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CNN Tonight
Botching the Job; Health Care Divide; Manmade Disaster; Eminent Domain
Aired November 19, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the Obama stimulus plan. How many jobs does almost $800 billion buy? Don't ask the government. Its figures have been faulty at best.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The (INAUDIBLE) was riddled with inaccuracies and contradictions.
ROBERTS: What is the truth? Why is there so much confusion?
A short lived celebration...
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERTS: Senate Democrats divided over the $849 billion health care plan concerns tonight there won't be enough votes. Will Democrats kill their own health care plan?
Also, the storm after the storm, a federal court says the Army, not Mother Nature is to blame for the death and destruction in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. They knew the levees could fail and did nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people of the city of New Orleans are vindicated.
ROBERTS: The landmark ruling that could cost the government billions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN TONIGHT. Live from New York, here now John Roberts.
ROBERTS: Good evening and thanks for being with us.
Another potential body blow to-the record number of Americans without jobs, more than a million people are due to lose their unemployment benefits at the end of the year all because of some confusion in Congress. The Obama administration seems confused as well, struggling to explain its claim that the almost $800 billion stimulus plan created jobs in places that don't even exist. Kitty Pilgrim looks into why the government just can't seem to get it straight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How could it get to this because of a slip-up by Congress more than one million Americans may run out of unemployment benefits by January 1st unless something is done fast. The National Employment Law project which supports the extension of unemployment benefits says the congressional process got bogged down. And now they are nearly out of time.
ANDREW STETTNER, NATL. EMPLOYMENT LAW PROJECT: You know I think that congressmen are dealing with a lot of issues and sometimes you know they kind of get, you know, things confused, where they are going. You know, so I think the leaders, you know, and the parties knew what was going on and -- but the calendar kind of got going fast. And with everything going on in Washington, there's a chance this might be a slip up.
PILGRIM: Some nine million people are currently on jobless benefits. And the number of unemployed is at a 26-year high. That unemployment rate of 10.2 percent is expected to continue well into next year. Time is running out. Congress has less than four weeks on its schedule to legislate this year.
And speaking of government miscalculations, according to the Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity, a watchdog group, the government Web site Recovery.gov found this -- $6.4 billion for 30,000 jobs in 440 non existent districts were recording on the Web site, roughly five to 10 percent off what the government was claiming. A congressional panel today grilled the head of the Recovery, Accountability and Transparency Board responsible for the reporting.
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: Is there a master list of who was supposed to get the stimulus money? Do you have like a master list? Here is who is supposed to get the money?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have that.
CHAFFETZ: That's just mind boggling to me that we don't have a list of even who is supposed to get the money.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, all this is very not good timing. January is typically the toughest month for job hunters. With unemployment above 10 percent it's critical that unemployment benefits be extended as fast as possible or Americans will pay the price for the gross miscalculations by Congress -- John.
ROBERTS: So a couple of questions, Kitty. Will Congress be able to pass the legislation necessary to extend the jobless benefits into the New Year and 440 non existing congressional districts, how did that happen?
PILGRIM: Yes, well let me handle it one by one. On the unemployment benefits it's really not clear because there's this very short window of the legislative calendar that it can be done. And it's not clear whether it will be a stand-alone bill or whether it will be part of a larger jobs bill that's going to be put forward by the Obama administration.
As far as these sort of phantom districts, it's a reporting slip up. A lot of people were not -- there's no real oversight on the reporting. Actually the head of the GAO said one in five of the reports that were filed were not -- there was no oversight by an agency, so there were a lot of clerical errors, misstatements, et cetera, et cetera.
ROBERTS: You know there are organizations that encourage members of Congress to read the bills that they're passing. In terms of the job benefits bill, did they just not read the fine print?
PILGRIM: Yes -- no, I think it was more the timing of it was just miscalculated that the people we talked to said the calendar got away from them that they didn't realize they were actually at this moment where they couldn't get a new benefits bill passed or they may not be able to.
ROBERTS: A potential big oops for hundreds of thousands of people.
PILGRIM: Well yes, hopefully they can redress this very quickly.
ROBERTS: Hopefully so. Kitty Pilgrim, thanks.
For the Senate Democrats it was a short-lived victory lap, just a day after Democrats introduced their massive $849 billion health care plan there is already dissent among the ranks. Debate over the measure is set to start this weekend. And there are major sticking points. A controversial public option and the high price tag just to name a few and as our congressional correspondent Dana Bash explains some real uncertainty over whether Democrats will be able to convince enough of their own to sign on.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senate Democrats just unveiled their health care Bill and they are already celebrating. Yes, that's a "v" for victory sign. But this feel-good rally masks huge challenges that lie ahead, flash points that divide Democrats in the House and the Senate like taxes to pay for health reform. The House passed bill taxes all Americans making $500,000 or more. That's a nonstarter with many Senate Democrats, so their plan taxes high-cost insurance plans, but many House Democrats oppose that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a huge problem.
