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CNN Tonight

New York Manhunt Widens for Escaped Killers; Why Do Some Women Fall in With Convicts Behind Bars?; Comedian Colin Quinn's Answers to America's Race Problem; Visiting Sesame Street. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 10, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:00:00] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Breaking news. The manhunt widens. Have police been looking in the wrong place for two escaped killers. This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Here is what we know right now.

Police in New York State said, they are looking behind every tree and under every rock. But the governor of Vermont says, there's reason to believe that Richard Matt and David Sweat may be there. As matter of fact, the Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin joins me on the one right now.

Governor, good evening. Thank you so much for joining us. As we talked tonight, do you believe these two killers are in your state?

GOV. PETER SHUMLIN, VERMONT: We just have no idea. What we do know, Don, is that the only indication they have given to credible sources prior to their escape is that they thought it would be wise to head for a remote camp in Vermont because they thought there would be less heat in Vermont from law enforcement than there is New York.

So, obviously, Governor Cuomo and I are both extremely concerned about this. He and I are both extraordinarily concerned about the welfare and safety of New Yorkers and Vermonters and we're working collaboratively to try find these guys, these scary guys, they're bad guys, they are murderers, they're dangerous and we want to get them back and locked up where they belong.

LEMON: Governor, you mentioned a remote camp. Talk to me more about that. What do you mean about that?

SHUMLIN: Well, you know, we're not talking about a specific location. But it's clear to us, based upon conversations that -- based on information that we have, that we can't divulge at this point, that their vision was to head to Vermont to chill out for a bit while things calm down. So, if there's no specific location, we have no idea where they are. But, obviously, we're taking that information seriously.

LEMON: OK. And you said, everyone is cooperating there. How exactly are police in Vermont helping in this search, governor? SHUMLIN: Well, we now embedded our Vermont State Police and the New

York State Police in their controls. We obviously have now hundreds of Vermont folks working together with New York folks.

We've given the authority for New York State Police and law enforcement to come into Vermont, vice versa. We're really kind of run of seamless operation to try to hunt these guys down.

Now, we don't want panicking. We're kind of used good Vermont -- good Vermont common sense, but there are common eye, you know, feel very, you know, are obviously extraordinary concern. We got to find these guys. These are not -- you know, these guys are nasty murderers, whoever no moral core and we've got to find them.

LEMON: Yes, you said they're nasty murderers no moral core. You don't want people to panic. But people in multiple states, governor, including Vermont are sleeping uneasily at night. What are you telling them?

SHUMLIN: Well, we're saying to use good, common sense. Obviously, there's reason for concern. But, you know, there's a couple things that we have to remember. First of all, obviously, lock your doors. If you see these guys, do not get near them. Call law enforcement; let law enforcement do the dirty work.

And, you know, when you think about these situations that look this, you know, obviously concerning to all of us, most often, you find folks like this not because law enforcement happens to be in the right place at the right time, although it usually works like that.

Law enforcement on both sides -- both states are working really hard. But it most often happens because Vermonters or New Yorkers see something unusual and they report it. So, you know, you walk passed a stolen boat on the beach or a stranded boat and say, hey, maybe that's how they got across.

Or you see a broken in camp where food is ripped off, the weapons are ripped off and you reported immediately. So, it's really a question of being on heightened alert and ensuring that we're all using common sense as we try to route these guys out.

LEMON: Are you worried about the people -- and possibly because there's a lot of remote areas there, possibly in the cabins and in those areas, could they be in very real danger, governor?

SHUMLIN: Well, there's just no question, when you have killers like this on the loose who are supposed to be locked up and escaped, you know, anyone who has contact with them are in danger. So, I don't want to minimize the fear here. We're all extraordinarily concerned.

That's why Governor Cuomo and I are, you know, have our law enforcement communications and every resource that we can put on this manhunt. These guys are bad news. But, at the same time, you know, we've got to all remain level headed. Use common sense and work together to get these guys back into prison. LEMON: I'm wondering about your outreach because I'm sure not everyone

watches on television or pays attention to the news or radio. They may be watching something else or reading something else. What about the level of awareness, what are you doing to make sure the people are aware, governor?

[22:04:57] SHUMLIN: Well, you've got to remember that my call came from Governor Cuomo late this morning. He and I just got this information recently about the Vermont connection.

But we are now not only deploying all of our resources, talking to press, trying to educate everybody to the need to apprehend these guys. But we're also doing common sense things. I've got my state police and law enforcement going into remote campgrounds, going to our state parks, letting folks know what these guys look like.

Trying to ask for their help or obviously doing heightened law enforcement efforts. We're looking, you know, we're doing car stops, we're doing all the things that logically would be done. When we're looking for a couple of guys who are desperate, cold blooded murderers in on the run.

