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CNN Tonight
Debates Heats Up Prior To Midterm Elections; Former President Sounds Braggadocios; Beauty From Formula Comes With A Price; Meghan Markle Claims To Be Objectified; James Corden Can Now Go Back To Balthazar. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 18, 2022 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And thank you so much for joining us tonight. You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and the TikTok at Jake Tapper. Our coverage now continues with the glorious Laura Coates and the radiant Alisyn Camerota. Hey, Laura. Hey, Alisyn.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: You're getting better by the day. Glorious.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: This is never going to get old.
COATES: Not.
CAMEROTA: This stick is never going to get --
TAPPER: Well.
CAMEROTA: We were wondering if you were going to run out of superlatives, but no, you're not.
TAPPER: No. Impossible. Impossible.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: The beauty of a Thesaurus.
CAMEROTA: Jocular, Jake. Fantastic. Thanks.
COATES: Jocular, Jake.
CAMEROTA: That's --
TAPPER: Have a great night.
COATES: I need boots. Good night. Look, while we're here we're going to keep the conversation going here on CNN TONIGHT, everyone.
Good evening. I'm Laura Coates.
CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. With the midterms just 21 days away things are getting hot in Florida
tonight in the first and only debate between Marco Rubio and Val Demings. So, we'll play you some portions.
COATES: Plus, never before heard until now, anyway, tapes of the then president talking to Bob Woodward.
CAMEROTA: So, you're about to hear his real thoughts on Vladimir Putin and Russia and his own impeachment. And we also have brand-new audio from Trump's inner circle, meaning his son-in-law, Jared.
COATES: Remember, we know it. We never heard his voice. But remember --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: And we're about to, yes.
COATES: -- there was a whole thing about and what he sounds like.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
COATES: We're going to hear it again.
CAMEROTA: We'll find out tonight.
COATES: This is how we've been devolving this story and the story that everyone is talking about tonight as well. Hair straightening link to higher rates of uterine cancer and black women may be more affected.
So, is the pressure to look a certain way now affecting our health? I mean, the idea of beauty standards and how it's judged. This story to me is really so relevant. We need to elevate it even more.
I mean, the idea that something you're putting on your body in a treatment is causing cancer to the extent of even doubling for black women.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
COATES: Unbelievable.
CAMEROTA: And believe me, white women get their hair straightened a lot too.
COATES: Yes.
CAMEROTA: I mean, it's sobering for all of us because I guess I should have known that formaldehyde is bad for you. But I didn't know that it had such a direct link to uterine cancer.
COATES: I mean, that and just you think about all the different impacts that we're talking about. We're going to cover it more tonight and we're in depth, but I just think it's such an important story that it can't get lost in the shuffle. So, we're going to cover it here. I'm glad. We're also going to a lot talk about tonight, so kick off for our midterms any elections happening.
Here with us is Brendan Buck, a former top aide to Paul Ryan and John Boehner, also CNN political commentator. Ashley Allison and chief political correspondent Dana Bash.
What a panel. Glad they're all here tonight.
CAMEROTA: Fantastic guys. Great being here with you guys. So, OK. Should we play something from the Val Demings, Marco Rubio?
COATES: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Let's talk about.
BRENDAN BUCK, FORMER TOP AIDE TO PAUL RYAN & JOHN BOEHNER: Yes.
CAMEROTA: They -- they dove right into it and they talk about abortion. So, let's talk about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I'm a hundred percent pro-life because I -- not because I want to deny anyone their rights, but because I believe that innocent human life is worthy of the protection of our laws.
That said, every bill I've ever sponsored on abortion, every bill I've ever voted for has exceptions. Every one of them does, because that's what can pass, and that's what the majority of people support.
The extremist on abortion in this campaign is Congresswoman Demings. She supports no restrictions, no limitations of any kind.
REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL): Senator, how gullible do you really think Florida voters are? Number one, you have been clear that you support no exceptions, even including rape and incest. Now, as a police detective who investigated cases of rape and incest, no, Senator, I don't think it's OK for a 10-year-old girl to be raped and have to carry the seed of her rapist.
