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CNN Tonight
Health Care Standoff; Senate Works Overtime; Blaming the President; Oprah Says Goodbye
Aired November 20, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, Republicans and Democrats in the Senate get set for a fierce battle over health care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little bit of bait and switch going on there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As one old senator used to say, like the devil hates holy water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But could a handful of renegade Democrats kill President Obama's dream of health care overhaul.
More cancer confusion -- first it was mammogram guidelines. Now women face new recommendations on when to be screened for cervical cancer. Who really wins with a new cancer screening advice, women or the health care industry? Also, student uprising.
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: This is what democracy looks like.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: University students in California stage a campus takeover to protest soaring tuition costs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN TONIGHT live from New York. Here now Erica Hill.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And thanks for joining us tonight. The health care overhaul is about to face a critical test vote in Congress. The Senate will be in session tomorrow. That's right, a Saturday. Not just any Saturday, but the Saturday before the Thanksgiving holiday.
The fact that they're not already heading home for the holiday is a sure sign of the pressure Democrats are feeling to push the health care overhaul through before the end of the year. Today Democratic leaders were desperately trying to secure support from members of their own party. Dana Bash has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Behind the scenes it's a Democratic scramble to secure 60 votes needed to start the Senate health care debate.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL), MAJORIY WHIP: We're not assuming a thing, we're working hard to bring all Democrats together for the 60 votes necessary to proceed to this historic debate.
BASH: And all eyes are on one of the last Democratic holdouts, the senator inside this office, Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Blanche Lincoln's office.
BASH: Phones are ringing off the hook, constituents trying to get through to influence her vote.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma'am, I'm sorry about that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we're getting a lot of people calling.
BASH: Lincoln holds the power to stop President Obama's top priority in its tracks or let it proceed. She's got a tough re- election battle next year in a state Obama lost in 2008 by 20 points, and conservative voters now worry that health care bill spends too much and gives too much power to the government. Democratic leaders are well aware of her political pickle, but try to pressure her with this argument.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say to Senator Lincoln that I believe most of the people in Arkansas will be relieved and happy to see health care reform. I think the failure to pass a bill is not good for America; it isn't good for any of us in Congress or those standing for re-election.
BASH: Another Democratic senator who hasn't formerly announced her vote is Mary Landrieu of Louisiana. Aides released these photos to CNN, showing her working with staff, going through the 2,000-plus page health care bill. One thing she'll find is this -- a sweetener Democratic leaders added to help persuade Landrieu, $100 million in Medicaid assistance she's been trying to get for her home state of Louisiana still struggling from Katrina.
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BASH: Now Landrieu has said she has deep concerns about many things, the cost of her party's health care bill and the fact that it includes a government-run health insurance option. She opposes that, Erica. Still, the sense we are getting from her and her office over the past couple of days is that she is leaning towards voting yes with her party to start this debate tomorrow night -- Erica.
HILL: Dana, as you understand it one of those other Democrats who was holding out has actually made a decision at this point, correct?
BASH: That's right. Nebraska Senator Ben Nelson -- he announced earlier today that he -- despite the fact that he also has concerns, many concerns about his party's health care bill, he too will vote to bring this bill to the floor to start debate. In fact in his statement he said if you don't like a bill why block your own opportunity to amend it, so there you have it. Unclear if any of these senators who are expected to vote yes tomorrow night will vote yes at the end of the day. There is going to be a big fight that will take several weeks on the Senate floor after tomorrow.
HILL: Yes, tomorrow only the beginning -- Dana, thanks.
BASH: Exactly.
HILL: We talked about the fact that the senators are working an occasional Saturday. Sometimes working an occasional Saturday, even every Saturday may be normal for you, for a lot of Americans, but not for the U.S. Senate. In fact it's a rare event made even more unusual because of the upcoming Thanksgiving holiday. Louise Schiavone reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The majority leader has scheduled a cloture vote for Saturday at 8:00 p.m.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The song says Saturday night is all right for fighting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is going to be a vote on Saturday night to start debate.
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And so with the clock ticking on the legislative year, senators brace for yet another rare Saturday session in an attempt to kick off their health care debate.
ELAINA NEWPORT, "THE CAPITOL STEPS": The Congress is going to have to break their 15 to 20-hour workweek and work like every hard American, work on a Saturday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.
SCHIAVONE: Former Senate staffer turned humorous Elaina Newport of the county (ph) group "The Capitol Steps" plays to the public's skepticism about Capitol Hill's performance. When asked one month ago in a CNN poll do you approve or disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job, 69 percent disapprove, less than a third approve.
MARK EATON, "THE CAPITOL STEPS": Ironically this one is you know right before Thanksgiving. The Republicans want to kill this Turkey and the Democrats are hoping to have a stay of execution with 60 votes.
SCHIAVONE: This weekend will mark the 97th Saturday session of the U.S. Senate since March of 1968. Previous Saturday votes were called on key government spending bills, tax bills, impeachment, and in the summer of 1994, the Democratic Senate leader called a Saturday session to debate health care. Former director of the Senate Radio-TV Gallery, Larry Janezich says there are many reasons to call members in on the weekend.
