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CNN Tonight

Can "19 Kids and Counting" Parents Save Family's Reputation?; Duggars Are Red State Heroes; Caitlyn Jenner's "Vanity Cover" Sparks Reaction; Newly Minted Caitlyn Jenner Has Reality Show in the Works; Motel Williams' Mission. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 02, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:03] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Breaking their silence. Can the parents of "19 Kids and Counting" save their family's tarnished reputation?

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are not reality TV star, they're red state heroes. In the wake of their son's molestation scandal is the right losing faith in the family?

And they're not the only one at hot water from "The Real Housewives" to "Honey Boo Boo" to "Duck Dynasty." Reality TV is getting a little too real. But could today's stars learn a lesson or two from the fallen idols of the 1970s?

Plus, newly minted superstar Caitlyn Jenner. It's no surprise that she's got a reality show in the works too. Will it answer all the questions?

But I want to begin this broadcast with Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar finally speaking out about their son Josh and his molestation scandal.

Joining me now to discuss us. Brian Stelter, CNN's senior media correspondent and Perez Hilton founder of PerezHilton.com. Good to see both of you gentlemen. Thank you for joining me here in the studio.

So, Megyn Kelly has a big sit-down interview tomorrow with the Duggar family, with Jim Bob and Michelle. It's really a big exclusive but you have some reporting behind the scenes about how this really came about.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, as the parents prepared to answer questions tomorrow, it's been almost two weeks since these reports were first published. It's been awfully long time, but they are now decided to actually answer questions.

What's really interesting the back story here, why they're deciding to talk to Megyn Kelly and who is helping them decide. We saw Mike Huckabee, the presidential candidate rush to the defense of the Duggar's. Given their long history.

LEMON: He used to work for Fox.

STELTER: That's right. It might surprise people or maybe it won't surprise people. The PR person that helps out Mike Huckabee is also helping out the Duggars. So, it's really an example of the link or the connections that happen between the two. The name is Chad Gallagher, he's the principal of Legacy Consulting. His PR. firm has been helping the Duggar's try to handle these crises.

They were instrumental in picking which network and which person, we got the first interview. Why this all matter? Well, it shows that the Duggars want to speak to their base. They want to speak to their Christian conservative base.

LEMON: Speaking of choir really...

STELTER: So, they're seeking choir. That's right. It could have sought out a morning show interview in ABC, in NBC, at CBS, in CNN. But going to Fox it seems like they're going to speak to their base instead.

And the idea that they're working with the same PR. guys that worked with Huckabee goes to show the deep connections that exist in this family.

LEMON: Before I get you Perez I want to talk to you about this because there is also controversy about how this came about. How the information was released. Megyn has said that the alleged reporting this is been, she calls it, "A like feasting on a carcass," right? And that the real outrage is in the leaking of the information to how this all came about. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, FOX HOST: Because what's happened here is Josh Duggar's private personal sealed records have been improperly released. It doesn't excuse any of his behavior and it's not meant to diminish it either.

But the records of the young girls have also been released, and in part their identity because the police records leave very little doubt about who they are and what family they are a part of.

So, all of this, you know, it's one thing if the Duggars want to talk about it and we'll get into that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KELLY: But the media didn't even pause. And there is a question about why they were so excited to feast on this carcass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is she right in that because, I mean, the allegations are so horrible. I mean, is there any, you know -- why would we focus on anything else? We should focus on how it came about, but that the other thing overshadows. I mean, it's just common sense. STELTER: Well, it's a detail, but the charges in the documents aren't

necessarily being refuted. We heard from Josh Duggar right away who said that he had done things that were awful.

LEMON: But, you know, the records aren't supposed to be sealed. They're sealed.

STELTER: That's right. And that's an important detail and I think you have heard that in the initial coverage about 11 days ago. It's slightly amusing that Fox News barely covered the scandal until Megyn Kelly was able to secure this interview.

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: Now they will covering it a lot more. But I do think we should keep in mind every story becomes political these days. This story is clearly a left, right, red, blue story. Let's not always make it about that. Let's try to see pass the red and blue here and see this for what it is. We need to know what happened to the victims.

LEMON: But that's hard to see, though, when you describe how they got the interview.

STELTER: Exactly.

LEMON: Go ahead, Perez. You wanted to add.

PEREZ HILTON, PEREZHILTON.COM FOUNDER: And I'm curious to hear from them in their own words because, you know, it's one thing to read a statement. It's another thing to see somebody look into their eyes and to be able to tell, are they giving me a canned answer, is this authentic. Do they feel they've handled it in an appropriate way or not? I mean, there are a lot of questions to be answered.

STELTER: Especially because some of the victims were family members. Because we're talking about family members. That's something that Megyn Kelly was sort of tip-toeing around yesterday. We will see if she goes at it directly in this interview. But that's one of the most sensitive parts about the story.

LEMON: Yes. But also and we're talking about children. You're a parent and, you know, these issues, these topics, when you talk about that, I mean, they become very personal, especially for most people, but especially for parents.

