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January 6 Panel Votes To Subpoena Trump For Docs & Testimony; Testimony: Trump Knew Election Conspiracies Were Lies Before Infamous Georgia Call; Witness: Trump Told Staffer "I Don't Want People To Know We Lost". Aired 9-10p ET

Aired October 13, 2022 - 21:00   ET




ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Before we go, I want to thank Alexandra Pelosi, and the entire team, at our sister network, HBO, for providing us, with this extraordinary video that you saw, tonight. If you didn't see all of it, or you want to see it again, you can find it at

There is yet more exclusive video, which we'll bring you, tomorrow night, on the program, including a second phone call, between Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Vice President Mike Pence. Also, a serious discussion, among the congressional leadership, about moving the entire election certification process, hundreds of lawmakers, and all, to the secure location, where the leaders were hunkering down. Again, that'll be, tomorrow night, on 360.



Knock! Knock! Knock! Donald Trump, you've been served. That's about to happen, at Mar-a-Lago, presumably, after members of the January 6 House Select Committee voted unanimously, and a touch, theatrically, to subpoena Donald Trump, for testimony and documents.

It's all part of their case that Trump not only tried to overturn democracy, in 2020, with fraud, lies, threats and violence, but that Trump continues to do so.


REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): We are obligated, to seek answers, directly from the man, who set this all in motion. And every American is entitled to those answers. So, we can act now, to protect our Republic.


TAPPER: Today's hearing included never-before-seen video, of congressional leaders, Democrats and Republicans, who had been evacuated, from the Capitol, by law enforcement, to the security of a local army base.

Law enforcement, seeking to protect them from the harm, many of the insurrectionists seemed determined, to cause them, perhaps especially Speaker Nancy Pelosi.




TAPPER: "Nancy! Nancy!" They're shouting in that clip.

Now, you can see Democrats, and Republicans, in this new video, huddled together, working the phones, calling the National Guard, calling the Pentagon, trying to get someone, to stop the violence.


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): They're breaking the law in many different ways. And, quite frankly, much of it at the instigation of the President of the United States. And now, if he could at least somebody--

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Yes, why don't you get the President to tell them to leave the Capitol, Mr. Attorney General, in your law enforcement responsibility? A public statement, they should all leave?


TAPPER: That public statement "They should all leave" would not come for more than three hours, after the first insurrectionists crossed the barriers.

The violence should not have been a surprise, however, to members of the U.S. Secret Service, who we learned, today, had been warned, more than 10 days before that the insurrection was coming, including this tip, passed on, from the FBI, to the Secret Service, detailed today, by committee member, Adam Schiff.


REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The source went on to say, "Their plan is to literally kill people. Please, please take this tip seriously and investigate further."


TAPPER: And that was hardly the only warning we learned today that Secret Service agents were reporting, people, in the crowds, likely had weapons. Reporting that, more than 30 minutes before President Trump took the stage, at the Ellipse. But regardless, the rally went on, even though people had weapons.

We know these rioters were angry, incited by months of Trump and his allies' lies, about a stolen election. And in evidence, presented today, we saw that Trump campaign aide, Jason Miller bragged to then-White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows that he, quote, "Got the base fired up," unquote.

Miller included a link to a pro-Trump website, underneath which individuals had posted comments, about their plans, for January 6, comments like these.


SCHIFF: "Gallows don't require electricity."

"If the filthy commie maggots try to push their fraud through, there will be hell to pay."

"Our lawmakers in Congress can leave one of two ways. One, in a body bag. Two, after rightfully certifying Trump, the winner."


TAPPER: Jason Miller told the committee, he did not realize those comments were on the link that he sent Meadows.

But even if that's true, if, I find it impossible to imagine that anyone, who worked for Trump, by January 6, 2021, was unaware of the potential for violence, especially among a base that was fired up.


Because even before Trump, ran for office, he loved, he embraced the imagery of violence and brutality, suggesting in 1989 that five Black men, the so-called Central Park Five, be given the death penalty. He continued to our argue that even after the Central Park Five had been freed, and exonerated, years later.

Trump, of course, jumped into the faux violence of pro wrestling.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Any guy that can do a body-slam, he's my guy.



TAPPER: But, as a presidential candidate, Trump clearly relished the idea of real violence, instigating his supporters, repeatedly, to commit violence, against protesters, who hated Trump.


TRUMP: Knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK?


TRUMP: Just knock the hell.