No, I don't think it's OK for you to make decisions for women and girls as a senator. I think those decisions are made between the woman, her family, her daughter, and her faith. And to sit over or to stand over there and say that I support, don't support abortions up to the time of birth. It's just a lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, first of all, I mean, she leaned right into the whole police chops of this, but also, did you happen to catch what Rubio said? It's what can pass. I mean, for many voters, you think to yourself, I mean, it's not you have to have pie in the sky ideals, but is the standard only pursue that which can be accomplished? Is that really where we are?
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's also interesting he started by saying, I'm a hundred percent pro-life, but I vote for things that can just pass. And I think there's a contradiction there.
It is unfortunate that people are not, are playing this flip flop game and that Val Demings came in strong, hot. She gets it on multiple levels, law enforcement, as a woman, as someone who has investigated these crimes and really told a story that we know is personal.
[22:05:07]
And that, it draws a contrast of like, who do you really want leading in this moment?
CAMEROTA: And also, who do you trust? I mean, she also fact checked him --
ALLISON: Yes.
CAMEROTA: -- down because he said, every bill I've ever voted for has acceptance, but he just co-sponsored one with Senator -- the one with Senator Graham. It doesn't make an exception for rape or incest. And she called that out. I mean, I'm not sure what he's, I guess he's trying to thread the needle and make people think that it has more exceptions than it does.
COATES: She even called the voters how gullible do you think they are --
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COATES: -- based on that point.
BASH: Right. And also, fact check, reality check. That's not going to pass now. Probably not in the near future because even if Republicans do take the Senate, it will be by a seat, a couple of seats, not the 60 votes needed to break a filibuster. And that's what would be needed.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: But the Graham bill --
BASH: But, yes.
COATES: But the Graham bill does have exceptions.
CAMEROTA: But doesn't have it for rape and incest.
BASH: I believe it does.
COATES: OK.
BASH: I believe it does.
COATES: There are some --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I believe it does.
CAMEROTA: So that I stand corrected. I'm going to check that.
BASH: I believe it does. But I think what is, what was really interesting about Marco Rubio's answer, yes, it was very practical but it was, he was in one sentence able to say, this is what I believe, like a shout out to the most conservative voters on this issue.
I am 100 percent pro-life. And yet, also, sort of say, look, I am -- I've been in the Senate and I know what it takes, and I know what the majority of people want which is exceptions, which is exceptions for abortion.
CAMEROTA: I will now do a dramatic reading from our CNN right.
BASH: OK.
CAMEROTA: Senator Rubio co-sponsored a Senate bill introduced by South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham that would ban abortion in every state at 15 weeks without exceptions for rape and incest.
BASH: OK, so there you go.
COATES: That was a dramatic read.
BASH: That was a dramatic read. And to be quite honest, I didn't memorize the ins and outs of that because this was a very deliberate political ploy by Senator Graham, and I guess Senator Rubio in order to get Republicans on record with something that they support because they were getting so --
(CROSSTALK)
BUCK: And frankly, a very selfish move --
BASH: -- (Inaudible) by Democrats.
BUCK: -- by Senator Graham. Because he wanted to score points, I think like Rubio was doing there with the base with Evangelicals saying, here -- here's what I'm for.
I think what Marco Rubio was trying to do there was pushes back a little bit on Democrats. And this is some of the frustration that Republicans have been having. There's a lot of questions about where's your line? Is it 15 weeks? Is it 12 weeks? Is it -- is never.
A lot of Republicans go, well, what's the Democrats line? Where -- at what point do you want to draw the line on what an abortion OK? And I think it's a very fair question and Democrats don't get asked it a lot. And I think he was trying to push it back on her.
She did a very good job of not taking that bait. Pushing back on him. I will say any conversation about abortion right now is a win for Val Demings. This is not a topic that Republicans want to be talking about. I think the topics that were discussed in this debate, whether it was guns, abortion, the elections all benefit heard. Not as much conversation in this debate about the election or about the economy, which is what Marco Rubio wants to be covering.
COATES: And that's part of the issue, right, when Lindsey Graham put that into the universe on the day that President Biden was signing the Inflation Reduction Act, which many Republicans thought could be an easy win to try to undermine it in some way and say, the title doesn't sound like it's going to be a short-term win in these issues. And he came out with this very thing.
