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CNN Tonight
Duggar Scandal Update; People in Chicago Taking Sides over Director Spike Lee's New Movie; Violent Crime on the Rise in American Cities. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 04, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: Battle lines drawn in the Duggar sex abuse scandal and new statements from the family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: Somebody was kind of to get us and thought, you know this family is, had this, I don't know if he knows about so I want to try to expose him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. On one side, parents, Jim Bob and Michelle, telling Fox News they're outraged at Josh Duggar's records had been released and threatening legal action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. DUGGAR: It's been an unprecedented attack on our family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: On the other side, critics of the Duggars who say the family just want to sweep the scandal under the rag. But what about the victims, five girls, all but one, his sister.
Tonight, I'm going to talk to a woman who was abused as a child. She says the Duggars are doing and deserves its survivors of sexual assault.
Plus, Spike Lee's new movie, surging up controversy in Chicago, actually it's the movie rumored title "Chiraq," combining Chicago and Iraq. And it has a lot of people up in arms. You're going to hear both sides of that this evening.
But I want to begin with the Duggar family going on the offensive over son, Josh's molestation scandal. Will be joining me now is legal analyst Mel Robbins and Sunny Hostin. And also a woman who knows all too well the terrible toll of sexual abuse.
Her name is Katie Beers, she was abused as a child and she says, what saved her was being kidnapped by a neighbor who kept her hidden away in a coffin sized box and abused her until, himself, until she was rescued after 17 days. Unbelievable.
She tells her heroine story in a book it's called "Buried Memories." And Katie Beers joins us via Skype this evening along with everyone else. Katie, Sunny and Mel, thank you so much.
So, tonight, Fox News released more of Megyn Kelly's interview with Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. Let's listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. DUGGAR: We tell our kids, you know, if somebody lies to you, you're not going to trust them anymore. What if somebody lies to you and then come back and they ask for forgiveness and they're very humble about it that starts rebuilding a trust.
And that's what happened with Josh. Josh did some very wrong things, but then he came back and asks for forgiveness and started rebuilding that trust.
Our family is humbled by all this and you see a family that instead of losing our faith, we actually were drawn so close together to God and to each other.
MEGYN KELLY, THE KELLY FILE HOST: All of you?
J. DUGGAR: All of us.
MICHELLE DUGGAR, JOSH MOTHER: Yes. The girls too, with respect to Josh?
J. DUGGAR: Yes. The girls have totally forgiven Josh. And have gone on and Josh has now a wonderful husband, father.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Katie, you're a survivor, what's your reaction to what they're saying?
KATIE BEERS, "BURIED MEMORIES, KATIE BEERS STORY" AUTHOR: There are a lot of reactions that I have. My first reaction is the victims were outed and that's not fair to them. If they weren't ready to come forward, they should have never been outed. Their ages, the age that Josh was when he allegedly abused these girls. It's just -- it's saddening for all parties involved right now.
LEMON: Now, I want to play another piece of the interview just released tonight. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. DUGGAR: Sometimes there's young people that make mistake and get involved in alcohol and drugs and different things in their youth and then they get treatment, they get therapy and they go on and they become very great people.
And so, I think that's the reason normally in society that we seal juvenile records. Now, in our case, this stuff was exposed because young people made stupid mistakes and society as a whole has not wanted to hold juveniles, what they've done out for the public viewing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Sonny, it seems that they're saying that Josh is the one who was -- is being persecuted here.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean that's pretty fascinating to me.
LEMON: I mean, I'm sorry, Sunny, no. You can go ahead.
HOSTIN: I mean, that's pretty fascinating to me. You know, certainly when juvenile records are sealed, they're sealed for a reason and I'm not suggesting that's appropriate. But I think we're really losing focus here...
LEMON: Right.
HOSTIN: ... on what the real issue is it. The real issue is that young girls were victimized in their own home, they were not protected by their parents. And quite frankly, what I saw was the grooming process. I saw him sort of start off with certain children.
LEMON: One of the guests said that night, the survivor.
HOSTIN: Well, absolutely. He started while they were sleeping then he move to while they were awake, he moved from over the clothing, to underneath the clothing. That is sort of the classic predator grooming.
And so, to sort of suggest at this point that the victims are OK, I think is pretty ingenious. And I also think that we have to think about the fact that he has young children in his home...
[22:05:03] LEMON: Yes.
HOSTIN: ... right now and that really should be the focus not whether or not these juvenile records should have been exposed.
LEMON: So, Mel, here is what Jim Bob has to say about how the authorities dealt with them at the time. Again, this is new. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. DUGGAR: The authorities said all of this would be confidential, everything that a child says is confidential.
