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Protests Erupt Across the Country after Woman Killed by ICE; Gordon Sondland is Interviewed about Trump's Global Power; Jill Garvey is Interviewed about Training People to Video ICE; Legality of Recording ICE Agents. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired January 09, 2026 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

NEIL ATKINSON, VISITING FELLOW, NATIONAL CENTER FOR ENERGY ANALYST: The drill, baby, drill mantra so you could say that the Trump administration, certainly in terms of rhetoric, has been very, very supportive of the oil and gas industry, and through other measures. So, the oil industry will -- would regard itself as having a friend in the White House and a friendly administration.

The strings that might be attached, I'm not quite sure what they might be. But ExxonMobil and Chevron and those companies are well used to taking these big investment decisions, going into sometimes complicated places and getting their business done. And we'll just have to wait and see if there are any strings attached that you're suggesting. But if there are not, and if there is stability, as we discussed a few moments ago, then Venezuela will be an enormous opportunity for the international oil companies to get in there and raise production.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Neil, can you picture any company saying no to this?

ATKINSON: Well, again, on condition that the stability, it's very hard to see a company saying no because Venezuela has enormous resources. We can argue whether it's 100 billion barrels or 300 billion barrels. Nobody really knows. But Venezuela is an enormous opportunity because, prior to Chavez taking office in 1999, Venezuela was producing 3.5 million barrels a day of oil, and there was a corporate plan at that time when I was working for Petroleos de Venezuela to raise production up to more than 5.5 million barrels a day by the end of the 2000s.

So, there is massive potential. And if you believe that oil demand is going to continue to rise for many years to come, as I do, then that oil will have to come from somewhere and there are few places which will provide opportunities as good as Venezuela.

CORNISH: OK. Neil Atkinson, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

ATKINSON: Thank you.

CORNISH: Straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, Minnesota officials say they've been shut out of the investigation into that deadly ICE shooting. We're going to be live from Minneapolis with an update.

Plus, President Trump says, and this is a quote, "I don't need international law."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:36:17]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And other leaders have been clear about our concerns with the excessive use of force by federal agents in Portland. And today's incident only heightens the need for transparency and accountability

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: A married couple shot by a Border Patrol agent in Oregon, just one day after the shooting in Minneapolis.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. And I want to thank you for joining me on CNN THIS MORNING.

It's half past the hour. And here's what's happening right now.

That couple in Portland is in the hospital. DHS says federal agents were conducting a targeted vehicle stop at the time of the shooting, and they claim the passenger was an undocumented immigrant with gang affiliations. DHS says the driver tried to run over a Border Patrol agent who had fired a defensive shot. The couple is also now under arrest.

There's a nationwide internet blackout in Iran as anti-government protests spread across the country. Iranians are angry about the economy and harsh security crackdowns. At least 45 protesters, including eight children, have been killed since demonstrations began nearly two weeks ago.

And a crew of four SpaceX astronauts will be making a rare early trip back to earth. NASA says one of the team members is experiencing a medical issue, which requires their return in just the next few days.

And protests and outrage in several cities after the killing of Renee Good in Minneapolis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you say Good. Renee.

CROWD: Good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renee.

CROWD: Good.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CORNISH: From Cleveland, to Georgia, California, protesters are demanding accountability and an end to ICE occupying their cities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we just let this go, if people just kind of go back to their usual lives, they're going to kill again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a name. She had a life. Donald Trump stole it from her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our democracy is crumbling. There is no law anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's a terrifying day. Every single day we're hearing more and more escalations from ICE.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It happened in Minnesota, but it could really happen anywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: In Minneapolis, tensions flared when protesters and federal agents clashed. A CNN team says that agents there pushed their way into the crowd, tackling and detaining people. They also deployed tear gas to break up the crowd.

Minnesota's governor is calling on federal authorities to help deescalate the tension in the community.

Schools in Minneapolis are closed again today.

CNN's Brian Abel joins us now from Minneapolis.

