures in the PSA. And this is just deplorable that they're even releasing some of our names, that there's so many redactions. And just for everybody to restore faith in this justice system, we need full transparency.
CORNISH: Sharlene, before I let you go, do you have a message to the Trump administration?
ROCHARD: Please work on restoring trust. Please be understanding that all of this is re-triggering and traumatizing to the survivors. Please handle everything with care regarding the survivors. But let's stop protecting predators and start protecting the children and people in general of America. CORNISH: All right, Sharlene Rochard, thank you so much for your time.
I appreciate it.
[06:55:00]
ROCHARD: Thank you so much for having me.
CORNISH: And as we're going through those documents today, we want to note, the president has not been accused of being involved in Epstein's criminal activity.
I want to turn to something else, because Trump has been, of course, angling for a Nobel Peace Prize. He seems very focused now on naval warfare. First, the president is once again branding something with his name. This time it's a new Trump class of Navy battleships. He says it's about improving the, quote, "esthetics" of the U.S. fleet.
The timing is notable here, though, of course. The president is pursuing a foreign policy focus, not just on vibes. The U.S. announced it struck another alleged drug smuggling boat on Monday, this time in the Pacific. One person was killed. That means that the U.S. military has now killed 105 people in strikes that have destroyed 30 boats.
The president is also threatening more action against Venezuela. He says the U.S. is still in pursuit of an oil tanker in the Caribbean. More than 24 hours later, the U.N. Security Council set to hold a briefing on Venezuela today. So, where does all this lead?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Is the ultimate goal in Venezuela to force Maduro from power?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think it probably would. I can't tell that. That's up to him, what he wants to do. I think it would be smart for him to do that. But again, we're going to find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: We're going to find out.
COLLINSON: The problem is, you know, we've been waiting to find out what exactly this Venezuela operation is for, for months. The administration says ostensibly it's about cutting down on drug trafficking. Most of the fentanyl that comes into the United States doesn't come to -- through Venezuela.
It looks what the goal is, is part of the wider administration attempt to impose U.S. power on the western hemisphere.
CORNISH: Yes.
COLLINSON: Greenland comes into this as well.
CORNISH: Yes, which they call the Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine.
COLLINSON: To the Monroe Doctrine, yes.
CORNISH: Yes, the idea that the U.S., in the past this meant, Europe, stay out of this part of the world. They're taking it a step further.
COLLINSON: Right. And it looks now that the president, despite all his threats, clearly doesn't want to, if he can help it, use military action on the ground in Venezuela. That brings in a load of more questions about whether this is lawful or whether it should be authorized by Congress. It seems to be to try and strangle the Maduro regime, potentially also strangle the Cuban regime, which is getting a lot of its oil from Venezuela.
CORNISH: Yes, doing a lot of --
COLLINSON: But I think everyone would benefit if the administration actually came out and said what its strategy actually is, presuming it does have an end game here. And I don't think that is clear either.
CORNISH: So, that is a question that was raised by Senator Richard Blumenthal. He's on the Homeland Security and Armed Forces Committee. Here is what he told CNN on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): There is no clear sense of what the end game or strategy is. And growing disquiet and deepening satisfaction on both sides of the aisle with potentially a path toward war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Can I bring it over to this side of the table?
NANCE: Sure. Sure.
CORNISH: It's a pretty straightforward question.
NANCE: Yes, as a military mom, there's not going to be a regime change. I don't believe that there's any support for there to be an invasion of Venezuela.
But what the president has said all along, and what most American people support is, we've got to disrupt the drugs coming into our country. Two hundred people a day drop dead from drugs. It's not all certainly Venezuela, but that's certainly part of the pathway here. And I'm sorry, people aren't upset about drug dealers' boats being blown up.
CORNISH: Yes.
NANCE: That's the truth.
CARDONA: But you know -- but you know why that actually doesn't make sense at all? First of all -- NANCE: Tell me.
CARDONA: Because of what Stephen said, that a lot of the fentanyl is not coming from Venezuela. And secondly -- and second --
NANCE: Cocaine is coming from Venezuela.
CARDONA: And second -- but they -- they talk about fentanyl.
NANCE: Yes. No, and also cocaine.
CARDONA: So, again, they have no idea what they're talking about.
NANCE: They do.
CARDONA: If they -- if you say it's cocaine, they say it's fentanyl.
NANCE: They do.
CARDONA: But secondly, if it really was about drugs, why would they pardon one of the biggest drug dealers that this hemisphere, this -- the world has ever known that was actually indicted here in the United States. And he is now pardoned. So, that is just B.S. coming from this administration who has absolutely no clue what they're doing in Venezuela. A lot of people believe that what they're doing with these boats is full-on assassinations.
CORNISH: Yes. I would say --
CARDONA: (INAUDIBLE) completely illegal.
NANCE: They don't -- there's no interest in assassinating a random guy out on a boat.
CORNISH: Well, we don't know who they are.
NANCE: There's a reason --
CARDONA: Obviously there is because they don't know who these people are.
NANCE: There's a reason for --
CORNISH: All right, so let me take it back just for a second --
NANCE: We have pictures.
CORNISH: Because you guys are raising all the questions people have out of this. Do we know the true identity and evidence against the people who have been assassinated? For Democrats, if you've spent many years talking about how Maduro is a dictator, what is the scenario under which you take those steps? And to your point, the administration is giving us no answers.
COLLINSON: Right. And you can only keep that aircraft carrier on station so long. There are thousands of American personnel off Venezuela. I think this is something that's going to become much more concentrated in the Congress at the start of the next year.
[07:00:05]
NANCE: But the -- they're disrupting --
CORNISH: Yes.
NANCE: The ships are there for a reason because they're disrupting the drug corridor (ph).
CARDONA: They're not doing anything (ph).
CORNISH: Well, I think more people are going to be asking for that evidence. In the meantime, golden fleet, apparently, is going to be built.
So, you guys, thank you so much for talking. Thank you so much for being with us. You have a lot of choices where you can be. I'm glad you're here with us. And the headlines are next.