LEMON: I want to put that number back up, governor, as we thank you here. Again, that's just so that people are aware. 1-800-give tip, 1- 800-give tip, and that's 1-800-448-3847. 1-800-448-3847.

We'll continue to put that number up throughout the evening here on CNN. Governor Peter Shumlin, the governor of Vermont, thank you for your time, sir.

SHUMLIN: Thanks, Don. I appreciate it.

LEMON: Let's go to CNN's Jason Carroll now live for us in Dannemora, New York. And Randi Kaye on the Vermont Border at Lake Champlain where they are searching as well.

Randi, to you first, you heard the governor, law enforcement on high alert. They're searching a massive area now and it is expanding. What can you tell us?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is certainly expanding here to Vermont, Don. And that is because they think that they might be here. Now, there hasn't been any official sighting here of course. But they think that they could have crossed the border from upstate New York.

But I have to tell you, what a different it is here in Vermont than what we've been experiencing in Dannemora, New York, upstate there where the prison. We, every day, had to go through checkpoints along the road going back and forth to that prison.

Here, we took a ferry to get here to Vermont and Lake Champlain. We crossed the lake. Nobody asked us for identification getting on the ferry or getting off the ferry. We didn't have to go through any checkpoints to get here to our live location.

Now, I know that authorities are saying that they're working to secure the border, we just haven't seen any evidence of that yet, Don. But I can tell you, from the air today, they are certainly looking for these guys. We saw it firsthand.

From the air, what authorities are up against is clear. So many places for the escapees to hide.

What would you be looking for in order to help with the search from the air?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there's particular intelligence. We'll have the ground guys put us on something we could take a look. Other times, we'll use the camera which are sensor. When you do a wide area search for strategic views. You can actually see guys hiding behind rocks, or behind rocks, or buildings or under shelters, if you will. Lake Champlain obviously here to the right other side is Vermont.

KAYE: And if you got an alert right now that the two escapees were spotted, what would be our plan of action?

CARROLL: We would proceed direct over to wherever we're getting a call out. It would be overhead and wait for tasking, if you will. And maybe need us high so we can stay out of sight, so we don't spook them or we might go down low so we can try to pin them down.

KAYE: Even with more than 500 leads, pinning them down is no easy task.

You can see why it's such a challenge to find these guys. Even from the air we were looking down on the Adirondacks, there's been 6 million acres of trees and heavy woods. And if you look out there in the distance where the color changes at that reach, that's the Canadian Border, just 10 miles away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just to the north of the prison kind of out of the perimeter, if you will.

KAYE: We could also see Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora where the men escaped from.

So, you can see though, it's not far from a heavily wooded area. I mean, it wouldn't take a lot to disappear into the woods from the cell, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct. They could have gone up to the north or this passed woods towards Canada or they could have gone to the south. Or to the southwest you will go to the mountain ranges out there. Pretty easy to get lost over there.

KAYE: Yes, and they can certainly get lost up here in the State of Vermont. 75 percent of this state is covered with forestland. So, plenty of hiding places. But here's the problem, Don. Is that they think these guys are here in the State of Vermont. But they don't know where and they certainly don't know how long it's going to take to find them, Don.

LEMON: Oh, yes. Great reporting, Randi. Stand by because I want to get to Jason here. Jason, no sign of these killers yet. Is the path going cold there?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I don't know if you can say it's gone, cold. It's definitely going to be a challenge. I mean, you and I as we listened to Randi Kaye's report there, you know that this is a vast area surrounding this prison here.

A rural area surrounding the prison, as well. That's why law enforcement wanted to double up on their efforts just to make sure that these two fugitives were not in this immediate area. That's why we saw the retracing their steps today.

Officers coming down this very street across the street from the prison, knocking on doors, checking buildings just to make sure that they did everything in the immediate area, Don, that they needed to do.

Once again, the governor says he's asking the public to be vigilant, to look out for anything suspicious. And at the end of the day though, they do believe they are going to find these inmates, but it is going to be a challenge.

[22:10:04] LEMON: Joyce Mitchell's family, the woman who works at the prison is allegedly to be the woman to pick them, right, to get a drive to get away car, what have you. You spoke to some of her family members today and they're defending her. What did they tell you?

CARROLL: I spoke to her daughter-in-law and I spoke to her at length. She said, 95 percent of what she is hearing out there in the media, she says, is not true. This is Page Mitchell again, this is Joyce Mitchell's daughter-in-law. Talk to her about that.