But I still go back to the point in many respects of and I think it's, you know, a difficult thing. On the one hand, you are not taken seriously as a politician, right? Unless you know you can actually get what your platform you're saying passed.
So, he is talking about what he can do, but still, for voters, for many of whom are younger voters, first time voters, they do want the hope of getting things done outside of the institution in Washington.
ALLISON: They don't want a national abortion ban though. And that is actually what the Graham bill is, and it's contradictory to what Republicans are saying. They said the Dobbs decision was to take the decision back to the states. And then you have Lindsey Graham introducing something that would do a blanket abortion ban, and that's not what the average American wants. They do want exceptions.
I do hear your point about what are Democrats rules. I think the line for them is it's a woman's choice and let it be between her and her doctor.
BUCK: I mean, polling will show there is a big swath in the middle of the country that believes there should be -- they should always be able to have an abortion in certain circumstances. But there are -- should be limits on at what point.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
BUCK: And that's a, that's a big conversation and a big, big group people to have. What Republicans, to your point, what Republicans have in my mind screwed up is we've always said we want to be the reasonable ones. Let states have some reasonable restrictions.
And when we just like, in states where you're going to six weeks or zero weeks or you're having an act, it's contradictory to what we've been saying for years and years and years about why we -- people should trust us.
COATES: Think about it. I mean, one way to have solve this, right, Roe v. Wade did have those limitations in part, right?
CAMEROTA: Yes. Viability.
COATES: They had trimester framework, the viability framework, essentially a fetus that could be viable outside the womb with that medical intervention essentially was going to be that that threshold.
[22:10:00] Which is one of the reasons that Republicans don't want to be talking about the issue because there was the decision that could have had that.
BASH: Absolutely. And I think what you said about questioning Democrats on what their threshold is, whether or not they want any, any legal limits at all is something that I ask --
COATES: Yes.
BASH: -- because it is important. Because this is now a state's issue. So, when you're talking to people who are running for governor, more governor, I think than in Congress because it's probably less likely now that you're going to get a national piece of legislation that for at least the short term, it's probably going to be a state's issue. That -- that matters.
It's a very, very big question. And for the Democrats who don't want any restrictions and they say it should exclusively be a decision between a woman and her doctor, they are a bit out of step with the way polling shows.
CAMEROTA: Before we go, I want to play something else that Senator Lindsey Graham said today. And this was with Herschel Walker, because he actually spelled out what he really likes about Herschel Walker, which I think is interesting for everybody to hear. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): So being from South Carolina, I'm begging you to elect Herschel for the benefit of the people of my state. We're all in this together in Washington, right?
If we had one more senator in Washington in the Republican column, I would be the budget chairman, not Bernie Sanders.
(APPLAUSE)
GRAHAM: That is a good trade, Herschel. Trust me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: That's what he likes about Herschel Walker. Power.
COATES: But that's --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: He can get a promotion.
ALLISON: But that's what they're all doing here.
COATES: That's a trade-off here. I mean, you kind of, people have been wondering what is.
BUCK: You shouldn't be -- you shouldn't be surprised by this. ALLISON: I'm not surprised that he spoke the truth.
BUCK: No.
ALLISON: In other words --
BUCK: That is the frame they want. That this seat decides who controls the Senate.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Yes. It's not just about him.
BUCK: That's not -- that's not about the budget chair, that's about control. The Mitch McConnell being a majority, minority.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: That (Inaudible) said, but I just like that Lindsey Graham said, and I would get a promotion.
BASH: Yes. Yes.
BUCK: Well, that's what they're trying to say. This is not about Herschel Walker. Forget Herschel Walker.
ALLISON: No.
BUCK: This is the Republican and that's --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Because they know he's a disaster.
BUCK: And that's generally what Republicans are saying in the state. And he had a debate last Friday where he actually did a good job presenting himself as generic Republican. Where there are some weird moments where he is holding up a badge. Absolutely.
But he did a very good job of framing this as Raphael Warnock, the Democrat is going to vote with Joe Biden. I'm the Republican, I'm going to be a check on him.
BASH: How --
BUCK: That's as simple as it can be.
BASH: How many times did your bosses and the Republican leadership pre-Trump distance themselves from people with scandals like Herschel Walker has? A lot, right? Well, --
BUCK: The exact same scandal.