BASH: Democrat Joe Courtney says a tax on so-called Cadillac health plan would really hit working class Americans, especially union members.
REP. JOE COURTNEY (D), CONNECTICUT: Certainly the impact on households will be Chevy drivers, not Cadillac drivers.
BASH: Then there's immigration. House Democrats prohibit illegal immigrants from using taxpayer money for health care. The Senate Democrats bill goes further, banning illegal immigrants from buying any insurance even with their own money. Angry Hispanic Caucus members vow to block that from a final bill.
REP. LOUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: That seems to me to be mean spirited, to be a dehumanizing point of view. If they have their own money and not a taxpayer dollar is going to be used, why don't we allow them to provide it?
BASH: And there's abortion. The House Democrats measure bans abortion coverage in a government run plan and in private insurance accepting taxpayer money. The Senate bill is less restrictive allowing the HHS secretary to decide whether abortion would be covered in a public plan and permitting abortion coverage in private plans as long as taxpayer money is separated out.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: This is a health care bill, it's not an abortion Bill, as in keeping with what the tradition has been in our country for more than 30 years.
BASH: Anti abortion Democrats in the House disagree.
REP. MARCY KAPTUR (D), OHIO: I think it will make it much more difficult for the bill to ultimately be passed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Now abortion restrictions that are now in the Senate bill were originally considered by the House, but anti abortion Democrats threatened to vote no and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops they said that they wanted much more strong constraints on abortion language in the House bill, and that's why it was changed. And a spokesman for the very powerful Catholic Bishops, John, they say that they will release a letter tomorrow with their opinion on the Senate bill -- John.
ROBERTS: And what's it going to take, Dana, for the Senate majority leader to get those 60 votes that he needs on Saturday night to take this bill to debate on the floor?
BASH: It is going to take a whole lot of pressure, a whole lot of arm twisting. It looks as though, at this point, it looks as though there is just about one Democratic senator, Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas, who is the hold out. There were two other Democrats, Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Mary Landrieu of Louisiana they are giving much more positive statements about the need to at least begin debate, which will be that vote on Saturday night. Blanche Lincoln, she said I want 72 hours to read the bill. That's why the vote is on Saturday night. She's not saying whether she will vote yes or no. Democratic leaders are cautiously optimistic, but she's got a tough reelection battle next year and she is in a very tough position. A lot of people back home do not want her to support it her leadership bill at all.
ROBERTS: Dana Bash on Capitol Hill tonight -- Dana, thanks so much.
BASH: Thank you. ROBERTS: We told you about the millions of dollars being spent by the health care lobby on the health care bill, now a watchdog group reveals some surprising statistics about the revolving door of government and the financial industry.
According to a report by Public Citizen, more than 900 former government workers including 70 former members of Congress are now peddling their influence for financial services companies. The list of regulators turned rainmakers include some of Washington's biggest names like former speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, former House Majority Leader Dick Gephardt, and former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott. There are at least 52 lobbyists who worked or served on congressional committees that will decide on new rules for the financial services industry.
Down the street at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, President Obama's promise to change how Washington works, the long tradition of political patronage seems to have slipped through the cracks. A number of the president's fat cat political contributors have been given plum (ph) jobs as ambassadors in some of the world's great locations.
Take Nicole Avant, she is a member of the famous Motown Family. She bundled up to $800,000 for the Obama campaign and is now enjoying the weather in the Bahamas as its new ambassador. Then there's Charles Rivkin, the California based television executive was gifted the gem of all ambassadorships. His $800,000 bundle sent him to Paris, France. President Obama's nearly 80 ambassadorships, more than half have been political appointments, money and politics -- not much has changed after all.
Coming up, four years after Hurricane Katrina a court says the Army is to blame for the death and destruction in New Orleans. The ruling could cost the government billions.
And the latest fight over eminent domain, another case of David versus Goliath. A group of New Yorkers could have their property seized so a pro-basketball team can have a new arena. Is that fair?
Also the single most polarizing issue in the health care debate, we'll talk to one of the senators pushing hard for the public option.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: There is going to be a show down on Capitol Hill on Saturday night. The United States Senate will hold its first vote on health care legislation this coming weekend. Republicans vow to block passage of the measure, but Democrats say they do have the votes to prevail.
Among them Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio who joins us now -- Senator, thanks for being with us. You are one of the foremost proponents of a public option in the Senate health care bill. Why is a public option so important to you?