LARRY JANEZICH, FORMER DIR., SENATE RADIO-TV GALLERY: It might be a little bit of an opportunity for the majority leader to exercise a power play and demonstrate in that way to his own party and to the members of the opposite party his resolve to move this issue forward.
SCHIAVONE: Are lawmakers running up the light bills in the Senate chamber so far this year? Here's what we know. Out of the 324 days of this year, the Senate has met 165. They met one Sunday in January and one Saturday in February. In fairness, members of Congress do spend a lot of time traveling to their home districts and they're essentially in a permanent campaign for re-election.
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SCHIAVONE: Erica, there was talk that the Senate might meet Sunday too but that would be even more rare. There have been only 31 Sunday sessions since 1861 but they'll be back at their desks Monday, the Monday after Thanksgiving -- Erica.
HILL: Of course. Yes, not the Monday before -- Louise, thanks.
Unemployment increasing in 29 states last month. Thirteen states now have jobless rates above the national average of 10.2 percent. Those numbers coming today from the Labor Department and they could mean big trouble for the president. Just one year after Barack Obama's historic election, voters are now identifying him with the biggest problem they face, the economy. Suzanne Malveaux has the report.
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SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite some economic indicators suggesting the economy has turned a corner, a new CNN Opinion Research poll shows a whopping 82 percent of the public believe economic conditions are poor and the question of who to blame is taking front and center. Just take a look at the grilling Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner got from some Republican lawmakers.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) five minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to take responsibility for your decision.
TIMOTHY GEITHNER, TREASURY SECRETARY: I take responsibility for anything I am part of doing.
(CROSSTALK)
GEITHNER: I'll be happy to do that. But I what can't take responsibility is, is for the legacy of crisis you bequeathed...
(CROSSTALK) MALVEAUX: Two years into the recession the blame seems to be shifting. Americans are now less likely to point to the Republicans for the economic mess and instead are angry at the Democrats. The same CNN Opinion Research poll shows 38 percent blame the GOP for the country's current economic problems. That's down 15 points from May when 53 percent blamed them. CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser says that's bad for the Democrats and President Obama.
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: These numbers are troubling for the president. It's going to be harder and harder for this White House to blame the previous administration for the economic woes. This economy is turning into Barack Obama's economy. This recession is turning into Barack Obama's recession.
MALVEAUX: Americans are still very much divided over whether the president's economic policies are actually working. Thirty-six percent say they have improved economic conditions, 28 percent say they have made things worse, 35 percent say what the White House has done has had no effect. One of the reasons Americans are dissatisfied is their concern and the ballooning federal budget deficit. Two- thirds believe the government should be working harder to balance it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though we're in a time of war, Americans think that the federal budget deficit needs to be brought down. The war is not an excuse.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And of course who gets the credit of the blame for the state of the economy particularly when it comes to jobs could cost the Democratic Party as a whole, Erica. We are talking about three times the number of Democratic lawmakers in the House who are facing some tougher close reelection, midterm elections for next year as compared to the Republicans and so clearly if the voters see them as part of the problem or part of the solution, it's going to make a huge difference -- Erica.
HILL: Talk about a lot of pressure there -- Suzanne, thanks.
I want to share some other poll numbers with you as well. You heard some of those numbers from Suzanne. Well President Obama's poll numbers are actually at a new low tonight. The latest Gallup daily tracking poll shows the president's approval rating at just 49 percent. This is the first time those numbers for Barack Obama had actually slipped below the 50 percent mark in that poll.
Diplomats from the U.S. and five other world powers meeting today into in Brussels to map out strategy in the nuclear standoff with Iran -- a European Union official said there was no talk of imposing sanctions. Tehran this week apparently rejected part of a deal aimed at reducing the amount of raw material it has for building a nuclear bomb. President Obama has warned Iran there would be consequences if it fails to accept the plan.
Still ahead and more to come on the health care debate, the top Republican on the Senate Budget Committee joins us, also more new cancer screening guidelines for women. They're turning conventional wisdom on its head and a lot of people are wondering.
Plus outrage on campus, students taking to the streets over huge tuition increases. We'll speak to some of them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Critics of the most dramatic attempt to change health care in generations are digging in their heels predicting dire consequences to the entire country, especially among small businesses, also sending billions of dollars in tax hikes and Medicare cuts. Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire is in the thick of the health care debate, he joins us this evening from Capitol Hill -- Senator, good to have you with us tonight.
SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well thank you Erica for having me on. I appreciate it.
HILL: I know you've said that you do believe the bill will pass. Obviously the vote tomorrow is about the debate but you believe ultimately it will pass. What would it take though, sir, to get behind it?
GREGG: You'd have to start again. I genuinely believe we need health care reform but it has to be done on a step-by-step basis. It has to be done thoughtfully. It can't be done in a way that expands the size of the government by $2.5 trillion -- $2.5 trillion -- that's how much this bill will cost when it's fully implemented.