KELLY: And did you provide these reassurances to your daughters?
J. DUGGAR: Yes. Well, you can call them. Whatever you tell this will all be confidential. They used to share everything. And so they did it. They shared -- how -- what Josh had done, how it was handled, that nothing had happened since. And so, then they -- the process is typically they open up a family need of services to kind of supervise the family for a period of time and then you go before the judge, the judge reviews it all.
And at the end of all that, as a matter of fact, the people in the system said, you know what, this was a bad situation back in '02, '03, when Josh was just turned 14 and going on 15. But you guys handled this better than most families.
KELLY: Department of...
J. DUGGAR: That's what they said.
KELLY: ... Human Services that said that to you?
J. DUGGAR: You know, you see a lot of people in the system they said, you know, we've hardly ever seen a parent go and have their son go and turn himself into the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You've dealt with the system, you're an attorney. What do you think of what Jim Bob is saying?
MEL ROBBINS: CNN COMMENTATOR & ANALYST: Well, you know, out of the entire 32-minute interview, that's probably the only thing I agree with. And it's only one section of it, Don. I think very few families that discover that discover that this is happening inside their families actually do go to the police.
I think that it's a reaction by most parents when they discover that they've got a member of their family doing this to hide it, to try to deal with it internally, so I don't doubt that he was told that. Did they handle it correctly? Hell, freaking no.
HOSTIN: Of course they did, that's all I'm hearing.
ROBBINS: I totally agree with...
HOSTIN: Yes, Mel.
ROBBINS: I agree with what Sunny said, 100 percent. Look, I was molested by an older kid when I was in fourth grade, Don, I pretended to be asleep when it happened. And so, everything that this family is saying is crazy. And what Sunny is talking about is absolutely right.
This wasn't once, this wasn't twice, this was three times and it got more and more and more serious. And so, I mean, there's just so much to talk about in this particular case, Don. And while I think that a lot of families don't go to the police, I certainly don't think the Duggars did anything correct in this instance at all.
HOSTIN: And I just want to say that the notion that they handled this better than most families is just ridiculous. We now know that Josh Duggar went to them, not once, not twice, but three times. After the first time had they acted? Had they removed him from the home, had they called the police, had they given him counseling? At that point, they would have protected, which is required under the law, the other children in their family.
We may not be talking about five victims; we may only be talking about one victim. And so any suggestion that they handle this appropriately is really wrong. I think we do need to talk about how you appropriately handle child sex abuse allegations and child sex crimes. Because to be sure, these were crimes that were committed.
LEMON: Yes. And that's why I want to discuss that. But I want Katie, I want you to pay particular attention to this as a survivor.
HOSTIN: OK.
LEMON: We also heard a new piece of the interview with the sisters tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: You are going on the record as being two of Josh's victims. Does it feel strange to use that word?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I don't think we didn't choose to come out and tell our story. This wouldn't have been our first choice, but now that this story has been brought about, we really feel like as we've been seeing these headlines, as we've been seeing things that people are saying about our family, we feel like as the victims, we have to come out and speak, this is something like, we chose to do.
Nobody asked us to do this. Jess and I were talking we're like, oh, my goodness, the most of the stuff out there is lies, it's not true. And so, for truth sake, we want to come out and set the record straight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Katie, you know, it's a whole different story of whether or not information should have been released and we can get into that. But the parents put those young ladies on television, the parents named them. It wasn't the media who did it. They didn't have to go on television. Josh isn't on television right now. Katie.
BEERS: Exactly. Again, I just think it's sad, I think it's horrific. It's a crime against the victims to oust them before they're ready and that's what happened to the two Duggar girls that came forward and started to tell their side of the story.
[22:09:58] Were they ready to come out publicly? Did they ever want to come out publicly? We're never going to know because everybody basically made them, their parents, the media, whoever had them come on TV and do the interview, basically forced their hand and it's not fair, it really isn't.
LEMON: Yes. I want you guys to stand by because we're going to talk about that now.
I want to bring in Arkansas State Senator, Bart Hester. He believes that police chief who released the Josh Duggar report should be fired. But Senator, I want to get your reaction to this newly released interview material. I'm sure you've been hearing it from parents and from the daughters. What do you think of it?
BART HESTER, ARKANSAS STATE SENATOR: I think it's doing a really good job for allowing them to tell their side of the story. You know, the media and everybody's have been running rampant with accusations that were simply not true and not even close to factual. And I think they've been doing a really good job of saying their story and let the American people decide for themselves.
LEMON: Why do you think the police chief be fired who releases this information?
HESTER: Well, it's very simple. The day before the police chief released this information, no one knew these girls were victims. An hour after, she chooses to release this information. They're on the cover of every tabloid, every news station in the world.