TRUMP: I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees, I promise. I promise.


TAPPER: It was like that almost every rally, it seems. In 2016, the violence, at his rallies, got so bad, one Sunday, I found myself, basically pleading with Donald Trump, to stop it.


TAPPER: You are not taking down the temperature. You are, in the views of many of your fellow Republicans, making things worse, inciting, encouraging violence. And you're a leader, sir.

TRUMP: My fellow Republicans--

TAPPER: You're the frontrunner of the Republican Party.

TRUMP: Excuse me? Excuse me? My fellow Republicans are running against me. They are losing big league.


TAPPER: Not really the point, I was trying to make! And the violence continued. So, I ask him about it, again, at a presidential debate, in Miami, March 2016.


TAPPER: Do you believe that you've done anything, to create a tone, where this kind of violence would be encouraged?

TRUMP: I hope not. I truly hope not.


TAPPER: You can judge for yourself how much he truly hoped not!

After months of election lies, fast forward to December 2020, a Republican election official, in Georgia, also found himself, pleading with Donald Trump, to stop.


GABRIEL STERLING, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE: Someone's going to get hurt. Someone's going to get shot. Someone's going to get killed.


TAPPER: On January 6th, all of that happened. Someone got hurt. Someone got shot. Someone got killed. And what was Donald Trump doing, during that period?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were in the dining room in these discussions, was the violence at the Capitol visible on the screen? On the television?


MOLLY MICHAEL, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT: It's my understanding, he was watching television.

KEITH KELLOGG, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR TO VP PENCE: I think they were - everybody was watching the TV.


TAPPER: "Watching TV! Watching TV!" Moments such as this one.




TAPPER: "Hang Mike Pence!" Testimony suggests that Trump told aides that perhaps the mob was right, that Pence should be hanged.

And now, we must confront the case being made, by the committee that the violence, on January 6, was not just an unfortunate happenstance. That, it was part of the plan that it is now a Trump tactic.


REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): There are a lot of members of Congress that I think voted against impeachment, because they were scared, for their family, and for themselves. What does that mean? It means threats of violence worked.


TAPPER: A recent New York Times study suggests that in the five years, after Trump was elected, quote, "The number of recorded threats against members of Congress increased more than 10-fold," against Democrats and Republicans.

And it's not just members of Congress. Since June of last year, the FBI's new Elections Threat Task Force has received more than 1,000 reports, of threats, against election workers.

Election workers, the people, many of them, over the age of 60, paid little or nothing, to make sure you get to exercise your right to vote, the sweet old grandmas that hand you a, "I Voted" sticker afterward?

For doing their part to uphold democracy, they get phone calls, like this one.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will (BLEEP) take you out. (BLEEP) your family. (BLEEP) your life. Watch your (BLEEP) back.


TAPPER: Where are these threats taking place? Well, the bulk of them are in just these seven states. Arizona, Georgia, Colorado, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Nevada, and Wisconsin. All of those states, all seven battleground states that Trump lost to Biden, six of them, states where Trump and his allies tried to create slates of fraudulent electors, to throw out the legitimate votes, cast in 2020.

I want to introduce you to Claire Woodall-Vogg. She's the Executive Director of Elections, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

And among the dozens and dozens and dozens of threatening messages she received? A few of them stick out to her.


CLAIRE WOODALL-VOGG, MILWAUKEE ELECTION COMMISSION EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: A lot of the emails called me a cunt, a bitch, a whore.

I deserve to go before a firing squad.


All because I did my job and made sure that all of the City of Milwaukee's ballots were counted.


TAPPER: She now reasonably thinks that she's a target for violence.


WOODALL-VOGG: It's frightening, because there are crazy people out there. And while it might just be them blowing off steam, it's - it's clear that they believe it.

And, I think, only someone, who truly believed it, would act on it.


TAPPER: Some of these unhinged people have regrettably acted on it.

After the FBI seized classified documents that Trump had improperly taken to Mar-a-Lago, an armed man, tried to storm the FBI office, in Cincinnati, Ohio, in August. He had reportedly posted on social media, the same day, encouraging others to prepare for war. This is the level of insanity!

And we're still 26 days away from the midterm elections. What happens after November 8, if the outcome is not what some of these fringe voters hoped for?


STEVE SLATON, TRUMP SUPPORTER: If the Republicans don't win, in 2022, if it gets stolen again? The confidence in the whole entire system is just going to erode America. And then, it leads to trouble. It could lead to Civil War.