HILL: We should point out some of those numbers are actually up for debate at this point...
GREGG: No, that's not debatable. That comes out of the CBO.
HILL: The CBO number that we have is $840 million, but either way it's a large number.
GREGG: Yes, but you got to remember -- yes, that number is a 10- year number with the program starting in the fourth and fifth year. If you take 10 years when the program is fully implemented throughout the whole 10 years, it's 2.5 trillion, so that number is sort of a bait and switch number regrettably.
HILL: Well, and depending on which side you're on obviously the numbers are going to play a little bit differently, but when it comes specifically to the number...
(CROSSTALK)
GREGG: It's big.
HILL: I know...
GREGG: You can agree on that.
HILL: Well, there you go. I know that one of your biggest concerns with the health care bill, one of the reasons you'd like to start over is when it comes to small businesses. What is it specifically about this Senate bill that has you concerned for small businesses?
GREGG: Well, there are a variety of things. First off there's a penalty, it's basically a tax, which all businesses will have to pay if they don't insure their employees. Secondly, the way this is structured, there is going to be a tremendous cost drift -- shift onto the small business insurance plans so that their premiums are going up dramatically.
Our estimates in New Hampshire, for example, are that moderate income families are going to see their premiums jump between 30 and 40 percent under this plan when it's fully implemented and that comes right through the companies. That's an expense which either companies have to pick up or the employee has to pick up, but in either case it's very expensive.
Let me give you an example. A guy came up to me when I was in New Hampshire last week -- I go back every week -- and he said I have a company with 15 people. We're growing, we're doing well. It's a small company. I asked my accountant -- he said I asked my accountant how much is this bill going to cost me -- he was looking at the House bill at the time.
He said $200,000 is what his accountant told him. He said that means instead of adding a couple of people, I'm going to have to reduce a couple of people and I don't want to do that but that's what going to -- the impact of this is because of the penalties, because of the fees and because of the surtax.
HILL: So then -- so if you were to start over in a perfect world, which you said that you would like to do that would get you behind the bill...
GREGG: Yes.
HILL: ... should there have been more of a focus in your view then on the actual cost as opposed to we hear a lot about the number of Americans who will be covered. What's more important, coverage or cost?
GREGG: Well, they're not exclusive, you know. The purpose of this Bill should have been to cover all Americans and at the same time reduce the cost. Unfortunately the way they approached it was because they basically wanted to cover everybody with a fairly rich plan, AND they didn't do anything significant to bend -- out your cost curve like controlling junk lawsuits, like allowing employers to pay people a differential if your employees pursue a healthy lifestyle like stopping smoking and things like that, instituting very significant efforts in the area of rewarding quality of health delivery versus quantity of health delivery.
They didn't do any of those things which would have bent the out -- your cost curve so the two aren't mutually exclusive. You could have gotten a lot more coverage of people and I had a proposal to do this... (CROSSTALK)
GREGG: ... reducing costs.
HILL: Is that something that you feel you and your fellow Republicans could bring up in debate and could successfully fight and lobby for?
GREGG: That's exactly what we're going to try to do. We're going to try to do it by amendment. As you know, we didn't see this bill. We didn't participate in this drafting. It was done behind closed doors. The first time we saw it was two days ago, it's 2,000 pages...
HILL: Have you made it through all 2,000, because I haven't.
GREGG: No, no. But I calculate it out. It's over $1 billion a page and that's pretty darn expensive. So we're going to amend it. We're going to put up a lot of what we think are constructive amendments to try to make it a better bill, to get cost controls under -- more effective, to allow insurance across state lines, to make sure that small employers are incentivized, to ensure people not to drop people from insurance, lot of things that we think are important in this effort.
HILL: How successful do you think you'll be?
GREGG: Not too successful. You know we only have 40 votes. So unfortunately you know this is an issue where you know people who have the votes win the day. And the Democratic Party has supermajorities in both houses and the president has invested his -- basically his political status and domestic policy on passing this very massive expansion of the government through health care expansion.
HILL: Although you do have some folks a little bit teetering on the fence there. Do you think you have any...
GREGG: Well I would hope so. I would hope so because I think if you look at this it's just not good policy. It's not good policy from a standpoint of the government spending another $2.5 trillion that we don't have which means we pass that debt on to our kids. And it's not good policy because it's going to undermine in my opinion health care delivery. It's going to end up too much federal bureaucracy and the decisions you make as an individual on your health care and it's also going to stifle innovation. So I would hope people would look at this and say, well, we can do a lot better than this, so let's take another shot at it.
HILL: Well we will be watching and listening this weekend. I know you'll be a busy man along with your fellow senators. Thanks for your time tonight, Senator Gregg.
GREGG: Thank you. Thank you very much.
HILL: The love gov, as he's known to some, turns out his days may be numbered. South Carolina lawmakers say they will formally consider the impeachment of Governor Mark Sanford. A Judiciary Committee is expected to begin efforts to oust the Republican governor. A vote could come as early as next week.