BASH: The exact same scandal. Exactly. I know Trent Franks, as you're talking about.
BUCK: And Tim Murphy and the several other folks.
BASH: And others, OK.
BUCK: Yes.
BASH: It's not happening now for lots of reasons. Trump changed the game in some ways, but it's also because they have their eyes on the majority, and if they throw Herschel Walker under the bus, then it's pretty much, forgive me, game over for the notion of taking back the majority for Republicans.
COATES: This was a pivot, right? The idea of telling people why him in spite of. I mean, now we're talking about the in spite of candidacy, which is a whole new threshold. We're in politics right now. Everyone.
CAMEROTA: All right. Thank you, guys very much. Dana, thank you.
BASH: Thank you.
CAMEROTA: We're good nighting you. Everybody else, you're not going anywhere. Stick around.
ALLISON: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Next we have exclusive audio tapes of Bob Woodward's interviews with President Trump, including what Trump says about the letters from Kim Jong-un. Are those letters part of all those classified documents that Trump took home? We'll find out.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Nobody else has them, but I want you to treat them with respect. I haven't.
BOB WOODWARD, AUTHOR, RAGE: I understand. I understand.
TRUMP: : And don't say I gave them to you. OK?
WOODWARD: OK.
(END VOCIE CLIP)
[22:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: Now to a CNN exclusive legendary journalist Bob Woodward is releasing an audiobook of 20 interviews he conducted with then President Donald Trump from 2016 to 2020. The book comes out next week.
But CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel has clips from those tapes for us tonight. Also, back with us we have Brendan Buck and Ashley Allison. Well, this is a gold mine.
COATES: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Jamie, these -- these clips are incredible. What jumped out at you.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Eight hours. And it's not just Donald Trump. You hear the people around him as well. But I'm going to start with something that really, I think shows Donald Trump. It will not surprise you. It is unvarnished, it is profane. That means he swears a lot, and he attacks people of people who don't like him, and he boasts a lot about himself.
But what I thought was revealing is how much he wants to impress Bob Woodward. You just hear it over and over and at times he thinks he can impress him by telling him classified information. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have built a weapon system that nobody's ever had in this country before. We have stuff that you haven't even seen or heard about. We have stuff that Putin and XI have never heard about before.
Getting along with Russia is a good thing and a bad thing, all right? Especially because they have 1,332 nuclear fucking warheads.
It's funny. The relationships I have, the tougher and meaner they are, the better I get along with them. You'll explain that to me someday. OK. But maybe it's not a bad thing. The easy ones are the ones I maybe don't like as much or don't get along with as much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GANGEL: So just to clarify, Woodward was never able to verify whether this system exists, but he uses it as an example. And there are many throughout the audiobooks of how Trump's national security advisors, their heads are exploding because Trump is just repeatedly so cavalier, dangerous, reckless, careless, with classified information.
COATES: And, and by the way, I mean just it strikes people and certainly me, he realizes Bob is going to write a book. Right? So, I mean, he's being taped.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:20:03]
GANGEL: He was being taped.
CAMEROTA: I know he's being taped.
COATES: That's the mindboggling --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: He know he's being taped.
GANGEL: A hundred percent.
COATES: That's the mindboggling part of this. The idea that speaking about Cavallari and the way he does, but he also goes on to talk about there's some chest beating about how tough he is, which we've heard oftentimes before, but he digs in again here in a way that was just odd.
GANGEL: Look, this is classic Donald Trump. I think if you go through the transcript from the audiobook and you put the word tough in, it's every graph --
CAMEROTA: Wow.
GANGEL: -- that comes up or cool. He's very cool. He's very tough. And one of the things we saw was he also shared with Woodward those Kim Jong-un, "the love letters." Those are classified. They may not be the most top-secret thing in the world, but he's not supposed to be sharing them with a journalist.
COATES: In fact, these are part of the reason he's under investigation, these letters, right?
GANGEL: So certainly, these were one of the things that he wouldn't return. And obviously, everybody knew about them --
CAMEROTA: Right?
GANGEL: -- because it was public. Eventually after a year, the National Archives, they got those back as part of the 15 boxes that Trump sent back in January. But they had to pry it away from, from him.
