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CNN Tonight
More '70s Memories from a Groundbreaking TV Show; Search Continues for Two Escaped Cons; Duggar Family Scandal. Aired 10- 11:00p ET
Aired June 08, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: More '70s memories to come tonight from a groundbreaking TV show. But we begin with breaking news, manhunt.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Hundreds of police officers searching right now for two escaped cons in a case that sounds like something out of Shawshank Redemption. The two convicted killers cut through the walls of their cells then climbed through sewer pipes to freedom.
But there is no Hollywood ending to this story. Richard Matt and David Sweat are really vicious killers and police say they could be anywhere right now. A female employee at the prison being questioned. A state official says, she worked with the two men tailoring clothing at the prison and knows them very well.
But in spite of a $100,000 reward, the murderers are still on the loose tonight. I want to get right to it now with CNN's Jason Carroll at the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York right now. So, Jason, two big questions tonight, where are they now and how did they pull this off?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are a number of investigators who are asking themselves that question, how did they pull it off? Some are already speculating believing that they had help from the inside. The focus seems to be on this one woman who worked inside the prison with these two men, worked tailoring clothes with these two men, knew them very well.
Unclear at this point, Don, what if any type of help she may have provided. But, again, very clear to some who are investigating this that they had help on the inside. The question is, did they also have help on the outside?
Their escape from the upstate New York prison is the stuff of a Hollywood screenplay, both in side by side cells they used power tools to cut through steel walls, maneuver down a catwalk, crawl through two-foot wide underground pipes, finally, emerging out of a manhole to freedom.
To get a better sense of exactly where that manhole is located. All you have to do is look right up here on Barker Street. You can see there are a few prison guards standing right next to the manhole, which is located just about a block or so, away from the outer wall of the correctional facility.
How do avoid a bed check? Richard Matt and David Sweat stuffed their bunks with clothes as a decoy to fool guards, also leaving behind this note with the words "Have a nice day". New York's governor given a tour of the duo's daring escape route.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW CUOMO, NEW YORK GOVERNOR: They needed equipment that they wouldn't have had. And they had to have the assistance of someone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Jack Rugar agrees. Before he retired, he worked at the prison as a guard and inside the facility's machine shop for nearly four decades.
JACK RUGAR, RESIDENT: Got to have a lot of help there somewhere.
CARROLL: Is it you're thinking they may have had help from the inside or the outside or maybe a combination of both?
RUGAR: Well, a combination of both. I mean you don't cut through a steel wall without somebody hearing it.
CARROLL: One point is clear. Both are extremely dangerous. And U.S. Marshals have joined this massive manhunt that is underway. Investigators following up on hundreds of leads, Don, possibly tomorrow we'll have a clearer picture if any of those leads have led them anywhere. But at this point you heard what investigators were saying earlier; these men could be just about anywhere. Don.
LEMON: Jason, I've been watching you're reporting. And you've been reporting that these two men were housed in the honor block of the prison. Not very honorable what they did. Tell us about this unit.
CARROLL: No. And I think, Don, that might be surprising when you consider their violent, violent history. But apparently, when they were inside this prison facility, this maximum security facility, they had a good record when they were inside. And so, as such, you are moved into this honor sort of section of the prison where you have more privileges.
TV privileges, access to washer and dryer, more outside privileges in terms of being out in the yard, also privileges to more phone calls. Things of that nature. Might be surprising to some that these two men were housed in that particular section of the prison, but that's where they were until that daring escape. Don.
LEMON: Jason Carroll, I appreciate that. Now I want to bring in CNN's Deborah Feyerick, she's got more on the crimes that these two men committed and why authorities say they are so dangerous.
Good evening to you, Deb. These two men are about as dangerous really as it gets. What do you know about them, starting with Richard Matt, the older of the two men?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. They are indeed extremely dangerous. And that's why authorities are putting such a huge push on trying to capture them. Because they do believe that if given the opportunity there is every possibility that they could kill again.
Well, we know that Richard Matt, he killed two people one of them in the most brutal way possible. It was a former boss, an elderly man by the name of William Pickerson who owned a food delivery business. Matt was working for him when he went to his home, duct taped him and tortured him trying to extort money.
