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CNN Tonight

Hundreds of Officers Closing in on NY Prison Escapees; Who Helped Them Escape?; Relationships Behind Bars; McKinney Cop Resigns; Back to the Seventies with Sesame Street. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 09, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:11] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: The breaking news is, hundreds of heavily armed corrections officers swarm a small town in upstate New York. Are they closing in on two escaped murderers? This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Here is what we know right now. Police going door-to-door as they hunt for two convicted killers. Investigators believed a woman who worked with them at the prison planned to pick them up after they escaped, but, at the last minute, she changed her mind. Our source says, Joyce Mitchell is providing information to police and has not been charged.

We want to get straight to CNN Jason Carroll live for us at the scene of the manhunt in Willsboro, New York. So, Jason, there is big news tonight about this Joyce Mitchell, the prison employee that investigators questioned after the escape.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

LEMON: Tell us the very latest on that.

CARROLL: Well, a couple things. As you mentioned, investigators now believed that she may have initially planned to pick up both David Sweat and Richard Matt as they emerged from the manhole. But at the last minute, possibly, she may have changed her mind.

This is part of the investigation. She is cooperating with the investigators. Also, they've taken a look at her cell phone, Don. They believe that her phone was used to make several calls to people who knew Richard Matt.

Again, unclear if she made the calls or somebody else made the calls. Again, this now part of this investigation. Also, this evening, her son coming to her defensing there is no way his mother would do anything to cooperate with two violent criminals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOBEY MITCHELL, SON OF PRISON WORKER JOYCE MITCHELL: She is not the kind of person that's going to risk her life or other people's lives to let these guys escape from prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: He's not the only one coming to Mitchell's defense. We also spoke to two of Mitchell's now a little earlier today. Both of them had nothing but nice things to say about this woman. Apparently, all of this has been too much for her over the week. And apparently, she checked herself into hospital complaining of nerves. Don.

LEMON: So, Jason, you know, you've been covering this and following it very closely here. Let's talk about the manhunt now. Does it seem as if police are any closer? Are they closing in, do you understand if they have any new leads or any new tips?

CARROLL: Well, I know it must be frustrating. They did had one tip coming in last night. Two suspicious men who are walking around during a storm outage. We're seeing crossing the street when the car approach those two men ran and that raised some red flags. That started a massive search out here in Willsboro earlier today starting at about 10.30.

A number of law enforcement on the ground also in the air we're standing here on one particular property where law enforcement members were walking shoulder-to-shoulder, through their property, Greg Bigelow's property, walking to his property into the backwoods searching there. This property boarded on one side by train tracks, on the other side by a river.

And it wasn't just a search on the ground, Don. They also checked out security cameras. Not only from residents here in this rural area, but also from businesses in town, as well. So far, that has turned up nothing. So, it must has been a frustrating day as some sort of a possible sighting, perhaps and then, after an exhaustive search, still nothing. Don.

LEMON: I can only imagine. Jason Carroll reporting for us. Jason, thank you very much. Speaking of residents, Darren Darrah who lives right in the middle of the search zone and he joins me now on the phone. Darren, good evening to you. How did it -- how did you found out that this massive manhunt for these two murderers was in your hometown right in your backyard?

DARREN DARRAH, RESIDENT OF WILLSBORO, NEW YORK: At about 10 o'clock I worked this morning and my cell phone started going off in my pocket.

LEMON: And what is someone calling you or was it an alert, what was it?

DARRAH: Facebook, actually. All sorts of people making notations and I looked at some of the pictures. And I said that's my front yard.

LEMON: Your reaction?

DARRAH: I've got to go home.

LEMON: I can imagine.

DARRAH: Yes. LEMON: So, you immediately went home and what did you return home to?

DARRAH: I returned home to a massive amount of people all over everything from state troopers to sheriff's department, Federal Marshals, and they had roadblocks. I had to go through roadblocks just to get to my driveway. And then, of course, all the media.

LEMON: Is this your worst concern living somewhat near a prison?

DARRAH: Actually, it wasn't a concern because we're so far from the prison. We're about 40 miles south of Dannemora. And it just never crossed our mind. So, about last night, when we said, well, we better lock the doors and take the keys out of the cars.

LEMON: Yes.

DARRAH: Something you don't do in a small town.