CAMEROTA: Let's listen to the audio clip of him revealing these to this classified information to Bob Woodward.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
TRUMP: Nobody else has them, but I want you to treat them with respect. I haven't -- with anybody.
(CROSSTALK)
WOODWARD: I understand. I understand.
TRUMP: And don't say I gave them to you. OK?
WOODWARD: OK.
TRUMP: But I think it's OK. Normally I wouldn't have given, I wasn't going to give him to Bob, you know?
UNKNOWN: Right.
TRUMP: What, do you make a photostat of them or something? WOODWARD: No, I dictated them into a tape recorder.
TRUMP: Really?
WOODWARD: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GANGEL: So, the whole photostat thing, you know, goes back to, you guys are too young, but I remember the mimeograph in high school. I think we're talking about the same time, but listen to what Trump says.
COATES: Usually I don't do this, but here you go.
GANGEL: Right. But here it is, and don't tell anyone I gave them to you.
CAMEROTA: I mean, again, he knows he's being taped. Right?
GANGEL: A hundred percent.
CAMEROTA: During this.
GANGEL: Yes.
BUCK: It's hard not to hear him. Look, Bob Woodward is a legend, right? And Donald Trump loves famous people. It's very hard to listen to that and not think he's just really trying to impress Bob Woodward.
CAMEROTA: Yes, I hear that.
BUCK: Because he knows Bob Woodward is famous.
GANGEL: Right.
BUCK: And to your point --
COATES: But why is he a legend for essentially undermining a President?
BUCK: Exactly.
COATES: That's the shocking part.
BUCK: Exactly. But he -- but he likes the fact that someone is going to write a book about him. And if anybody, if you've had the pleasure of hearing Donald Trump privately, it's hard not to be astonished by the way that he zigs and he zags and he meanders and has parentheticals and just nonquitters, and he jumps all over the place.
But he really just wants to impress people. Ultimately, that's what it is. He wants to impress you. He wants to charm you, and I think that's what he's doing here.
ALLISON: He also is telling him, treat it with respect. How about you treat it with respect? They're classified documents like, some consistency here. And he does want to impress Woodward. But he also, I feel that there's this sense that he is above it all and that I can give it to you because I'm the king of the castle, and I am like the ruler of the land and the rules don't apply to me.
And that is, so many people caught him a narcissist. But that is what, like his behavior is narcissistic behavior.
BUCK: I'm sorry. Why do we think he has it at Mar-a-Lago? Because he wants to show his visitors the things that he has.
CAMEROTA: Well, that's the thing, which is if he showed it to Bob Woodward, is that the only person that he showed the classified stuff to? We don't know, but it seems hard to believe.
Laura was pointing out earlier that we went a long time without ever hearing Jared Kushner's voice.
ALLISON: Yes.
CAMEROTA: And people didn't know, you know, speculated there were, I think, comedic bits about what it was actually like.
COATES: Darth Vader, or Gilbert Gottfried, we didn't know.
CAMEROTA: So -- Gottfried. So here, here it is. Should we play this portion?
GANGEL: Yes. Can I just set it up by telling you that what's happened before this is that Donald Trump has put Jared on the phone with Woodward so that Jared will arrange for Woodward to have interviews with other people in the White House.
CAMEROTA: OK. Got it. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
JARED KUSHNER, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hello.
WOODWARD: Jared. Bob Woodward. How are.
KUSHNER: Good. How are you?
WOODWARD: Did you hear what he said that I'm going to come see you. We've got a date scheduled; I think next week. And then, you --
KUSHNER: Perfect.
WOODWARD: -- can help me with some of these other people I want to talk to. Is that --
KUSHNER: Perfect. Well, what I'll do is I'll make a list of other people. What I heard from the president is basically that I now work for you. So, I will make myself available, around that schedule. And I will make sure I get you a good list. I'll come up with my list, and if you come with your list of wants. I will work to try to make it all happen.
WOODWARD: I want you to know I have no illusions that you work for me. I know you worked for Ivanka, right?
KUSHNER: OK. Fine. You get it. You get it. That's probably why you're Bob Woodward.
WOODWARD: I get it.
KUSHNER: That's true.
(END VOICE CLIP)
[22:25:03]
CAMEROTA: That's a funny exchange.
