Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

GOP Senators Voice Concerns over Powell Probe; Zachary Shemtob is Interviewed bout the Transgender Athlete Case; Bobby Ghosh is Interviewed about Iran; Probe into Good's Ties to Activist Groups. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired January 13, 2026 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should all be concerned if the independence of the Fed is undermined.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): We got bigger issues to go after than this one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: The Republicans in Congress concerned over the probe into the chair of the Federal Reserve. Even some in the president's inner circle warn that this move could backfire.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me on CNN THIS MORNING.

It's half past the hour, and here's what's happening right now.

Senator Mark Kelly fighting back after the secretary of defense moved to cut Kelly's retirement pay and reduce his rank. That was in response to the video that Kelly participated in urging service members not to obey unlawful orders. In a new lawsuit, Kelly argues that it violates his First Amendment right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): This is really about all of us, including a lot of retired veterans out there who, if I didn't do this, would be, you know, worried about, hey, this secretary of defense, or a future one, coming after them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Pentagon officials said that they were aware of the lawsuit but wouldn't comment further.

And House Republicans are threatening to hold Bill and Hillary Clinton in contempt of Congress. The couple was subpoenaed to testify as part of the ongoing investigation into convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Neither has responded to the request.

And Mayor Zohran Mamdani standing with nurses as nearly 15,000 of them are on strike in New York City. He's calling it a fight for dignity and fairness. Union leaders are asking for safer staffing levels and better benefits. Hospitals say they've made significant changes, but that doing anything more would be too costly.

[06:35:02]

And there are more Republicans voicing their opposition to a criminal probe against Fed Chair Jerome Powell, including the president's own treasury secretary. A source tells CNN, Secretary Scott Bessent has told people he is unhappy with the criminal investigation opened by the Department of Justice into Powell, and that there are other Republicans who agree.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): I don't think Jay Powell is a criminal. I don't -- I don't like the idea of an investigation, a criminal investigation.

SEN. STEVE DAINES (R-MT): I support the independence of the -- of the -- of the Feds. And I hope that this investigation wraps up very, very quickly.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I will be shocked if he has done anything wrong.

The Federal Reserve of the United States and the executive branch of the United States get into a pissing contest. We don't need it. We need it like we need a hole in their head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK, group chat is back.

Jasmine, can I start with you? Because sometimes when, like, a source tells, I can't tell if it's because the person in the center of it wants everyone to know this without saying it out loud or if we really are hearing about some discontent.

JASMINE WRIGHT, CO-AUTHOR, NOTUS MORNING NEWSLETTER: Well, I think it could be both, right? I think you've seen Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent be the one person in the cabinet that has registered some minuscule pushback. Obviously, we know that he was involved in the idea to pull back some of those tariffs after April because of some concerns about the bond market, something that we know that President Trump follows closely. At other moments he has tried to push Trump perhaps in a different, maybe a little bit of a less direction, of course, because of not trying to spook the market and various things.

So, I think that this is kind of well within the Treasury secretary's lane.

Obviously, he has been trying to plan a way to kind of usher Jay Powell out and bring in -- bring in --

CORNISH: Yes. But he's going to be out in May. And so, I mean, "The Wall Street Journal" --

WRIGHT: Well, I mean --

CORNISH: They're calling -- "President Trump would do himself and the country a big favor by firing those responsible for this fiasco." They call it a "self-defeating fiasco."

The perception is, this was unnecessary. And you've got someone like Senator Tillis saying, well, I'm not going to vote on this other stuff you want approved. I mean there's just so many people saying, don't spend your time this way.

ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: This -- that's the biggest concern. And it's not even Tillis. I mean I think you -- all of those comments by other Republican senators as well was not as strong as what Senator Tillis said, but the same --

CORNISH: Yes, because he's willing to take action.

DAVIS: Yes. And he's not running again. And it's a whole different story.

We are on the countdown to four months for him not to be Fed chair anymore. Whether you agree with him or not. And this is an unwanted distraction. I just don't understand what happened.