And they'll also start on a small scale, it'd be like town against town, communities, like that, state against the state.

I don't want to see it. I know what war is. But it becomes? We'll fight.


TAPPER: "Town against town, state against state," it's not just guys, hawking Trump T-shirts, talking about actual bloodshed. Americans killing Americans, because a bunch of them believe these deranged lies, about the election.

We knew that in the weeks, after Trump lost the election, retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, Donald Trump's first National Security Adviser, met with Trump, and talked about Trump, giving an order, to seize voting machines.

And that's not where Flynn's unhinged ideas ended.




FLYNN: Governor can declare war, OK?


FLYNN: And we - we're going to probably - we're going to probably see that.


TAPPER: It's a deranged virus. And it's going viral, from the deep corners, of the dark web, onto mainstream sites, such as Twitter, where experts tell CNN, they've seen a surge of posts, about Civil War, in recent weeks.

After the Mar-a-Lago search, one post, in a Trump online forum, stated, "I'm just going to say it. [Attorney General Merrick] Garland needs to be assassinated. Simple as that." Another said, quote, "Kill all Feds."

And all of this is probably why, in a recent poll, 64 percent of you said you expect to see an increase in political violence, in the U.S., over the next few years. You're right to have those fears. At least, I hope they're just fears and not desires. I mean, some polling suggests Americans are more willing than ever before, to support violence, as a legitimate way, to further one's political goals.

According to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, U.S. levels are fast-approaching support for political violence, the levels seen in Northern Ireland, in 1973, during that country's most violent period, of political violence, between Catholics and Protestants.

I'd love to tell you, there's no reason to be worried. But after today, after all these hearings, it is clearer than ever, that the threat is real, the danger remains, and that January 6, might someday soon end up, looking like a dress rehearsal.

So, let's go inside the decision, to subpoena Donald Trump, with one of the Republicans, who voted "Aye," in his first interview, since today's hearing. Will this subpoena lead anywhere? Or did it just feel good, for the panel, to say it out loud? And what about a criminal referral to the Justice Department?

Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger, joins us next.



TAPPER: As part of its closing argument, the January 6 Select House committee drew a sharp contrast, today, between the action that congressional leaders, took, behind-the-scenes, in the midst of the Capitol riot chaos, and Donald Trump, who sat watching the violent unfold, for 187 minutes, resisting all the entreaties, all the pleas that he call the crowd, the mob, to stop.

We showed you what the committee aired today, previously unseen footage, from Fort McNair, a D.C. area Army post, where Speaker Pelosi, and Senate leader, Schumer, and others, were working the phones, trying to get soldiers, trying to get National Guardsmen and women, to rush to the Capitol, to stop the violence and bloodshed.

Here's a closer look at those moments.


SCHUMER: OK. Well D.C. has requested the National Guard, and it's been denied by DOD. I'd like to know a good goddamn reason why it's been denied. Apologize for being so (ph).


SCHUMER: This cannot be, just we're waiting for so and so. We need them there, now, whoever you got, OK?

REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD): You have, you also have troops - this is Steny Hoyer. Troops at Fort McNair.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, we have a little bit of time, to make that decision.

HOYER: Andrews Air Force Base--


HOYER: --other military bases.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thanks, Paul (ph). Bye.

HOYER: We need active duty, National Guard, all the people who are sworn to protect and defend the Constitution.


TAPPER: Joining us now, is one of the Republican members, on the January 6 committee, Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois.

Congressman, thanks so much for being here.


TAPPER: Tell us why, you think that's significant, that video of Pelosi, and Schumer, and others, trying to get the Capitol, some protection?

KINZINGER: If you're a conspiracy theorist, they've been believing that this was all set-up. Now, I'm sure they're going to say that this is a fake video, or something, now.

But what that shows is in the midst of that chaos, the focus was on how do we defend the Capitol? Yes. How do we get back to work? This is a constitutional imperative that we certify this election. How do we bring enough people in, to take control of the Capitol, again, and do that?


The conspiracy theorists have said, again, we basically invited them in. We wanted this to happen, somehow. It doesn't make sense.

This video showed, today, how intense, really, that battle was, from a congressional leadership perspective, not sitting there, waiting for events to happen, but proactively trying to get this job done.

TAPPER: So, I don't know where McCarthy, and Scalise, and Stefanik, the three House Republican leaders were, during that period. I imagine, they were somewhere safe as well.