[22:04:56] Well, the older man said he didn't have any money. And that's when Matt and an accomplice threw him into a car, into the trunk of the car. They drove for some 27 hours again beating this man all the while trying to make him give them money, and then Richard Matt snapped his neck.
Moreover, not only did he kill him but then he dismembered the body. He cut off his head, his arms, as well as his legs and dumped the body in Niagara River. The torso was actually found and it linked Matt to this crime.
We also know that before he could stand charges on that he actually fled to Mexico. And there he killed another American, this time in a bar. He was sentenced to jail in Mexico. He served a number of years there before being extradited to the U.S. for homicide.
And before that, he was actually in another prison where he escaped. He was there on burglary charges and he managed to get out. So, this is a really, really bad guy. And it seems that somehow he manipulated this female employee and convinced her to help him.
The second man we're learning about, David Sweat, he and another accomplice robbed a gun store, and then the two fled. They were confronted by a sheriff's deputy. The sheriff's deputy's name is Kevin Tarsia, and he was actually shot to death by David Sweat and his accomplice.
They fired at least 12 bullets into this man who was simply trying to figure out what exactly they were doing parked in a parking lot there. Don.
LEMON: Yes. Very dangerous men. Thank you very much, Deborah Feyerick. I appreciate your reporting. I want to get to Steven Tarsia now. Knows all too well how brutal these escaped convicts are.
His brother Sheriff's Deputy Kevin Tarsia was murdered by David Sweat in 2002. And Steven joins me now. Thank you so much. How are you doing Steven?
STEVEN TARSIA, BROTHER MURDERED BY ESCAPED CON DAVID SWEAT IN 2002: Hi, how are you doing?
LEMON: Yes. I can't even imagine what you're feeling right now. Are you afraid for your family?
TARSIA: Yes, and no. I just hope that he doesn't come back here.
LEMON: Yes and no. Explain that.
TARSIA: Yes, I'm afraid they might come back and hurt somebody here. But I don't -- there is other way I don't think he is going to. So, I just hope he doesn't come back.
LEMON: Yes. He probably wants to get as far away from here as possible. That's what many people think, so that he doesn't have to go back to prison. But David Sweat was serving a life without parole for murdering your brother Kevin, a sheriff's deputy. Did you feel like you got justice for your brother?
TARSIA: We all wanted the death penalty but they decided not to do that. So, he got life in prison without any chance of ever parole. And they said that this he would have an awful life there. And now I'm hearing that he is getting all these privileges and stuff. And that really upsets me about that.
LEMON: How's your family dealing with that, knowing he is getting the privileges and then all of a sudden he escaped and authorities are saying -- people in the know are saying, hey, someone must have helped him on the inside and the outside?
TARSIA: They are very upset. I'm upset. We're just disgusted that some of it actually helped them do what they did to get out. I can't believe somebody would actually stoop that low to help.
LEMON: You know, sitting watching it, someone who is not involved in this, you know, we've been saying it's like a movie. A lot of people have been saying Shawshank Redemption, OK, all well and good. That's a movie. But this is real life for your family. Can you explain to the viewers what it was like when you and your family found out that something that seems impossible happened, that this escape happened?
TARSIA: Like I said, it's just very upsetting that it happened. And it's like living the nightmare all over again and dealing with what happened the first time, what he did to Kevin and everything. And it's awful. That we're going to probably have to deal with stuff again.
LEMON: Yes. Reliving it again. So, tell us about Kevin, if you will. He chose a career helping to protect his community. Tell us what kind of a man he was.
TARSIA: He was a good guy. He would always help somebody out if they needed help. We did a lot of hunting together. We would have dinners at my parents' house every Sunday. He was a good guy.
LEMON: Well, Steven, I'm sorry for the loss of your brother, and also sorry that you're having to -- you and your family are having to relive this again. And we appreciate you joining us here on CNN. OK? Thank you. And be safe.
TARSIA: Thank you very much. LEMON: We've got much more to come on our breaking news tonight. The
manhunt for two escaped killers. When we come right back, the man who knows a lot about tracking escapees, there he is. Dog, the bounty hunter is with us live.
[22:10:04] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back now with our breaking news. The manhunt in upstate New York and beyond for two murderers who escaped from prison. One man who knows a lot about tracking down people on the run, who are on the run from the law is Duane 'Dog' Chapman. He is the bounty hunter. He's on CMT's Dog and Beth on the hunt and he joins me now live.