They didn't choose to be victims and they didn't choose to have their information released. We are charged as a government and as a police to protect the victims, not exploit them and that's what happened here.
LEMON: And you think the girls were exploited in particular. And I can understand that this brings them back and this may re-victimize them. But I don't think that people knew from that report exactly who the victims were. No one named the girls in the police report.
HESTER: Well, you can't directly or indirectly name victims. It named four daughters of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar living at a particular address. At the time, there were five daughters, and one was a very small infant. Anyone with half a minute to look on the internet could identify the girls and there is no dispute that this report identified those daughters.
LEMON: What about the larger issue here senator, are you at all concerned that there was a young man molesting his sisters and at least one other person in the proper authorities were kept in the dark, at least for a while?
HESTER: Well, I think that no one can decide what you would do if you're not in the situation as the Duggars were. They dealt with it in home and then he marched his son into the front doors of the state police and had his son made with the state police officer and tell everything that he done. I think that took a lot of courage. And I think they handled it as well as any family could.
LEMON: Attorneys, do you want to weigh in on this?
HOSTIN: You know that -- you know senator that's really nonsense.
ROBBINS: Ridiculous.
HOSTIN: That the suggestion somehow that they handled this appropriately. I think that you should be ashamed of yourself. You're being intellectually dishonest. You're hiding behind some talking points here and the bottom line is, you have parents that were told, not once, not twice, but three times, senator, that their children were being abused.
They did not remove him from their home, they did not seek counseling initially, they did not report it to the police until the statute of limitations had already run. And so, the suggestion somehow that this family handled a child abuse allegation in their home is -- you know I'm very disappointed in your response.
LEMON: Let him respond. Senator, go ahead.
HESTER: Well, again, I'll stand behind the fact that the Duggars took their son to the police station. They immediately reprimanded him in the home and they immediately took actions to protect their children.
And I'll tell you this, what we should be talking about right now is these four young ladies who were exploited for profit, tabloid and by the Springdale police.
HOSTIN: No.
HESTER: I think it's unconscionable and that's what we should be talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: Maybe we should be talking about the fact that Josh Duggar should...
HESTER: So, the very fact that you're talking about a minor.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let Mel get it. Let Mel.
ROBBINS: Because, you know, here's the thing. We keep talking about Josh. The parents also had a responsibility to those other children in the house. And if this had been a stranger, you think they wouldn't have gone to the police, not once, but the second time. What about the third time?
They have an obligation they could go to jail by having a known child molester living in their house exposed to those victims over and over and over again.
LEMON: OK.
ROBBINS: But one thing that the public needs to know is if you find out that this is happening, you don't send your kids to church camp, you send them to counseling. You get the authorities above and you get it done immediately.
LEMON: I do have to say though, it is very difficult. I don't how many parents would turn their own child in, and I think as a parent, you have, you must understand that. You can weigh back and forth, debate back and forth about what they should or should not have done but it's a tough position to be in when the victim and the perpetrator are both in the same family. What do you think should happen that day?
HESTER: That's why I think, well, I think it's a real shame that we're even talking about details about this. This happened a minor did these acts to other minors. The fact that we're even talking about this is unconscionable.
(CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: That is not unconscionable.
HESTER: I want to talk about what In Touch...
LEMON: Let him finish.
HOSTIN: That is not unconscionable senator.
LEMON: Let him fish. Let him finish Sunny.
[22:14:58] HOSTIN: That's the problem with sex abuse. People hide it. It's behind closed doors. People don't want to talk about it and our children in this country are being abused over and over and over again. We should be able to protect the most vulnerable among us.
HESTER: I didn't get your name but your point is, I didn't get your name but your point is, a young lady should go tell the police and then her information should be told everywhere. I think the message is to these young girls if you come to the police, we're going to tell the media about you. I think that's the wrong message and that tells the young ladies not to come forward. I think it's wrong.
HOSTIN: The message should be that your parents can protect you when you're being sexually abused by your brother in your own home. That should be the message.
HESTER: I think you heard two adult young ladies, or you will tomorrow night, say that their parents did protect them.
LEMON: They said that tonight that they believe that. We have a lot on this. Senator, I want to thank you for coming on and we'll continue on with this.
When we come right back, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar had a lot to say about the molestation scandal. And even two of their daughters, as you saw they're speaking out, you'll hear more from them. Is it time for Josh Duggar though, to man up and answer some questions.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar finally confirmed last night that their son, Josh, molested five girls more than a decade ago. Four of them his own sisters. Is this happen more often than we think among siblings? So, joining me now to discuss that is Kate Shellnutt, associate editor
of Christianity Today, and also psychologist and writer Nell Gibbon Daly, and Charles Blow, New York Times Op-Ed columnist and CNN political commentator, and Sunny Hostin is back with us.