Brian, is it quiet there this morning? What are you seeing?

BRIAN ABEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Actually, Audie, it's not. And this is kind of an odd shot because I know that there's not a lot behind me right now. There was a police vehicle right here. If you can still see the red and blue flashes on my face. And that's because this area that was absent of police just 24 hours ago, this is about a block and a half away from where the ICE shooting, that fatal shooting happened here.

Police have blocked off this area right now because, if you remember those barricades that we were talking about yesterday that the community put together in order -- in order to protect this area and protesters from potential vehicles coming in and ramming, well, the city, the public works department, we've seen multiple vehicles from Minneapolis Public Works come by with those barricades, the remnants of them, in the back of those trucks. So, they are, this morning, dismantling what was right in the road in order to protect protesters. That's what some of the people that put those up had told me yesterday.

So, this morning, once the police leave here momentarily, those will be gone and then we'll get another look at the memorial for Renee Good here that continued to grow throughout the day yesterday.

[06:40:09]

You did mention those protests here, as well as at the Whipple Federal Building that did see clashes between protesters and federal agents. At one point there was at least one person in the crowd that was considered somewhat of an agitator, an anti-protester protester.

I do want to play for you a little bit of sound of the governor addressing that individual and those kind of tensions.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): Our respect for the First Amendment means we will expect and respect all opinions. If this individual is there expressing support for ICE, that's their constitutional right to do so, and they need to be protected. Don't allow that to be a catalyst to create violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABEL: Also, Audie, I do want to mention that so many people here have been asking for transparency. Now that we know the name of the ICE agent, a little bit of that is starting to come through.

But we also know that a joint investigation that was supposed to happen fell apart between state, as well as federal authorities. And we are now learning that mistrust mutually across from each other is the reason for that fracture. The state and federal authorities just simply did not trust that the information would be accurate that they shared with each other.

Audie.

CORNISH: OK, Brian Abel is going to be reporting from Minneapolis throughout the day.

In the meantime, I want to turn to this, President Trump and his "Donroe Doctrine" looking to wield a big stick on the international stage with moves to take charge in Venezuela, renewed focus on acquiring Greenland to start the new year. When pressed by "The New York Times" about what could rein in his power on a global level, this is what he told reporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, there's one thing, my own morality. My own mind. It's the only thing that can stop and -- and that's very good.

REPORTER: Not international law?

TRUMP: I don't need international law. I'm not looking to hurt people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Joining the group chat to discuss, Gordon Sondland, former U.S. ambassador to the European Union.

Thanks so much for being here.

GORDON SONDLAND, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN UNION: Good morning.

CORNISH: So, you have, in the past, kind of defended the sort of mad men defense of Trump, that he's unpredictable. The realpolitik. But I'm wondering, if there's no international law, no bureaucratic process, no committee, no oversight that he believes that can restrain him, what is the check on the president's power?

SONDLAND: Well, the check on the president's power is international law. And you missed the part of the quote at the end where he said, yes, I do have to abide by international law. And he said --

CORNISH: So, why'd he say the first part?

SONDLAND: Well, but what he's -- again, I feel like I'm a full-time Trump speak interpreter. It's like the Ukraine.

CORNISH: Yes. We don't want it either. We'd like to understand the first time.

SONDLAND: It's -- well, it's --

CORNISH: Yes.

SONDLAND: He's a 70-something year old man. He's not going to change. He speaks in metaphors. He speaks with grandiosity. When he says, I'm going to solve the Ukraine problem in 24 hours, no one believed he meant 24 hours. What he was trying to say was, I'm going to focus on it like a laser until it's done. I'm going to give it my full attention.

When you come to the international law issue, I think what he was trying to say was, I don't even need to look at international law because my own morality is well within the bounds of international law. In other words, I --

CORNISH: But, here, let me ask you a question. They pulled out of 60 plus international organizations related to the U.N. They're just like, pull them hem back, we're not in.