LEMON: Yes. Absolutely. You know, you had been in touch with a lot of your neighbors. You said, you know, you got home to see so much police presence and a lot of people out keep in touch with your neighbors and your friends, what are they telling you? I'm sure you guys -- as you said you're locking your doors, taking the keys of the car, are people terrified?

[22:05:07] DARRAH: I wouldn't say terrified, but certainly concerned had this belief. You know, it doesn't happen in a small town like this.

LEMON: Yes.

DARRAH: And have such a presence.

LEMON: So, you returned home. You spoke with your neighbor. You said your next door neighbor saw two men in his yard. Tell us about that? Does he think it might with the two men? What's going on here?

DARRAH: Well, it raised enough concern that he made a phone call. Which I probably would have done, in fact, with the same thing.

LEMON: Is this an area that you see a lot of strangers or is it just, you know?

DARRAH: No, it's not. That's the point. In a small town, you know who's walking up your street. You know if it's someone you need to stay away from. We don't have a street light. We don't have a -- it's a very small town.

LEMON: Yes. OK. So, go on, these two guys -- your neighbors see these two guys. Do they look out, are they ordinary? Do they look suspicious? What were they dressed for the...

DARRAH: Well, anyone could see -- anyone you see at night in the pouring rain walking down the street you kind of question. You know, when we confront them they take off running, your concerns get heightened and you make a phone call. LEMON: Yes.

DARRAH: Now, where it goes from there, you know, who knew that it would turn into all this. If it was them or if it wasn't them, but I'm really happy that at least we have a response there. You know, hopefully they'll get these guys.

LEMON: It's a big open area that they're looking for. And they could be...

DARRAH: Very, very open area.

LEMON: What does your gut tell you? Do you think it was them?

DARRAH: What's that?

LEMON: I said what does your gut tell you? Do you think it was them?

DARRAH: My gut tells me, yes, I think it was. But, you know, who's to say? It's quite a distance from here at Dannemora, but in four days, in four days, you can go a long way.

LEMON: Yes. Well, it's 40 miles, is really not that far. It's not that far. You may think it is, but it's not that far.

DARRAH: Not four days, you know.

LEMON: So, Darren Darrah, stay safe, OK? We appreciate you joining us.

DARRAH: All right. Thank you.

LEMON: I want to bring in Chris Swecker, is the former assistant director of the FBI who led the team that captured Eric Rudolph, the man who bombed the Atlanta Olympics back in 1996. And also Stuart Kaplan is a former special FBI agent. Now, he is an attorney.

Good evening. Chris, thank you for coming back this evening. Chris, if the men are in these woods, if they are on foot, how much easier is it to capture them now?

CHRIS SWECKER, LED FBI TEAM THAT CAPTURED FUGITIVE ERIC RUDOLP: Well, it does somewhat simplify things, Don. Because it's still a very localized manhunt. It's not a nationwide fugitive hunt. But it really does make things, in one sense, more difficult because it's manpower intensive. They have to create a perimeter around this area and they have to close it up so tight that a rabbit couldn't get through it.

LEMON: Yes. As I was listening to Darren Darrah, and he says, you know, we don't even have a street light. We don't even lock our doors. I'm sure there are lots of places there. There are barns, you know, little houses that are abandoned or whatever that these guys could be, take us behind the scenes on this manhunt especially they're zeroing in on this particular place. It doesn't mean that they're there, it means that they're looking there for the possibility that they're there, correct? SWECKER: That's correct. I mean, we don't know how credible this

sighting was or possible sighting was. So, there's a lot of guess work involved here. I mean, they can put a perimeter around a larger area, but as you say, there are barns there are empty buildings, there is probably shelters where they can go. They can actually invade someone's home and hold them hostage, which has happened before.

LEMON: Yes. I didn't want to say them. I'm glad you mentioned that because I did not want to mention that possibility. That's a very frightening possibility.

Stuart, a reporter from a local paper it's the time in June in quoted a law enforcement source braised on the case and here's what he says, he said, "Two inmates used a small electrical saw powered by extension cords and a sledge hammer to cut and pound their way to freedom." How on earth could they have gotten these tools inside a maximum security prison?

STUART KAPLAN, KAPLAN SCIENCE & PARKER P.A. FOUNDING PARTNER: Well, you know, a correctional institution is similar to an educational institution, a hospital institution. They, too, have a tremendous infrastructure of maintenance personnel, plumbers, electricians, carpenters.