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: Well, it's important for a lot of reasons. First of all in southwest Ohio, in Dayton, in Cincinnati area especially, in Butler (ph), Claremont (ph), in Warren Counties (ph), two insurance companies have 85 percent of the market. That means lower quality because of little competition and higher prices.
You put the public option in there it gives people choice. They don't have to choose the public option, but if they choose one of the private options instead, one of the private companies, it will be a better plan because of the competition with public option. Second, the public option saves money because of the competition.
It will save taxpayer money. It's only an option. Nobody has to choose it. And lastly the public option keeps the insurance companies honest. Just like nobody has ever been excluded from Medicare because of a pre-existing condition, nobody will be excluded from the public option because of a pre-existing condition and all kinds of people are -- can't get insurance because of -- because of a preexisting condition. So it'll simply make this bill better, make this law better, make insurance better.
ROBERTS: On that point the fact that the public option is, as you say, optional. How does that guarantee coverage?
BROWN: Well it guarantees coverage because everybody will be required to get coverage. They will go to into the insurance exchange. They'll be able to choose, if they live in Ohio, they can choose a nonprofit Medical Mutual (ph). They could choose Well Point (ph). They could choose Aetna or Cigna or they could choose the public option.
People will have the choice and everybody will be getting insurance if they are uninsured now in the insurance exchange. Again, choosing the public option or choosing how ever many choices there are in the insurance industry among the private insurance plans.
ROBERTS: Of course the big question between now and Saturday night, with the public option in the Senate health care bill, how do you get to 60 votes to proceed with debate because you've got at least three Democrats who are wavering and you've got one Independent who says he won't vote for a bill that's got a public option in it.
BROWN: Well to start with Senator Lieberman said he's going to vote for the motion to proceed, which puts the bill on the floor and then the amendments can be heard. So we will get all -- no Democratic senator or Independent who has been a Democratic vice presidential nominee, Senator Lieberman, none of them, in the end, in my mind will want to be on the wrong side of history.
They won't want to vote to kill the most important domestic initiative of their careers, the most important vote that they will ever cast they don't want to kill that on a procedural vote. So they will put it on the floor, then we have the debates, and then we'll see what happens. But I think then once it's on the floor everybody has a chance -- if you are against the public option, try an amendment to kill it.
If you are against the insurance reforms as the Republicans are, because they're always enthralled (ph) with the insurance industry let them try to strip out -- let them try to put back in pre-existing condition and denial of coverage and discrimination against women. Let them try. It's a full, open debate. Then we'll see what happens and then two or three weeks from now we have the final vote and we'll move forward.
ROBERTS: Now the Congressional Budget Office has scored this bill, says it will cost $849 billion, but will over 10 years save $130 billion off of the deficit. But at the same time, the CBO pointed out in a letter to Senate Majority Leader Reid that quote, "in precision of the calculation great degree of uncertainty inherent in health care reform scoring", so you can you guarantee to Americans that the cost of the bill is going to be the cost of the bill?
BROWN: Well, you can't guarantee anything in this business or any other in difficult times like this, but I can tell you something that the CBO never scores and the CBO always errs on the side of caution. And they don't, for instance, count it as a positive, all the money that we are going to save from Senator Harkin's (ph) wellness and prevention section of the bill.
All the kind of cost savings that are going to come out of all these programs that keep people out of the hospital longer and once they are in the hospital and they are discharged, the money we save because we work with those patients, those first 30 days when they are most likely under the present system to go back in the hospital, that we keep them healthier those first 30 days so they're less likely to.
None of those savings are scored by CBO. So this is a very conservative way they've looked at it. The savings will be much, much more. There's grumbling every day from Democrats here that the CBO won't score all the savings we are going to inject into the system with the public option, the savings that will be injected into the system with all the prevention and wellness programs that we are working on.
ROBERTS: All right, well we'll be watching to see if you get those 60 votes...
BROWN: Thank you.
ROBERTS: ... vote on Saturday night. Senator Sherrod Brown, thanks for being with us.
BROWN: Thanks.
ROBERTS: Just ahead, he's the last man standing, we'll tell you about one man's battle against the powerful forces that are trying to bulldoze his home in the name of business development.
And while the victims of Hurricane Katrina applaud a judge's decision as justice long overdue, its taxpayers who will be paying the bill for what some are calling a manmade disaster.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ROBERTS: Inaction by government followed by an act of God. A federal judge today ruled that the flooding following Hurricane Katrina was a man-made disaster. The harshly worded ruling said the Army Corps of Engineers failed to protect the city of New Orleans. Ed Lavandera is in New Orleans tonight where those who lost everything are demanding payback from the government.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're celebrating in New Orleans, four years after Hurricane Katrina a judge has ruled that negligence by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers led to deadly flooding that devastated thousands of homes across the lower Ninth Ward and St. Bernard Parish.