[22:05:01] Megyn has said this is not going to be a cross-examination. This is an interview that she wants and that America wants. But what would you like to hear from them?

HILTON: I'd like to hear them respond to the allegations that the parents tried to cover it up. I don't know if they'll refute that or not. But that would complicate matters for me.

LEMON: How so?

HILTON: Because, you know, if as soon as they found out they went to the authorities and they went to get their son help, that would be one thing. But if they tried to, you know, keep that hidden; it just leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth.

LEMON: What about the victims as well, how the daughters are handling it, right? Because they are the victims in all of this. But I want to ask you this. You were talking about this, you know, red state, blue state, that sort of thing. Why do you think that is -- is that come about because of the Christian part of this? Has it come about because of the Huckabee part of it? Why do you think that is?

STELTER: Sometimes it makes stories easier. I don't mean to make us all sound lazy watching it at home. Sometimes I do this. It's easy to fall back into the basic stereotypes. But actually they're not always true. Sometimes it's more you look at stories when they're not just left and right, not just red and blue.

But in a case like this, people do tend to retreat to their camps. We're seeing it to some extent with Caitlyn Jenner as well. I hope this can go past that. TLC though, has to think about a red state audience. They have to make a heartland audience. That's why they haven't canceled the show or put it back on the air. They're taking this middle ground where they're not doing anything right now.

LEMON: Does it matter though, if the advertisers, the people who are paying, right, the people who you -- why you need to support your show...

STELTER: For sure.

LEMON: ... they've already spoken, it appears, Perez.

HILTON: Well, they have, in droves. I think that, you know, TLC set a precedent with how they handled the "Honey Boo Boo" situation. And I think now they just need to handle this one in a similar manner.

STELTER: Nobody is going to be watching the interview more closely than TLC executives.

LEMON: Right.

STELTER: Right. Because so far they have sat back. They said, we're going to buy out of this, this is a family in crisis, we'll let them figure it out. Well, now the family is speaking for the first time. TLC is going to examine to this putting this finger up in the air a little bit to see what to do.

LEMON: I think that they're doing that already. Thank you, Brian. Perez, stick around. I'm going to need you for a minute here.

Now I want to bring in Crystal Wright, editor of Conservative Black Chick.com. Washington post reporter, Hunter Schwartz as well, and attorney and victims' right advocate Lisa Bloom joins us. Legal analyst for Avo.com. Thank you all for joining us this evening. Good to see all of you.

Hunter, I want to start with you, because you wrote something for the Washington Post.com today that the Duggar story epitomizes the rise of red state TV. We were just talking about that connection. What do you mean by that?

HUNTER SCHWARTZ, WASHINGTON POST: Well, a lot of it has to do with the geography. You look at a lot of the early reality show families. And they started out in blue states. You have a lot of them in California. The Osbornes, Kardashians, the families on "The Real Housewives" born of Orange county.

And by the mid-2000s networks started to branch out and film in different states. Red states. Rural areas, oftentimes in the deep south. And you had the Duggars, who live in Arkansas; you have the Robertson of "Duck Dynasty" who live in Louisiana.

"Honey Boo Boo" was filmed in Georgia. Even Sarah Palin and her family they had their own reality show on TLC. And so, this was really a matter of geography and networks branching out. And as that happened you started to see more reality stars who have conservative backgrounds, who perhaps are Christians, and sort of what we've seen over the past 10 years.

LEMON: Yes. Crystal, do you think that, you know, speaking of red state television, do you think that republicans have a Duggar problem?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE BLACK CHICK.COM EDITOR: I think America has a reality TV problem. America is addicted to reality television. But look, republicans, myself included, we like to watch televisions, Don, just like liberals do.

So, I don't think this is any -- I think TLC and other networks are smart. They know that they had an audience, a captive audience out there that was perhaps untapped. But let's not forget the Kardashians are in California.

We have the, you know, "The Housewives" franchise, I believe, was in Orange County, which is in California, a very liberal state. "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette" usually start out in California and they migrate somewhere else. So, you know, I have more of an issue with reality TV on a whole.

LEMON: OK.

WRIGHT: Yes.

LEMON: But Lisa, many conservatives see a double standard in how people have pounced on this scandal. Do you think there is a very serious crime here that's -- that the serious issue at the root here that has nothing to do with politics. Is that correct?

LISA BLOOM, VICTIM'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: well, that's right. I don't see what the double standard is. The issue is whether the parents effectively protected their own daughters who were victims of child sexual abuse that's been admitted to, or whether they covered up to protect their son, whether they kept the perpetrator in the home.

They went to a police officer who was a friend a year later. That police officer was later found to be a child porn enthusiast to such a degree that he got 50-plus years in prison for child porn.

[22:10:03] You know, and now they're going, by the way, to a friendly TV network to do the interview. So, it doesn't seem to me like this family really gets it that it should be about protecting the victim, at a minimum removing the perpetrator from the home, getting him serious sexual predator counseling and not just a slap on the wrist.