Sanford is accused of negligence for leaving the state without telling his staff or the state government where he was going. When Sanford returned five days later the married governor confessed he had actually been to Argentina to see his lover.
Up next, Oprah, in case you've been living under a rock, is saying goodbye. So what is next for the media mogul and will anyone be able to replace her as the queen of talk?
Plus it is a parent's worst nightmare -- a father and his young son separated on a subway platform. We'll tell you what happened next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: The big buzz in the entertainment world, in fact not just the entertainment world, everywhere it seems, is the news that Oprah Winfrey is saying goodbye to her talk show in 2011. She confirmed today that news -- her 25th season will be her last. Oprah is, of course, a major force in the entertainment world.
Her media empire includes not just TV but film, publishing and the Internet. So what is next for Oprah and could anyone possibly fill those shoes? CNN Entertainment correspondent Brooke Anderson joining us now with the latest -- Brooke, how did the big announcement go for her today?
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: It went pretty well, Erica. She made it tearfully -- I will have to say it is the end of an era, so she was pretty emotional as she expressed her gratitude to her fans, to her viewers. She thanked them for as she put it enriching her life beyond measure, welcoming her into their homes and then she explained why now, why she is ending her show after the 25th season in September, 2011. Let's take a look at what she said about that.
Quote, " I love this show. This show has been my life and I love it enough to know when it's time to say goodbye. Twenty-five years feels right in my bones and it feels right in my spirit. It's the perfect number, the exact right time." No question this woman is a trail blazer, has had an incredible run with this show. Listen to this, 42 million viewers tune into the show every week.
Her fortune is estimated at more than $2.5 billion. Take a second to wrap your mind around that -- $2.5 billion. I mean the woman is incredible. The show is seen in 145 countries. She's very influential. And a lot of her loyal viewers and fans are truly going to miss her. But Erica, I've got to say before the panic sets in, I don't think this is Oprah's final farewell.
Sure, she probably will take a much-deserved break but this is not a woman who's going to sit around eating bonbons for the rest of her life. She is launching her own cable network, the Oprah Winfrey Network. There is much speculation that she is simply going to kind of move her show to that network. And Erica, I've got to say that would probably be a really smart idea. What better way to bring attention, bring eyeballs to a start-up network than her show.
HILL: It definitely wouldn't hurt. But she's still going to leave this big void for a lot of folks, most of them around 4:00 on a weekday. Is there any word on who might take her place? I don't know if you can actually take Oprah's place, but who might take the time slot?
ANDERSON: You're right. There's going to be a gaping hole and a lot of people are throwing around Ellen DeGeneres' name. She's hugely successful with her own talk show right now and she's even said on her show that Oprah called her to personally deliver this news. So it almost seems like Oprah may have been passing the torch.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: Who knows, Tyra Banks, that name has also been tossed around. She's become quite the media mogul herself. And Sarah Palin, Erica, and you know Sarah was on Oprah's show on Monday, really avoiding the question when Oprah asked if she planned to have her own talk show, so who knows.
That could potentially be something happening there. She could be a talk show host one day. She did not say no. And then people have also batted around the name Michelle Obama. So like you say, who will kind of step in -- there may be a new daytime talk show leader, but really Oprah is irreplaceable and I think everybody knows that.
HILL: She is. Although we've got almost two years to speculate on it, Brooke, so don't -- you can't be done tonight. There's more to come.
ANDERSON: That's right and she said that she's going to knock our socks off over the next two years, so we'll see what she's got planned.
HILL: I don't doubt it. All right, Brooke, thanks and you can catch much more on Oprah's announcement with Brooke Anderson tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT". That's at 11:00 p.m. Eastern on our sister network HLN.
A tragic accident on pop star Miley Cyrus's tour -- one person was killed when one of her tour buses overturned on a Virginia highway this morning. Miley Cyrus was not on board the bus at the time of the accident. State police say the bus hit an embankment and flipped over. The bus was one of four traveling from New York where the 16- year-old performed last night. Another person was taken to a local hospital with minor injuries.
Talk about a terrifying train ride for one Oregon man. Aaron Bailey (ph) was separated from his 3-year-old son during the height of rush hour. A platform camera actually caught the incident on tape. You can see it here. The little boy walks off the train but then the doors close before Bailey (ph) can get off to be with his son. A Good Samaritan comes to the rescue holding the little boy's hand until dad is able to catch a train back. Probably the longest seven minutes of his life. He did get back there, though, tearfully hugging his son and tearfully hugging that stranger. He said he's actually looking for the woman he calls his guardian angel to say thank you one more time -- woo, talk about being lucky she was there.
Just ahead new confusion and new outrage over new cancer screening guidelines for women -- first it was mammograms, now we are talking cervical cancer.
Also it may feel like a scene from the '60's. College students taking over a campus building but the anger today is over money.
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UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: (INAUDIBLE)
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN TONIGHT live from New York.