Always good to have you as a guest and no one knows better than you do. So, Duane, tell me about this before we get to all of this, before we get into this, I want to know, because everyone is afraid. These guys could be anywhere. And as someone who tracks these guys down you never really know where they are.
DUANE 'DOG' CHAPMAN, A DOG BOUNTY HUNTER: No. Absolutely not. This is one of the greatest escapes, you know, in my fighting crime for 35 years that I've ever seen. This is -- if they did as much planning to get away as they did to get, you know out of the prison, they are gone.
Couple hints I have noticed the tattoo from Mexico, "I love Mexico" on one of the guys, and Canada is within 20 miles. But these are absolute killers. But they've had to leave clues. And it had to cost a lot of money. You know, whether you are in prison or not, money still is, you know, the god.
So, you had to have a lot of money to get all those other inmates to shut up while the drilling was going on. You had to be very, very intelligent, you know, to know where the plumbing was. You had to have a ride as soon as you got out of there.
[22:15:01] These guys -- I'm worried if the next thing they want is drugs or money. If they don't have a lot they are going to hide out a couple of days, let it die down and then , you know, they're going to start doing their thing, which is...
LEMON: OK.
CHAPMAN: ... killing, robbing and destroying.
LEMON: So, they can revert to -- because -- the common wisdom, Dog, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that they want to get as far away as possible from the United States. But you think that they could start doing criminal activity again, they could start killing people and doing more dangerous things?
CHAPMAN: Well, I think that the first thing they are going to need again is money, guns, and drugs.
LEMON: OK. CHAPMAN: You know, so, that's probably how it's going to go. So, they
are going to have to rob somewhere. And let's say they've got a lot of money, because like I said it took a lot of money for them to have in prison to be able to get this done. They, you know, they had to pay people again just to be quiet.
So, now they are on the streets. You know, I'm sure someone picked them up and took off. But the money -- I think they are going to start doing stuff right away. And, you know, well, they'll wear masks. They may split up. But this is incredible. It just goes to show you that there is an old saying in prison, whatever a man can build a man can break.
LEMON: Yes.
CHAPMAN: And this is known as Hotel California. This place has never -- I don't think has it ever had an escape. This is incredible how the guys got out of there.
LEMON: It hasn't. So, I'm going to ask you, there's road blocks, there's dogs, house to house searches that they are looking for them now. Do you believe -- I think you said you don't think that they are together and they are probably wearing masks. So, what is the dynamic like between two murderers on the run? Do you think they're still together? Will they turn, you know, turn on each other? Will they try to kill each other?
CHAPMAN: Well, I don't think they will kill each other. They may split up, but they're pretty good luck as a pair. They were cell mates, you know, one cell next to the other one. So, they're used to being around each other. They -- you know, it all depends. I mean, some split up, some don't.
To have kill each other and all that, I doubt it. Right now they are -- you know how you feel when you run a red light and you see a cop right there, you panic? Times 10 that's what they feel like right now. Because everywhere they go, you know, they are being sought.
So, I would think they would stay together for a while. But out of that manhole they had to cut the chains to get out. They probably had someone pick them up right about that area. Because they knew which manhole to go to. That wasn't the closest one. So, I think they were picked up right there in a vehicle and they're on, you know, they're on their journey.
LEMON: Here's what interesting, I heard some reporting saying if they had not left the manhole cover off that people -- it would have been added more of a mystery. They may not have even known how they escaped or where they escaped from but it's because they left it up and because they left those little notes that they know. They want people to know how they escaped?
CHAPMAN: Well, I -- absolutely. The -- usually the oldest guy, the oldest one on the team is the leader. And probably the young one was the jokester who left the note. But you know, this is genius. I mean, in the prison, you know, they are both scum bags, and, you know, it's incredible, but this is genius how they got out of there and how they did that. Where's the tools of that? How did they -- they haven't found none of that stuff. I doubt if there was guards that did it.
But sometimes when maintenance comes in, they don't inventory all that. And they -- you know, it took them years to plan this. Years and years, and then all of a sudden boom they called it right then. They knew for sure they had about seven hours before someone would try to wake them up.