LEMON: But isn't this mostly the outrage at least about the hypocrisy of it because they hold themselves up as being sort of the moral fiber or fabric of society and everyone should imitate them? Isn't that what this is really about, not necessarily about that they're conservative? Lisa?

BLOOM: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, you espouse family values. Josh Duggar was in a prominent position at the family research council, a conservative family values group. What does family values mean if you fail to protect your own daughters from a sexual predator?

Does it mean opposing, for example, LGBT rights and civil rights ordinances and transgender rights as the Duggars did very openly? If that's what family values means to them it's appropriate to all the rest of us to call them out on their hypocrisy.

LEMON: Hunter, in a similar frame, why is it that it seems like republicans and not democrats are forced to answer for reality stars gone wrong because there are plenty of child stars who are both democrat?

SCHWARTZ: Well, there is a celebrity gap politically. Hollywood tends to lean left. And so, when we're talking about celebrities who support republican candidates, that leaves you with oftentimes country singers, athletes and reality stars.

And so I mean, that's part of the problem when you have celebrity endorsements in politics or elsewhere is you can't always control what they say and what they do. And so, that's part of the risk that you get when you take their support is sometimes you're going to have to make a statement about their actions.

LEMON: Crystal, I want to go back to something that you said. You said you think that you believe America or we have a reality show problem.

WRIGHT: Right.

LEMON: And you don't blame democrats or republicans. You say it's our fault for even watching the stuff?

WRIGHT: Well, absolutely. And I think the reality shows prey on the grotesque or rather they -- reality make their money rather off of people's personal problems. And I agree with Lisa.

I think the Duggars have a big problem because they hold themselves -- they're very sanctimonious. They hold themselves on a pedestal. They say, you know, we can procreate like nobody's business. We have 19 kids. We're highly religious. And, oh, by the way, our son, you know, molested girls when he was a young man, and it's like they're trying to I feel like excuse it away, brush it under the rug. And I have a big problem with that.

I don't think it's a conservative or democrat thing. I think it's a real problem. And when you put yourself in the spotlight like they did, they -- look, let's remember. They agreed to make their life available to America at large and they have to pay the consequences for this, you know.

I think that it -- anyway, I don't have any kind of sympathy for them, and I think that Megyn Kelly saying that she's not going to cross- examine them is a problem for me. Megyn Kelly is a journalist. And we know that if that family had been liberal, she wouldn't be saying that.

I think that their actions are -- you know, they need to face the music. He was head of the family research council, Josh Duggar, which is a non-profit that is in the business of holding up family values.

LEMON: Yes.

WRIGHT: And I think it's a problem for conservatives. I would say the same thing, Don, about what Bruce Jenner is doing. So...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes. And we're going to talk about that and we're going to have you here to speak about that as well.

WRIGHT: No problem. Yes.

LEMON: And we may cross-examine you about that.

WRIGHT: OK.

LEMON: So, we've a lot more on this.

WRIGHT: OK.

LEMON: Thank you very much. When we come back, it's not just today's reality TV. The '70s saw their share of train wreck child stars. I'm going to talk to one who battled his own demons and has a message for today's stars.

Plus, Caitlyn Jenner. Will she be a better parent than Bruce Jenner was?

And Mon Tele's mission. What is he doing to save a fellow veteran and why time may be running out.

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Reality TV can be a risky business. One day stars are on top of the world and then just as fast they can fall. And at CNN's Jean Casarez reports today's reality TV icons might want to look at what happened to some of the sitcom stars of the 1970s.

(BEGIN VDIEOTAPE) JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We may not put our reality stars on a pedestal but when they fall some falls hard. Teresa Giudice of "The Real Housewives" of New Jersey always kept fans glued with her unpredictable antics. But a federal fraud conviction of Giudice and her husband meant the house wives' star is doing 15 months in federal prison in Connecticut.

Meanwhile, the ratings for the show have taken a nose dive. The matriarch of "Honey Comes Boo Boo" had her show axed by TLC when report surfaced that June Shannon was dating a former flame and now convicted child molester.

TLC may have called it quits with "Honey Boo Boo" but they haven't yet canceled "19 Kids and Counting" despite accusations that brother Josh Duggar molested five girls when he was a teen including his own sisters.

Danny Bonaduce, star of the '70 show, "The Partridge Family," are no stranger to personal struggles himself. With several arrests and past issues with sobriety says, he is very surprised TLC hasn't yet pulled the plug on the Duggars.

DANNY BONADUCE, KZOK RADIO HOST: I think the line is on always will be when sponsors bail. So, if we're talking about the Duggars, the sponsors will always bail at pedophilia. You cannot recover. "Honey Boo Boo" done over the same charge.

CASAREZ: Duggar did post an apology on Facebook. And who can't forget Phil Robertson of "Duck Dynasty." Seth MacFarlane didn't at this weekend Critics Choice Awards. Robertson fortune in 2013 was estimated to be $15 million.

SETH MACFARLANE, TV & FILM DIRECTOR: Let's also not forget that I'm being declared a genius on the network that airs "Duck Dynasty." This is a show -- the show whose cast members believe hurricanes are caused by gay marriage.