WRIGHT: And is it going to lead him to staying on as governor longer, right?

DAVIS: Right.

WRIGHT: There was some idea that he would both step down --

CORNISH: As both.

WRIGHT: As both. And now people who know Jay Powell say that this is just going to incentivize him, perhaps, to stay even longer.

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, the American people are sitting at home going, what does this have to do with anything being cheaper for me? And what are we doing in D.C. when we're invading countries, folks are getting shot in our streets, and now we're going to go after the person in charge of the Fed. Most folks don't even know what the Fed is.

CORNISH: But the administration is arguing that it's his monetary policy. It's his policy that is preventing them from affecting the economy.

DAVIS: Hurting -- yes. That's hurting them.

ROCHA: But you just said, he'll be gone in four months. This is a stupid move because he's going to be gone in four months if he'd have left it alone.

CORNISH: I have a strange bedfellow for you.

DAVIS: I think --

ROCHA: Here we go.

CORNISH: Here is Ben Shapiro, co-founder of "The Daily Wire."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN SHAPIRO, CO-FOUNDER, "THE DAILY WIRE": Is there evidence that Powell was stealing money or embezzling? Well, what is the case here, in other words? And why is it that the Trump administration, the two people who he seems to be focused on very much at the Federal Reserve, are people who have opposed his agenda?

This is bad policy. You should not be targeting people based on specious investigations, if it turns out that it's specious. The president should not be intervening in Federal Reserve policy in this way. All it does is create uncertainty in an economy that is doing quite well by all available reports.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK, you guys, group chat, please stay with me.

Coming up, we're going to be talking about the Supreme Court. They're set to hear arguments on the battle over transgender athletes and whether trans girls can play on girls sports teams.

So, the cases at the center of the fight include athletes in Idaho and West Virginia. Becky Pepper-Jackson, a 15-year-old high schooler, would be the only known athlete affected in West Virginia. Lower courts ruled in her favor, but that's a long shot in the conservative majority high court.

So, speaking to CNN on the uphill battle, the teen says, quote, "I know that I can handle it, and it's never crossed my mind to stop, because I know I'm doing it for everybody."

Arguments are expected to center on whether these bans on trans athletes violate federal civil rights protections.

Joining me now, Zachary Shemtob, who is the executive editor at SCOTUSblog.

I'm a big reader. Zach, so, thank you so much for being with us.

ZACHARY SHEMTOB, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, SCOTUSBLOG: Glad to be here.

CORNISH: So, just so people know the state of play, we got upwards of 27 states who already have some kind of transgender athlete ban on the books.

[06:40:05] Can you talk about what this current case, what it hinges on that could affect these other laws?

SHEMTOB: So, we have two cases here. One in Idaho, one in West Virginia, as you said. As for one of them, the challenger is Lindsay Hecox. She's a transgender female, now 24 years old, filed this suit when seeking to try out for the women's track and cross country teams at Boise State University. The other one is B.P.J., also a transgender female, a 15-year-old high school student whose mother went to court on B.P.J.'s behalf because she could not participate on the girls -- anticipated she could not participate on the girls middle school sports team. This was because of two laws, one in Idaho, one in West Virginia, which effectively banned the ability of transgender women and girls to participate on girls sports teams.

CORNISH: I want to ask you about the 2020 ruling that was about workplace discrimination against transgender people and how that is the backdrop to this conversation, because this is different. We're talking about minors.

SHEMTOB: That's correct. So, there's really two things. So, the bans are being challenged through in two ways. First is under Title Nine and the other one is under the equal protection clause. So, kind of shifting to Title Nine, which is a statute. In 2020, you had Bostock versus United States. And in this case it was a six-three decision written by Justice Gorsuch, who is considered a conservative on the court. And in that case, the majority held that a funeral home had fired a transgender employee, and this violated Title Seven of the Civil Rights Act. And Title Seven bars employment discrimination because of sex. So, that's similar in language to Title Nine, which bars discrimination on the basis of sex. And according to Justice Gorsuch, it's impossible to discriminate against a person for being transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex. And so, the idea here is that these bans discriminate against transgender persons on the basis of their sex, as the court said it was inappropriate in the Bostock case.