LEMON: Oh, wow.
CHAPMAN: They knew that they had the time line down. They had the time line down. They had everything down perfectly. So, the escape out of, you know, the prison is just as important as the escape inside the prison. So, I think they had a plan from beginning to end.
LEMON: So, OK. Then if they escaped all that and everyone is thinking they're on the run, they don't know what they are going to do, they are going from house to house or whatever, they -- if this was planned out they are probably long gone, they have got all of their identification that they needed, whatever disguises they needed. They're probably long gone. No?
CHAPMAN: I would assume they're long gone. The only clue that I see is the one guy has "I Love Mexico" tattooed on his body. Now, where did he get that tattoo? In prison a tattoo means more than it does in the world. Did he get that in prison "I Love Mexico"? Guess what, that's where they're headed.
If they got that tattoo somewhere else, you know, Mexico, he got arrested there once, did a little time. Got to know the ins and outs of Mexico. Met the prisoners in Mexico prison, so, he probably has a hideaway, a hole in the wall in Mexico.
If the tattoo was gotten in prison, "I love Mexico," bam, that's the map to where they're at.
[22:19:57] LEMON: Yes.
CHAPMAN: If not, like I say Canada, you know, is not like it used to be. It's not like the quads remember when they took out over there. It's -- these guys are killers where boundaries are out just like the American cops every day searching.
Canada is not like it was 15 years ago to be a prisoner and just run over there. I would -- my guess, you know, just as a guess; I would try Mexico that way. All the phone calls they made, all the phone calls their cell mates made. Everybody they visited. Every single thing they did has to be looked at because they're not perfect. They made mistakes. They had to leave clues inside that prison to where they were going.
LEMON: Yes. The tattoo says "Mexico forever". If you -- you know, I know you're a bounty hunter, but do you think they will ever get these guys?
CHAPMAN: Oh, yes. They are going to get these guys. These kinds of guys here will hold court in the street. A cop has got to be very, very careful of these guys. Because these guys they have nothing to lose. You know, this should teach us, OK?
When you kill someone like that, premeditated, and you dismember their body -- come on. You know, you should be put to death. You kill a police officer like that, you should be put to death as you're pulling a trigger towards a cop you know what you are getting into, the death sentence.
For states to spare these guys' lives and, you know, let me explain it's terrible, but like good things, OK, because they're supposed to be beaten every day as this kid wanted, you know, bless him. But sometimes while in prison they rat on each other. And those rats get put somewhere -- you know, so guys get ready to be killed, so he goes and runs and tells a guard. Then he gets transferred to a nice area of the farm.
So, it's not because, you know, the prison people felt sorry for him. Prison is a whole other world. It should show us that these states, when you do that kind of horrendous crime like that, you kill someone like that, you should be put to death.
All the taxpayer money wasted more lives are going to be wasted because of this now. Because these guys are like wounded lions on the run.
LEMON: Wow.
CHAPMAN: These guys are -- this is bad, brother, this is not good.
LEMON: The family member I just spoke to a moment ago said they wanted the death penalty as well and they didn't get it. Thank you, Dog. I appreciate it.
CHAPMAN: Thank you, sir.
LEMON: Say hi to Beth, will you.
CHAPMAN: Thank you.
LEMON: OK.
CHAPMAN: I will.
LEMON: All right. Up next, what's it like on the inside? I'm going to talk to a former inmate who spent a decade behind bars.
Plus, the Duggar family scandal, Jim Bob and Michelle say their son, Josh, is a changed person. But how likely is that? But they call, his bad choices are all behind him.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Our breaking news tonight. A dragnet in Northern New York State for two inmates convicted -- two convicted murders I should say, who broke out of prison this weekend.
Joining us by Chris Swecker, he's a former assistant director of the FBI who led the team that captured Eric Rudolph, the man who bombed the Atlanta Olympics in 1996, also Larry Levine, he's a former federal inmate who spent 10 years in prison, he is the director and the founder of Wall Street Prison Consultants. And Casey Jordan is with us as well, Casey is a criminologist.
Good to have all of you on this evening. This is really unbelievable.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes.
LEMON: I'm sure you guys heard the interview I did with Dog, the bounty hunter, earlier saying he has never seen anything like it.