PIERCE O'DONNELL, ATTORNEY: As a result of this victory, at least 100,000 local residents and businesses and the two affected areas of St. Bernard Parish and the lower Ninth Ward will finally get justice.
LAVANDERA: At the heart of this legal battle is a canal known as Mr. Go (ph). It's actually called the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet. When it opened in 1968, critics called it one of the biggest catastrophes in the country. The disaster happened when Hurricane Katrina overwhelmed the canal.
KENT LATTIMORE, ST. BERNARD PARISH RESIDENT: It's a little bit too late. But at least -- at least it's out there and you know we won, so I'm ecstatic.
LAVANDERA: Kent Lattimore, Tanya Smith, along with Anthony and Lucille Fronds (ph) just won the first Katrina related legal fight with the federal government. A judge awarded them more than $700,000.
TANYA SMITH, ST. BERNARD PARISH RESIDENT: I lost things I can't get back. You know my life, my children's lives were completely turned upside down. And what could have been moderate damage became complete devastation because they turned a deaf ear.
LAVANDERA: Their victory paves the way for as many as 100,000 other people to join in a class action lawsuit against the Army Corp of Engineers. That could cost the government untold billions of dollars.
JOE BRUNO, ATTORNEY: Unfortunately, the American taxpayers have to pay for the gross malfeasance of the Army Corps of Engineers. We are not asking for anything different than other victims of government negligence have asked for in the past.
LAVANDERA: The federal government has already pumped at least $110 billion into rebuilding the Gulf Coast region. These lawsuits could very likely be added to that bill. Some government watchdog groups say it's a frustrating burden for taxpayers.
STEVE ELLIS, TAXPAYERS FOR COMMON SENSE: I'm not saying that these people shouldn't be paid. I think they should be paid. I think the problem is, is that essentially this comes back to bad actions by the Congress and by the Corps of Engineers and we are paying through the nose for this.
LAVANDERA: Tanya Smith has rebuilt her home in St. Bernard Parish; she lives there now with her two sons.
(on camera): Do you think you are actually going to see this money?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think eventually, we may. But you know I'll probably be a grandmother by then. But, I would hope so.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA: It appears likely that the federal government will appeal this ruling so the case appears far from over at this point. Because of that, the Army Corps of Engineers is not commenting on specific allegations coming out because of this verdict. And John many people here in New Orleans believe this case will eventually make its way to the Supreme Court.
ROBERTS: But if, if the people -- if the plaintiffs here do prevail, Ed, is it likely that there are a lot of other people who will try to jump on the back of this lawsuit and get their pound of flesh from the government?
LAVANDERA: Oh absolutely they've got -- the lawyers who handled this particular case have the class action lawsuit ready to go. And that could involve up to 100,000 people. Not everyone who was flooded out by Hurricane Katrina is eligible. You have to have been in that area (INAUDIBLE) in the lower Ninth Ward area and as well as the St. Bernard Parish area as well, so these lawyers are urging the federal government to sit down and negotiate and not draw this out to a long trial.
ROBERTS: You have to be in a certain area, but as you said that could involve an awful lot of people. Ed Lavandera for us tonight -- Ed, thanks so much.
New York's highest court is about to rule on whether the state can seize private property to build a basketball arena. The case is similar to one in New London (ph), Connecticut that made its way -- all the way to the Supreme Court in 2005. The planned complex in that instance never materialized. Ines Ferre tells us the far reaching implications for home owners across the country for eminent domain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
INES FERRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With an 0-12 start to the basketball season, the New Jersey Nets have been on a losing streak, so is their biggest opponent. It's not another team. It's Daniel Goldstein. Goldstein hopes an appellate court will overturn a lower court's approval of using eminent domain to make way for a new arena for the team in Brooklyn, New York.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And here you have -- would have this tract, this wall of skyscrapers and an arena dividing these neighborhoods.
FERRE: Goldstein is the last resident left in his building. Much of the neighborhood has already been cleared and preliminary construction is under way. Since 2006, Goldstein and his family have been fighting to stay in their three-bedroom condo.
DANIEL GOLDSTEIN, PLAINTIFF: There's no good rationalization, no meaningful rationalization to take people's homes to benefit a developer. That's what's going on here. This is not about some great public use. This is not a road or a hospital or a park or a railway. Those things serve a public use.
FERRE: Developer Bruce Rattiner (ph) plans to build a 22-acre complex, including an arena for the NBA's Nets, residential towers, offices and retail space. Since the announcement in 2003, Rattiner (ph) and New York government officials have insisted the project will benefit the public.
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), NEW YORK CITY: It will create 10,000 new jobs during construction and thousands of new jobs to run the facility.