CORNISH: But I don't get the sense that the court has opened the door further to this kind of classification. And I'm curious about, you were talking about the different justices that you'd be watching. You mentioned Gorsuch. But also Kavanaugh, Roberts. Can you talk about other people who you think you're going to be listening for their questions?

SHEMTOB: Yes, that's a great question. So, Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, excuse me, Gorsuch and Roberts voted in the majority in Bostock. Kavanaugh did not. He dissented. So, I think that the big question is, will Gorsuch and Kavanaugh, when it comes to Title Nine, draw a difference between that and employment discrimination? And one possible difference that Gorsuch and Roberts may draw is that these cases deal with athletics, which are different than employment discrimination, obviously, and they're also dealing with youth as opposed to adults. So, it's going to be very interesting to see what questions Gorsuch asks and if he focuses on those kind of differences between what we're seeing here and employment discrimination. Roberts, same thing since he voted in the majority. I should also mention that in Skrmetti, which was a case decided only

last term, that was under the equal protection clause, and the justices were more skeptical for a number of reasons towards transgender positions. In that case actually Roberts and Gorsuch voted in the majority against expanding in that context transgender rights. So, they kind of have a mixed record here.

CORNISH: Yes.

SHEMTOB: It's going to be very interesting to see what types of questions they ask.

CORNISH: Yes, it's interesting watching this case law being built in real time.

Zachary Shemtob, thank you so much for talking with us.

SHEMTOB: Absolutely.

CORNISH: And if you missed any of that conversation, you want to learn more, we are a podcast. So, this is your time to take a beat, scan the QR code right now. Yes, people actually do this. You can find CNN THIS MORNING. It's available anywhere you get your podcasts.

Next on CNN, "The New York Times' out with new reporting on the ICE shooting in Minneapolis. What part of the investigation is focused on may surprise you.

[06:45:04]

Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: President Trump is very good at, is always keeping all of his options on the table. And airstrikes would be one of the many, many options that are on the table for the commander in chief.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Does the president have any good options when it comes to Iran?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CORNISH: The president has repeatedly warned of military intervention in Iran as the country cracks down on protests. Some Democrats worry if any military strikes do happen that could backfire, strengthening regime hardliners rather than supporting democracy in Iran.

[06:50:06]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): U.S. military action in Iran would be a massive mistake. It would have the effect of giving the Iranian regime the ability to say it's the U.S. that's screwing our country up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: That concern is central to a new "Time" magazine op-ed, which argues that the president real has no good options on Iran.

Joining us now to discuss, Bobby Ghosh, columnist and geopolitics analyst.

Welcome back to the program, Bobby.

BOBBY GHOSH, COLUMNIST AND GEOPOLITICS ANALYST: Hi, Audie.

CORNISH: So, I want to just flag for people what you wrote here, where you talked about that "there's no military option that delivers what Trump has promised." You said, a "symbolic strike is too weak to matter. Decapitation risks installing a junta." And "the sustained campaign courts state collapse and regional conflagration."

So, there's a lot to unpack there. But taking strikes off the table, can you talk about this idea of decapitation or a sustained campaign?

GHOSH: Well, so, the -- because Venezuela is so recent and so current, there is -- there is one school of thought that they might try -- that Trump may be interested in achieving something similar in Iran, where you remove the top leader, whether by a -- whether by having him sort of killed with a missile strike or extracted, which is much -- which is much harder to do in a place like Tehran.

And then what happens after that? Well, the regime in Iran is quite different from the one in Venezuela. It is much larger. It's been there much longer. It has a much larger following in the country. It has a larger and firmer base on which it stands. So, just removing the top leadership is not necessarily likely to achieve the outcome.

Now a sustained bombing campaign likewise could do a lot of damage to the Iranian military. But if it's not followed up by boots on the ground, and nobody, not even the president, is suggesting that that is a likely possibility, is not going to really change matters.