HILL: There are new guidelines tonight concerning cervical cancer screening for women. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists now says women don't need a Pap test screening until the age of 21. The guidelines for follow-up exams are changing as well. As Brooke Baldwin reports, it is the latest new piece of information on what's been a very confusing week for women's health care.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a single week, two sweeping changes recommended for women and health care, two medical panels calling for a delayed start and reduced frequency of screenings for both breast and cervical cancer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually I was kind of relieved to see these new guidelines.
BALDWIN: While some patients and doctors may feel fewer tests are counter intuitive to good health, Emory University's Dr. Sharmil Makhija says it's time for a culture change.
DR SHARMILA MAKHIJA, EMORY WINSHIP CANCER INST: You know, I did try actually to tell patients, oh, you don't need to come in every year, I'll see you in two year, and they don't like that. That don't like that, it makes them nervous.
BALDWIN: When it comes to cervical cancer screenings, are the Dr. Makhija agrees that less is more. The American Cancer Society estimates there will be 11,270 new cases of cervical cancer this year, but of that number, a tiny fraction will be girls younger than 21. That is good news, according to the society's chief medical officer, and a reason for doctors to start testing more conservatively. DR OTIS BRAWLEY, AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY: Cancer control is a relatively new science. As that science evolves, doctors are going to become much more aware that the science exists and perhaps a little bit more conservative in their use of screening.
BALDWIN: While Dr. Otis Brawley says doctors may test less frequently for cervical cancer, he disagrees with reducing the frequency of mammograms and he emphasizes the need for additional screenings for colon cancer in men and women.
OTIS: The major problem in the United States is really more than half of people who should be getting that screen for which there's no question it reduces risk of death, more than half the people who should be getting that screen aren't getting any kind of screening.
BALDWIN: Meanwhile, the doctor is hopeful the new guidelines will encourage dialogue between patients and doctors and lead to a more holistic approach.
MAKHIJA: It's really changing the way we look at doing a GYN exam on a patient, the health care of a woman. It's not so generalized, it's really more focused on each individual patient, which is really, I think, welcome change for both the patient and the physician.
BALDWIN: Brooke Baldwin, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: For more now on the new women's health care recommendations, I'm joined by Dr. Thomas Herzog who's director on Gynecologic Oncology at Columbia University, New York Presbyterian Hospital. He also is the spokesman for the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology concerning these new cervical cancer screening guidelines. And here in New York with us is Dr. Evelyn Minaya who has a private OB/GYN practice in New Jersey.
Good to have both of you with you. Dr. Herzog, I'd like to start with you. In the findings, the American college of obstetrics and gynecology says because of frequent screenings that the incident is actually down 50 percent over 30 years. With numbers like that it would sound like this is a good reason to keep up frequent pap tests.
DR THOMAS HERZOG, GYNECOLOGIC ONCOLOGY: Well, you raised a good point and it's obvious that there's concern whenever you revise any guidelines. But I want to point out the college has been very careful about how these guidelines have been formulated. And this is really based on the science. And the science shows that we do want to continue screening and this is not to in any way impugn screening but to screen those who most need it. And we've identified groups that do not appear to benefit from screening, and in fact this is money that we can then use for other purposes, such as vaccination and prevention, which is also important.
HILL: Dr. Minaya, you said earlier that you were irate to use your word, over these screenings, so clearly you disagree with those reasons. Why?
DR EVELYN MINAYA, OB/GYN: I agree. Because the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, we already use those guidelines right now, in terms of what we need to treat and we don't. We already know that cervical cancer, the incidents of it in younger patient population, we already know that it is almost nil. OK, but what we're doing is not only screening for cervical cancer, if you change your thinking and in terms of protection and giving the knowledge and power, in order for you to tell them, look, it is important for you to use, you know, safe sex as a method of you to try to prevent these low-grade and high-grade lesions, then that's the thing that's important. We're not changing really anything. What you're doing is really negating care, I feel like that.
HILL: How is it specifically negating care?
MINAYA: Well, I think that if you're telling a 21-year-old, let's say, for instance, first of all, think about this. Gardasil. Gardasil is the HPV vaccine which is done for preventive medicine. We as the College of Obstetrics and Gynecology recommended that begins at nine, the age of nine. So what we're telling them is like, yes, it's important for you to get the vaccine, but it's not important for you to get a pap smear. A pap smear will identify low-grade, you know, (INAUDIBLE), in other words, mild precancer cells. Although we might not treat it, maybe it will change your attitude in terms of preventing it later on in your future.
HILL: So we hear a lot about -- to jump off of that, we hear a lot about preventive care, Dr. Herzog, in fact as we're dealing so much with this health care reform discussion. We're hearing a lot about how important preventive care is. So, if we're actually recommending that a woman have preventive care a little bit less often, is there any concern there, at least on your end, about the risk that you could miss something or that even a woman might say, I don't need to go every three years, maybe I'll just wait five.
HERZOG: Well, let me respond just for a second to some of the points that were raised, because it's very important to understand that the vaccinated population is actually included in these guidelines and they are to be screened just like everyone else. The message is do not do screening. We need to continue to do screening and that's part of the vaccination message, as well. So let's not confuse the two issues.