FERRE: But Goldstein contends the project will be a repeat of New London (ph), Connecticut. In 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court said New London (ph) could condemn property and relocate residents to make way for a private development. Developers were trying to improve land around the headquarters of the pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. But blaming an economic downturn, the development never materialized. Last week, Pfizer announced it was moving out of New London (ph) in addition to cutting jobs. Since the Supreme Court ruling, 43 states have changed their laws to better protect property owners. New York State is among the few that have not, but Goldstein still has hope.
GOLDSTEIN: It looks wrong. It feels wrong. And it is wrong. And so I'm confident we are going to win.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FERRE: Meanwhile, the respondent, the Empire State Development Corporation said in a statement that it expects the court to recognize the many substantial public benefits of the project and dismiss the lawsuit brought forth by Goldstein and eight other plaintiffs -- John, obviously both sides very confident that each one will win.
ROBERTS: Well you have to be when you go into a lawsuit, I guess.
FERRE: That's right. And that decision is expected any day now.
ROBERTS: All right, we'll look forward to that decision -- Ines, thanks.
Still ahead, an amazing school success story, how kids are making the grade, make that an A-plus for their outstanding performance.
And mass murder at Fort Hood, tonight the Pentagon responds to charges the military missed the warning signs of a massacre.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN TONIGHT live from New York.
ROBERTS: Where lives lost because of warnings were missed. The massacre at Fort Hood continues to raise alarming questions tonight.
CNN's Brian Todd reports Pentagon promises to prevent the kind of lapses that may have led to the massacre at the military post.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More indications that potential safety nets may have either broken down or were never in place to prevent Nidal Hasan from allegedly murdering 13 people at Fort Hood.
At the first congressional hearing into the shootings, discussions on what may have been the failure of law enforcements, military and counter terror officials to communicate with each other even though it was discovered last year that Hasan had corresponded with a radical Muslim cleric.
Former Homeland Security adviser, Fran Townsend, A CNN contributor, indicated some restrictions on the agencies' cooperation are just too unwieldy.
FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, FORMER BUSH HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: But the rules become so cumbersome that they're discouraging so people don't do it.
TODD: General John Keane was commanding general at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina during the trial of two white soldiers for the murder of a black couple. King said after that incident the military took steps to flag racial extremism but never came up with anything like that on radical religious behavior.
Keane was asked another key question on why Hasan kept getting promoted even when his superiors reportedly had information on his extremist views and incompetence.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: Do you think that political correctness may have played some role in the fact these dots were not connected?
GEN JOHN KEANE (RET.), FORMER ARMY VICE CHIEF OF STAFF: Yes. Absolutely. And, also, I think a factor here is Hasan's position as an officer and also his position as a psychiatrist contributed to that.
TODD: Most of these security and terrorist experts agreed that Nidal Hasan is likely someone who became self-radicalized. A loan wolf influenced by militant extremism but not directed by anyone to kill. But connecting those dots before the tragedy, one expert said, may have been impossible. BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM ANALYST, RAND CORP.: We're just not very good at predicting human violence. We don't have an x-ray for a man's soul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: But Brian Jenkins said, looking back, it does appear that Hasan had what he called obvious personality problems that he channeled into a deadly fanaticism -- John?
ROBERTS: Brian Todd reporting for us tonight. So how exactly did the government fail to connect the dots prior to the Fort Hood massacre?
Former White House security advisor and CNN national security contributor, Fran Townsend, who you just saw testify at today's hearing, joins us now hopefully with some answers to the questions.
Also joining us is Steven Raiser. He's a former military attorney and veteran of the Iraq war.
Fran, let's start with you since you were at the hearing today. A new CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll finds that 47 percent of Americans think that Hasan's attacks were not an act of terrorism, 45 percent say yes.
Where do you come down on that question?
TOWNSEND: You know, John, I was asked this question at the hearing today. And if you look at Webster's Dictionary of what terror is, it's violence used to instill fear or intimidation. Clearly that was Major Hasan's sort of impetus, right? He wanted to instill fear and intimidation. The question then becomes is it -- as a legal question. Was it an act of terrorism? I don't think we know about that yet.
ROBERTS: Well, let's turn to Steven Raiser. He's the legal eagle here. Do you think it was an act of terrorism from a legal perspective?
STEVEN RAISER, FORMER MILITARY ATTORNEY: I think it is. I think there is enough there. And it was defined he fits into that mold perfectly. I mean, what he did is clear. And as soon as he jumped up on the table and made the statement, Alluha Akbar, that was enough for me to say this is a terrorist act because clearly, he was aligned with Muslim extremist views. Because that's a phrase that is oftentimes used before a terrorist attack is carried out. And we know that. And that's the direct evidence.
ROBERTS: All right. Playing devil's advocate here. If a Christian fundamentalist jumped up on a table and shouted I do this in the name of Christ, would that be an act of terrorism?