But they've all been pushing the idea that Pelosi is somehow to blame, for what happened that she didn't do enough that day. Of course, it's just a way for them to deflect--


TAPPER: --from talking about Trump. But do you see Pelosi right there? KINZINGER: Well, that's the thing - so, Kevin McCarthy, the biggest disappointment of a congressman that I know, not because of what he said, or done, it's because he knows better. He said it, like a week after January 6, he said the truth. And then that like power that stars in your eyes comes out, and he has to become a Speaker!

When I see him talking about that, or I see any Republicans, saying, "The problem is the Capitol wasn't secured enough?" And that's something we're looking at. But that's like blaming somebody, who had a home invasion, because they didn't lock the front door.


KINZINGER: It's insane. And it's a deflection. And the only people that don't see right through that are those that choose not to see right through that, because they don't want to look at January 6 and see the truth.

TAPPER: So, the big action, today, by the committee, was voting, unanimously, to subpoena Donald Trump, for testimony and records. Do you think that he's actually going to testify?

KINZINGER: We'll have to see. I know, he should. The requirement, now, is for him, as a former President, he has the same rules as any American, as you or I. If you're subpoenaed by Congress, you come in and testify.

But I think it's important for us. As we've taken this investigation, we've got as many of the pieces as we can together. We're very clear. There are people that won't come in and talk to us.

We haven't - at the end of this Congress, this committee ends, we've been - this is Donald Trump's doing. And when this even started, I mean, I even - you know, did he not know what was happening, did people around him do this? It is very clear that he knew what he was doing. He wanted to stay in power. And now we want to hear from him.

TAPPER: There was some suggestions, today, at the hearing that some individuals, with the Secret Service, in the U.S. Secret Service, haven't told your committee the truth, about whether or not there were any threats, ahead of the insurrection.

You showed evidence that there were some, passed on by the FBI and others, and also other misrepresentations. Tell us, tell me more about that.

KINZINGER: Look, I don't know what's going on in the Secret Service. There's - whether it's cultural issues, whether it's this desire to maintain secrecy. We know about the text messages that disappeared, despite the preservation requests.

You remember, after Cassidy Hutchinson testified, what she had heard? She wasn't in there. But what she heard about happened in the limo? And you had these anonymous sources, come out, and say, "That has been disputed, in the Secret Service. Tony Ornato, and everybody, will testify." We said, "Great! Come in." Never went in - never came in! They never had. They didn't come in to talk to us.

There are a lot of inconsistencies that we're going to continue to investigate. From things people have said, to evidence that we have gotten? That will be either explored in the future or definitely in the report.

TAPPER: A friend of mine, Steve (ph), says that we, the committee, and also the news media, we're describing this wrong. We shouldn't be calling it, "The attack on democracy." We should be calling it, "An attack on the United States."

Because, I guess, his argument is truly, you attack the Capitol, you attack that democratic process? You are attacking the United States. And if it was anyone else, other than Trump's supporters, maybe we would be calling it that.

KINZINGER: No. I think, you're right. I mean, imagine if this was ISIS, even without, if they did the exact same thing? It'd be an attack on the United States, whether they're citizens or not.

I can see it as both ways. Because, democracy is important to defend, right now.


KINZINGER: One of the things I believe is democracies and, the United States, particularly, we're not defined by our bad days. We're going to have bad days. We're defined by how we come back from those bad days.

That's what we're doing, on the committee, right now. We have to take a full accountability, for what happened, so that my kid, your kids, can come up in a country that can take accountability, for its wrongs, and that can actually give people hope, opportunity and prosperity.

TAPPER: Speaking of your kid, I have no doubt that your kids, someday, will be reading, in the history books, about what you did. And the kids of the Republicans, who know better, who are going along with the lie, will read it too.

It must be kind of lonely, where you are, right now, especially seeing people, fellow veterans, in Congress, fellow Republicans, fellow conservatives. I don't know, I mean, are you still friends with them?

KINZINGER: I mean, we get along, still friends with some. You have to try to put that aside.


But, look, if somebody truly believes all the January 6 conspiracies, I begrudge them less, than my colleagues, who know the truth, and have a position of leadership. One in 700,000 people serve in the job I serve in, like your chances of ever being born, in another life, and doing that again are zero. You have a - you have a responsibility to the Constitution, not to what your district wants you to say, in a time like this. Your district may want you to do one of - you swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States.