And all of those -- all of that type of equipment is all readily available just to keep up with fixing pipes, fixing electrical issues. So, those -- that type of equipment would not surprise me to be present and readily available in a correctional institution.

LEMON: So, we spoke to a resident there just a moment ago who said his neighbor saw two men who he thought were suspicious. There been a number of sightings today by people who think that they have seen them in and that one of them was carrying a guitar case. What do you make of that, Stuart? Carrying a guitar case, what would be the purpose?

KAPLAN: Well, I mean, to me, you know, eyewitness accounts sometimes are not as reliable. I'm not so sure what to make of someone carrying a guitar case.

[22:10:04] Obviously, these two men are on the run. They're desperate. They're going to resort to desperate measures. They need food, they need clothing. They need financial assistance. So, my biggest concern would be to anybody living in the area obviously to ensure their garages, their cars, their homes are locked tight. Because these men are going to resort to getting those type of clothing, food, to sustain themselves, especially with the climate in the odd, Don, that's right now where it does get very cold at night.

LEMON: You know, the sightings, possible sightings are near lake and do you think that they were, you know, you said, looking to get food and water and their hands, or maybe a possibility of a boat? I ask that to you, Chris.

SWECKER: Well, I think that they're improvising all the way through now. So, I think they'll take advantage of whatever is available. It depends on what they have to sustain themselves right now. And as we talked about they're probably going to have to commit crimes to get any means whatsoever to sustain themselves.

LEMON: All right. Chris Swecker and Stuart Kaplan, thank you. I appreciate you.

KAPLAN: You're welcome.

LEMON: All right. You know, you're going to come back. I'm sorry, I've just been told that. You know, we have much, much more on tonight's manhunt when we come right back.

Plus, the police officer caught on camera at this Texas pool party. He resigns. I'm going to talk to some of the teens who were there. Also, Orange is the New Black. You've seen that new Netflix that show is a fictional relationship between a prison guard and a female inmate. There's even a name for that syndrome. And we've got a closer look. That's coming up.

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Our breaking news tonight. The manhunt heats up for two escaped murderers on the loose somewhere in upstate New York. Back with me now is Chris Swecker, former assistant director of the FBI. Also Stuart Kaplan, a former FBI special agent, now an attorney.

As a matter of fact though, they could be anywhere. It doesn't just have to be in upstate New York. That's where they're centering that search right now though.

Stuart, I have to ask you this, we keep showing the pictures of them, but the possibility that they even look like that now, could they be disguised, obviously wearing different clothing, wigs, make-up to cover tattoos?

KAPLAN: Yes. Certainly with the reporting of how well prepared they were. And certainly the amount of time that probably went into this preparation to get the head start that they now have, I would not be surprised if they are wearing some sort of disguises to include just articles of clothing, facial hair, maybe wigs, obviously in an effort to evade detection.

But, Don, I'll make it very clear. And, of course, since it's an ongoing investigation, you know, the FBI that's out there, they're the best-of-the-best. In the age of technology where all of these devices leave footprints, I would rest assure that they ever putting together this puzzle. And I would not be surprised if it would not be too soon before these two men are captured.

LEMON: How much, Chris, do you think it put them off that the woman who was supposed to pick them up never showed up?

SWECKER: Yes, I think that was a major deviation in their plans. I think they expected to be in a car in long are very far away from where they are now, where we think they are now. So, yes, this is a bad situation for them.

They're on -- we think they're on foot. Although there's a possibility that they could have gotten their hands on a car, stolen a car. And I don't think they'll be able to get out of the area, however, and as just we talked about. I don't even think that disguises will help them at this point.

LEMON: Yes, too much, there's just too much presence there. So, I want you guys to take a look at this, because tonight, CNN interviewed Richard Matt's accomplice in the 1997 murder. His name is Lee Bates, right? Who said that Matt murdered the man right in front of him. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE BATES, FUGITIVE'S FORMER ACCOMPLICE: Torture is probably an understatement. Because once he -- at different points during the commission of what was the crime there, he used duct tape to tie Mr. Rickerson up. He beat him with anything and everything that he possibly can.

A knife sharpener, a security device for the club for my automobile. He physically pull -- grabbed Mr. Rickerson's hands and pulled his fingers back until they snapped. And in a fit of rage, he reached into the car, grabbed Mr. Rickerson by his head and snapped his neck in front of me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, why is this man in an honor word, in any type of a facility?