Chris, to you first, you led that team that we talked about that captured Eric Rudolph, the Olympic bomber. Do you think that these murderers are still in the area? Did they split up?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: I doubt very seriously, Don, if they are in the area. I agree with Dog that somebody probably picked them up pretty quickly from that manhole location. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to have struck out on foot once they went to the lengths that they did to get out of there and then go hide in the woods. I think they had somebody there. Probably someone they cultivated who is possibly related to someone inside the prison.
LEMON: So, the best person who picked them up is someone you think is related to not them but someone else inside the prison?
SWECKER: Well, in this instance, it's not hard to compromise prison employees. And there has been a suggestion that one insider possibly helped them out. Well, if that's the case, then that person probably lined up some outside people to help out with this.
And of course they have their own network. Their cell phone calls will tell you what their social network looks like, who visited them, where they have been in the past. This will be an entire dissection of everything they have done over the last 30 years.
LEMON: OK. To you Larry, Larry you're an expert on prison security guards. It's prison security guards didn't know that they were missing for possibly up to seven hours. How does that happen?
LARRY LEVINE, FORMER FEDERAL INMATE: Well, at night they put -- they put the clothes on their bunks, and they created like a mannequin in the bed and count time comes around about 7 o'clock in the morning. So, it's a stand-up count and nobody realized until that time that they weren't there.
And I talked to some of my associates who have been in Clinton, who have been in the honor dorm. Well, the honor unit where they were at. And apparently the staff, when they come by in the middle of the night, they're lackadaisical. They're not checking to see if someone is there. They are maybe walking by shining a flashlight in but they're not checking.
And when count time comes around I'm told a lot of the inmates don't even stand. So, it looks like the staff has been there possibly for a long time. They call that homesteading. The staff has become complacent in their jobs. They should have realized something was out of place.
LEMON: Yes. That's because no one has ever escaped before. And because are these the prisoners who are on best behavior so far so they may have a little bit -- they may be a little bit more lax with them.
[22:29:51] LEVINE: Well, in an honoree unit you have more privileges than normal inmates. But a point was made before by the FBI director as far as monitoring their calls. Well, if these guys had access to power tools and they were doing this preparing, planning for their escape for this long, they had cell phones. They were using secure communications.
So, any real information they are going to get my monitoring their calls is all a window dressing. I mean, if I were these guys and I'm out on the run right now I would be calling out -- I would be calling in information or having people give sighting information on me thousands of miles away just to lead the FBI or the Marshals off my tracks, they're not stupid.
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: Do you think that -- are they disguised? Did they plan their disguise?
LEVINE: I think they planned it for a long time like the director said. I mean, they know what they are doing. Will they be caught? Probably. When they get caught I don't think they are going to be taken into custody. They are going to hold court right there on the highway. And the cops are going to render a verdict with an M-16. Show is over.
LEMON: That's what Dog said, that they are going to hold court right where they find them. A female prisoner, Casey, an employee I should say who worked with them...
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Right.
LEMON: ... in the tailoring shop is being interrogated about the escape. How often do women get manipulated by men like these?
JORDAN: You know, I don't want to admit that it happens but I know women who have met men in prisons working there and fallen in love and quit their jobs and married them when they got out. So, we call this very often hybristophilia. It is the psychological phenomenon where women are attracted to bad boys.
And sometimes the worse, the more deeply attraction. And a lot of these women think that they are the only one who understands him, that he's reformed and that they can help him or rescue him, they get him and nobody else does. And so, I am laying odds that this female employee who worked with them tailoring clothes or something in some prison industry is going to be the link because they could not have done this on their own. But I'm sure prison officials are listening to all the phone calls. Hopefully they were all recorded.
And I'm very interested to know if family members were visiting them regularly. You do need -- when you have someone come and visit you in a prison -- I've interviewed hundreds of prisoners in prisons - they talk to their wives, their girlfriends, their families, their mothers and tell them all kinds of things which are not monitored. Those people can get to the outside, use the internet make plans.
LEMON: Yes.
JORDAN: So, they really need to look at the visitor's list as well, but I do think the female employee is going to be the missing link.