I think that's a very important point, is the vaccine only prevents 70 percent of cervical cancers, so we need to continue to do screening in this population. And I also think that you need to divorce what's done at an annual visit from actually having an annual visit. No one is impugning, once again, the annual visit. What they're saying is what's actually done needs to be done in a most cost effective manner.
HILL: Right, but that's the reason a lot of women go on an annual basis. I mean, honestly, as a woman, that's what...
HERZOG: Well, that's true, but... HILL: So, is there any concern that maybe women will not, in fact, continue with that annual visit with their OB/GYN for that preventative care?
HERZOG: It is absolutely a critical concern, but it calls for better patient education, and that's why it's great that you have this forum tonight. But we need to educate our patients about what the correct screening intervals are and what the value of an annual visit with an OB/GYN is, and those are separate issues.
HILL: OK, I want to bring Dr. Minaya at the end. The guidelines, we should point out, they really aren't that much different though, from the existing guidelines, which stem from 2003.
MINAYA: Right.
HILL: So, there really isn't that much difference in terms of how often you should get tested. I think we may have a graphic for people to look at because we're tight on time. So then, why the concern now?
MINAYA: Well, that's what I would like to know. Why is the concern now?
HILL: No, I mean, concern on your part? Why is this so much more upsetting when you even as you said, they're really not that much different?
MINAYA: The treatment is not that much different. The guidelines say, OK, that if you are under the age -- an adolescent is described as somebody under the age of 20. OK? For those girls that are the guidelines, in terms of the treatment of, let's say, mild precancer cells, we don't have to treat them because the incidence of them developing cervical cancer in the future is almost zero percent. However, the follow-up is different. Sometimes it's six months, sometimes it's a year.
And like, responding to what Dr. Herzog just said, you know, how are we going to get our patients in the office to educate them in terms of preventing all of those dysplasias and just even get knowledge when you don't have to come to me until the age of 21 and some of my patients even start at 14 for activity.
HILL: Although we should point out that the guidelines do say, which the current do as well, if you're sexually active, obviously, you need to...
MINAYA: Within three years also.
HILL: It is a debate that probably a lot of people are having, not just watching on this show, but also that they're having in their home homes. Dr. Thomas Herzog Dr. Evelyn Minaya, we appreciate both of you sharing your time with us tonight. Thanks.
MINAYA: Thank you. HILL: Just ahead, the woman accused of cutting in line at a Wal- Mart and attacking police officers has her day in court. We'll see what she has to say in this racially-charged case.
Plus scenes straight out of the '60s, except they're from this week. Students protesting over dramatic fee hikes, slashed programs and job cuts on campus. We'll speak with them directly.
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HILL: Angry demonstrations at University of California campuses today as students protest a massive tuition hike in that state. Demonstrators clash with police at US Berkeley. Protestors also occupied a building on that campus. Police arrested three of the protesters inside. Students and faculty are outraged over the university Board of Regents decision to increase tuition by 32 percent over the next two years. Students also staging sit-ins at several other university campuses, among them UCLA.
Joining me now, two students who took part in those protests in L.A. Caitlin Lawrence-Toombs who's a fourth year political science major at UCLA, and Christopher Santos who's a third year psycho biology major also at UCLA.
Good to have both have you with us.
And Christopher, you actually helped organize some of the protests. When did you first get the idea that this could really call attention to what you see as an unjust rate hike?
CHRISTOPHER SANTOS, UCLA STUDENT PROTESTER: I mean we had the idea even before the year started. We had a walkout on the first day of school when UCLA and a lot of other UCs started because we already knew that the president tried to sneak in the proposal of a 32 percent fee increase in the summer when nobody was around and when he knew that nobody would create any chaos around that because it was just unacceptable. So, we had the idea, we started planning in the summer and we have been planning ever since.
HILL: And Caitlin, do you feel that so far these protests have had an effect? They're certainly getting you noticed.
CATLIN LAWRENCE-TOOMBS: Yeah, I definitely think to the media attention is really what counts. We want them to shows we're not going to let this slide by without us protesting and showing how upset we are.
HILL: So, what ultimately can you overturn, because they have voted, as we said, this 32 percent, which we should point out here, the regents say will help to stem cuts in courses, which I know there have been a number for you guys. Also that a third of this will actually help for financial aid and that students with a household income below $70,000 will not have to be concerned about these cuts. Their fees will be fully funded. Do you believe that you can get something overturned, Caitlin, and if so, how? LAWRENCE-TOOMBS: I don't know at this point how we can get it overturned, but I think we can work with the regents and develop a much better relationship with the regents to show that this isn't OK. We've been lobbying them, we've been talking to them for a while now and they still put this on us. And I think we need to work with them in the future to make sure these (INAUDIBLE) increases doesn't happen again.
HILL: Christopher, do you feel that they're listening to you? That they hear you?
SANTOS: That the regents are listening to us?
HILL: Yeah.