KAISER: It would be if they are following along with a statue and they did it for the purpose of intimidation or for a political agenda. Of course they would. It certainly could be the case regardless. But what we do know is that Muslim extremists are the ones that have attacked us on 9/11 and those were the ones that we're looking out for right now because of the fact that he happens to be Muslim.
If a Christian did that, and we had that situation, we've had Christian terrorists. If they did that, then of course it's going to be a terrorist act and we have convicted them of such.
ROBERTS: Fran Townsend, you...
TOWNSEND: John, let's be -- wait.
ROBERTS: Go ahead.
TOWNSEND: John, let's be clear. You know Allahu Akbar is also the phrase at the beginning of Muslim prayers which they do five times a day. The fact that he said that isn't the key here. The fact that he was in touch with Awlaki, the imam to two 9/11 hijackers in San Diego, those two came to Northern Virginia along with a third. And Awlaki's phone numbers were found in Ramzi Binalshibh, another 9/11 conspirator, in his apartment in Hamburg. And the association with these people that troubles me. And I think is the indication that it's a potential terrorist attack.
KAISER: Can I jump in there?
ROBERTS: Go ahead, Steven.
KAISER: Because, obviously, I'm not stating that because -- solely because he got up on the table. There's a ton of circumstantial evidence that ties him to the crime. So I'm not saying it's solely because he uttered those words. I mean he uttered those words right before he pulled out his two weapons and shot up 13 people and killed them. And not to mention all the ones that he injured. That's only part of the picture.
There's all the circumstantial evidence. When you put all this together, at this point, to say it wasn't a terrorist act, I think we're just avoiding the obvious.
ROBERTS: Let's go to another point, which is connecting the dots. And Fran, you and I talked so much about this after the attacks of 9/11 when we were both at the White House. Sixty-four percent of people who were asked in the CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll thought that these attacks could have been prevented.
That there was a trail here that could have been followed. Senator Joe Lieberman who chaired the committee that you testified before today suggested that law enforcement, military may have failed to act on obvious warning signs. Do you, Fran, think that this could have been prevented?
TOWNSEND: I do, John. Particularly if you look at the information that was out at Walter Reed. Now it looks like, from preliminary information that the information about this guy and how he was behaving at Walter Reed never made it into his personnel file. And so when agents on the JTTF looked at the intercepts and then compared that to his personnel file, he had glowing personnel records.
That's the problem. The real problem here is going to be how come the DOD information didn't get married up with the intelligence intercepts that would have given agents a fuller picture.
ROBERTS: Are surprised, Steven, that after 9/11, after all the talk of not connecting the dots, that the dots were not connected here? That this guy kind of flew below the radar screen? Even though, based on some of the evidence we've seen, this memo that came out, he was on somebody's radar screen, and the fact that the FBI also looked at his communications with al-Awlaki.
KAISER: Sure, he was on the radar screen for DOD and DOJ, and it's unfortunate that nobody in either agency went forward and finished it off. Now part of the problem is the fact that these two agencies are not connecting with one another.
The policy as it is right now from the military standpoint is that we will put in a request to get information. The FBI is not giving us anything until they get that request. And likewise with the FBI -- with the DOJ to the DOD, the Department of Defense. We're waiting for requests. Once those requests are received, we hand over the information. But until that happens, there's no sharing.
The law has to be changed in order to address this so that there's more of an interchange between the agencies and a free flow of information.
ROBERTS: A subject, Fran, that came up in today's hearing was that of political correctness and whether or not that played a part here in not following the dots as it relates to Major Hasan. What do you think about all that?
TOWNSEND: I do worry about that, John. You know, pre-9/11, we saw agents who are afraid to put information over the intelligence wall to law enforcement. They could have done it, they just were indoctrinated not to do that and to be very careful about it.
I worry now that in a post-9/11 world, we've gone too far the other way in terms of cultural and awareness where these agents may have feared or may have been concerned about having to justify a further investigation of a very senior, uniformed military Muslim doctor.
ROBERTS: Steve, from a legal perspective, where does this case go from here?
KAISER: Well, it's going to go through the procedure of a court martial. One of the issues right now that we're waiting to deal with from a military perspective is, is he ready to proceed with -- does he have the mental capacity to do it.
I mean right now he's still in the hospital. He's on IVs. We don't know if he yet has the mental capacity to go forward. That has to be made -- a determination on that has to be made first. After that, there will be an article 32, which is the equivalent of a grand jury proceeding in order to accumulate the evidence and go forward the same way it is on the civil side.