COATES: He is Bob Woodward, though. I mean, the idea of, I guess I'm still going back this point. I'm always a little bit tickled by just how open and accommodating people are with --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: He hypnotizes people.
COATES: -- with journalists who clearly are going to be writing a story that's going to be hopefully objective and not have you smelling like roses.
GANGEL: So a couple of things that I've learned about Bob Woodward over the years, he doesn't give up. He will come and knock on your door at 10 o'clock at night. He also talks to so many people that when he shows up, he has the receipts even before he starts. He says, well, you said this then and this, and so people really want to talk to him to make sure they get their side of the story.
CAMEROTA: I feel for Jared in that exchange because he doesn't know who his boss is anymore. You know, I got the impression that President Trump is like, today you work for the secretary of state. Today, you work for Bob Woodward. Today you work for Ivanka, and he's just long suffering, Jared, having to do whatever the president says. That was my impression from listening to that.
This is great, Jamie. Really, it really incredible to hear this.
(CROSSTALK)
GANGEL: It's -- it's Bob Woodward's work. I'm just lucky enough to have listened to it first.
COATES: I'll tell you what, if Bob Woodward is knocking on someone's door at 10 o'clock, he's not watching us. So, I'm -- it's already a problem.
CAMEROTA: Yes, Bob.
COATES: To midnight.
(CROSSTALK)
GANGEL: I think -- I think he's watching us.
COATES: OK, fine. He's watching. There you go. I'm not saying.
GANGEL: Say hello.
COATES: Look, it's also an alarming new study we're going to talk about next about the connection between hair straightening products and an increased risk of cancer. And black women may be most at risk. We'll explain this important story, next.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Well, there's a new study by the National Institute of Health that is raising a lot of concern around the use of chemical hair straightening products, particularly among black women. If you didn't notice from your screen, you were looking at one.
The study followed more than 33,000 women ages 35 to 74 in the United States who have used hair dyes, straighteners, relaxers, or pressing products for an average of over 10 years. About 60 percent of participants identified as black women. Now, over that time 378 women were diagnosed with uterine cancer.
Here with this now CNN political analyst, Laura Barron-Lopez, political commentator, Ashley Allison and senior political analyst, Kirsten Powers.
You know, this is a topic that is very near and dear to my heart. I am natural. I no longer straighten my hair chemically, but there was a time that I did. And the idea that so many people I know did so at an early age, did so for a very long time, and now might have the risk of uterine cancer. And it's linked in many ways, some do so to try to conform certain beauty standards in our world, let alone the industry and beyond.
And I'm resentful of the fact that this is even occurring. And we were talking about this in makeup, you and I, about when did you have your first relaxer and when did you get it? When did you decide not to do it any longer? And it's a real conversation that black women are always having.
ALLISON: Yes, black women hair, it's a sacred topic. It's a part of our culture. And I thank my mom for protecting my hair and not letting me get a relaxer until I was a teenager because it literally changes the chemical makeup of your hair to make it irreversible, to go back to its natural state.
COATES: You have to cut it off.
ALLISON: You have to cut it off and start all over again. And one of the reasons that so many black women, and there's no judgment on how people wear your hair, I think everyone has their choice to how they want to appear. But a lot of black women do straighten their hair because for so long, that was the quote, unquote, "mainstream image of beauty."
We are now in this renaissance of owning who we are and being proud and really leaning into black is beautiful like in the 60s and wearing natural hair, and making sure that corporate America and that on television we can wear our hair in natural ways because it's a part of who we are. It's a part of our culture.
COATES: Yes. And Laura, you've reported on, I mean, the idea of the politics behind this as well, and we've all had these conversations apart because it's the pride factor, but it's also when there are consequences for not conforming.
And the CROWN Act is one example to try to codify a way so that there would not be so-called consequences. And again, we're talking about a link to uterine cancer. I mean, this is, and this, it's on the rise among black women as well. I mean, the politics of this is really increasing.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, it is. And yes, the consequences for, you know, companies like this to disclose potentially what -- what the result or the correlations could be for chemical straightening.
Now, personally, as a Latina, like I have faced a lot of pressure because this is my natural hair to straighten it throughout my life, even at a young age, whether it was from people that I was around, not my parents, thankfully. But also, you know, even when I started as it making the transition from print to TV. There were a lot of questions of whether or not, are you going to straighten your hair, are you going to change your hair?