So, Kate, Fox has released more of their interview with the Duggars. I want to play it for you and then we'll talk about it.
[22:20:05] KATE SHELLNUTT, CHRISTIANITY TODAY ASSOCIATE EDITOR: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. DUGGAR: I just remember, I said to Josh, I said, when he came back, he was broken, he was so humble and he was repenting over and over. He asked for forgiveness, you know that, you know, that he had hurt. And I said to him, Josh, God's word is true.
He said that if you cover your sin, you won't prosper. But who so confesses and forsakes it, shall have mercy. We said you've had mercy, God's forgiven you, and these people have forgiven you. And I said, and now, we were waiting to hear, you know, were they going to come, serve a warrant, come take him away, we didn't know what they were going to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, some feel, Kate, that the Duggars were hiding behind their religion to justify their response? What do you think?
SHELLNUTT: Well, I'm not surprised that the Duggars are emphasizing that Josh is forgiven. As people who believe in a God of grace, it makes sense that that's going to be part of their response. What's disappointing is that's such an emphasis of their response is that we're hearing so much about how Josh has forgiven and reformed and a lot less about kind of the other things that God might have us do in these situations.
He's not just a God who forgives people for people terrible things but also one whose heart breaks for thing that happen and the people who they happen to. So, the fact that their kind of anthem has been, well, he's reformed, he's changed and he has this great character now.
Instead of saying, we have this platform now and we're going to talk about all the people who are affected, all the victims out there who God grieves for because they've been exposed to this kind of thing within their own families.
I just see kind of a disconnects between a God of mercy and a God of justice for victims and I think that kind of goes hand in hand for a Christian God.
LEMON: Now, is it helpful to the victims that this whole focus on forgiveness, this is hopeful or to the victims? Friend this is for Nell.
SHELLNUTT: Yes. NELL GIBBON DALY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST & WRITER: I mean, you're asking the question, is forgiveness helpful to these victims?
LEMON: Yes. Because they keep saying that Josh has forgiven. Josh has forgiven. You don't hear much in their about -- well, the victims -- hear about Josh, God has forgiven Josh.
DALY: Yes, God has forgiven Josh. I mean, I think we're going to hear tomorrow night on the interview whether or not these girls have forgiven their brother. In the sense I guess from the clips that they've shown is that the girls has.
The thing is that, in this family, this is the fabric of how they deal with things through their Christianity, right? And so, it would make sense that they're finding peace within their spiritual faith.
LEMON: That's exactly what they said tonight. Let's listen in a newly release part of that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Your daughters wrote a book and they talk in there about the importance of forgiveness, even if bitterness remains. Does any bitterness remain or do you feel like you've gotten to the point of true forgiveness in your family?
J. DUGGAR: Yes. Our family has definitely gotten to the point that there's no bitterness. That therefore, forgiveness is not something you feel like doing, it's a choice. When people wronged us, you say, God, I choose to forgive this person. And sometimes people come back and ask for forgiveness, sometimes people don't. But it's important, just like Jesus was hanging on a cross, He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Kate. So, he talked about that and he also talked about the over the clothes, under the clothes, all of that. Are they in denial in some sense?
BEERS: About what happened?
LEMON: Yes, because they keep saying forgiveness and they talk another, but it's just to me, it seems like a real disconnect that if something happened and this is just me in a hypothetical as a survivor, the first thing I would do is oh, my gosh, my girls, what happened to my girls, how are you honey, are you OK? And then I would deal with the part about the other kid that I'm dealing with.
The one that is the actual perpetrator. My first focus would be to talk about the victims. That wasn't the first focus in this interview, they talked about Josh first, and mostly.
DALY: Yes. Well, I think that's the problem with what hearing to this interview is that we actually don't know. It seems to me that we actually don't know what transpired inside the family because it was so hush-hush. And because it doesn't seem like the interview actually brought forth how they handled it exactly when it happened with the girls.
LEMON: I only know from the interview, and from the interview it seems like the focus is on Josh and not the girls.
DALY: They haven't given...
HOSTIN: And if I can weigh in here also what we're hearing a lot of is minimizing. We're hearing with this didn't really affect them because it happened while they're sleeping. I can't begin to tell you when I was prosecuting child sex crimes, how many victims told me, I pretended to be asleep while this was happening.
[22:24:57] LEMON: Sunny, Nell said the same thing.