CASAREZ: Although A & E initially suspended Robertson indefinitely after he told GQ Magazine that homosexuality was sinful, after vocal protests the controversial family head was put back on the show.

BONADUCE: I have to tell you it's horrible, horrible lines, but it is good TV. I don't respect anybody on the shows but I respect the people who are profiting from it.

[22:20:04] CASAREZ: The '70s were different. There were fewer channels and sitcom was king. Kids across America worshipped their childhood idols. But all our adoration met reality when our stars began to fall. As the '70s began, America fell in love with Buffy on "Family Affairs" starring Brian Keith and Sebastian Cabot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that keeping us cool?

CASAREZ: The country was mesmerized by lunch boxes, dolls and clothes associated with her character. In 1976, the 18-year-old Anissa Jones was dead. An autopsy found an accidental overdose. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it would be nice if you introduce this.

CASAREZ: The heartthrob of every young girl in the '70s. David Cassidy of "The Partridge Family." it wasn't until many years later when Cassidy became all too human. Multiple DUI arrests followed by no- contest please, followed by rehab.

BONADUCE: They rooted for the guy. And they said wonderful things. They said, boy, I'm so disappointed in David Cassidy, but God bless him and I hope he turns it all around. And the difference between these people, like the Duggars, nobody is saying God bless him, I love him, I root for him. Nobody roots for him.

CASAREZ: The former Danny Partridge is currently a morning radio show host in Seattle. He succeed in putting his issues behind him but feels the Duggars may not fail as well.

Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And there he is right there. Danny Bonaduce joining me from Seattle. I see the needle behind you. Danny, it was a double whammy for you because you were a child star from the 1970s in "The Partridge Family," then you had your own reality show, right?

BONADUCE: Yes.

LEMON: Soo, let's talk about reality shows first. These are people whose lives are really put under a great amount of scrutiny. Can anyone, anyone hold up under that pressure?

BONADUCE: Well, I think that it depends. You know, whatever you shoot without a script is reality TV. You and I are right now are participating in reality TV. My reality show, "Breaking Bonaduce," in my opinion, whoever made a book from it including myself, God bless him, I think it was shameful, it was terrible. You know, I feel that I -- I was pretty drunk around my kids. I feel like sold out my whole family on that. When you do something like that...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So, why do people do it, then?

BONADUCE: ... you just do the fall.

LEMON: Why do people do it then?

BONADUCE: No matter -- you know, if you look back in -- and you watch why does Mavis get on the bus from Kentucky and go to Hollywood, it's all about being famous. That seems to be, I mean, that seems to be the root of everything.

And it comes down to the Kardashians. Because everybody else has a bit of a talent or a skill or something. But it was -- we, you know, we discovered that Kim Kardashian is famous for being famous and she's great at it.

LEMON: Kim Kardashian is famous for making a sex tape. And then she's famous for being famous.

BONADUCE: True enough.

LEMON: But it is -- I mean, she became famous. It's much beyond that now. And probably one of the most wealthy people in the country, or however you want to, you know, actresses or personalities.

BONADUCE: I must admit. You know, my viewing is in this screen and just got that. Well, I come across and it's like Kardashians, I watch and I'm a fan and Scott, very nice boy, Scott Disik is often plowed drunk on that show. And I think, man, are you going to look back with regret.

LEMON: Yes. I wonder how much of that is real, how much is scripted though. So, let's be real. A normal family wouldn't make very interesting television.

BONADUCE: Right.

LEMON: Are these shows, are they train wrecks on purpose or they train wrecks waiting to happen?

BONADUCE: I think when you start, when you're watching a show and you're seeing, you know, the Housewives of Orange County that you were talking about, I think that they all agreed going in, hey, we need you to yell. We draw the line at hitting, even though they do it. It's one of my wives' favorite shows.

I think they play it up because they want to keep their job. They replace those housewives pretty often. And so, I think they play it up. Without drunk they're going to get, how mean they're going to get. How many guys they're going to sleep with. I think it's part of the show. But pretty soon it becomes truth and pretty soon you're a drunk lady screaming.

LEMON: Yes. I said that, you know,6 when I introduced you it was a double whammy for you because you had your own reality show but then you were a child star in the 1970s. So, in terms of child stars you went through some very tough times when you were growing up in the spotlight. What was the most difficult part about that?

BONADUCE: About growing up a famous, you know, when a lot of people, and I think rightly so, think that it must have had a gigantic effect on me. But I've never known anything else. To say this anywhere besides being on television with you I would be condemned. But the fact is I've been famous my whole life. I get less famous every day. So, it's what I do. It didn't affect my problems that badly.

LEMON: That's true.

BONADUCE: It is true.

LEMON: You're right. Because when I was growing up you were there, you know what. I mean, it was you.

BONADUCE: Yes, yes. I was what there was. Now I'm this.

LEMON: Yes.

BONADUCE: But the truth is, you know, tomorrow morning if I will wake up just a little less famous. You know, right now I look like Danny Partridge's father who didn't live well and it all was going to go away. But that's why you do things for the fame.