And 99 percent of my Republican colleagues are failing every day. I would - for them, I'm sure, they're afraid of what their kids are going to read, in the history books. I'm proud of what my kids are going to read, in the history books. And I guarantee, every one of my colleagues' kids, they're going to believe what we put out there, because it's going to be the truth.

TAPPER: Yes, the truth.

Congressman Adam Kinzinger, Republican of Illinois, thanks so much, for being here. Really appreciate it.


TAPPER: The system held last time. What about next time? Coming up, one of the Republicans, on the state level, praised for helping keep our democracy together, despite Donald Trump, coming at him, with a suitcase full of lies and threats.

Georgia's Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, joins me next.


TAPPER: Donald Trump knew he'd lost the election before he ever even picked up the phone, for this phone call, the sound from which was played, at today's hearing, of the January 6 House committee.



TRUMP: I just want to find 11,780 votes.


TAPPER: Here's what the former acting Deputy Attorney General said, under oath, about what he had told Trump, specifically, about the results, in Georgia, and Trump's conspiracy theories, about the vote, in Georgia, including one whacked-out theory, about a suitcase full of ballots.


RICHARD DONOGHUE, FORMER ACTING DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: With regard to Georgia, we looked at the tape, we interviewed the witnesses. There is no suitcase.

The President kept fixating on this suitcase that supposedly had fraudulent ballots and that the suitcase was rolled out from under the table. And, I said, "No, sir, there is no suitcase."


TAPPER: And yet, here's what Trump said, on the subsequent call, to Georgia officials.


TRUMP: They weren't in an official voter box. They were in what looked to be suitcases or trucks, suitcases.


TAPPER: My next guest is the man, on the other end of the line, Georgia's Republican Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger.

Secretary of State Raffensperger, thanks for joining us.

You and your counsel, both told Trump, on the call that his information, about the election, was wrong. Now, we know, from the hearing today that he knew it was a lie. He had been told it was not true. How does knowing that, change your recollection, or view, of the conversation, in any way?

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, (R) GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I knew that we had the facts on our side. And that's what I told the President, then.

And for the last year and a half, I've been traveling, all over the State of Georgia, just talking to people. People would ask me, "What happened in the election?" So, I just went out, I gave them the facts.

And I talked to everyone. I'd go anywhere, and talk to any group that invited me in it. And so, I just thought people need to have, and hear from the source. And that's what I provided with the facts.

TAPPER: Well, it's so interesting, because Trump initiated a candidate, to run against you, in the primary, Congressman Jody Hice.

But you, and the governor, Brian Kemp, who also Trump had got somebody, to run against him, you guys prevailed, in your Republican primaries, whereas we've seen other Republicans, all over the country, lose in their primaries.

How is it that you were able to do that?

RAFFENSPERGER: Well, number one, I had a tremendous belief, and faith, in just the goodness of my fellow Georgians. And most people are good. And that's what we found out.

But also, if you just calmly, and rationally, talk to people, give them the facts, let them ask questions, then you answer their questions, with some patience and grace? It always works out. And that's how it worked out for me. I just wanted to make sure that people understood. And so, that's what I did. I did that for over a year, just going out, and talking to people, giving them the information. TAPPER: Just last month, Trump was still insisting it was a, quote, "Absolutely perfect phone call." How would you describe that phone call?

RAFFENSPERGER: Well, it's over an hour long. And so, it was, he had kept on bringing up different issues. And I'd respectfully wanted to just give him what the facts were. One, make sure that was fact-based.

Because, at the end of the day, we investigated every single allegation that was made, but we never could really nail people down. First, they said there was 10,000 dead people. There was actually, we found four dead people. They said there was thousands of underage voters. Every single allegation, we went ahead, and we checked out.

And then, I wrote a 10-page letter to Congress. And I wanted to make sure, it was fact-based. And that's what we did, is we gave people the facts. I leaned into the law, and I leaned in, and I stood on the Constitution. And I just wanted to make sure, here are what the facts are. And so, we gave people the truth. And I know for people in my party, it was hard to hear. But I wanted to make sure that we did that respectfully.

TAPPER: The committee focused on the call.

But we know, from CNN's exclusive reporting that the efforts, in Georgia, went far, far beyond that, that the bogus Trump electors, got access to voting systems? Three days after that report, you announced you were replacing that equipment.

How much does the Donald Trump conspiracy theories, how much does that cost the people of Georgia, in terms of money, being spent, to protect the next election?