Now, what we need to remember is what Trump is promising here. He's promising, in his own words, to rescue the protesters. That requires -- that's a big, big promise. And if he's -- if he means to keep that promise, that's not something that can be done from the air alone.

CORNISH: Yes.

GHOSH: That would require a much greater participation of the American military, including boots on the ground, than there seems to be any appetite for.

CORNISH: I want to play for you what we heard from the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, who was asked about diplomacy and its role here.

Here's what she had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Diplomacy is always the first option for the president. He's told all of you last night that what you're hearing publicly from the Iranian regime is quite differently from the messages the administration is receiving privately. And I think the president has an interest in exploring those messages.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: How do you interpret that?

GHOSH: Well, the suggestion is that the Iranians have somehow reached out, or there is some kind of communication with the regime. The problem here is that both sides have a record of dissimulation, right? The Trump administration often will make indirect claims to this sort of thing, which turn out not to be based on any reality. And on the Iranian side, well, they have a long tradition of offering talks when they are under pressure just to buy themselves more time.

This is a regime that is under enormous pressure from its own people, from the economic circumstances, and now from the attention of the world. And so, in these kinds of situations, it's not unusual for the regime to reach out and say, hey, we want to talk. And let's talk -- let's do the diplomatic thing while buying themselves time to figure out how to respond to the protests.

So, I am -- I'm not holding my breath that this will result in actual diplomacy, or that that kind of diplomacy will lead to some sort of change, which is what the Iranian people, which is what these protesters definitely want. And I don't think they are holding their breath either.

CORNISH: Yes.

GHOSH: We see every day, despite the blackout of the regime, we see images and we are hearing of the enormous courage of hundreds of thousands of Iranians, millions, perhaps, who are taking on this regime. They're not waiting for an outcome of diplomacy. They're not waiting for the American president to come to their aid. They seem determined to try and get the change they want through their own actions. And that's something to respect and try to strengthen.

CORNISH: OK, that's Bobby Ghosh.

Thank you so much, Bobby.

GHOSH: Anytime, Audie.

CORNISH: All right, back here to the U.S., where the mayor of Minneapolis is calling for an independent investigation of the fatal shooting involving an ICE officer in his city last week. The FBI is reviewing what led up to the incident.

[06:55:03] Federal agents also seem to be pointing their investigation at the person who died. According to "The New York Times," the probe is looking into the history of Renee Good to see if she has connections to activist groups. The news comes as the White House has repeatedly labeled Good as an agitator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This administration will continue to stand wholeheartedly by the brave men and women of ICE, including that officer in Minneapolis who was absolutely justified in using self-defense against a lunatic who was part of a group, an organized group, to interject and to impede on law enforcement operations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Group chat is back.

Ashley, I wanted to start with you because during the break we were talking about what it means, how is this different from the Black Lives Matter movement? And I was arguing that, in that case, people would often point to the victims as having criminal histories. They were being pulled over or whatever. And that they're weirdly trying to do this with a, like, mother of three. And is that working? Like, how is the public going to view tearing apart Good's history versus us -- versus what's learning about the officer?

DAVIS: Well, I don't think the officer's going to -- I mean, I don't think there's going to be any repercussions to him. I really think that he, from the videos that have been shown, I don't know what the case would be there. But I do agree with you 100 percent that the agitators, or protesters, are completely different look as kind of the days of the defend the police days and others.

But I still think that there's half of this country that does not -- that really support and believe in our military and our -- and our law enforcement and our police officers of any type, that they are not going to like the protesters. And listen, we can't -- I mean the pepper spray talking point these days, I mean if you're up in these people's faces that are trained to hurt and trained to protect, they're going to pepper spray you. And so I just think that --

CORNISH: Yes. Having been pepper sprayed during crowd control, not great. And that's actually, you don't --

DAVIS: Well, then they -- then they shouldn't attack an officer.

CORNISH: You know, there's a couple rules around crowd control and how that's supposed to work.

DAVIS: Yes. Exactly.