SANTOS: Well, I believe not because we did pull a comment on the morning of Wednesday and throughout the whole public comment they were just looking down and not paying attention to what the students were saying. So, not only that but also by passing the 32 percent fee increase they're definitely not listening to us and they're definitely not aware of a lot of the problems. I mean, they keep saying that this is going to cover all students, low income students, therefore getting a lot of communities that we have here at UCLA (INAUDIBLE) undocumented students, a lot of communities like the middle class community that are not going to have access to this university.
HILL: You mentioned some undocumented students. They will not be covered, they're not eligible for financial aid. Caitlin, I know you're from one of those many middle class families, though, that's also going to be hit by this. You say you're not eligible for financial aid, but your brother is going to school next year. So, how does this affect you? Can you take out more loans? How do you deal with that?
LAWRENCE-TOOMBS: Yeah. I'm going to have to take out more loans. My brother is actually starting UC Berkeley in January. And my parents are going to have a really hard time paying for both of us at the same time going to the University of California, especially with these fee increases. I'm graduating in spring, so luckily that will be over quickly, but it's going to be a lot harder, we're going to have to take out loans, it's going to really affect our choices in the future.
HILL: And so, Christopher, what if you can't get this overturned, you may have to take out more loans, but what's next? Is there another option for you? Another less expensive option where you can finish your schooling?
SANTOS: For my case, I mean people have been saying that there's options other than the UC, but I think we really need to think about that and I came to the UC because it was a public higher institution. I did not know that I was enrolling in a semi private institution. And, therefore, I think I have a right to say in this university. I started here since my freshman year and I don't believe that it's right for the regents or anybody else to tell us that, well, if you can't afford UCLA, then just go somewhere else. This is my university and this is the students' university and we're staying here.
HILL: Well, we will continue to follow this story as it develops. Christopher Santos, Caitlin Lawrence-Toombs, thank you both for your time tonight.
LAWRENCE-TOOMBS: Thank you.
SANTOS: Thank you.
HILL: Just ahead, fact or fiction. The controversy over the number jobs actually created by the massive stimulus plan. We're going to take you where the rubber meets the road. That's next.
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HILL: This just coming into us at CNN. A plea deal has been reached tonight in the case of a woman accused of cutting in line at Wal-Mart and assaulting police. Heather Ellis, Louisiana school teacher, took the stand today. She denied all charges in the 2007 incident. As part of her plea deal, as we understand it she has pled guilty to disturbing the peace and resisting arrest, those are both misdemeanors. She's been sentenced to one year unsupervised probation. She's also required to take an anger management class of no less than two hours and we're told she also must spend four days in the county detention center before the end of this year. Again, Heather Ellis pleading guilty. Coming up -- not pleading guilty, I should say, coming up with a plea deal.
Turning now to something on the minds of millions of Americans, jobs. There has been so much debate over just how many jobs the Obama administration stimulus plan has either created or saved. And the White House actually now backing away from its initial claim of creating more than 600,000 jobs.
There are, though, some jobs being created in this country and Kitty Pilgrim has the story of one young college graduate who's actually starting her career thanks to the stimulus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alison Barber graduated from Colorado state university last May, in one of the worst fields to find a job, construction management. She was surprised when a Denver area company, flush with stimulus money, recruited her after attending a college job fair.
ALISON BARBER, CASTLE ROCK CONSTRUCTION CO: A lot of our projects that Castle Rock has going on right now are stimulus funded and so that made, you know, a lot of money available to hire new employees like myself.
PILGRIM: Castle Rock Construction company says it was able to save 40 to 50 jobs using stimulus money it received for three projects. Alison is managing two projects that will give her work through July of next year. And she says she is grateful for the work. Some of her classmates may not be as lucky. Colorado has an unemployment rate of 6.9 percent compared to a national average of 10.2 percent.
BARBER: There's no doubt about it that our industry is, you know, been greatly influenced by all the money that is flowing from the stimulus package.
PILGRIM: The Obama administration is under attack from Republicans in Congress who claim it is overstating the number of stimulus jobs created. And significant errors have been found on the list of stimulus jobs on the government Web site Recovery.gov.
On Thursday, testifying before the house oversight and reform committee, Earl Devaney, the head of the government watchdog agency for the stimulus program, admitted the claim the stimulus money has saved or created 600,000 jobs was inaccurate.
EARL DEVANEY, RECOVERY ACCOUNTABILITY & TRANSPARENCY BOARD: I have no doubt that there's a lot of jobs being created. I think it could be above or below 640. I think missing reports might drive the job numbers up and I think there's enough inaccuracies in here to question the 640 number, it might go down.
PILGRIM: The White House touted its job creation figures a few weeks ago to show that the $780 billion stimulus package already is reaping benefits. While Congress looks into that, Alison is simply grateful for the work, no matter what the duration.
BARBER: A lot of them may look like short-term projects, but a job is a job and if any jobs are created, I think the stimulus package is doing what it's meant to do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, 10 percent of those who have gotten stimulus funds have not yet submitted reports. The stimulus web site claims to have saved or created many hundreds of thousands of jobs. Castle Rock says they were not able to create any jobs. Their stimulus money was to save jobs, At least 50 jobs, they think, Erica.