RAFFENSPERGER: Well, the thing that is so upsetting about election- denier, whether it comes from the 2018 race, we had, or the 2020 race, is it really does disrupt society, it really creates even more social tension than we have that polarizes people.

But, I think, by and large, I think most people are tired of the screaming and hollering. They want people to start getting things done for them. And, I think, as elected leaders, we really are called to be responsible, and make sure that we deal with people, respectfully, and with the facts.

I've actually made a pledge that whatever the results are, in my race, here, this fall, I will accept the results. I will accept the will of the voters. And I would encourage every person that's running for elected office, to make that same pledge, to abide by the results.

Yes, if the race is so close, and you could have a recount, as allowed by state law, where you can do an audit of that race? But after that process have gone through, abide by the results. And then, if you want to run again? Then, come back again.

[21:35:00] But I will abide by the results of the people of Georgia. Their vote is very important. And I want them to know that I'm going to make sure we have honest and fair elections, for everyone.

TAPPER: Early voting, in Georgia, begins Monday. There have been reports of a shortage of poll workers, in some counties.

Is this, do you think, because of the threats of violence, from the President's former supporters? Does this have a role, in the shortage of workers, of people, not willing, to play this important role, in our elections?

RAFFENSPERGER: That could be one of the issues. But also, after COVID, many of the people that, were a little bit older, they stepped out, and they haven't come back. And everyone gets two years older, every time you have an election cycle.

But by and large, most of the counties have enough poll workers. But they don't have any spare. And that's an issue that we've been facing for years.

And I would encourage anyone that think about becoming a poll worker? It's probably too late for this cycle. But it's something that you maybe think about two years from hence. Because, it's great public service. And people need to understand, once you become a poll worker, you understand the process.

And after the election of 2020, so many people didn't understand the process, all the fail-safe, all the checks, checks and double checks, to make sure that we have fair and honest elections, not just in Georgia, but throughout the entire country.

TAPPER: How are you and your wife doing? I know, it was quite an ordeal.

RAFFENSPERGER: We're doing fine. We're looking forward to this election. This has been a long election season for us. And we're looking forward to Election Day. But that's why, I'm still out there, campaigning, talking to people. And then we also have our job, getting ready, for this election.

We're expecting really strong turnout. We had 4 million people, show up, in 2018. We had 5 million, in 2020. We don't know where exactly we'll be here, but we expect it will be strong turnout. There's just a lot of national issues that are weighing on people's minds, right now.

TAPPER: Yes. You got a big governor's race there, and a big Senate race as well.

Secretary Raffensperger, of Georgia, thank you so much. Appreciate your time, sir.


TAPPER: Between the revelations of the hearings, the subpoena, the Supreme Court rejection, it's hard to imagine Donald Trump didn't throw at least some food, at the wall, today!

Maggie Haberman, from the New York Times, will join me. We're going to talk about how Donald Trump, and his loyalists, are reacting to today's horrible news, for Donald Trump. That's next.



TAPPER: Two days, before the 2020 election, the world learned, from Axios' Jonathan Swan that then-President Trump, had a plan, to declare a premature victory, regardless of the election results. But, it turns out Trump had been planning that strategy, since at least July.

Here's Vice President Pence, his top White House lawyer, and one of Trump's closest allies, Steve Bannon, in testimony, played at today's hearing.


GREG JACOB, FORMER COUNSEL TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: Mark had indicated to me that there was a possibility that there would be a declaration of victory within the White House that some might push for. And this is prior to the election results being known.

VOICE OF STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP ADVISER: And what Trump's going to do is just declare victory, right? He's going to declare victory. But that doesn't mean he's the winner. He's just going to say he's the winner.


TAPPER: That revelation is not all that the former President is grappling with, today.

The U.S. Supreme Court rejected Trump's request that they intervene in the Mar-a-Lago documents fight, with the Justice Department.

Donald Trump's new company, is also under scrutiny, by New York's Attorney General.

And Vice President Pence's former Chief of Staff, Marc Short, was seen, testifying, before a grand jury, for the second time.

So, how is Trump-world reacting to all this horrible news for him? Let's bring in the Author of "Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America," New York Times reporter, Maggie Haberman. I should say New York Times' best-selling author, number one best-selling author, Maggie Haberman.

Congratulations, Maggie.


TAPPER: What are you hearing, about how Trump is responding, to all this abysmal news for him that played out today?