LEMON: Chris, I've heard Dog said and I think, you know, you guys have said this as well that they had helped. But how many people, I mean, are we talking hundred dozens, hundreds, how many people who helped them out both inside and outside of the prison?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Well, it's likely a very small group. These are pretty savvy people. They're not going to let a lot of people inside or outside into their plans. It only takes one or two. And I doubt very seriously if this is a big broad network. I would suggest it's one, two, or three people.
LEMON: Yes. Well, Richard Matt has escaped before. I mean, it was surprising to me that he was in this honor part of the prison. So, if he had escaped before, what lessons Chris, that he learned from that?
SWECKER: Well, I mean, he escaped from a prison that wasn't quite as secure as this maximum security. But I think what he learned was you can compromise people in prison. When you get on the run you probably need to stay low, do not move around.
He probably spent a little too much time in public places down in Mexico showing himself. And I would also suggest that the fugitive investigation in the States probably identified his location down there.
LEMON: Larry, I want to ask you, since you know this all too well in the short time that I have left, what's the lesson in all of this?
LARRY LEVINE, FORMER FEDERAL INMATE: Maybe in an old institution like they're at they need to upgrade the security, put shock sensors, motion sensors inside the walls. And the staff, they need to tighten things up. They need to tighten up their security protocols. To ensure something like this won't happen again.
And you know, I have information -- well, I know of inmates that actually had relationships with female staff members. And a lot of these female staff members are lonely women. They are not real attractive and when they are on the inside and they are flirting with all these men, they make them feel special.
And they can manipulate them. They can get them to do things. The woman who worked in the tailor shop, I think that's what they identified her as, suppose she brought these power tools in, she had them bundled up in some clothes and some inmates are walking down through the honor dorm, they have the power tools inside of the clothes, nobody is going to be wiser.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I've got to go, Larry. Yes, thank you, Larry, thank you, Chris, and thank you, Casey. I appreciate it.
Coming up, Josh Duggar's sister, his victims are defending him. But in the wake of his sexual molestation scandal, are his problems in the past? Are they really?
[22:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Josh Duggar's sisters are speaking out defending their brother and calling his inappropriate touching when they were not yet teenagers "very mild." But are his problems in the past? CNN's Jean Casarez has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR SEEWALD, JOSH DUGGAR'S SISTER: I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling child molester or pedophile.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: America has now heard from two of Josh Duggar's sexual molestation victims, his sisters.
SEEWALD: Josh's case, he was a boy, young boy in puberty. And were so curious about girls and that got him into some trouble.
CASAREZ: Like it or not, this all American family had a terrible secret revealed to the country about what their now 27-year-old son did 12 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR'S FATHER: He had just turned 14. And he said that he had actually improperly touched some of our daughters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: The family says it took measures with Josh inside the home. But that didn't stop the unwanted touchings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUGGAR: There were a couple of incidents where he touched them under their clothes. At that point we pulled Josh out of the home and we knew of a man who mentored young men.
[22:40:00] CASAREZ: Josh came back his family said, a changed person. We decided to ask a professional.
What do you look at as far as behavior to see if someone is just curious, experimenting versus a more serious issue with child molestation?
FRED BERLIN, JOHN HOPKIN'S SEXUAL BEHAVIORS CONSULTATION UNIT: Well, I realize there are lots of possibilities of what led a person to act in a particular way. One is, are they generally antisocial, they just behave in a variety of delinquent ways and sex is just one of them.
CASAREZ: And what about when at least one of his victims was under the age of 10.
BERLIN: This young man was living in a very unusual circumstance. I'm a not criticizing, it was almost like living in a dormitory with so many young people there rather than living in a more traditional home. And so, clearly he was exposed to temptations, he didn't handle them properly. There can be no doubt about that.
CASAREZ: And while Josh may be able to move on from his, there is no way of knowing how much damage he has done to his young victims. His sisters say their counseling has helped.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEEWALD: It was really helpful for us to just kind of close that chapter and move past it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Those statistics fair well for Josh. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, sexual offenses increase sharply at age 12 and plateau after age 14. 85 to 95 percent of those who commit offenses in early adolescence don't commit them again.
And to the expert we spoke with a key point in the Duggar case is that in 12 years no other victims have come forward.
BERLIN: As if he has turned his life around, he's living a good life, has made up his mind never to act similarly again. Does he not deserve some credit for that as well.