But the reason why I'm caring so much about this is because of this clip I heard from Stephen Miller earlier in the week when he was asked about America's power in the world.

I want you to hear it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: We live in a world in which you can -- you can talk all you want about international niceties and everything else. But we live in a world, in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. These are the iron laws of the world that have existed since the beginning of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SONDLAND: Stephen loves hyperbole. And I can't -- I can't explain all of Stephen's utterances.

But getting back to President Trump.

CORNISH: I actually want to -- want you to combine the two. And as somebody who basically makes a living doing international niceties, right, like being a part of this world order, are they unraveling it in real time?

SONDLAND: No. First of all, the organizations, the 64 or 65 organizations from which they withdrew, a lot of those organizations are duplicative. A lot of them are simply wasting U.S. tax dollars. They're engaged in programs that this particular administration does not support.

[06:45:00]

And I -- when I was ambassador, the amount of money the State Department and its affiliates waste on things that I have no idea what the output or the end use or the end product is.

CORNISH: Yes.

SONDLAND: It's just been there forever and they keep spending the money and they keep doing it. At some point you have to say, enough already. Let's focus our efforts on what it is we were elected to do. And I say this for either party, a Democrat or a Republican president. And let's put all of our efforts in advancing the interests of the voters that elected us to office, and not simply going on and on and on with these legacy programs, many of which do nothing.

CORNISH: In the meantime, Greenland, Greenland, Greenland, which we keep hearing about.

SONDLAND: He's not invading Greenland with the military.

CORNISH: OK. What is he going to do?

SONDLAND: What he's going to do is, he loves to, like any real estate developer, what he loves to do is he loves to put an offer on the table that's ridiculous. Let me put it in money terms. If he wants to pay $10,000 for something that someone wants $20,000 for, you know what he's going to offer? He's not going to offer nine or eight or something. He's going to say, I'll give you $10. And people are going to say $10. That's crazy.

CORNISH: People look at this and they think what he does in that analogy is hit them in the face and threaten them. Like, you're Denmark. You're wondering why this is a conversation.

SONDLAND: Well, let's talk about --

CORNISH: Yes.

SONDLAND: Let's talk about Denmark for a minute. The United States is the primary funder of NATO. We can both agree on that. It's our treasure. It's been our boots on the ground in the past, largely. Other allies have certainly helped.

The Europeans have a long legacy, and I love the Europeans. My parents were both born in Germany. But they love to have their cake and eat it too. They want to play footsie with Russia. They want to play footsie with China. They don't want to neglect any potential revenue that they can achieve.

And so, when it comes to Greenland, what they've been doing is, they've been talking to Russia. They've been talking to China, quietly, but definitely. And Trump is saying, wait a minute, Greenland is an asset of NATO essentially. Forget about the United States. It's an asset of NATO. It's critical for our defense. Quit playing these games. If you're going to do this, we're going to take Greenland. And he says that in quotes, we're going to take Greenland.

Think about it. Multiple presidents have talked about Greenland. Now everyone is focused.

CORNISH: Yes, well we have a -- we have a deal, right, going back to the '50s. So, there is a way that they could have had this conversation without NATO partners freaking out.

SONDLAND: But the deal doesn't exclude the Russians and the Chinese. And that's really what he's trying to do. It's also what he's trying to do in Venezuela.

CORNISH: Does anyone else have questions before I let the ambassador go? He is -- was excited to be here in the morning, so I have to take advantage of a morning person.

SONDLAND: I'm always excited to be with you.

CORNISH: Yes. No, thank you so much.

You know, there is one more thing I want to ask you.

I noticed that five Republicans signed on to a war powers resolution conversation, right, just to advance a bill. Do you think there are people in Washington that are starting to say, gee, in Congress, we're supposed to make some of these decisions?

SONDLAND: I think these are bruised egos. I think that, what is the president supposed to do, have a 90 day debate about how he's going to topple Maduro? I mean, please.