HABERMAN: So, a couple of things, Jake. Because, he doesn't tend to process these kinds of legal actions, the way other people might, working backwards. The revelations by the committee, most of his folks are sloughing them off, because they're trying to say these are old news. And it's not surprising.

In terms of the subpoena for him, that is actually one of the things that has animated him. He's been talking to advisers about how, he would consider testifying, if they would air it live, which is also not surprising. It all seems hard to imagine the committee would go for that.

What he is very focused on, right now, is the other investigations that could lead to criminal charges. And that is still where much of his energy is focused.

And for whatever reason, he's very focused on this lawsuit that's coming up, next week, where he has to be deposed, where he's being sued, for defamation, by E. Jean Carroll, a woman who has accused him of rape.

The elements around January 6th? He considers those baked in. Everybody else does not. But he does.

TAPPER: That's interesting. Do you think his lawyers would let him testify, live? I mean, I can't imagine that - I mean, it might feel good for him. But I can't imagine that making him look sane, rational, reasonable. I mean, I don't see any scenario, in which he ends up looking good there.

HABERMAN: I think that it would be - I also don't see a scenario, where he doesn't potentially get himself into a fraud situation, when he's testifying under oath. And I think it would depend on which lawyers he is listening to, Jake. He has different lawyers, in different cases, and he seeks them out for different things. And they are not always on the same page.

TAPPER: Well, right, that's the thing, because he would be under oath. Often, when he testifies under oath, he just ends up saying, "I don't recall! I don't recall! I don't recall!" Because, he's being told by lawyers that he has to do that.


TAPPER: But I don't think he would do that before the committee. I just can't imagine any attorney, although I don't know how he's picking his attorneys, these days. It doesn't seem like he's exactly going to the Harvard Law Review.


TAPPER: So, do you think, I mean, among these lesser attorneys, who are giving him advice these days, do you think somebody would actually tell him, "Go ahead! Do that! That's going to be great!" HABERMAN: At least one of his lawyers was sounding people out about the idea today of him testifying, and agreeing to it, as long as the committee would let him do it live. And so, I certainly don't think they're all shutting him down.


I do think that there are people, who would be concerned about it, for the same reason that his lawyers, when he was being investigated, by Robert Mueller, the Special Counsel, were concerned about him, meeting with Mueller, and testifying, which Trump wanted to, and they did not want him to, for the reasons you just said.

TAPPER: Today, a testimony, from Cassidy Hutchinson, was played that gets specifically to Trump's mindset.

Let's run some of that.


CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: So, he had said something to the effect of, "I don't want people to know we lost, Mark. This is embarrassing. Figure it out. We need to figure it out. I don't want people to know that we lost."


TAPPER: So, that was about the Supreme Court, refusing to hear his some of the crazy lawsuits that were being filed, on his behalf.

And which do you think was fear of embarrassment, one of the motivating factors, behind Donald Trump's refusal, to publicly accept the election results that he just - that was one of his biggest fears, being embarrassed?

HABERMAN: I think that's one of them. Jake.

I think, this is somebody, who spent a lifetime, being raised, by a man who, taught him that being a loser is an incredibly fraught thing. "You need to be a killer. You need to win," and that was something that his father got into his head over and over and over again. And then, he surrounded himself with people, who would affirm that. And so, losing an election was not something that he was going to admit.

I will make the point. He said the election that he won, was rigged too, in 2016. This is something he says about elections. I do think a piece of it is about being embarrassed. I think part of it is also just refusing to accept reality, on anyone else's terms, but his own.

TAPPER: You heard us play sound of Greg Jacob, Pence's lawyer, detailing Trump's premeditated plan to declare victory, on Election Night, regardless of what happened. The committee laid out evidence that it started as early as July that, plan.

What does your reporting, say, on this? How long he was planning to just prematurely declare victory, even though he likely lost? HABERMAN: It's similar, Jake. He was telling people, some of his advisers, in July, and I have reporting on this that he was going to raise questions, about the mail-in ballots and suggest - because, remember, all of these rules changed around COVID, in 2020, in terms of how people were allowed to vote. And he was going to say, that this was - this was unfair, or this was wrong, or this was - this was corrupt. And so, he had been talking about this, and working toward this, for a very, very long time.

And even Jonathan Swan, at Axios, reported, as you noted, he was the first to report that in October, Trump had stunned some of his advisers, by just announcing he was going to go up there, on Election Night, and say he won, no matter what. It was clear where this was headed.