KAPLAN: Well, you know, unfortunately, as the years go on and part of the problem with our correctional institution as it is today, you know, people forget and that's just an unfortunate situation. Certainly for the victims of these type of crimes. You know, someone gets convicted, they get sentenced to life without parole.

But unfortunately, as the years go on, these men or these women that are incarcerated are able to gain favor within these correctional institutions and as they gain favor they're able to get a little bit more freedom. A little bit more latitude.

And unfortunately, it seems in this particular case, maybe now this correctional institution is going to pay the ultimate price by giving these guys a little bit too much freedom to get access to what they now have been able to accomplish synonymous with the famous Clint Eastwood movie, "Escape from Alcatraz."

LEMON: Yes. I'm sure do doubt facilities all over the country will be doing the same thing. A baffle of news reporter interviewed Richard Matt's son who said, my father has a genius I.Q. so, why did he -- why did they not have him under closer surveillance. Which is a question because if he's a sociopath of mentality could probably convince, he's probably very convincing, so why wasn't he under, you know, heavier security, Chris?

[22:19:55] SWECKER: Well, it's a large institution. Everyone in there is a violent criminal. And these people, as you mentioned, these people are sociopaths. They can assume an institutional identity and do whatever it takes to get privileges, to convince people that they're on their best behavior. It looks like that was the case here when, in fact, this guy is an apex predator. I mean...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Would the guard know how cunning he is though? Would they have access to that information?

SWECKER: I'm sure they have a profile on him and they've observed him over the years. But I do agree with the analysis that complacency sets in at these type of prison. There's so much routine activities and I think they just get complacent.

The other aspect is prison guards are very low paid in the states system. And honestly, you don't get the best of the best in the prisons.

LEMON: All right, guys. I appreciate it. When we come right back, caught on camera, the police corporal has shown in this video he has resigned. I'm going to talk to the teenagers who were at the pool party gone horribly wrong.

Plus, Orange is The New Black. You have seen this Netflix series which is a show a fictional relationship between a prison guard and a female inmate. There's even a name for that syndrome. We have a closer look that's coming up.

[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A lot of Americans may not realize what can go on behind bars including sexual relationships between guards and inmates. It's common enough that scientists have looked into it. CNN's Dan Simon reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's going to be fine, baby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we have different definitions of fine. I'm about to lose my job.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's one of the dominant story lines in hit Netflix show "Orange is The New Black." A prison guard in a romantic and sexual relationship with a female inmate who gets pregnant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We consider something out.

SIMON: What may surprise you is that hundreds of consensual sexual relationships between guards and inmates are documented each year at America's prisons. Even what the sexes are reversed according to a federal study.

Case in point, Nancy Gonzalez, who worked as a night guard in a federal prison in Brooklyn. She was accused of sneaking into rooms to have sex with death row inmate Ronald Wilson. A man convicted of killing undercover police detectives execution style on Staten Island. This 2013 video of Gonzalez walking from court showed her pregnant with Wilson's child.

ANTHONY RICCO, GONZALEZ'S ATTORNEY: She is eight months pregnant and you can see that she's very upset.

SIMON: Her attorney called it a complicated case.

RICCO: People find love in the strangest places. And people get together in the most difficult circumstances. We live in a society where these events happen. These types of cases are unusual, but they're not uncommon.

SIMON: Gonzalez pled guilty to having an unlawful relationship and was sentenced to a year in prison.

SIMON: According to a study last year by the Bureau of Justice Statistics more than half of all substantiated incidents of staff sexual misconduct in America's prisons to jails were committed by female staff.

Experts say oftentimes, the guards who initiate these relationships have a psychological condition.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Hybristophilia is the sexual attraction to someone who has committed a terribly outrageous act. And usually the more violent or heinous the acts, the deeper the attraction.

One notorious case includes that of Bobby Parker, the wife of a prison warden in Oklahoma. She disappeared in 1994 along with a convicted murderer named Randolph Dial.

A decade later, she was found living with him in Texas. Prosecutors say, the two fell in love while Parker insisted she was kidnapped. A jury convicted Parker, but she served only half of a one-year sentence.

JORDAN: The female correction officer or prison worker very often believes that she is in love with the make prisoner or she is the only one who understands him or could save him or reformed him or rescue.

SIMON: Even if it's consensual, any sexual contact between an inmate and a prison staff member is illegal. But the data showing that only about half of those workers are ever prosecuted.