The war powers -- first of all, we haven't declared war in decades formerly. Every president has been accorded a huge amount of deference by Congress in terms of the tactical, strategic and operational parts of conducting military operations. And you have some senators that, you know, are a little miffed because they weren't, you know, the president didn't pick up the phone two seconds before he toppled Maduro and said, by the way, I'm going to topple Maduro. So, even if he had done so, what are they going to do?

CORNISH: OK, Ambassador Sondland, thank you so much for being.

SONDLAND: Thanks for having me.

CORNISH: I appreciate it.

And if you missed any of that conversation, any part of the show from earlier, please know, we're a podcast. So, you have a minute. You can scan this QR code and that is where you will find CNN THIS MORNING, available anywhere you get your podcasts.

Coming up, is it illegal to film ICE? The administration wants you to think so. But what does the law say? We're going to lawyer up, next.

Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to continue to monitor, we're going to continue to document, because this is precisely the reason why we do that work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: We're going to talk to the woman who runs ICE Watch, a training program.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:52:38]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: ICE officers and agents approached the vehicle of the individual in question, who was blocking the officers in with her vehicle, and she had been stalking and impeding their work all throughout the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK, stalking or lawful monitoring? None of the above? It's still not clear what Renee Good was doing in the minutes before an ICE officer shot her to death in her car. Because of her killing, more than 500 Minnesotans attended an ICE Watch training session yesterday. That's according to a group called States at the Core, which says it has trained more than 10,000 people nationwide to monitor ICE activities. And their weapon of choice? The camera.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody, not even myself, has ever thought that I could possibly lose my life, until yesterday.

We are not impeding. We are just warning the communities of their presence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to continue to monitor. We're going to continue to document, because this is precisely the reason why we do that work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Want to bring in Jill Garvey because she's the executive director of States at the Core, and she has been talking to people about what's going on.

And I want to start, Jill, with just the training itself. What is it that you say people can do and what they can't do with their smartphones?

JILL GARVEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, STATES AT THE CORE: So, we really have three goals with training people in this type of tactic or activity, and that is to document what they're seeing, ideally with their phone camera, from a safe distance, to get as much information as they possibly can about what is happening when federal enforcement comes into their communities. The second thing is to potentially get some support to anyone who is being targeted so that they know their rights, can, you know, down the line get some legal support, potentially. The third thing is, we train people to keep everyone safe in that scenario. So, de-escalation training, how to really be a good bystander or take stock of the entire scenario and make sure that it is as safe as possible.

CORNISH: While we're talking here, we're showing a training video from a group called Witness. There are several groups that are encouraging people in this way.

The government, DHS, the vice president, elsewhere, is basically saying that this kind of activity is part of far-left agitation, that it's disruptive and that it is creating problems for ICE.

[06:55:01]

And I want to get your response to that.

GARVEY: We've heard this rhetoric for a long time. I think it's actually part of a longer pattern of distorting what is actually happening in these scenarios. I think you said this earlier, it's really an attempt to sort of obscure the fact that Americans have the right to record, to observe what public officials, any law enforcement is doing, in the public space, right?

So, that is -- saying stalking, we hear assaulting, we hear attacking, we hear obstructing, we hear it from top DHS officials. We hear it from Trump. We also hear it all the way down agents use these kinds of terms in the field to try to get observers to go away, right?

So, I think it's really an attempt to sort of create this false picture that people are not allowed to do this. And they are. It's part of their constitutional rights.

CORNISH: Jill, thank you so much for speaking with us. We hope we can have you back to the program.

GARVEY: OK, thanks for having me.

CORNISH: All right, so we want to have this conversation a little longer about the legality of taking video of ICE or other federal agents on the job. The Trump administration says it's a safety issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So, it is doxing them. It's videotaping them where they're at when they're out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK, so we are going to lawyer up with CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams.