I mean, when I asked her about this alleged allegation out there that her mother-in-law was going to provide the getaway for these two men and she change her mind at the last minute. When I asked her about, Don, -- asked about that, Don, she's called that absolutely ridiculous. She also said that her mother-in-law, knowing who she is, would never knowingly help these violent men.

LEMON: Jason Carroll, thank you. I appreciate your reporting this evening. I want to bring in now Laura Marlow. She is the superintendent of schools for the Northern Adirondack District, which is right in the search zone and she used to work at the Clinton Correctional Facility where Richard Matt and David Sweat were imprisoned. Good evening, Laura.

Good evening

LEMON: Police are searching house-to-house for these murderers. What are you seeing?

LAURA MARLOW, ADIRONDACK CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT: Well, I'm seeing that schools are being extra diligent and really trying to make sure that their campuses are safe and are taking extra precautions. Even though safety measures are every day in place.

Students are not being allowed to go out on recess. Field trips are being re-evaluated. If there's any type of outdoor activities such as hikes. And also we're asking that students wait inside and wait for the busses.

LEMON: Yes. So, you know, watching this from a...

MARLOW: So, there is extra diligence.

LEMON: Yeah, I can see that. You know, it is stressful just watching being from away from it. People all over the country are concerned. And a lot of attention focused on where you live.

You used to work in the prison teaching English?

MARLOW: Yes, I do.

LEMON: What it's like inside the prison?

MARLOW: Yes. Yes, I worked seven years as a teacher in the night program for Spanish-speaking inmates, I taught them English and then I also worked in the annex, the lesser security prison in the summer.

And I've got to tell you, Don, the security inside behind the wall is very tight. I always felt that there were -- the COs were doing their job and then I am shocked that anyone could possibly escape from Dannemora Prison.

LEMON: Were you ever afraid?

MARLOW: Pardon me?

LEMON: Were you ever afraid working in there?

MARLOW: I was never afraid. The security is so tight. There are so many checkpoints to go in and there are so many guards on duty as well as in the towers behind me and I would never ever imagine that anyone could possibly escape that prison.

LEMON: You said that...

MARLOW: It's definitely maximum security.

LEMON: ... you said that you knew someone who fell in love with an inmate. What happened?

MARLOW: What happened inside the prison it tends to be a different climate especially for women in the prison. Women in the prison can be -- if they are vulnerable, when they go in there, the inmate cannot often try and take advantage of that.

That is why you are given very clear instructions and training prior to going into the prison. The inmates are very manipulative. They're very complimentary. They're very -- they try and win you over. And...

LEMON: Did anyone ever try that with you?

MARLOW: ... I saw that happen myself. Certainly. Certainly. We were all very vulnerable. And, however, I was very much on guard to that. I realized that if you fall into the freight of an inmate, then what they call is you can be owned by.

And by that, I mean that they could -- you feel like that you have to continually do favors. And then the ante is upped and upped and upped. So, you certainly don't ever want to become friends with an inmate.

You don't ever want to trust an inmate. But unfortunately, especially for women, l believed that they're taking advantage off, they can be if they don't go in with the mindset that they're in to do a job, that these are very dangerous, dangerous felons and they always have to be mindful of that.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You may not...

MARLOW: And like you said...

LEMON: ... you may not speculate on that. But do you think that that's what happened to Joyce Mitchelll or could have happen with Joyce Mitchell?

[22:15:04] MARLOW: Very possible. Very possible. I've seen it happened before firsthand and I think that that could be very possible. People get themselves in situations that they have a very hard time getting out of and like I said, it can seem rule into a point where it's almost like a quicksand.

LEMON: Yes. Your perspective is really invaluable. Thank you so much, Laura Marlow. I appreciate it. Best of luck to you. OK? Stay safe.

MARLOW: Thank you, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: Yes. We got much more on our breaking news tonight. The growing manhunt for two escaped killers. When we come right back, the man who knows about tracking fugitives, Dog, the bounty hunter. There he is. I can't wait to hear from him right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Our breaking news tonight is the manhunt for the two convicted murders who escape from prison in New York expanding tonight into neighboring Vermont. That's a new development tonight.

Dog, the bounty hunter knows a lot about tracking down people on the run. He is on CMT's "Dog and Beth: On the Hunt." He joins me now. Dog, thanks for coming back. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

DUANE 'DOG' CHAPMAN, CMT'S "DOG AND BETH: ON THE HUNT": Thank you, Don.

LEMON: So, you know, the hunt started in Dannemora, then 35 miles south to Willsboro, now Vermont. Do police have any idea you think where these guys are? CHAPMAN: Well, you know, they've got to search. Do you remember when

the Boston bombers, they found the one bomber kid hiding in the boat because they found it with lights?

[22:20:03] LEMON: Right.