And I intentionally said, no, I'm never going to do that. I'm always going to wear it this way. Thankfully, I've never actually chemically straightened it. But this morning my partner sent me that article because I think he wasn't sure if I used chemical straighteners or not on the occasion, because maybe about four times a year I do straighten my. I don't do it using chemicals. And he was concerned that potentially this could impact me as well.
[22:34:56]
So, I think it's a lot of fear that black women, other women of color may potentially have if they have, you know, curly hair that doesn't actually conform to beauty standards.
CAMEROTA: Yes. And by the way, I mean, white women get pressured to straighten their hair too. I mean, because there is a beauty standard for black women and white women to have straight, silky hair.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: Or to color it. CAMEROTA: We've always been, well, I mean, I wouldn't know, but I do know about straightening. I mean, I get so much, but it's so much positive feedback at the times that I have done a keratin in my hair, people are like, your hair looks so fantastic. And so, I want to do it more. And I had no idea. I knew that formaldehyde couldn't be good for me, Kirsten.
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, when your skin, you know, your skin is kind of on fire.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
POWERS: You're sitting there and you're like --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Literally.
POWERS: -- could this possibly be bad? I mean, I don't know.
CAMEROTA: Could this be bad? There's fumes like, and you're holding like --
POWERS: Yes.
CAMEROTA: -- a towel over your face. And obviously if somebody had said, if I had known, if there had been disclosure it's linked to uterine cancer, I would never have done it. But for the sake of this sort of universal beauty, I was doing it.
POWERS: But also, there's the, even if it wasn't bad for you, why should anybody have to do this? Why should women have to spend the money, the time have to reject what they look like? Your hair is amazing. Right? I mean, it's insane that there was actually a time where you would not be able to have the job that you have if you didn't conform to whatever the idea was of basically a bunch of men.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: But it has changed. You all of you saying that.
COATES: Yes.
BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes. It has changed.
COATES: It has changed. You know, and for, I have a little girl and so in my hair I say is natural. I blow dry it, I flat iron it. I mean, you know, I was once in the salon to color it, but I was next to you. I don't want to, I know. But for my daughter, I intentionally wear my hair naturally around my daughter.
Because I want her to understand that this is what beauty looks like and that it's also what she looks like and her hair looks like mine when it's natural. And this is what I have to constantly think about. You always say things like representation matters. You got to see yourself on television. See yourself in books. See yourself in theater. See yourself in politics.
And there's few instances where I think people are really seeing themselves and to think, and we we're sitting here about five minutes ago trying to figure out name a woman on television with gray hair.
ALLISON: Right.
BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes.
CAMEROTA: We can't come up with one.
BARRON-LOPEZ: No.
POWERS: No.
COATES: It's absurd.
POWERS: Yes, no, because I was saying like I actually would like to go gray. Maybe I will go gray now.
CAMEROTA: My gosh.
POWERS: You know.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: You're ushing me to (Inaudible) .
POWERS: Yes. Because, no, because I -- because I resent it because there are men here who have gray hair and nobody has a problem with it. Right? No one has ever --
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: It means wisdom for them.
POWERS: Yes. They're established and all these other things. And so, for a woman, it's somehow, there's a reason that women haven't done it is because we think we're going to get punished for it. And so, we spend, like I said, I go back to the money and the time that women spend, that men don't have to spend, just maintaining ourselves so that we're acceptable to society. Just to be acceptable. It's not even to be on a different, you know, level or something.
ALLISON: I think the thing that is, so I was in the gym and my friend said, my gosh, have you seen this? And I think the thing that's so destruct -- disturbing is that what testing, what other things are we using on our body?
COATES: Yes.
ALLISON: That they're pushing down our throats and we have no idea the impact in the long term.
COATES: Yes. ALLISON: And what type of testing? And I do know everyone can have
straighten there. But the way relaxers, I mean, and just for me, perm, there's like a whole TikTok trend. Like where are the just for me perm girls at 20 years from now, because it was shoved down, the marketing was pushed down on long -- little black girls, that if you didn't have silky straight hair with the little bow, you were not pretty, and that nobody would want you, nobody would love you.