[22:25:06] LEMON: Well, I wonder, though, if there is any responsibility from the folks who find, you know, these children, put them on television, because when you're an adult, maybe you can deal with it better. But when you've been famous all your life and people have handed you things and you don't really have to go to normal schools, I just wonder how much of a responsibility goes just beyond that child star and maybe just some of the network executives.

BONADUCE: Well, I believe that there is a business model and its get sponsors and get viewers. And I think if you can get sponsors and get viewers, as long as we're talking families, I think it's the responsibility of the parent.

Now, if you film a parent strike a child, well, you have to pull him now. But whatever fireworks you get until then it's the parent's job to mind their own children. I don't think it's the network's job to say, hey, you've gone too far.

LEMON: yes. Do you have any advice for some of the families going through this and maybe a public scandal like the Duggars?

BONADUCE: I will tell you this and I end up saying this all the time on my radio show. I do a segment called "The Life Coach," believe it or not. And it's because I've been everywhere and have done anything.

And people calling up and go, this is happening my life, this is happening, what should I do? And the answer sometimes is, wait, just wait. And if you're in a scandal, you know, people remember forever. People will always going to say, hey, Danny, you fought your demons. But Don Lemon is pretty nice to me. It will all go away and level out if you just wait.

LEMON: OK. So, now I'll going to be mean.

BONADUCE: Go ahead.

LEMON: We have this thing called the '70s here.

BONADUCE: Yes.

LEMON: And I know you hate doing this. Partridge Family theme song. Are you ready?

BONADUCE: I want you to know, Don, I've absolutely never sung this song ever. But if Don Lemon wants to do it, I'll do it.

LEMON: Are you ready?

BONADUCE: Yes.

LEMON: Hello world, there's a song that we're singing...

BONADUCE: There's a song that we're singing. Come on get happy.

LEMON: To make you happy.

BONADUCE: I don't remember that.

LEMON: A whole lot of love in this world we'll be bringing. You were on the show. Will make you happy.

BONADUCE: Hang on. Here's the big one. Five of us, and mom working all day we knew we could help her if our music would pay, hey. That was good.

LEMON: Come on get happy. Thank you. Danny Partridge.

(CROSSTALK)

BONADUCE: Thank you, Don. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: The '70s premiers June 11th. Danny Bonaduce will be watching it June 11th, 9 p.m. right here on CNN. Thank you so much, my friend. And best of luck to you. Take care of yourself. Behave, all right.

BONADUCE: Thank you very much, Don.

LEMON: All right. I'll be listening. All right.

Reaction to Caitlyn Jenner's stunning debut in Vanity Fair. Not all of it positive. Why one GOP candidate is raising some eye brows with a joke about pretending to be transgender.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:30:00] LEMON: Caitlyn Jenner's stunning debut on the cover of "Vanity Fair" is still, well, sinking in for a lot of -- whole lot of people. Reactions are both positive and there are some negative as well. And I want to talk about it with Zoey Tur, transgender TV news reporter who is special correspondent for Inside Edition and radio host for KFI in Los Angeles. KFI or KFL?

ZOEY TUR, INSIDE EDITION CORRESPONDENT: KFI.

LEMON: I want to make sure I get it right. Because it looks the same in the front.

TUR: a.m. at 6.40.

LEMON: All right.

TUR: More stimulating talk. LEMON: Oh, Lord, here we go. Zoe. Back with me is Crystal Wright and

Perez Hilton. Last time you got me right at the end of the segment, Zoey, and you're like, and you're a very handsome man and I was like, I turned, you know, I'm black, I turned rust. I didn't red.

TUR: You are a handsome guy.

LEMON: Well, thank you.

TUR: And a great singer.

LEMON: Thank you.

TUR: Who knew?

LEMON: Thank you very much. All right. This has gone off the rails. Before it goes totally after the rails, you said it in April, that trans people need an icon. But Bruce Jenner is the worst possible choice. Do you still feel that way?

TUR: In the Washington Post Op-Ed?

LEMON: Yes, did you say that? Did you think that?

TUR: Yes, I know. I did. And, yes, I felt that way. I'm hoping to be proven wrong. And Jenner said clearly in this article that she's done lying, that Caitlyn Jenner is now going to tell the truth. So, we'll see.

But so far, again, I'm not real impressed because what we're seeing is a rollout of a product. You know, this is all about a product, a highly produced product. The photos are highly sexualized. She is very attractive. Well photographed. But, again...

LEMON: Does that bother you, that it's highly sexualized?

TUR: No, not at all.

LEMON: OK.

TUR: To see a 65-year-old trans woman, you know, being so sexy. But this is about sex. It is a statement. It is a product. And this is the continuation of the Kardashian line.

LEMON: Perez is about to jump out of his chair now.

HILTON: So, well, she is a Jenner, after all. Sex is great. Selling stuff is great. But, just like myself, and, Don, are not representatives for our multi communities we're members of, Caitlyn is one of many voices.