CHAPMAN: Number one.

LEMON: The heat seeking.

CHAPMAN: If you and I were running, you know, the heat seeking. So, that's what they'll do. So, let's pretend like you and I are the fugitives out there. Number one, we both know we wouldn't do anything during the daylight. We would bunker under something metal so the heat seeker couldn't see us.

Number two, of course, then we would move around only at night. We would need a gun and some food. So, we'd have to find a shelter, an empty cabin, blah, blah, blah.

The main thing about this, I was wondering, do they -- you know, how he left a sticky note on the manhole, do they get that sticky note in prison? Did he take a pen with him, a writing pen all the way to the point of escaping and then stop and make a note, or did someone have that? That really bothered me.

LEMON: Why is that?

CHAPMAN: Did she pick -- well, you know, did someone picked them up? If someone picked them up, this is a waste of taxpayer money, they're gone. If someone didn't pick them up, then, you know, they are on the right track and they're in this area for absolutely sure.

But I think the investigation had to go way back to this allege prison guard and find out, you know, I read that her family says, that she would never do that. You got to read somewhere else that she's now admitted that she was supposed to pick them up. So, I think that's the main investigation...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Our reporting is not -- our reporting is that she was supposed to pick them up and she did not. But she got cold feet and didn't do it. That's the reporting of CNN. So, if she didn't do that and I think you and I talked about that last night. And that changed your whole all-game plan. But if she, you know, if that was never the plan, then that also changes everything as well.

CHAPMAN: Right. Exactly right. So, we need to get to the bottom of that. So, if she was supposed to pick them up it sounds like, it could be that -- well, I don't want to blame a prison guard for that. But let's say something that -- let's do one thing in America now, no girls in men's prison. And no men in women's prison. OK.

If you're a woman, you're going to go to apply for a job for a man's prison, duh, so let's stop all of that and we won't have this ever again. But, if she was supposed to pick them up and didn't, they're right there. There was nowhere to go. They're stuck, OK. All the elements in the food, you know, they're on the right track.

LEMON: Yes.

CHAPMAN: If someone did pick them up, then of course, they're, you know, next go Canada. They're history.

LEMON: An, Dog, I do...

CHAPMAN: But...

LEMON: ... but, Dog, I do have to say that she's a prison worker. She's not a guard, but she works as an employee inside the prison. They got to be desperate though, these guys. As you mentioned, they've got to find food, they've got to find water, so how are they surviving in the woods? And as you say, they're not moving around at night. How are they surviving if they are indeed, in the woods?

CHAPMAN: Well, you know, you watch all the survival shows, right?

LEMON: Yes.

CHAPMAN: I mean, some of them are even naked. You -- there are stuff you can eat and live when you're on the run like that. As long as the climate, you know, it's not too cold. So, they can bunker down during the day and hide, and then at night they can move.

But, you're right. They're looking for a house, a gun, some food and shelter. So, you know, they've got to find a car. Remember the ex L.A. sheriff that went bad and they found him there in a kind of situation like this...

LEMON: Yes.

CHAPMAN: ... they burned him out stuff like that. So, I mean, that's what they'll do as go, you know, door to door find a spot. A lot of the people up in that area have dogs, you know, not necessarily blood hounds but protection dogs, you can hear them barking.

So, I would guess that all the cops are very silent at night, of course they have their mild moods and their bloodhounds and they're waiting. I think dogs barking, you know, stuff like that, this is exciting as heck.

I mean, this is a real -- we're going to start a show in a couple months, Don, called "The Dirty Dozen." And it's the 12 guys that I went around the country and trained bounty hunters for the past three years. I picked 12 the best.

And the "Dirty Dozen," we're going to go state-to-state catching the worst. I would love to start my show off right now the pilot show, the "Dirty Dozen" on these two guys.

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Yes. Well, you better get to it if you're going to do that you better get to it. Because there are lot of people out looking and you know what, that was a very subtle plug for your show that you threw in there and I let you get away with it.

CHAPMAN: No. I didn't mean to do it like that, brother, I waited until the very last.

LEMON: Yes.

CHAPMAN: But, you know, you're excited sitting here. I'm excited -- everyay I wake up and you're still telling me they're not caught it makes me want to go and step closer to it. This is my forte. This is my game.

LEMON: Yes.

CHAPMAN: You know, they don't catch you by next week. We love to get on the plane all me.

LEMON: Yes. You're excited. I'm not excited. This is what you do, but I'm excited to, you know, if they catch them.

CHAPMAN: Well, you should ride along with me. Hey, brother, you should come along with me.

LEMON: Yes.

CHAPMAN: Don, let's do a little ride alone.