Dan Simon, CNN, San Francisco.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: It is fascinating. I want to talk more about this. Now, it's coming of this case. Casey Jordan she joins me right here. So, Casey, you say that it is not uncommon for women to fall in love with prisoners and it is called hybristophilia. So, tell me about that.

JORDAN: Yes. We don't have exact statistics. But about 15 years ago, a really great study was done by Sheila Eisenberg, about women who love bad men. And she did get some very good data.

Hybristophilia it's not just women falling in love with bad men. It's any sexual -- it's actually a paraphilia, a sexual attraction to someone who has done a horrible, heinous or violent crime. But we've broadened it over the years as we...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It's not just, oh, do you love bad boys, this is beyond that.

JORDAN: Yes. Because it's not just sexual. It's very cerebral and romantic, especially for women. And they find that this disorder is 90 percent females. Falling in love with serial killers, we know about Charles Manson and the Menendez brothers have -- and almost every serial killer gets tons of letters from women who think I understand you. I see something in your eyes...

LEMON: Is that were -- because they're so violent, right, and dangerous, what makes them so attractive? Is that...

JORDAN: Well, we have to ask what's up for the women. OK.

LEMON: OK.

JORDAN: What the men get out of it is they get to manipulate these women and they get a lot of validation for all of their denial and for their belief that their victims were complicit. The women validates all of that. But what is in for it?

We have found that a tremendous number of these women were sexually or physically abused as children. They're very vulnerable, very unsecured, they have low self-esteem and to put it mildly, they don't have a life.

The celebrity of the violent person gives them a sense of social status. But, also, there's a huge alpha male factor to it. And maybe you can call it evolutionary, but these women are like, look what this man did, he's king of the hill. He's the kind of guy that not only could I understand, but I'm the one who can reform him, change him, rescue him, break him. I'm the only one. I'm the special one.

LEMON: The fixer. You're the only one who can do it.

JORDAN: Exactly.

[22:30:00] LEMON: So, are we talking about women who have trouble with relationships? Women, you know, on the outside, are they lonely? What kind of woman are we talking about here?

JORDAN: Some of them are in relationships. They have boyfriends, they have husbands. But, usually, they're malcontent. They're very often are looking for more excitement in their life. And what's more excitement than, you know, than having a relationship with a serial killer.

But make no mistake, they love this relationship. They enter a huge state of denial to the point of being delusional but they like it because it's safe. They get to have a relationship, romantic, cerebral, sometimes sexual with a guy that they're safe from. They get to flirt with danger. It's like riding a roller coaster the thrill of being so close and having this man so close to them that he can't kill them. He would never kill them. It feels safe to them.

LEMON: I mean, it has nothing to do with how one looks, right?

JORDAN: In terms of the victims"

LEMON: No. Yes, in terms of the victims, no.

JORDAN: Are the woman who are attracted or not at all.

LEMON: Yes.

JORDAN: I think it was Eric or Lyle Menendez married a playboy model, a supermodel. Some of these women are extremely attractive. And some of them have healthy relationship with the men outside. But they have that need to be special. And they really think that this alpha male who's in prison can be the one who fulfills all of their emotional need but it doesn't necessarily have to be physical.

LEMON: So, how do you prevent it? Is there -- are there or someone is seeking a job or is there something you should notice on the job while they're there, you know, watching the prisoners?

JORDAN: Well, a lot of these women they fall into two categories. You have passive and aggressive hybristophilia. The aggressive ones are your Bonnie and Clydes. They actively participate in the crimes with the males like Karla Leanne Homolka did with her husband.

But the majority of them are passive and they are kind who start as pen pals with prisoners. But some of them actually inject themselves into prison situations, so that they are working with a church group or tutoring as a volunteer, some of them work them.

Many of them don't know they're looking for it. It just happens naturally when they're exposed to these men while in the prison setting. They find themselves falling in love. They think they have finally found the man of their dreams and it's perfect for them because they get to be in love but get to be safe.

LEMON: Fascinating.

JORDAN: Yes.

LEMON: Thank you, Casey Jordan.

JORDAN: And dangerous.

LEMON: Yes. And dangerous. Thank you very much.

JORDAN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Up next, more breaking news. A police officer resigns after he's shown on camera yanking a 14-year-old girl at a pool party to the ground and kneeling on her back. Did race play role in this? I'm going to talk to some of the teens who were there.

[22:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news tonight in McKinney, Texas, where video of a police officer. Police officers responding to report a fighting at a pool party goes in viral.