And I think, for the trans community, not a trans person myself, there needs to be more visibility. So, the more people who are open about, you know, their gender, the more change, the more dialogue that could be had in the households where real hearts and minds are going to be opened... (CROSSTALK)

TUR: I think it's great that I'm not the only transgender person on the air now. Laverne Cox would agree with you.

LEMON: That is interesting. Yes. So, I want to say that this is the first time Crystal has not said anything. Crystal, you have two people on who are outtalking you. But not everyone is really so happy about this.

Erik Erikson, who works for Fox now, and he wrote for Redstate.com. He also used to work for CNN, by the way, just for transparency here. He said, "If an alcoholic told you that his authentic self was to drink, you would not encourage that. If a person told you his authentic was to be attracted to small boys you would not encourage that. If a person told you that his authentic self was to mutilate his body you would not encourage that. When a 65-year-old former Olympian tells you that he has decided after all these years that he is a she, your first reaction should not be to congratulate the man on finally finding his authentic self but steering him into therapy." What's your reaction, Crystal?

[22:35:07] WRIGHT: My reaction is I don't care what Bruce Jenner is. I don't care what Bruce Jenner calls himself. I don't think -- I think Bruce Jenner is doing this for Bruce Jenner. It's very much a product. It's a promotion. I don't think it's good for the transgender community.

LEMON: What's wrong with doing it for himself?

WRIGHT: I particularly don't, well, because I particularly don't think it's going to help young people really struggling. You know what my mom said today? Which I think -- I think my mom is right about a lot of things. You know what she said, she said, so, what's next? Black people -- we're going to all of a sudden start bleaching our skin because we don't like being black? And we're going to do this and we're going to be on the cover of "Vanity Fair"? I guarantee you, Don, nobody would want to shoot you...

LEMON: What does that have to do with the price of tea? I mean, people have been bleaching themselves forever. I mean, listen...

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: They have been doing it.

TUR: It's called hydroquinone and blacks are major consumers of it.

WRIGHT: No. They have not been doing hydroquinone or whatever however you pronounce it to the agree of Michael Jackson. It's not something that black people wake up and say, hey, I think I want to be white today.

LEMON: What does that have to do -- I don't know what this has to do with being trans. It has nothing to do with being trans. WRIGHT: Well, no. But I am making a point. I'm also making a point.

You asked me about Erik Erikson. I think that a black people, Eric had a point in that what he's saying is, if a black person all of a sudden said that I just don't think I'm black anymore, you know, you would -- everybody would go, what? I think we're giving Bruce Jenner, Caitlyn, whatever you want to call her too much attention. OK. Bruce Jenner get...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I still don't understand. I don't understand the connection. What am I getting wrong here? I don't understand the...

HILTON: They're clearly not as supportive as I would have imagined. I mean, why would you support it...

(CROSSTALK)

TUR: Not everybody supported it.

HILTON: ... and we're seen on this panel.

LEMON: Because, wait, wait. Hang on. Because here's the thing. I think you're saying that, if someone doesn't like that they have curly hair they get straight hair. If someone doesn't like that they have straight hair they get curly hair.

WRIGHT: No, I don't think curly hair. I talked about black.

LEMON: That's a whole different thing than being born feeling that you're born within the wrong gender. That's not the same thing.

HILTON: Yes.

WRIGHT: I'm not talking the media...

(CROSSTALK)

HILTON: Caitlyn said it herself.

TUR: May I interject for a moment?

LEMON: OK. Let's let the trans person get. Go ahead.

WRIGHT: OK. But I just want to say one thing about Caitlyn, really quickly.

LEMON: Yes.

WRIGHT: I think real courage is not trying to make money, millions of dollars off of coming out and having -- changing your gender. Real courage is not doing this in the public way, trying to sexualize photos in "Vanity Fair," because the average transgender person really struggling could never have that kind of reception and is never going to make millions of dollars off their struggle.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That is a true point. That's true.

WRIGHT: But real courage, what Bruce Jenner is doing and Caitlyn is not courage.

HILTON: Yes, it is. Real courage is living your life and not committing suicide. Real courage is doing what you need to do to live. I'm Bruce, Caitlyn loves his family. We've seen that on television. The last thing that Caitlyn would want to do is hurt her family.

WRIGHT: You know the suicide rate of transgender?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes.

WRIGHT: Renee Richards.

HILTON: I know this.

WRIGHT: OK.

LEMON: All right. But, listen Crystal. I agree with you about the average trans person and that needs to be addressed. But I don't see anything wrong with anyone making money, whatever. Make your money baby however you're going to make it. Go ahead, Zoey.

WRIGHT: But you had a problem with the Duggars. I mean, we just talked about a segment where the Duggars are being...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: For doing something illegal. I don't have problems with the Duggars.

WRIGHT: Bruce Jenner is no exception. Come on, Don.

LEMON: Hang on. I don't have a problem with the Duggars making money off a reality TV show. I have a problem with child molestation.

WRIGHT: I have a problem with child molestation too.

LEMON: That's an issue. But then making money, let them make their money.