CORNISH: But I want to expand on your point of view. We heard from Texas Republican Chip Roy earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): They want to stand up and go stand in front of vehicles in some weird flex with their Coke bottle glasses, these middle-aged white women in Minnesota that want to stop the enforcement of the law. Of course the president should use the Insurrection Act from 1807 to say, you know what, we can go out and stop this so we can enforce the law to protect the people of the United States under the Constitution. We, the average American, want that. And I think that they ought to use that and enforce the law.

ROCHA: As somebody who has been pepper sprayed and who has participated in protests, that's our right as American citizens. And I wholeheartedly want to celebrate our military. And I've always back the blue, as you would. But that don't mean they can kill unarmed American people. And I know there's a difference of opinion between me and Ashley in the way that that woman used her car, but I think the American people, at the end of the day, are going to judge this, and they're going to be on my side, because you see what you can see. And I just don't think it's right killing unarmed folks.

CORNISH: And concern --

DAVIS: What did you do to get pepper sprayed, more importantly?

ROCHA: Oh, you don't want to know.

CORNISH: Yes, but I think -- yes, that point of view that's always like, well, what did you do to get in trouble? It's a little bit like not America. I mean occasionally you're allowed to protest. I thought this was the whole point.

DAVIS: But you can't break the law either.

CORNISH: Yes, but --

ROCHA: I was in a Seattle protest over the environment. And they were -- they were pepper spraying everybody because that's what they did back in the '90s.

CORNISH: Yes. And for the record, I was pepper sprayed in a Red Sox rally, OK. So, settle down.

(CROSS TALK)

CORNISH: Give me a break.

WRIGHT: That's actually --

CORNISH: Give me a break.

OK, so, I want to talk about what's in your group chat because we're heading into the week.

Jasmine, what are you hearing?

WRIGHT: My group chat is actually about "Traitors" right now, the show on Peacock, because it is so good.

CORNISH: Which is a reality TV show led by Alan Cumming. Yes.

WRIGHT: It's a reality show where they -- it's an obligation of all of these reality stars that were on reality at some point, are survivors. And they basically just go against each other and they try to win a quarter of a million dollars. And it is literally the funniest thing ever. It's so good. I think everyone should watch it.

CORNISH: It's like grown up "Clue."

WRIGHT: But also the Golden Globes because "Sinners" was robbed.

CORNISH: OK, "Sinners" was robbed. I can cosign on that.

WRIGHT: Thank you.

CORNISH: Also, Chuck, your group chat?

ROCHA: Look, in my group chat it's, where you been? And I was lucky enough to get to go to Africa with my beautiful wife over the holidays. And if you haven't gone out and seen this world, you should get out and see some of this world.

DAVIS: Oh.

WRIGHT: Well, that's beautiful.

CORNISH: Awe.

ROCHA: As a kid that grew up in a trailer park, I really appreciated getting to see other aspects of other cultures and just getting out and learning about everything that's going on in Rwanda and Tanzania. And it was -- it was really eye opening. And it's made me appreciate being an American and that we should really look for commonality.

CORNISH: All right, Ashley.

DAVIS: Look how cute you are. So, I have to have a moment of silence for my Steelers. They did really bad last night.

ROCHA: Pittsburgh Steelers.

CORNISH: Pittsburgh, a moment of silence.

DAVIS: You know, I went to bed because I had to get up this morning at 4:00 to spend time with you guys, but I'm glad I did because they did really bad.

[07:00:04]

But you're a Steeler fan too, kind of.

ROCHA: I am. I am. My grandsons live in Pittsburgh and I was at the Steelworkers Union. It was a bad night for Steelers fans.

CORNISH: OK, I feel for both of you.

WRIGHT: Wait, can I shout out the Chicago Bears? (INAUDIBLE).

CORNISH: No, Chicago. Chicago.

(CROSS TALK)

CORNISH: You guys, you get to -- you get to keep your mugs, OK, because I feel bad.

Thank you so much for waking up with us. I'm Audie Cornish. And we've got the news headlines for you next.