Officer Eric Casebolt who drew his gun on several teens, pushed one girl to the ground and then knelt on her back. He has resigned. I want you to listen to McKinney Police Chief Greg Conley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG CONLEY, MCKINNEY POLICE CHIEF: I want to say to our community that the actions of Casebolt as seen on the video of the disturbance at the community pool are indefensible. Our policies, our training, our practice do not support his actions. He came into the call out of control. And, as the video shows, was out of control during the incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now is Tatyana Rhodes who organized the pool party. Also Emmanuel Obi, Tatyana's attorney, and Jahda Bakari who attended the party.

Thank you, guys, for joining us here on CNN. I really appreciate it.

TATYANA RHODES, ORGANIZER OF POOL PARTY: Thank you.

LEMON: I'm going to start with you. You know, this was your party. It went horribly wrong. Are you glad that this officer resigned?

RHODES: I feel that Mr. Obi should answer that for me.

EMMANUEL OBI, TATYANA RHODE'S ATTORNEY: Yes, Don, you know, in terms of going horribly wrong, you know, you're right. It did go horribly wrong. The actions of this officer, you know, at this party and, you know, in the aftermath in creating the scene did transform what was to be, you know, a joyful, fun filled day at the pool into something that is out of a horror film.

And we are certainly glad that the first part of justice in his resignation has been served and we look forward to next steps.

LEMON: What do you think about this officer? Tatyana, I want to hear from you?

RHODES: I feel that he could have done way better, performed better and act better towards teens in this situation. Just like in the video, his peers were working way better, more appropriately than he was.

LEMON: I'm sure you didn't think that the day was, you know, end the way it did when you started off having this party. So, you had a party and tell me what happened. How did the party come together? As I understand it, you had a party but then some flyer some ended on social and then a whole bunch of people showed up who should not have showed up. What happened?

OBI: Don, you know, I think...

LEMON: I'd like to hear from Tatyana. What happened, Tatyana?

RHODES: Well, it was just a gathering for me, friends, in this summer event, basically.

LEMON: Yes. So, what do you -- you know, today you had been at the center of this and, you know, as I said to you, you know, before we started here, you probably never thought that you would get this much attention. What would you like to say about what's going on here as far as the party, the officer, the reaction, everything?

JAHDA BAKARI, ATTENDED POOL PARTY: I feel, like, this has gotten some really great attention for how things have happened and it just keeps showing that you should look out and that things can really happen.

LEMON: You know, again, the officer resigned today. The police chief came out and said, as far as he's concerned, the reaction by this one officer was terrible. This had nothing to do with race in this town. The town is not that way; the police department is not that way. Do you agree with that Mr. Obi?

[22:40:03] OBI: I do not. I think if you look at the statements that have come out by various parties that were in attendance, you know, from the situation involving the, you know, certain adults that were there. They were using racially charged language and stereotypes, you know, directed at these children.

You know, so many different, you know, from the young man who filmed the video who remarked that he was just so interesting and surprising to him that, as cops were, you know, tussling, you know, young other African-American men to the ground that he was literally skipped over.

You know, when you look all of those things in totality, you can't walk away or not think or, you know, that race was a factor.

LEMON: So, definitely you think race was a factor in this. As I understand, there was a confrontation with two women in the beginning who were using racial slurs and that they actually, physically attacked you, Tatyana. Is that true?

RHODES: Yes.

LEMON: How did that happen?

RHODES: Well, basically, it happened by them stating what they said. Saying those rude words to teens. Teens shouldn't have to go through that. It's something that no one should go through and a young lady named Grace stepped up and spoke. She spoke out stating that it's not right. It's wrong. You shouldn't do that. And that's right. She was right for that. That's how I feel.

LEMON: So, here's my question and I've got to ask you this. Because there are people who were saying no matter what, even if the officers were in the wrong that you should always comply with a police officer. Would not have gone that far had the young lady in the video just got on the ground and the other people at the party had just, you know, succumb to the police officer and follow their orders. What do you guys think of that?

OBI: I think, you know, in a properly administered scenario, yes, but as you can clearly see from the video, this officer's conducts, you know, from his Rambo-like entry on to the scene to his just, you know, running around in a very erratic way, that's not how you affect an orderly dispersion of a crowd.