HOSTIN: No question about it. The other thing is, you know, well, it only happened over their clothes and then, it happened underneath the clothes, but just for a quick second, that is classic grooming on behalf of the perpetrator, but also classic minimizing on behalf of the parents and the family members of the perpetrators.
LEMON: And Charles, Sunny has said, you said that he has no legal exposure, right. That Josh -- OK.
(CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: He doesn't have any criminal exposure.
LEMON: So, then he said, oh, men, why isn't there speaking?
CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: I don't know why he's not out there speaking. But I do agree with Sunny, you know, that they're minimizing to a certain degree. But I also agree what you said earlier in the show, which is, how many parents are going to turn their kid into the cops and I think that's a very real thing.
LEMON: Absolutely not condoning but...
BLOW: Condoning of what they're doing it is in anyway minimizing of what has happened to the girls in that home. But I think that what we have to do as a society is to decide how much we want to focus on punishment and how much we want to focus on the victims and their treatment.
And if we change that lane, I mean, that stretches across society. We are punishment society. We want to punish people rather than to deal with treatment if that drugs, whatever the problem is. In these particular cases, if there is a person, you know, there are two people at home, one is the victim and one is the offender, right? And the parent now has been put in the position of being a reporter.
Are you going to report? I think we have to have a conversation about how can we make space and not be quite as punitive as we are now particularly for children because right now, you can -- you now, if you're 14 or older, you can be added to the sexual offenders list forever, for your entire life at 14 years old.
And all -- what I'm saying all about that is if I'm just focusing just on the victims, I'll look at that and say and what a lot of therapists say is, number one, it's not necessarily deterrent for a 14-year-old, because they're not even aware of the law, right? It's not a deterrent. Number two, the parent may be less likely to get, seek help for the justice...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: For the definitive.
BLOW: Right.
LEMON: Yes.
BLOW: Right. The real therapist they are mandatory reporters.
LEMON: OK.
HOSTIN: That's true.
BLOW: So, I'm just trying to -- so, you have safe haven laws, if a woman has a baby, we want to protect that baby. We just say, bring it somewhere, we'll deal with it. I think we just need to figure out some way of crawling out the space where we can deal the victims rather than the punishment side
I want to keep the focus on the girls.
LEMON: Hold that thought everyone. When we come back, we'll continue on. Don't go anywhere.
[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: Back now with more on the Duggar scandal and new statements tonight from Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. Back with me now is Kate Shellnutt, Nell Gibbon Daly, Charles Blow, and Sunny Hostin.
And now we spoke about the statute of limitations just the other day on the show and we spoke that to you about that last night. I want you to listen to Jim Bob and what he said tonight about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: They say, we didn't realize but because that report was made back three years before, they said the statute of limitations has run out because it was the police responsibility to take action on that, on the confession. And because they didn't do that, they said, you know what everything was taken care of, this is over. And the same as you the parents, have gotten counseling. You've done everything that needs to be done for your family.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Does Josh needs to be under scrutiny here? No?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
NELL GIBBON DALY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST & WRITER: I mean, why wasn't something done when they -- it first came out and then all of a sudden the statute of limitations are out in the Duggar they're saying, oh.
HOSTIN: I think you're right. Actually I have some room then. I thought that perhaps they didn't report it until this statute of limitations had run.
If they truly reported it to an officer friend of theirs and that officer just gave him a stern talking and did nothing, that officer bears a tremendous amount of responsibility and blame because you are mandatory reporter.
DALY: Yes.
LEMON: Yes.
HOSTIN: And that officer should have done more with this. And I think would have protected more children.
LEMON: Before I get to Kate, I want to get back to Charles. Because, Charles, I think you make a very good point. And I know, again, I keep -- we have to -- I want to make a caveat by saying, no one is condoning anything here, but when it's in the family, if you think that your kid is going to get locked up or your kid is be on sex offender registry will have you I think you're right. There needs to be some space...
CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Some space.
LEMON: ... for reporting.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: Well, I'm just saying this is that, you know, I'm a parent too. I would actually not -- I mean, I think I'm well -- I'm a smart guy. I don't think I would actually know what to do. I would start to investigate what do I do, right?
HOSTIN: Sure. Yes.
BLOW: And I think that, you know, wonder that, you know, you may not agree -- the minimizing is horrible in what they -- and some of the language they use is horrible but this idea of them actually starting to figure out what to do, that's actually a thumbs up for that family. And also one thing I want to...
DALY: I wouldn't go that far.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOW: Wait. I'm not. I'm sorry. I'm not. DALY: We wouldn't go that far.
BLOW: Right. Right.
HOSTIN: Because they allowed other children to be abused.
BLOW: What I'm saying is that was a positive -- my understanding of this entire issue is that a lot of people don't do that at all. They don't make that -- and number two, and number one.