And then from there, they are going to proceed with the death penalty. And that's a whole another issue because getting the death penalty in the military is no simple chore. Because the last time there was anybody executed was 1961. So that's an uphill battle. And for good reason because in the military, there's a lot of safeguards there. And it's a very difficult to get a trial that appeal proof. So these cases hang around a long time going through the appeal process?
ROBERTS: Steve Kaiser, Fran Townsend, thanks for being with us tonight. Always good to see you, Fran, thanks so much.
KAISER: Thank you for having me.
TOWNSEND: Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: Up next an education success story. We'll introduce you to the students who are proving America can still compete with the rest of the world and win.
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ROBERTS: There was outrage today at the University of California as students protested massive tuition hikes. Students demonstrated for the second day at the university's Los Angeles campus.
The university has approved a whopping 32 percent tuition hike over the next two years. Students will now pay an additional $2,500 a year. The university says the fee increases and deep spending cuts are necessary because of California's budget crisis.
While cost might be an issue, there is no debating in the excellence of an American college education. Six of the top 10 colleges in the world are right here in the United States. But it is a very different story when it comes to public school education.
The United States placed 18th last year among 36 countries ranked by one international organization earlier this year. President Obama has praised the high-scoring South Korean education system as something the United States should emulate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our children spend over a month less in school than children in South Korea. Every year. That's no way to prepare them for a 21st century economy.
If they can do it in South Korea, we can do it right here in the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Well, there are some public schools in this country that are holding their students to the highest international education standards. Casey Wian visited one in Scottsdale, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 15-year-old Mason Waaler is a high school sophomore helping his younger siblings get ready for school. They drop off little sister Madison at the local elementary school in Scottsdale, Arizona, then the older boys head across town to the Basis, a charter school with a modest goal -- revolutionizing the American education system.
MASON WAALER, BASIS HIGH SCHOOL SOPHOMORE: You can't just slide through all your classes without trying. You actually have to put forth some effort. And so I think that's really good. It will build good character.
WIAN: By the time Mason finishes tenth grade, he will have completed seven advanced placement courses.
WAALER: We pour water into that.
WIAN: This one, AP environmental science is more than half full of eighth graders.
BECKY HOFFMANN, BASIS TEACHER: The school has a community of students who are so motivated and who care so much about their education that they're willing to work really hard to achieve the standards that we set for them.
WIAN: Becky Hoffmann is a Harvard graduate, among several Ivy League educated teachers at the Basis schools in Scottsdale and Tucson. There's no teacher's union here and instructor pay is tied to the performance of their students including a $200 bonus for every student receiving a perfect 5 AP test score, $100 for each four.
Basis was founded in 1998 by Michael and Olga Block, a husband and wife team of economists who wanted a world class education for their daughter.
MICHAEL BLOCK, BASIS CO-FOUNDER: Look at what other students are expected to learn around the world. And we want our students -- actually we want our students to be a little better.
OLGA BLOCK, BASIS CO-FOUNDER: What we are striving for and I think we achieved that, we have well scored kids, as I said -- as I say. There's math, there's science, there are humanities and there's art. And everything is important.
WIAN: Now, there are more than 1200 fifth through 12th grade students at the two Basis schools. A lottery determines admissions, hundreds are on the waiting list. Some families have moved across the country to enroll.
O. BLOCK: It works by any measurement. We have great test results. The parents want to bring their kids here. The kids, you saw it, are happy. They are working, they are learning. It does work.
WIAN: The Blocks have traveled the world studying the methods of top ranks school systems.
(On camera): The results are impressive. Basis is a free public charter school that accepts students from all socio-economic backgrounds, yet it has a four-year college acceptance rate of 100 percent.
(Voice-over): The founders are unapologetic about what Basis schools lack such as sports stadiums.
M. BLOCK: Most of the (INAUDIBLE) American high school experience is mythical. I mean 70 or 80 percent of the high school students have a pretty miserable time actually.
WIAN: Here students can choose a diverse curriculum including Mandarin, music and martial arts.
KATIE WOOD, BASIS HIGH SCHOOL JUNIOR: We are not a clicky high school. We're a really -- we're a group of kids that are here working to the same goal at Basis. And that is to learn.
WIAN: That, Katie has. She'll have taken 12 AP courses or a year's headstart on college by the end of her junior year of high school.
Perhaps the most impressive figure, Basis says its per pupil cost is $6,000 or $7,000 a year or about $2,000 less than taxpayers pay for student at traditional Arizona public schools.
Casey Wian, CNN, Scottsdale, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Well, the founders of Basis schools say their concept can work in nearly any community and they are looking for partners interested in opening like-minded charter schools in other states.
Coming up, even a small business owner that's trying to create green jobs is having a hard time getting the green that he needs to keep going. We'll have his story, coming up next.