CASAREZ: And that's the message that Duggar's hope people will remember. Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.
LEMON: Well, the Duggar family's molestation scandal was a well-kept secret until "In Touch" weekly published police records from 2005, which they got through the Freedom of Information Act request. We call it a FOIA.
Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar have called the release of the information illegal. They said it's illegal. And my next guest said, "If I could build a time machine this would haven't come out in the first place." So, joining me now exclusively is Steve Zega, he's a Washington County Attorney. Thank you for joining us this evening.
Why do you say that, why if you could build a time machine this wouldn't have come out?
STEVE ZEGA, WASHINGTON COUNTY ATTORNEY: Well, my opinion is in the first place that the records, all the records, were protected from disclosure under Arkansas Law. And specifically exempted from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act under two separate Arkansas statutory provisions. And I believe that they should never have been released in the first place for that reason.
LEMON: Here is what Josh's sisters who's Jessa and Jill on Friday had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEEWALD: Whenever I heard the police report had been released then I said what -- like why do they have a right to do this? We're victims. They can't do this to us.
MEGYN KELLY, THE KELLY FILE HOST: And yet they did.
SEEWALD: And they did.
JILL DUGGAR, JOSH'S SISTER: It was set up to protect kids. Both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life. And the ones that are affected by those choices. It's just -- it's greatly failed. And for us, it's like go to the store and there is your picture on a magazine or whatever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Steve, do they -- or any other family members have any legal recourse?
ZEGA: I don't want to pass necessarily on their private potential causes of action or anything like that. What I can tell you is that I couldn't have said it any better than the second sister who spoke -- I'm not sure which one that was. In that, this particular provision of the law, whether you are talking about these records as part of a juvenile court proceeding or whether you are talking about them as records of child maltreatment incident in Arkansas -- either one of those particular statutes would have protected them.
And in the Arkansas -- the Arkansas legislature has carved out an exception -- two exceptions really to the Freedom of Information Act in both those circumstances. And very clearly, when it comes to records of child maltreatment not only are these records exempt in my opinion from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act, they're prohibited from disclosure.
LEMON: So, what happened Steve? What happened?
ZEGA: What happened to get them released? LEMON: Yes, if they're prohibited, what happened?
ZEGA: Well n the case of Washington County, I believe that they were release by folks of good faith making a mistake. I can't -- I can't explain any better than that because I wasn't involved in that decision-making process.
LEMON: Yes.
ZEGA: But what I can tell you is that the records very clearly, under the Child Maltreatment Act, that's 12104-108 -- I'm sorry, 1214108, were prohibited from disclosure without a court order.
[22:44:58] LEMON: Yes. So, I have to tell you that for the record we asked, CNN asked for those records after In Touch published them and our request was denied. So, and you're saying that they should not have been released.
But, in fact, though, In Touch Weekly got documents from two different entities, the Springdale Police Department and the Washington County Sheriff's Office. Some experts say that the records can be released when a case is concluded.
The names have -- and the names have been redacted and the offender has reached adulthood. Don't these records meet that standard?
ZEGA: Well, first off, I disagree with those experts. And the reason I disagree with them is twofold. First, the records don't cease to be juvenile records simply because one or more of the parties involved has aged out. The law would be awfully hollow in that instant if that were the case.
And that's exactly the policy behind the juvenile code is to keep these records from haunting you for the rest of your life. That's from the offender's side. But more important to me is the victim's side.
LEMON: Right.
ZEGA: And in this particular case, everybody knew, once certain non- named information remained in those reports. Everybody knew who these folks were. So, if you are as those two young ladies just said the victims in this report part of this law is designed to protect their confidentiality, their anonymity. And that's what didn't happen here. Yes.
LEMON: That's going to have to be the last word. I appreciate your insight on this, Steve Zega, thank you.
ZEGA: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. This summer, CNN is taking you to back to the 1970s. And one of the fondest memories of a decade is groundbreaking TV show that changed everything for generations of kids in America and around the world. When we come right back, I'm on my way to where the air is sweet. Sesame Street.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: There is a new study was released on the impact of Sesame Street. And it finds that children who watch the show are more likely to stay at the proper grade level for their age. The benefit as powerful as they get from going to preschool.