LEMON: That's little dangerous for me. Thank you, though, Dog. Dog, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

CHAPMAN: OK.

LEMON: We'll see you next time. Thank you.

[22:25:00] More of our breaking news coverage. Manhunt for two escaped killers. And coming up, what is it like to live behind bars at the maximum security prison in Dannemora, New York. I'm going to ask a former inmate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back now with our breaking news. The manhunt for two escaped killers expands into Vermont. So, joining me now, you want to listen to this conversation as Chris Swecker, former assistant director of the FBI who led the team that Eric Rudolph, the man who bombed the Atlanta Olympics in 1996.

Also Rory Anderson, he's a former inmate at the Clinton Correctional Facility. I'll tell you want to listen to this. He's now a senior case manager at Fortune Society and Xavier Amador is a forensic psychologist at the LEAP Institute.

So, we assembled three great experts. First to Chris, you have been with us every night since this story began. Are you surprised that they really haven't caught -- they haven't caught these guys yet?

CHRIS SWECKER, FBI FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: I'm a little bit surprise. I mean, I think the assumption is he's still -- they are on foot. And I think their best leads are still down in Willsboro. I think this Vermont thing is little bit of a red hearing.

[22:30:01] But I thought that they would have them by now, but you look at the frame situation that took almost 45 days.

LEMON: Yes. You said that Joyce Mitchell saved her own life. Why do you say that?

SWECKER: I don't think they would have had any use for her after they drained her ATM card and got the ride to where they needed to go. She would have excess baggage at that point. These people look at -- they look at people as objects and I just don't think they would have kept, they would have killed her.

LEMON: Yes. And people here on the set are shaking their heads in agreement with you. Rory, to you, what it's like in Clinton?

RORY ANDERSON, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY FORMER INMATE: Well, Clinton, first of all is one of the most formidable prisons in New York State being a max state prison. And that wall when you see it so high so long, here comes some something that you just think is it's impossible to get around.

LEMON: And when you heard that two people got out of there?

ANDERSON: I was very surprised to hear that.

LEMON: why?

ANDERSON: Well, I think the fact that we're talking about cutting through metal, the fact that they have this elaborate plan and had the opportunity to do this at somewhere where the security is so tight.

LEMON: And you were for couple of years. Two and a half years. Is there a lot of corruption there? Is there a lot of contraband?

ANDERSON: Well, yes. I'm not -- stayed there for everything. But I would say that the overall piece to do something like this such an elaborate plan, I couldn't see it happening.

LEMON: How -- wouldn't you hear power tools?

ANDERSON: Yes, you would normally hear something like that. But I'm saying, for me I think that if something was like to take like would still happen say, you know, on the block, it would be, you know, turn off the radio, there's a lot of noise going on, people playing chess, things are going on that you could possibly hear something going on there.

LEMON: So, you think that this happened during the day...

ANDERSON: Yes. LEMON: ... and not necessarily at night?

ANDERSON: Yes.

LEMON: So, what do they do? The final -- they did -- they finished it during the day and then just did the escape at night when no almost...

(CROSSTALK)

ANDERSON: Once they were gone, right. After the final check, bed check came through, the guard walks around then he goes back and sits down somewhere, time to go.

LEMON: Yes. What's it like in the honor block. You said you told me, you never made it to the honor block but you know all of it.

ANDERSON: I mean, on most honor block is that, you have more freedoms to interact with other people, to sit and talk, play chess, talk, watch television.

LEMON: Interact with staff and other prisoners, right?

ANDERSON: Yes, because they're walking around at the same time.

LEMON: Yes. And then, so, it's easy for if you want to co-opt someone.

ANDERSON: If you're capable of it, yes. It's possible to work on them.

LEMON: Yes.

ANDERSON: On a daily basis because that's their post, they're there every day.

LEMON: Is this an odd relationship between -- doctor, between prison workers and prisoners?

XAVIER AMADOR, LEAP INSTITUTE FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: No. It's not, I mean, even in Department of Justice study from 2013 found that across the United States 7 percent of inmates report having sexual relations with person -- not just correction officers, but prison staff. You know, what happens when you're working in a prison and I've been an easily 18, 19 different state prison...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: When I ask you when if it is an odd relationship I meant that isn't that relationship for prisoners to be that close when you're in this honor block or honor unit?

AMADOR: No, not at all.

LEMON: Not at all. And that's how...

AMADOR: Now you're in general population.

LEMON: ... that's how one develops relationship. We don't know if that happened in this case.

AMADOR: Right.

LEMON: But we have seen studies or in fact, show that inmates have relationships.