HILL: So, they can count 50 that they saved. But overall, how do you actually count or track the number of jobs that have been saved as a result of the stimulus?
PILGRIM: Oh, that's the great question, because it's a very inexact science, obviously. And you can't really tell how much business would have dropped off. It's really -- you know, speaking with Castle Rock, they said they think 40 to 50, but they can't possibly have an exact number on this.
HILL: So working for a small company like that, it's tough to put a number on it.
Kitty Pilgrim, thanks.
Just ahead at the top of the hour, sitting in for Campbell Brown tonight, Rick Sanchez will join us.
Hey, Rick.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: How is it possible, Erica, that a case like this could come to fruition? I mean, think about it, people jump in lines all the time, people get mad at them. This one happened at Wal-Mart. You've been talking about it and you hear that there's breaking news on this story, now. This thing got so nasty that there were members of the NAACP protesting on one side of the street. There were people were swastikas and banners and rebel flags on the other side of the street.
There's talk of 15-year sentences. And now there's this plea deal that apparently has been made. But this is interesting, because the jury already had the case. So, how is it possible while the jury's hearing the case, they come up with some kind of deal? And what does that tell us about facts of the case? We got a correspondent -- in fact, two who are standing by who are going to join us in just a little bit and break down what's gone on in the courtroom. A lot of folks all over the country are following this and we're going to bring it to you.
The other big story is the imam that everyone's been talking about who may have had ties to Nidal Hasan, may have driven him to the edge. This Muslim preacher, this imam, who really is two things, he is, first of all, interestingly enough, very Americanized. An imam who was Americanized and also very radicalized. What was his effect on the accused Fort Hood killer? We've got an exclusive report tonight that we're going to bring you right here and look forward to having that for you. Erica, back to you.
HILL: Looking forward to that, Rick. A few questions there you brought up that I know a lot of people want answers, so we'll be watching tonight at 8:00. Thanks.
And still ahead on this program, "Heroes." Tonight, we honor Private First Class Philip Canafax, awarded a Bronze Star with Valor and a Purple Heart. His story remarkable story is next.
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HILL: And now, "Heroes." It is our tribute to the men and women who serve this country in uniform. Tonight, we honor Private First Class Philip Canafax who suffered serious injuries from a grenade blast while serving in Iraq. Despite those injuries, Canafax rushed to the aid of his fellow soldiers and helped save their lives. Philippa Holland has his story.
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PHILIPPA HOLLAND, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Private First Class Philip Canafax was returning from a patrol mission in Iraq last December when an armor-piercing grenade was thrown into his vehicle and exploded.
PFC PHILIP CANAFAX, U.S. ARMY: When the explosion happened, the only thing I heard was a thud, because it was so loud it took my hearing right away. HOLLAND: As a driver and medic, he knew his first priority was to get his fellow soldiers to safety.
CANAFAX: There were four of us in the vehicle. As soon as we got to a safe area, we saw everyone stopped and I jumped in the back of the vehicle to start working on the gunner, I knew he was hurt the worst and I wanted to make sure he was taken care of.
HOLLAND: In the chaos what the medic didn't realize was that he too had suffered extensive injuries.
CANAFAX: I couldn't hear, both my ear drums were blown out. I had a pretty good concussion and I had quite a bit of shrapnel in my left arm and left leg.
HOLLAND: Last April, Private First Class Canafax was awarded a Bronze Star of Honor and a Purple Heart for saving the lives of his fellow troops while suffering wounds of his own.
CANAFAX: When I was told I would receive the award, I was a little -- I was actually very surprised. I didn't know that I had really done anything to deserve any kind of award. I just always looked at anything I'd done as doing my job and it was just part of the -- part of the -- being a combat medic.
HOLLAND: Today, he continues to undergo treatment for war wounds.
CANAFAX: I've had four surgeries since then. I've had one surgery immediately the night we got hit to take out some of the bigger pieces of the shrapnel. And then I've had three surgeries to repair my ear drums, so I could get some of my hearing back.
HOLLAND: And he continues to serve his country, trading combat boots for hospital scrubs at the Brook Army Medical Center in San Antonio.
CANAFAX: I think the most difficult thing has been adjusting to working in a hospital and having to interact with having limited hearing. The most rewarding thing is seeing patients that come in here initially that are hurt or sick that need help, and then seeing them get better over time and are finally able to go back like nothing was ever wrong.
HOLLAND: Philippa Holland, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: The Private Canafax will continue to serve the military at the Brook Army Medical Center while recuperating from his injuries. We wish him all the best and we would, of course, like to thank all the brave men and women in uniform for their service to this country.
From military heroes now, to everyday heroes. CNN will soon announce our "Hero of the Year." And you can watch it all. Join Anderson Cooper along with celebrities including Nicole Kidman and Carrie Underwood for an all-star tribute, it's this Thanksgiving night, 9:00 Eastern and Pacific.
Thanks for spending part of your evening with us. I'm Erica Hill. Up next, in for Campbell Brown, Rick Sanchez. Have a great weekend.