TAPPER: Maggie, stick with me. I have more questions for you.

Donald Trump's life is not exactly an open book. But not for lack of trying, on Maggie's part. Is getting inside Donald Trump's head, is that a gift, or is it a curse, for Maggie? Or maybe is it both? We'll talk about that next.



TAPPER: Countless people, countless, have tried to understand Donald Trump. A few have gotten the insight and access that Maggie Haberman has. In her new book, Maggie recounts how, during one of their many interviews, Trump gestured toward her, and told his aides, quote, "I love being with her, she's like my psychiatrist."

Maggie Haberman, is back with me, now.

Well, you don't see yourself that way, as Trump psychiatrist, I assume?

HABERMAN: No. And I don't think he does either, honestly, Jake. I think he said this to flatter. It's the kind of thing that he has said--

TAPPER: Maggie?

HABERMAN: Hello? Jake? Hello?

TAPPER: I can't hear her. But I don't know if it's on my end, or what's going on? Can you hear her? OK. Well, I'm having some sound problems.


TAPPER: We're going to take a very quick break. We'll be right back.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Sorry about the technical problems. Maggie Haberman is back with me now.

Maggie, Trump calling you, his psychiatrist? What was your reaction to that? How do you see yourself?

HABERMAN: I don't think that this was the line that he actually meant, Jake. It's the kind of thing that he, I think, says to intend to flatter. He has used it about any number of other interviewers, or about his Twitter feed, or about his rallies.

The reality is that he treats everybody like they're his psychiatrist. He's working it out, in front of all of us, his staff, his advisers, his rally-goers, his pseudo-friends, and friends, in real-time.

TAPPER: And yet, I have to acknowledge - and I say this, as you know, not only a friend of yours, but an admirer of your reporting and your work ethic. He attacks you, all the time, even though, he obviously wants, and craves your respect, so much.

He says things, like this, about you, at rallies. Let's roll that sound.


TRUMP: Who is with the New York Times? I hope it's not Maggie Haberman, or Parker, because they are not legit.

They don't know me. They don't know me. I haven't seen her, I haven't spoken to her in a year and a half.

Maggie Haberman gets a Pulitzer Prize? She's a third-rate reporter.


TAPPER: I mean, you're a fantastic reporter. And yes, you got the Pulitzer Prize, covering him. What do you make of that? Because, I think, you and I both know, he really wants you to approve of him.

HABERMAN: He wants the New York Times to approve of him. And I just happened to be the person, who covers him, more than other people, at this paper. And I knew him before he was a candidate. So, I think that's part of it. But I really can't overstate how much, his fixation, on the paper, drives this.

TAPPER: Do you think that you have a better understanding of him, now that you've written this book?

And you - and I should note for people, like the book does not start Inauguration Day 2017. It goes back to like his family, his roots, his father, Fred, who, no offense, sounds like a really awful dad to have.

Do you think you understand him better now, having plunged into his background, more, for this book?

HABERMAN: I think there are parts of him that I understand better than before.

But the goal had always been? Because I come from New York, and I've covered New York politics, and aspects of New York's various systems, for a long time? The goal had always been to try to show the animating forces, which I understood before, about the world he came from, and what shaped him, and how he exported that, to Washington, D.C., and to the White House and then, to the Republican Party, and it lives on in our politics. That had been the goal.

And while I felt like I understood it, previously, I have - I think, I have a richer understanding of certain aspects of it, yes.

TAPPER: Well, it's a really fantastic book. Number one on the New York Times Bestseller list. I recommend it to everyone.


TAPPER: Even if you think you already know everything, you want to know about Donald Trump. It's really great.

Congratulations, Maggie. Always good to have you on.

HABERMAN: Jake, thanks so much.

TAPPER: Thank you so much, for joining me, tonight.

You can follow me, on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and the TikTok, @jaketapper.

Tomorrow, we're going to have on, Iranian-born actress, Nazanin Boniadi. She's in the series, "The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power," on Amazon Prime. She's going to be here. She's also an ambassador for Amnesty International.

And she's going to join me, after a meeting, tomorrow, with Vice President Harris, to discuss the human rights protests, in Iran, one of the most important developments of the year. That's tomorrow, at 9 PM Eastern. Please join us.

Our coverage continues now with the fantastic, Laura Coates, the amazing, Alisyn Camerota.

Laura Coates? Alisyn Camerota? Coates and Camerota, how are you guys doing?