And that's been going on since the show made its day view at the dawn of the 1970s. But, numbers don't tell the whole story. Let me take you to a certain street I know.
Many Americans think that 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is the most important address in the country. But for generations of kids, and for a big kid like me this address right here, well this street, really, Sesame Street, holds a very special place in our hearts.
And after 45 years, it's an exaggeration to say that Sesame Street has changed the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL-LYNN PARENTE, "SESAME STREET" EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: The show today looks very different than the show I grew up on. And that's sort of the -- that evolution is what keeps us fresh and relevant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Growing up in the '70s, Sesame Street was unlike anything on television. So different that Mississippi banned the show early on for its inter-racial cast but that only lasted a few weeks.
Big Bird, Oscar, Bert and Ernie, Cookie Monster and Kermit, enchanting millions of kids ever since with a little help from their friend. Executive producer Carol-Lynn Parente shares that secret.
PARENTE: From the very first season of Sesame Street we've used celebrities. We've done parity. And that's hoping that the parents will watch along with their preschooler.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A hurricane could be heading towards Sesame Street.
LEMON: But it's always been much more than just fun and games. Sesame Street teaches kids and their families how to face up to all of the facts of life. Everything from 9/11 to Ferguson.
JOEY MAZZARINO, "SESAME STREET" HEAD WRITER/PUPPETEER: You would think that 46 years after Sesame Street we would not have Ferguson or we would not all these things now. But as we've seen in the last year's headlines, it's not true and we still have to make it clear that we're all human and we all share these amazing things that we should be celebrating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little faster though. Get hurry enough. Baby's coming.
LEMON: Through it all Sesame Street's families look a lot like America's families. MAZZARINO: I want to see two dad families, two mom families. I do. I
want to see all that stuff. People have a lot of problems in this country and can't deal with change and, you know, what better agent for change than Sesame Street.
LEMON: This is a really big nest. For a kid who grew up watching Sesame Street, this is a dream come true.
PARENTE: You come to Sesame Street and never age.
LEMON: I wish it would happen with me. I know. You never age on Sesame Street.
PARENTE: You never age on Sesame Street. I'm still 25.
LEMON: Sunny day, sweeping the clouds away, on my way to where the air is sweet. Sesame Street is real, and it's a very cool place.
PARENTE: Thank you. We like it.
LEMON: I want to live here. I couldn't possibly pay a visit to Sesame Street without talking to some of its famous residents. Take a look.
How do you keep a healthy life-style when you eat cookies all the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you know, that's not -- me not only eat cookies you know. Me eat all kinds of food. We love vegetable. We love fruit.
LEMON: Do you like to work out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me? Me work out. Yes, me do monster Pilates.
LEMON: Monster lattes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, monster lattes, we do elliptical like this. We like to get the heart rate up. It's important.
LEMON: What's a song for your work out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, well, me not really like one particular song. We like to mix it up a little.
LEMON: OK. All right. So, good. I'm glad...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know that song me lost me cookie at disco, that me big hit song from the '70s? We like to work out to that one.
LEMON: Count.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LEMON: What is your favorite thing to count?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, done I count everything and anything, any time, all day long, night times too.
LEMON: Yes. You have met so many children over the years. Have they changed since the '70s?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, children they have not changed. They all look at the world with such hope and promise. And I love it.
[22:55:03] LEMON: I became 6 years old all over again when I went to Sesame Street. The stars of Sesame Street have been delighting kids since the '70s. And you can see the rest of my interviews with Cookie Monster and the Count right here tomorrow night. Plus, on Wednesday, my sit down with Elmo and Abbey. You don't want to miss it. But right now, here's a look at the CNN original series, the '70s.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The '70s awakened us and polarized us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 1970s saw the development of terrorism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We bombshell after bombshell after bombshell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Water Gate scandal broke wide open today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I think of the 1970s I think more, more hair, more naked people, more misbehavior.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The world is getting crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cultural evolution just of exploded and kind of fascinating chaos emerged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of what was going on, people came home and they wanted to laugh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've got one picture taken with Archie Bunker and me. One, two, three.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a period of discovery for a lot of people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My only defense was, it was the '70s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dynamite!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'll see you back here tomorrow night. Thanks for watching.