The second part I want to make sure that we at least bring up that we don't talk about enough is that the kid is constantly coming to the parents. This is a kid crying out for help and we should be so lucky to have more offenders...
HOSTIN: And did they have of the servant.
BLOW: Yes they did. But they..
LEMON: Stand by because they talk about Josh and the legal system. Let's listen, this is new tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, THE KELLY FILE HOST: Did Josh go in and speak with the authorities at that time?
J. DUGGAR: Josh actually went to court with us and the judge talked to him sternly about what he had done and, I mean, burned in his mind never to go down that road again.
KELLY: Was there a fear then, I mean, I'm...
J. DUGGAR: Yes.
KELLY: ... I'm asking that with judge him though, about whatever spoken.
J. DUGGAR: Yes. Because this is three years later.
KELLY: There was fear on his part that somebody might still charge him.
[22:35:02] J. DUGGAR: Yes. At that time we didn't know if we've been or not. We didn't know statute of limitations had run out but he had already confess everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, they're saying come to trials, they didn't know.
DALY: Yes. They didn't know. And still after watching this interview, I'm still unclear as to, when he first came to them and said, look, mom and dad, I think I've done something bad here. Or from the way I understand it, they saw him walking out and one of the parents approach him and said, what's just happened in there? And he confessed to this. What exactly was the response at that time because...
(CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: There was no response as my understanding and that was is what the problem is for me at least.
DALY: Exactly. And I think that what we need to encourage in this conversation...
BLOW: Right.
DALY: ... is the one good thing, which I hate thing if there's one good thing that comes out of this, it's the conversation to educate people what do you do when a child comes to you and says, hey, mom and dad, I think I just molested my little sister.
HOSTIN: You remove the offender from the home immediately and then it's therapy, therapy, therapy and possible reporting to the police.
LEMON: OK. Stand by. OK. Kate, last night they talked about why they did a high profile reality show knowing that they had this secret in their family. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. DUGGAR: We had nothing to hide. We had taken care of all of those years before. And when they asked us to do this reality TV show, all of this had been taken care of five years before and we had a clean bill of health from the state. We sent Josh to counter counselling, he had told the police.
KELLY: Did any of the girls or did Josh say, oh, hold on, mom and dad, hold on?
J. DUGGAR: We had no fear because we had and everything was taken care of. And that was suit -- that was actually a sealed juvenile record and so, and they had told us that all of this stuff was done as a juvenile, this was all stuff that was sealed and this is stuff that, under law, there's no way that this could ever be brought out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But they did have something to hide. It sounds like they believe that no one would ever find out, Kate, and no one would ever know. Do you agree?
KATE SHELLNUTT, CHRISTIANITY TODAY ASSOCIATE EDITOR: And it seems like it's more kind of an emphasis of once something has been completed, once something has been forgiven, we are free from that. A lot of times Christians do use the language of freedom and are not kind of burdened by things that have happened in the past.
But we know from psychologically that things like abuse linger for a long time and it takes a while for right restoration to happen. But I believe part of their Christian belief maybe part of their faith was we've moved on, we've reconciled from this and, we've made a forgiveness effort and now we get to kind of live our lives that way.
LEMON: OK.
SHELLNUTT: And, yes.
LEMON: I think now you had an important point about what a therapist is compelled to do with someone...
(CROSSTALK)
DALY: Yes. So, the interesting thing is that, if they had right away removed him from the home and said, OK, he needs to see a therapist. A therapist is a mandated reported across America.
BLOW: Exactly.
DALY: Now the interesting thing about that is for parents it absolves you anyway. The system is there to protect the entire family, right? The victims, the perpetrator and the parents. So, as then also and you're discharging the child to the therapist, it's up to the therapist to do what they need to do according to the law and that might unburden a parent.
Of course and that's why, as a former child abuse prosecutor I say the advice is always remove the offender from the home and then therapy. Because the therapist licensed, state therapist, certainly have that mandatory requirement.
My next question is, what kind of therapist that they take Josh Duggar to that did not report this to the authorities?
HOSTIN: Well, I think the point is they didn't.
LEMON: That's the last word. That has to be the last word.
HOSTIN: Yes.
LEMON: Thank you very -- and we're going to continue this conversation because it is indeed important. And there are a lot of people here who are survivors sitting at this table. And Kate as well, and people we had on last night as well. Thank you. All of you, I appreciate it.
When we come right back, Spike Lee's new movie filming just began in Chicago. But some people are already outrageous. Spike Lee giving the windy city a bad name are telling the story that needs to be told.