And if you're giving, you know, the folks that you're trying to disperse completing commands, you know, stay here, leave, you know, and I think that the statements that came out from the chief today, you know, pretty much support the fact that, you know, that his conduct in that regard was inappropriate and did contribute to what ultimately happen.

LEMON: Officers is supposed to deescalate the situation instead of escalating them. He certainly did not do that. Before I go, I have to ask you, how is the young lady in the bathing suit? Tatyana, I know you know her.

RHODES: Yes, pretty much she's holding up. I'm not really sure. We haven't had full contact or communication with her.

LEMON: Yes. Well, Tatyana, Jadha and Mr. Obi, thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us here in CNN. Best of luck to you, OK?

OBI: Thanks for having us.

LEMON: And coming up, some say the officer was targeting black teens. Others say, race had nothing to do with it. We're going to hear from both sides when we come right back.

[22:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, that's a video. Video though only tells part of the story. Officer Eric Casebolt cursing at several black teenagers slamming one to the ground and then upholstering his gun all at a pool party in broad daylight.

So, what we don't know is did it have anything to do with race. Joining me now is Jordan Gray and also Jordan's father, Maurice. Good to have you both on.

So, Jordan, you attended the party with your siblings. What did you experience?

JORDAN GRAY, ATTENDED POOL PARTY: Well, when I went into the party, it was just a casual party where by I came in down the pool and swimming around. It's just a large group of teens came in and that's when there was more complaints about people jumping their fence. And more seemed like a racial type of segregation type of thing. But it was more of just a large group of teens getting looked at as thugs and just looking crazy.

LEMON: So, that's your assessment. And we have a lot of people who are there in the ground and they're saying that and it's divided, not necessarily along racial lines. Some are saying that the police officers was right because there were people who jumped the fence at the HOH as you're only supposed to have two guests, there were far more than that.

And that there were not complying with police officers. So, before we talk about that I want to know what was going on before that tape started rolling at the party. Was this party out of control? Were there people jumping the fence? And if there were people jumping the fence and the security guard told them not to, did they comply?

J. GRAY: Well, yes, it started to get out of hand. More and more people started to arrive at the party. But we had our situation under control. We started telling people you're not messing with the kids around the pool area. And with the people who tried to come in the pool we told them that we're not going to let them in because we're not part of their situation.

LEMON: So, it was a party that got out of control because of a handful of people who didn't follow the rule. So, Maurice, do you think that this was a teenager problem, a race problem, a police problem, what do you think?

MAURICE GRAY, 5 OF HIS ATTENDED POOL P ARTY: Well, I think basically it became a bunch of teens that was just a pool party. It got out of hand. It kind of become a racial incident when it was just the fight of the rogue officer only dealing with the black males and black females.

[22:49:49] And according -- as you know, when Brandon took the picture or the actual video, he said himself, he heard the racial slurs. But if you want to look at the actual community, no, it wasn't just a race there. They came and said OK, we're going to -- it's a black-on-black, you know. We're going to take them down.

Now, when the officer got there, we don't know what his intentions there. But his intentions did look like it was race motivated.

LEMON: And then he comes in when you see him do the barrel roll, that was a bit odd. I'm not sure if he watches down or some rolled over. But they definitely came in, you know, looking at least from the video, looking aggressive. So, the question is, when you see, if we can put up the video back up, once they get to -- and that's the roll where he comes in. Once they get to the young lady in the bathing suit, right, and then the officer is trying to get her on the ground, were you near anywhere near that, Jordan?.

J. GRAY: Yes, sir.

LEMON: You were right there. J. GRAY: I was right there in the situation.

LEMON: OK. So, then the people are all around the officer, they swarm the officer. That's when the officer pulled his gun, what did you think of that? Do you think that they were threatening?

M. GRAY: That was very threatening. So, anybody around the situation and I was very concerned for my cousin that was right near the car.

LEMON: Well, do you think that the people were threatening to the officer when they swarmed around him?

J. GRAY: No, sir, they were not part of any (inaudible).

LEMON: And then when he pulled the gun, what happened?

M. GRAY: When he pulled the gun the two boys scattered off. I started to walk peacefully towards my car. And under this rogue everybody is started to walking away from the situation.

LEMON: This young lady in the bathing suit, I have her name, I can't recall her right now, do you know her?

J. GRAY: The girl that's on the ground?

LEMON: Yes, sir.

J. GRAY: I call her D.J., but my cousin calls her something else. I don't really know the little girl's name.

LEMON: Do you know how she's doing?