WRIGHT: But I think we talked about the Duggars in different thing.

LEMON: We're going to -- I have to take a break.

WRIGHT: Then we talked about Bruce Jenner.

LEMON: All right. I'm going to take a break and then I'll let you respond, Zoey and we'll continue this conversation. All right. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK. We took a breath. We're having a heated conversation about Caitlyn Jenner. Back with me now, Zoey Tur, Crystal Wright and Perez Hilton. And these conversations are going to happen and they're happening around the country. Zoey, pull this back on the rails for us. Go ahead.

TUR: Well, one thing some of your guests are conflating publicity with something that's very serious. Gender dysphoria is a brain anomaly. You can see it in MRI scans, CT scans of the brain. This is brain anomaly that could only be cured, only be fixed with hormone replacement therapy and for many sexual reassignment surgery.

So, this is something you treat with hormones. And Jenner does suffer from gender dysphoria. Jenner has received the diagnosis. Has two medical clearance letters. The same thing I have went through. To conflate this with some sort of publicity-seeking behavior is absurd. The way Jenner is packaging this and packaging the transition, may be a different story.

You can argue about the way they're rolling Jenner out as a product, but the underlying issue, and then also quoting some "troglodyte" that calls it a mental illness is absurd. And the DSM was changed to reflect that.

LEMON: That was replaced in 2012, right.

TUR: Right. So, what we're talking about is a very serious issue where we have up to 69 percent of trans people or transsexuals attempt suicide. So, we're talking about a staggering numbers. To get into a yelling match with a -- Crystal, who is obviously a narcissist and an entertainment show person with a blog site, conflating this, this is absurd. And it's not helping move the issues forward.

LEMON: Yes. Zoey, I love you but let's not call names. I understand Crystal -- a lot of people feel the way you feel. I just don't understand your comparisons and I don't want to beat up on you. But I want you -- do think that most people in America understand, though, what Zoey is saying, that it's not, you know, it's not what people think it is. This is a medically diagnosed condition.

WRIGHT: Right. Well, I think Zoey makes some really good points. I don't think people -- I think it is a medically diagnosed condition. But I -- and I'm not going to name-call this because that's -- I'm not going to challenge what Zoey feels and believes.

[22:45:02] But I have a right to believe what I believe. And that's -- Zoey started off the conversation by saying that she was very bothered by the sexualized pictures of Bruce Jenner. I mean, I'm sorry, Caitlyn.

TUR: I didn't say that. No.

LEMON: No. I ask her. She didn't say she was bothered. No. She said that they were very -- no, she didn't.

WRIGHT: You did, so you said that they were over -- well, maybe I heard some male.

LEMON: She said, they were very sexualized.

TUR: You can't hear when you're talking.

WRIGHT: Well, you're talking over me I was trying to answer questions.

LEMON: OK. Let's have a constructive conversation.

WRIGHT: OK. I'm trying to have a constructive conversation, Don. I did not interrupt Zoey. My point is this. I do not -- and I have a right to my perspective, and I think a lot of people who maybe come from a different point of view, who haven't struggled with being transgender look at what Bruce Jenner is doing -- and I don't think that he's not -- that I think he is Caitlyn now. I believe that.

That's not what I said. I don't like the fact that he is capitalizing off of this, doing it in a very public way. I know a person who is going through this struggle. It might surprise you.

TUR: You know -- that's like saying you know a black person. And she is a she now. Caitlyn Jenner is a she now.

WRIGHT: Can you excuse me? Actually the person I'm talking about is not a she now. I said I know somebody.

TUR: Caitlyn Jenner is a she.

WRIGHT: I just think that what bothers a lot of people like me and Erik Erikson is exactly how you're behaving, Zoey. We do not agree with what Bruce Jenner is doing. I think some of -- I think he -- she, Caitlyn, believes -- is who she is today. I think she did this in a very calculated manner to make millions of dollars to pay for her Malibu home, her Porsche. I find it with...

HILTON: That's Caitlyn. You know, she has a mortgage to pay. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no road map...

WRIGHT: And I don't think he's helping the trans community and I have a right to do this.

HILTON: ... to how you should, you know, malediction (ph) in public.

WRIGHT: Renee Richards, who was one of the first people to go through this in a very public way. Renee Richards, who you may know, famous tennis player, has come out and advocated against the surgery because she said that she believes that her -- she still doesn't feel matched.

LEMON: I have to go.

WRIGHT: And there is a lot of scientific evidence that shows that when people have this operation they commit suicide.

LEMON: I have so much to go. I've got to run. I'm so sorry. I have to go.

WRIGHT: OK.

LEMON: As Zoey said before, not everyone is going to do it in the same manner. So, when there are trans people now coming into the spotlight now, people will do it differently. And that's what progress is about, diversity, even within the trans community.

So, thank you all for sharing your stories and I want all of you to come back. And this is a tough conversation many people are having. thank you. I'm overtime now. I'm going into "AC360," so, sorry. Thank you, guys.