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: People in Chicago taking sides over director Spike Lee's new movie which looks at the city's deadly gun violence, but what has people up in arms is the film working title, it's "Chiraq." Here's CNN's Ryan Young with more.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Buzz is usually a good thing when it comes to a new movie. Spike Lee's new film "Chiraq" starring Samuel Jackson, Jeremy Piven, and Nick Keenan has plenty. But it's the title a combo of Chicago and Iraq that's created a fire storm through the city's neighborhood. Chicago's mayor making his feelings clear to the filmmaker himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAHM EMANUEL, CHICAGO MAYOR: I was clear that I was not happy about the title. I told him also that there are very good people that live in Inglewood who are raising their family and do a -- there are a lot of positive things that are happening in Inglewood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: And you can already see the big signs of a Hollywood production right here in Chicago. Filming started this week, but there's already people in the windy city that calling for a Hollywood edit. They want the name of this change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BURNS, CHICAGO ALDERMAN: The name itself is deeply troubling to people who live in these communities. They don't view their neighborhood as "Chiraq," they view it Auburn version, or Inglewood or High Parker Kingwood and they are very proud of where they live.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: City alderman Will Burns feels the movie's title, not yet confirmed, by the way, compared Chicago streets to a war zone and gives gang members credit for coming up for coming up with a city nickname.
Burns believes the movie's title will have such a negative impact, he wants tax credits normally given to a film production, pulled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BURNS: If you want to stop the violence you have to create living wage jobs. We have to create hope in these communities, and that means you have to get folks to invest in those communities. And so, if the brand for those communities is "Chiraq," would you want to risk your capital, would you want to take out debt to build something in a neighborhood called "Chiraq," I don't know.
YOUNG: Beyond the fight downtown there's no denial Chicago faces an uphill battle. The murder rate on a startling pace, 161 people killed so far this year. 1 reason why Spike Lee and star John Cusack, a Chicago Native, believed this movie is important.
[22:45:07] For now Spike Lee isn't taking any questions about the film, but they give us statement last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPIKE LEE, WRITER & DIRECTOR: A lot of people have opinions about the so-called title of the film. Again, you don't know-nothing about the film.
BURNS: And it's vitally important that we try to protect the next generation of kids, give them hope, give them the opportunities so that they can contribute to society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: A hallmark of all Spike Lee's films. In this case, an entire city is waiting to see if the title gets in the way of that message. Ryan Young, CNN Chicago.
LEMON: Very interesting. Thank you, Ryan. So, going head to head tonight on this is on Spike Lee's new movie. Illinois State Senator Jacqueline Collins and Chicago Alderman, William Burns. I appreciate both of you joining us this evening.
So, let's have a frank and honest discussion here. I lived in Chicago for a while, and so the city has place in my heart. It hurts me to see what's going on there. Senator Collins, you support this movie, why do you support it?
JACQUELINE COLLINS, ILLINOIS STATE SENATE: Basically I support it and I think that "Chiraq" is an accurate and appropriate title, given the fact that it's an honest, I think acknowledgement of the fear, pain, and the lack of investment in a certain community that individuals have to confront on a daily basis.
There's a lot of hand ringing and hyperbole concerning the title, but I think given the numbers and it should not be about the semantics, but it should be about the statistics.
And if you look at the statistics just in the months of May alone, we had 300 shootings. And from January 1st to May 30th, we saw 853 shootings and of that count, that was 161 deaths in 151 days. So, I think the title is appropriate.
LEMON: Unbelievable. So, Alderman Burns, I mean, the numbers speak for themselves. That's the reality of it. Why are you so upset by this?
BURNS: Well, look, there are certainly areas in our neighborhoods where there's certainly an issue with gun violence and I've work with folks like (inaudible) and Michael Slagger to fight that by pushing persons with gun control laws, more investments and after school programs and summer job programs that we know help the young people from committing violence.
But here's the deal. We have to work on a long-term solution to these problems, which means we need to create living wage jobs and new investments in these communities, which means the folks like me and other aldermen are out trying to market, trying to get developers to come to our neighborhoods. We organize tours, we go to conventions trying...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Alderman, I understand that. I understand that.
BURNS: And the name of a movie is going to do that.
LEMON: Do you think that people don't know? You think that potential investors coming into that neighborhood won't know won't do their research and a name of a movie is going to make that much of a difference? Shouldn't you focus be on something -- on doing those things that you're talking about rather than, you know, being upset about the name of a movie?
BURNS: Well, Don, you lived in Chicago, so you know that there's a stigma attached to the south side of Chicago. You have a very different pattern of development on the north side of Chicago versus the south side and west side.