J. GRAY: Not at all. I would say after the situation that she's a little shaken up.

LEMON: Her name is Dajahri Bectin. (ph) But as what happened to her? Do you know if did they take her in? What happen?

J. GRAY: After the situation I heard that she was took...

LEMON: Into custody?

J. GRAY: Right.

LEMON: Or lock-up what have you? But you don't know what happened after that, right?

J. GRAY: No, sir.

LEMON: Why do you think the officer resigned today?

J. GRAY: Why do I think he resigned?

LEMON: What do you think of that?

J. GRAY: I think that he knew what he was doing. That once they start to investigate the situation there, maybe they'll look more in his past or maybe in his current situation. Maybe that it's going to come back and harm him or maybe he resigned he can get away from all this trouble.

LEMON: Maurice, I know you're from St. Louis. Is there any comparison between St. Louis -- you know what's happening in St. Louis and Ferguson and what's going on McKinney?

M. GRAY: Correct. The comparison is about the same. It is still an out for this. The officer did basically didn't want to do this. It was basically, he came in and targeted and unfortunately targeting not all, you know, white and blacks. He targeted and unfortunately, he targeted just black kids.

And I think he was more of him just being, you know, when he started he fail. It was just more of being humiliation, I think. And it didn't make any better when probably kids probably started laughing. And so, I think then it became a pride thing.

LEMON: Because I've heard many people in the neighborhood say that if the neighborhood is not set up that way. It seems like you're saying that as well, you had tons of -- you have five kids who are at the party and then, you know, dealing with all of this. What do you want to see happen in the future, seconds we have left here?

M. GRAY: I just want to see the neighborhood come together. Like I say...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Is that possible?

M. GRAY: I think it is because you still going to have bad apples in the neighborhood that saying that, you know, they don't have their opinions. But, you know, race is going to be race, but they're going to still have their opinions no matter what. You'll see the truth calls the individuals once these types of come out.

LEMON: All right. Maurice Gray, Jordan Gray, thank you very much. Jordan you said to me in the break I'll tell our viewers that thought you'd be on television someday, but not like this.

So, I hope to see you o television in a positive fashion. You handle yourself very nicely here in CNN and another time in a different fashion, a positive fashion for doing something good. Thank you. I appreciate both of you. Good luck, OK?

J. GRAY: You're welcome.

M. GRAY: You're welcome. Thank you. Have a nice night.

LEMON: All right. You too, as well.

This summer, CNN is taking you back to the '70s and one of my favorite memories of the decade is a TV show that changed generation of kids in America and around the world. When we come right back, I'm going to talk to some of my favorite Sesame Street stars, Cookie Monster and the Count.

[22:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Well, this summer CNN takes you back to "THE SEVENTIES". The first episode is about groundbreaking TV like Sesame Street. So, I was pretty excited when I got the chance to sit down with the Cookie Monster and the Count. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Cookie, I've been knowing you since the '60s and '70s.

COOKIE MONSTER, SESAME STREET CHARACTER: Yes.

LEMON: And now all of the sudden, you're on Facebook, you have a social media presence. Do you tweet?

MONSTER: Me tweet.

LEMON: Why is it important for you to tweet and for you to be on social media?

MONSTER: You know, me get to stay connected. You know, it's all about being connected to the people. Yes.

LEMON: Yes?

MONSTER: And so, you know, why not? If you can, you know, make someone smile every day through Twitter, we do that.

LEMON: What do you talking about?

MONSTER: Oh, cookies and pretty much cookies. Sometimes we talk about cookies.

LEMON: Do you have a car? Do you drive?

THE COUNT, SESAME STREET CHARACTER: I do. I do have a car. It is called The Count mobile. And it is a -- I think it is due on its emissions test.

[23:00:04] LEMON: Is it? Do you know that I drive around in a car?

THE COUNT: I need to take that in, OK? Who want to get the tickets?

LEMON: It is known that I drive a car called the Blizzard-mobile. Would you like to borrow it sometimes?

THE COUNT: Oh, that would be wonderful. We could do a little drive in the park with it.

LEMON: And you can count the snowflakes.

THE COUNT: Oh, that sounds marvelous! Yes.

(LAUGHTER) THE COUNT: You're a good-thinking man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, we're going to have much more Sesame Street tomorrow night. That's it for us tonight. Thanks for watching.

"AC360" starts right now.