When we come right back, Montel Williams. Because that is closest to his heart right now. His mission to help a former Marine Corps veteran.

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Montel Williams is a man with a mission. Freeing Marine Corps Veteran Amir Hekmati who has been a prisoner in Iran for four years. And Montel joins me now along with Sarah Hekmati, the sister of Amir Hekmati, and Ramy Kurdi, his brother-in-law. Hello, to all of you. Thank you for joining us.

SARAH HEKMATI, SISTER OF AMIK HEKMATI: Thank you for having us.

LEMON: Sarah, your brother Amir, former U.S. Marine has been held in Iran since 2011. Does your family have contact with Amir?

HEKMATI: You know, over the past year we've been allowed contact to have short phone calls once a day with my mother primarily. But prior to that, we had no communication with him.

LEMON: He is one of four Americans currently being held prisoner in Iran.

HEKMATI: That's correct.

LEMON: And you and their families testified before the House Foreign Relations Committee this morning. I want you to listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEKMATI: As a tourist, Amir was kidnapped from the home of his relatives and taken to Evin Prison. As a tourist, he was held in a one meter by one meter cell, allowed out for only 10 minutes a week to stretch his legs. He was beaten on his feet with cables, tasered repeatedly. He was held for months in solitary confinement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Sarah, what is it like to imagine your brother in those conditions?

HEKMATI: I can't even look at our coffee table the same way. I can't look at a dressing room the same way. I mean, for any of you that can imagine being in a one meter by one meter space, imagine being in that for several months back-to-back and not being allowed to come out of that for more than 10 minutes once a week.

I can't. It's so difficult and traumatic for my family. And I don't even know how my brother, when I hear his voice, when he calls, he still sounds like the same brother. But I can't imagine what his mind has gone through.

LEMON: You say as a tourist. What was he doing there?

HEKMATI: So, he had never been to Iran. We were all born and raised here. I've gone twice in the past. And this was his first trip because my grandmother is elderly. It was hard for her to visit the U.S. and he was there for two weeks. He obtained a tourist visa and was able to travel. And within the two-week trip he was about to return home, which is when they captured him.

LEMON: Montel, you were in D.C. supporting these families today. Why is this so important to you? And we've spoken about this before. Why is it so important to you?

MONTEL WILLIAMS, THE MONTEL WILLIAMS SHOW HOST: well, you have said, Don, you know, as a tourist. He was there and he's in prison right now because he wore our uniform. He was one of the people that was out here protecting what we call our freedom, our Constitution.

You know, this family is the perfect American dream. Here immigrants who came to America and they were so proud of the fact that they had an opportunity for their children, and they applauded their son when he enlisted in the Marine Corps and decided to serve for our country.

Now the reason why he's being held right now because he supposedly the charge he did collaboration -- cooperating with the enemy. Well, he was a marine and that's why he's in prison. So, that's the reason why I'm involved in this, Don. Because, number one, we leave no marine behind.

But we also have to understand that, you know, we have people right now that want to make sure that we go to war as quickly as we can again and the same marines are going to question. If I get in trouble later, are you going to come and protect me?

And I've got to say this real quick. This family is doing this all on their own, Don. They're not getting any, you know, cooperation and they're not really getting any money or support. So, you know, please, if you can let me just say this. I want people out there who are listening right now, go up on, you know, give forward.com/forward/freeamir. You can follow me on, you know, montel_williams and put up the hash tag free Amir now. Thank you. Please. Thank you clp.

[22:55:03] LEMON: The web site is up right now.

WILLIAMS: And thank you.

LEMON: And I have to ask you. You're quite welcome, of course. Ramy, are you worried that this isn't getting the attention it needs because of the larger ongoing nuclear relations with Iran? Should this be part of that deal?

RAMY KURDI, BROTHER-IN-LAW OF AMIR HEKMATI: You know, we commend the U.S. and Iran for having a nuclear deal. Amir is not part of any deal. He is a human being. You can't deal a human being, especially an innocent one. He's committed no crime.

But our plea is for diplomatic release. Not any conditions. Amir himself wanted an unconditional release. So, that's really our push. We want to create a humanitarian gesture. There are multiple outlets for Iran to help free Amir. We hope that they comply with them.

WILLIAMS: But, Don, one more thing, I'll just make a little quick point. you know, in the last couple of days -- please, believe me, the coverage that we've had for, you know, Caitlyn Jenner and the coverage that we've had for a lot of the reality things that are going on in America, you know, are necessary

Caitlyn is doing something that's really brave. But here is a family that has a real reality show. Living for four years trying to get their family member out. You know, we have two million people sign up to hear Caitlyn's story.

We're barely getting a couple hundred thousand people. A hundred people to sign up to listen to the fact that the only reason why that story is able to be played is for our marines who put their lives and soldiers who put their lives on the line. So, please. I mean, you now, we're covering a lot of things today. and the news is so fragmented. We don't want the story to die after today.

LEMON: Yes. Montel. Sarah, Ramy, thank you.

HEKMATI: Thank you.

KURDI: Thank you very much, Don.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)