AMADOR: Right. Well, and in fact, when you're training corrections officers one of the things that we train correction officers to do is know your boundaries but don't be afraid to show the inmate respect. Respect for their humanity. You give them respect to you. You get respect in return.

And that can blur the boundaries especially if it's going on for years. I don't know how many years she worked with this -- with Matt or with both men. But that can blur boundaries especially if you're dealing with somebody who is trying to co-opt you, trying to get something from you.

LEMON: Chris, do you believe that, is that your sense that this woman was manipulated?

SWECKER: Yes, I think so. I mean, she was, you know, I know I take the position that prison guards themselves are paid way too low and that makes them easy to compromise. She was one of the higher paid employees in the place. So, this would have been all about charm and guile and just winning her over in some fashion.

LEMON: Rory, you've seen it. Tell us about it.

ANDERSON: Yes. Well, it starts with something simple like a stick of gum, you know, she's chewing gum you want to pass and you ask her and she might say, it's only a piece of gum.

AMADOR: But she's breaking the rules.

ANDERSON: That's right. It starts there.

(CROSSTALK)

AMADOR: Just up over the bathroom.

LEMON: And then what happened is there grooming process that happens after that?

ANDERSON: Oh, it's just a matter of time working on -- working overtime to compliment her letting her know how good she looks, how well she's doing. This might be someone that doesn't have the most highest self-esteem. So, these are facts that just someone can work on, psychologically to let them know that, you know, how good they are looking.

LEMON: Yes. Wow, thank you. Two and a half years there, unbelievable. Thank you Dr. Amador. Thank you, Chris Swecker, and thank you Rory Anderson. I appreciate all of you joining me here this evening.

[22:35:02] AMADOR: Thank you, Don. LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Why do some women fall in love with dangerous criminals and develop relationships with convicts who will never leave prison?

I want to talk about this phenomenon with film maker Joy Krause. The director of "Serial Killer Groupies: A Love Story." And criminologist Casey Jordan back with us. She's been with us every evening since this story broken. So, I'm glad to have you -- both of you here this evening. Joy...

JOY KRAUSE, "SERIAL KILLER GROUPIES" FILMMAKER: Yes.

LEMON: ... you are so fascinated by these prison relationships that you produced a film about them. What surprised you the most?

KRAUSE: Well, the very first thing that surprised me the most was that someone could actually get married while he was on death row. I had no idea that that was possible.

[22:39:58] And once I found that out and began researching, you know, how popular these guys are in prison, it really blew my mind. And it just continues to fascinate me. And I want to know why women are attracted to these men and pursue these relationships.

LEMON: Interesting. I want to hear from a few women in your documentary. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm single, I have no children. I live a very simple life in an apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been through a lot. I've had a lot of bad relationships. One very bad. And that's what made me strong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My family, they always adored Mark. We've been together over 20 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some women who truly believe in the innocence, in the goodness of the man that they loved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Do they have any particular thing in common?

KRAUSE: Some of them are attracted to the infamy of a serial killer. You know, you get a letter from Charles Manson and, you know, the most popular person at the party. And some people like to be around the danger of it.

There's a term, hybristophilia, which indicates that, you know, being around somebody that's very dangerous can be sexually arousing. So, other people are just very lonely. Some women like to have a long distance pen pal relationship. There are many, many reasons.

LEMON: We've been discussing...

KRAUSE: It just works for...

LEMON: ... it just works for some people. We have been talking about hybristophilia here on CNN on this show with Dr. Casey. And Dr. Casey, I want you to listen to one of the women from the film about her relationship with the man who killed his own family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA WHITE, FIANCEE OF JAIME WILEY: He loved me just the way I was. And then he loved me unconditionally. And I don't think anybody in my family can say that they loved me for who I am and for what I am. And I'll take it when I can get it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It works because I like being alone and he's here and I'm there and we can talk and write and I got my independence and I don't have somebody telling me what to do and how to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, you know, doctor, that part is, I guess, OK. But, again, this person is a notorious killer. They get pen -- letters. I'm sure you've read some of them.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes.

LEMON: So, what's going on here?

JORDAN: She nailed it. I really appreciate that subject's candor. She admits she had a huge void in her life because she never felt love and all of her family's love was conditional. And this man loves her for who she is.

She's very in touch with the fact that he smells her vulnerability and he fills that gap in her life that she's never had fulfilled. So, she enters this another world of it doesn't matter what he's done in the past. He's fulfilling my needs now.

But this is the ultimate and safe relationships particularly for women who have been abused or neglected growing up, particularly sexually abused. Because they get to be in love with them, pen pals with them, they can even marry them in prison but they don't have to have physical contact or sex with them.

So, it's the ultimate fantasy of romance without any risk. And they feel special, they feel adored and for his part he's getting his emotional needs met and sometimes getting money put in his commentary and some of them even get conjugal.