Elliot, I wanted to bring this back because one of the legacies of the George Floyd era, and the conversation about police brutality, we -- there was no accountability in the end, no changes in laws for police.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

CORNISH: But what there was is a world of people who now realize that if you see law enforcement in action, you can stop with your phone and capture the moment.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CORNISH: And that, unfortunately, you might capture something quite serious.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CORNISH: How does what we're seeing now with ICE fit into that legacy?

WILLIAMS: Right. Under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, you have very broad, free rein to film pretty much whatever you want in public. It is absolutely legal to film law enforcement officers. It is absolutely illegal to film law enforcement officers for the purpose of threatening them or harming them or sharing their private information or, you know, sending out to networks to make sure that people get hurt. Now, that's a very, very specific crime of doxing, and of course that's illegal. But merely taking videos of people as you walk down the street, or even if law enforcement activity is happening, is one of the core protections of free speech under the First Amendment.

CORNISH: So, this is one of those things. The ACLU is accusing immigration agents of retaliating against people who record them. Can I hear from you guys? I know we're towards the end of the show,

but just like, how do you hear this conversation? Because for a lot of people this might be the only way they think that they can protest or be involved in this conversation. And the administration is saying, you're putting your own life at risk doing that.

JERUSALEM DEMSAS, FOUNDER AND EDITOR, "THE ARGUMENT": Yes, I feel like when there's so much increased dispute over basic facts, this type of videoing is going to become more and more important. I mean even the administration is using some bystander video to make the case that the -- the ICE officer was actually harmed.

And so, in many instances we're going to see this happening all the time. And also, it's interacting with A.I. video, where people are going to be dealing with fake videos and having to say, like, well, I'm a real person. I was there. I can actually document that I can -- that I shot this. People are becoming kind of citizen journalists.

And in some ways there's some problems with this because people, you know, it's unclear what training people are actually receiving. It's hard to know if they know when to be in a situation, when it crossed the line, et cetera.

CORNISH: Yes.

DEMSAS: But I think, in general, this is -- this is good. It's good that people are willing to document things. We know there are issues with witness testimony in general. And having video is actually really helpful to figure out the truth.

CORNISH: Yes. Rob, is every person filming an agitator?

ROB BLUEY, PRESIDENT AND EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE DAILY SIGNAL": Certainly not. No. I think some are, though, Audie. I mean clearly there are some who --

CORNISH: But do you think the administration thinks that?

BLUEY: Probably. I think that they would probably err more on the side of agitators.

You know, it reminds me of my earliest days as a reporter. I remember going to, you know, the scene of a car accident or something and trying to take photos of the police. Police are always resistant to, I think, being filmed. And so, even setting aside this particular incident, there's going to be a level of discomfort probably with law enforcement.

But we live in an age, as you indicated, where this is the reality.

CORNISH: Yes.

BLUEY: And we also need to be mindful of those A.I. fakes, because it's so easy for somebody to manipulate the video.

CORNISH: Noel, can I give the last word to you on this? NOEL KING, CO-HOST AND EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, "TODAY, EXPLAINED" PODCAST:

Yes. Yes. I mean, look, I love the Constitution and the First Amendment. I'm a journalist. Here's what --

CORNISH: (INAUDIBLE).

KING: So surprised to hear myself saying this. You can have the First Amendment right and they can shoot you anyway. And then what happens? You're dead, and there's an agent testifying that you were a threat. And this goes back to what we saw in Minneapolis. I don't know what you do with that, honestly.

CORNISH: I do want to raise it because I feel like there's a lot of people out there watching what's going on, and now they have a question in their minds of, if I go out, if I protest, if I use that First Amendment right, am I going to be accused of being part of the left wing network?

[07:00:15]

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. But I think one of the greatest evolutions in the last 10 or 15 years is the fact that everyone can now document the world around them.

CORNISH: Yes.

WILLIAMS: And it's a good thing. It just may lead to violence.

CORNISH: All right, you guys, thank you so much for talking about all this with us. Thank you for being with us. The headlines are next.