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ROBERTS: Talk show host Oprah Winfrey says she will call it quits in 2011 after 25 seasons on the air. Winfrey plans to give more details including the final air date for the "Oprah Winfrey Show" during her live broadcast on Friday.
Winfrey's popularity and influence goes well beyond her TV show. Her media empire includes films, books, magazines and the Web. Winfrey made news this week when she interviewed former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. That interview won Winfrey her highest ratings in two years. Economists often say small business will lead the country out of recession. But banks have cut back on lending to small businesses making it nearly impossible to create new jobs. Small business owners say the federal agency that is supposed to help is actually standing in the way.
Louise Schiavone examines why small businesses are not getting the help they need.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mike Morgan's company near Baltimore is a green business dream come true. He assembles post disaster housing kits with rooms built entirely of compressed agricultural fiber.
MIKE MORGAN, CRITICAL RESPONSE NETWORKS: The main ingredient in here is the straw wasteful byproduct of wheat and rice grain. The USDA burns probably 12 to 13 million tons.
SCHIAVONE: The walls are packed into kits complete with steel braces, bathroom and kitchen pieces, and unlike the post-Katrina trailers, they are formaldehyde free. The units are made to withstand winds of up to 140 miles an hour.
Morgan says he could employ at least 100 people for fabricating, assembling, shipping and building these homes. But the roughly two dozen banks he's visited have turned him down.
MORGAN: They look at us says, well, it's great, good idea. We think it's wonderful. Man, this thing will go places but we are not willing to really step up and take any risk. And that's been the struggle.
SCHIAVONE: Not surprising says the Republican senator who turned down the job as commerce secretary.
SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: The regulators come into banks and in good times say lend money and in bad times say don't lend money. And it's very hard for a successful small business or somebody who's got a good idea who wants to go out and create jobs to get money.
SCHIAVONE: In recent years, small businesses have accounted for roughly 64 percent of all new jobs. That's why this week the head of the AFL-CIO met with Capital Hill Democrats calling on the government to direct bailout dollars to the small business sector.
RICHARD TRUMIKA, AFL-CIO: The banks right now are not lending money to the small and mid-sized companies and so they're not able to create the jobs that we think they're capable of and quite frankly anxious to do.
SCHIAVONE: The Small Business Administration says before last year's bank bailout lending had dried up. Now since the SBA got a piece of the recovery act in February, they've guaranteed 37,000 loans of $2 million or less.
Mike Morgan has yet to be connected by a bank with an SBA loan. FEMA contracted with Morgan's company to build as many as 1,000 of these homes every year, but there was no minimum order guarantee and he's built only one. His senator says he deserves government support.
SEN. BEN CARRION (D), MARYLAND: That type of business should be preferred in our system. Here you have filling a need, helping deal with disasters in our community, promoting small-business growth but doing it in an environmentally friendly way that's consistent with our energy policy, our environmental policy, our economic policy.
SCHIAVONE: Right now Morgan has one man on his payroll and it's not him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: But, John, maybe help is on the way. The White House is talking about more help for small businesses. And this week Goldman Sachs and Berkshire Hathaway's Warren Buffett announced they would invest $500 million in the small business sector -- John?
ROBERTS: They may help a lot of people. They go along way. Louise Schiavone for us tonight. Louise, thanks.
And coming up at the top of the hour, Campbell Brown. She's here now. Hi, Campbell.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, John. Tonight we are also digging into the growing controversy over the suspect in the Fort Hood massacre. Senators are asking why so many red flags about his behavior were missed. That is just ahead.
And also we're just getting new details on Oprah Winfrey's big decision to end her show in 2011.
And you're probably caught on camera dozens of times each day and you don't even know about it. Our special investigation, "The End of Privacy" looks at how surveillance cameras are changing our lives. All that top of the hour -- John?
ROBERTS: Campbell, we will see you then. Thanks so much.
Still ahead, more than 200 miles above the earth, astronauts on the space shuttle Atlantis in the space station were joking around during their first spacewalk. We'll tell you what put them in such a good mood, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Astronauts on the space shuttle Atlantis made the first of three planned spacewalks today to make repairs to the International Space Station. The mission today was to install a spare antenna. The astronauts accomplished that mission in just two hours.
Their speed was so impressive that another astronaut was heard yelling, you guys are rocking the house. Not typical language on the space station. Atlantis will remain at the ISS until Wednesday.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please joins us again tomorrow. I'm John Roberts. I will see you again bright and early tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING" where we'll be talking with a former Marine psychiatrist who was dismissed from his position at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina because he complained about conditions at the base's health clinic.
All that and more tomorrow on "AM." Coming up next, Campbell Brown.
ANNOUNCER: CNN Primetime begins right now.
BROWN: A bombshell announcement from the queen of all media. Oprah Winfrey ending her talk show after 25 years.