LEMON: Yes.

JORDAN: So, there's a lot of give and take. I think the real question is, why are 90 percent of this hybristophilia is women? And why do they have this huge need that only a violent prisoner can fill?

LEMON: And he's not going anywhere.

JORDAN: He's not going anywhere.

LEMON: So, that's peace of mind.

JORDAN: It's the ultimate in safety.

LEMON: Joy, there was one women in your film who was involved with the hillside strangler and then something really terrible happened.

KRAUSE: That's Veronica Campton.

LEMON: Yes.

KRAUSE: And Veronica when she was about 20 years old met Kent Beyanke, the hillside strangler while he was in Bellingham Jail before his trial. And she thought that he could help her with a screenplay she had written and, you know, suckered into, manipulated by him and ended up doing a copycat -- attempted a copycat murder.

LEMON: Unbelievable.

KRAUSE: To try to prove that they have the wrong man.

LEMON: Yes.

KRAUSE: And she was caught ended up serving 22 years in prison for that crime.

LEMON: More and more edible kick discussing this more. It is fascinating. Thanks to both of you.

KRAUSE: Thank you.

LEMON: When we come right back, comedian Colin Quinn he says he's got the answers to America's race problem. We'll see.

[22:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: If you watch this show, we do, sure. All the time. We talk a lot about race on the show and a lot about what people think that they have all the answers sometimes to the racial questions.

But joining me now is Colin Quinn. He's the author of "The Coloring Book of A Comedian Solves Race Relations in America," and he says that he has some of the answer. OK. So, let's solve some of this stuff.

COLIN QUINN, COMEDIAN & AUTHOR: OK.

LEMON: Al right. And let me start off by saying I hate political correctness.

QUINN: Yes. LEMON: I don't think you get anything accomplished.

QUINN: You don't. It's almost a form of a racial kind of a...

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: ... you know, it's sort of like pandering in a weird way.

LEMON: It is, no, not in a weird way, it is pandering.

QUINN: Yes.

LEMON: Because you don't learn anything.

QUINN: Yes. And you take a look. You can't talk to people like that. They can't take it.

LEMON: Right. And you have to allow people leeway to make mistakes.

QUINN: Yes.

LEMON: Otherwise...

QUINN: That solves the problem.

LEMON: ... you're stuck in the same thing. And I watched other outfits and people pander to them all the time. It's like a broken record. Yes. OK.

QUINN: And...

LEMON: Go ahead, go ahead.

QUINN: ... and there's almost like a feeling that people are being watched. So a lot of people in the news in the media in general, are now playing to the people whether be Twitter or whether that they follow them and go, hey, listen, you're off the message with that a little bit. They say it as a positive thing but then they're like writing for other people.

LEMON: All right. So, let's talk about some of the stuff in the news.

QUINN: OK.

LEMON: All right. So, some people look at this video. This is video of the pool party it's gone viral and they see it as a racial internet, others don't. What do you think?

QUINN: I see it as this guy is more of like a super cop. One of those - there's always the one guy that's too enthusiastic to be a cop. And, you know, the stuff drop and roll.

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: You know what I mean?

LEMON: Why is he only pulling his gun on the black kids what do you think?

QUINN: Where are the white kids? I didn't see any white kids there. The white kids are the pool boy?

LEMON: The white kid is the one swimming there.

QUINN: The white kids are in the pool.

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: Swimming. No, I'm kidding.

[22:50:02] LEMON: But here's a thing about that. Here's the thing about that.

QUINN: Yes.

LEMON: Because you can't -- there is -- you can't hold two thoughts in your mind.

QUINN: Right.

LEMON: You can say that this guy maybe has an issue with black people, I don't know.

QUINN: Right.

LEMON: But also you can say, maybe those kids should comply so that they don't get thrown on the ground and get beaten up.

QUINN: And that's the problem today you can't even contradict -- there's no such thing as contradictory or nuance types of things like that.

LEMON: All right.

QUINN: You're either on this side or that side of everything. You just hit the nail on the head. Do you understand?

LEMON: Do you think that the officer would have treated a group of white kids the same way?

QUINN: I think he might not have felt as threatened if it was white kids. So, maybe he wouldn't have. I don't think, put it this way. I don't think he treated the kids like that because they were black except for the act. I don't think he treated them like he wanted to arrest because they're black. But I think he might have felt like jumpy because these kids are coming behind -- rolling up behind him.

LEMON: Right.

QUINN: So, I think there might have been an added, hyper thing to it.