And if you talk to any of my colleagues in the Chicago City Council who represent those communities, we face an uphill climb in terms of bringing those kinds of developments to our community. And what the title "Chiraq" does. On top of the actual problem is create another head wind that makes it more difficult to...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You just said it's just piling on. Senator, do you understand -- are you concerned about anything that he's saying here? The points that he's making?
COLLINS: No, I don't. I don't give any credence and this is why I represent Inglewood, not only that, I lived in the area of over 40 years. So, there has not been any economic development or investment in the community for the last 40 years, so what is the appropriate reply to that?
I mean, what can we attribute that to Spike Lee only arrived in Chicago four weeks ago. And yet we have not seen the economic developed for the last 40 years in certain communities after the White Flight in the '60s and the '70s.
LEMON: Thank you very much. I appreciate...
BURNS: Well, I would argue that we're beginning to move the needle. As a matter of...
LEMON: Yes. We're out of time. We're out of time. So, thank you so much senator and thank you very much alderman. I appreciate you joining us. I hate to cut you off but we're out of time here.
Violent crimes on the rise, not only in Chicago but also in New York, Baltimore and other major cities. What are reasons, we're going to get into that next. Get some answers for you.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Very important discussion. pay attention. Violent crimes on the rise in American cities. But what is behind this increase? I'm joined now by Pastor Corey Brooks, the founder and CEO of projectshood.org, and Bernard Kirk, as Bernard Kerik as we call him here, the former New York police commissioner, now the CEO of Kerik Group.
Here are the numbers, let's read them off here. In some of America's biggest cities, crime, particular gun violence, is way up at Baltimore, Bernie, I should say, Baltimore, what is it like, 40 percent or something that the homicide -- 60 percent that the homicide rate is up. What's going on to increase to have this big of an entries?
BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, you have guys out in the streets is involved in -- especially New York City where we've seen a rise in shootings. And I said that on the show last year, where 8 to 10 months ago, you diminished up the frisk, you diminished the programs that were successful in reducing crime in the city you're going to see arise in shootings thus, you see a rise in homicide. You shoot people, people die and that's what is happening.
LEMON: 60 percent I say in Baltimore, 60 percent rise in gun violence. Pastor Brooks, you know, you're living and preaching in troubled neighborhood in Chicago and you heard with the folks from Chicago were just on what they were saying. What do you think is causing a rise in violence there?
PASTOR COREY BROOKS, PROJECTHOOD.ORG FOUNDER & CEO: We have poor educational system, we have a high unemployment rate, we have a terrible infrastructure and it's all being ran by the same people who are doing the same old thing, arguing over titles of movies, when we need to be focused on making our communities better places. And whenever you have that and it's infused with a lot of drugs you're going to have crime all the time. And that's why we're facing that. Not just in the city of Chicago but in other cities all across America.
[22:55:01] LEMON: Are you looking to be castigated by African-American and democrats because you say, that political leaders, particularly democrats are failing African-Americans who had been loyal to democrats. How?
BROOKS: Well, we're living in a place where we have been very, very loyal to the democratic party but the party has not been loyal to us. All you have to do is look across America and look at the years of things being the way that they are.
It's been the same old thing, the same all story all the time in the cities across America. You have bad schools, you have high crime, you have lots of drugs and it just so happens that these inner city areas are all ran by democrats. And I think that's a problem anytime we continue to put all of our eggs in one basket and we're not getting anything in return but bad neighborhoods.
LEMON: Let's get back to New York then. I want to talk about because that's an issue -- it's an issue really in big cities all across the country. But particularly here, when crime goes up, you know where the talk turns to and that is stop and frisk and you say that this is all happening because of stop and frisk?
KERIK: It's a part of it. And all you have to do is look at history. 1990 --
LEMON: Because this is only that they didn't stop, they just complied by what the judge said about it.
KERIK: 2400 homicides, 2400 in 1990. Last year, just over 300. 83 percent reduction in homicide in this city mostly in the minority communities where there was the most violent crimes. Now we've taken away stop and frisk, we've emboldened the guys in the street.
LEMON: So, you're saying that stop and frisk is not there. The commissioner said that they...
KERIK: Let's say it's been diminished substantially. And here's the thing. The cops are scared to death to go out here and do what they have to do.
LEMON: Yes.
KERIK: I don't want some bad guy living in my home did sues me in the city doesn't have...
LEMON: I just have to say watch the news every night and I live in the neighborhood and I see, I can feel it and see and I hear the gun shots now. That didn't happen six months ago.
KERIK: We're going back to the '90s and '80s.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you. Pastor. We'll have you back. Please come back and we're going to talk about this. Thank you so much everyone. We're going to take a short break and "AC360" will be right after the break.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