LEMON: And there are black people in the neighborhood who feel the same way that you do. They don't think that it was a racial issue. They think that there was a party that get out of control. OK. So, listen, you have a one-man show coming up. It's directed by Jerry Seinfeld. Lately he's made these comments about political correctness and about college campuses.

QUINN: Yes.

LEMON: I want you to listen to this. This is on set in my show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERRY SEINFELD, COMEDIAN: I do this joke about the way people need that -- justify their cell phone. I need to have it with me because people are so important.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

SEINFELD: Well, they don't seem very important the way you scroll through them like a gay French king. You know, it's the -- I could imagine a time, and this is a serious thing. I could imagine a time that people say, well, that's offensive to suggest that a gay person moves their hands in a flourishing motion and you now need to apologize. I mean, there's a creepy piece thing out there that really bothers me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, what do you think, Colin?

QUINN: He did not say that.

LEMON: It's funny though, I mean, it get over yourself.

QUINN: Right.

LEMON: But I am surprised. Are you surprised that college campuses will not allow people to come speak like Bill Maher because they don't want to hear what they have to say? That's what we're supposed to do in college. Let's debate back and forth.

QUINN: I know.

LEMON: People who have different ideas.

QUINN: I know. It's become a very...

LEMON: Do you think he's right?

QUINN: No. It's been like that for 20 years. Bill is right. I mean, it's been like that since the '90s. And it just keep getting more and more rigid as far as more -- now it's become more of a thing where people like, I felt personally violated. You can't even tell somebody, no, you didn't feel that way.

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: So, it's not really a where people just say, I felt unsafe.

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: By those remorse and certainly around.

LEMON: Did you hear what Bob Costa said about Caitlyn? He said, Caitlyn should not get this SP Award. That's award that's being given to -- it should be someone who's closer to sports now. They're doing it just because and his people are saying, I can't believe he said that he's politically incorrect.

QUINN: I didn't know Caitlyn is getting SP Award.

LEMON: He's getting an award. Yes. For...

QUINN: For inspiration?

LEMON: Yes. And for being a trail blazer.

QUINN: For state?

LEMON: Yes.

QUINN: Well, he should be for staying power at the Kardashians. I already drop off the face to the air to crack up; I've done a couple of years.

LEMON: All right. So, here's a book, right? You've got the book right here.

QUINN: That's it.

LEMON: That's your coloring book. And then also, you have a new one- man place called Colin Quinn, the New York Stories directed by Jerry Seinfeld. As we said, it opens on July 9th at the Cherry Lane Theater right here in New York City. Are you coming back?

QUINN: Jerry is going to be mincing around the state in that one as you can imagine.

LEMON: I know. And flipping through his...

(CROSSTALK)

QUINN: He's the director. He'll be like, well.

LEMON: Yes. Will you come back?

QUINN: I love to. Yes.

LEMON: Hope you come back.

QUINN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

QUINN: It's really great. LEMON: Don't be PC. The CNN original series "THE SEVENTIES" premiers tomorrow night at 9. But tonight, I'm paying to some of the '70s biggest icons, the stars of Sesame Street. But first, here's your '70s minute.

[22:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Well, this summer CNN takes you back to "THE SEVENTIES" and one of my personal favorite memories of the decade is Sesame Street. So, as pretty excited when I got the chance to sit down with Elmo and Abby Cadabby. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You know, Abby, I'm an old man.

ABBY CADABBY: Yes, I know.

ELMO: How old are you?

LEMON: And I've been watching Sesame Street since the '70s. Really since this, you know...

ABBY CADABBY: OK. So, before...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Very early on.

ABBY CADABBY: That's right.

LEMON: So, you weren't there -- are you originally from Sesame Street?

ABBY CADABBY: I'm from fairy side gardens in Queens.

LEMON: So, when did you move?

ABBY CADABBY: I have been on since we did a long...

ELMO: It feels like you've been here for a long, long time.

ABBY CADABBY: Yes. And we lose here because there are such good schools here really, really good community environment...

ELMO: Good food.

LEMON: I don't know if you were happy that day, but I read on your Facebook page, Elmo, that you were getting a vaccination, you were singing.

ELMO: That's right.

LEMON: What -- you have a vaccination song, what's going on here?

ELMO: Yes. Elmo had a vaccination and to sort of take his mind off of it, Elmo sang a song. LEMON: Right. And what was the song?

ELMO: A player's going to play, play, play and a hater's going to hate. Shake it off. Shake it off.

[23:00:00] ABBY CADABBY: And then when they happen, they just stuck the vaccination.

ELMO: Elmo was completely oblivious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Of all of my Sesame Street stories and interviews, go to our CNN TONIGHT Facebook page. That's it for us tonight. Thanks for watching.

"AC360" starts right now.