COATES: Let me tell you something. For our conversations there should be no judgment. Wear your hair how you want to wear it. I like to wear my hair the way I like to wear my hair. I hope you all do as well. But if you're doing it because someone tells you that, that is how you are supposed to look. Call me. You guys write a conversation to happen and that's, well, that's just for me.
Thank you very much. See, I did there.
CAMEROTA: That goes around the world.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: Well, I want you to know about and what you think about this study as well and the pressure society puts on black and Latina women and really women more broadly about beauty standards. That and anything else you want to say to Alisyn and me within reason.
CAMEROTA: Yes. Thank you.
COATES: You always invite the whole conversation. I'm not opening Pandora's box within reason about what we're talking about today. The Laura Coates and Alisyn Camerota. Use the hash tag CNN sound off.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: Meghan Markle talks about being objectified. In the newest episode of her podcast, Archetypes. Markle described her experience as a so-called briefcase girl on the game show Deal or No Deal back in 2000.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN, DUCHESS OF SUSSEX: I mean, you have to imagine, just to paint the picture for you, that before the tapings of the show, all the girls, we would line up and there were different stations for having your lashes put on, or your extensions put in, or the padding in your bra. We were even given spray tan vouchers each week.
Because there was a very cookie cutter idea of precisely what we should look like. It was solely about beauty and not necessarily about brains. And when I look back at that time, I will never, I'll never forget this one detail, because moments before we'd get on stage, there was a woman who ran the show and she would be there back stage. And I can still hear her. She couldn't properly pronounce my last name at the time, and I knew
who she was talking to because she would go, Mark-el, suck it in. Mark-el, suck it in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Wow.
CAMEROTA: Megan Markle sat down with socialite Paris Hilton to dissect the label of bimbo and dumb -- Dumb Blonde.
[22:45:04]
Back with us, Laura Barron-Lopez. Ashley Allison and Kirsten Powers.
OK, I admit Laura, I'm confused by this. This confuses me. She took a job as basically a model that carries a briefcase of fake money on a game show, and she thought it was about brains. I mean, she had no lines. So yes, she was objectified. The role called for being objectified. Let's be honest.
Now, she also was a star on a different show called Suits, where she had a substantial role that was a different character she was playing. So, are we supposed to be outraged that she was objectified on Deal or No Deal?
BARRON-LOPEZ: I mean, look, you're right. She did take this job. She --
COATES: Was paid.
BARRON-LOPEZ: -- presumably knew what she was entering when she took the job. It doesn't mean that she should have to deal with someone who was telling her to suck it in. I think that it's refreshing that Meghan Markle talks about these things, even though that was part of that job's M.O. and that job -- that job description.
And I think it, her talking about it potentially raises questions as to whether or not do we need models next to these suitcases? I mean, do we need women to standing next to all these suitcases. Do we really need Vanna White in all --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Well, I don't know.
BARRON-LOPEZ: All this lengthy dresses.
COATES: I love Wheel of Fortune.
BARRON-LOPEZ: You know, sorry, not Wheel of Fortune.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: That's fair.
BARRON-LOPEZ: Some of this, this is a model, the other term for a model because it works.
POWERS: Yes, but Alisyn, don't -- I think the bigger problem is that if you're Meghan Markle starting out how many years ago this was, this was a while ago. These are the options for women and men have different options, and then that's what the point is. The point is she probably didn't really have a choice. She did have to do this. It doesn't make it any less humiliating that she was doing it well.
CAMEROTA: She didn't have to take that job.
POWERS: And if you don't -- well, I don't, I don't think that's fair. I actually think that's kind of like blaming the victim. The fact that a woman, the fact that a woman doesn't have a lot of options in Hollywood except to have to play bimbos, you know, is not Meghan Mark's fault. It's Hollywood's fault.
And so, you know, I don't know that she had a lot of options to break in. And then that's the problem is that women are -- this is what women -- the options that women are given and there's all these other options for men. And we know for a long time it's starting to change because we're having more women directors and things like that, especially because of streaming.
But at the time she was breaking into the business, I don't think there were a lot of options. And I think that this just speaks badly to the people who were in control.
ALLISON: I agree. I also think is what is the standard of beauty? Do you have to be a size four --
BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes.
ALLISON: -- with straight hair and have large breasts and all of the things that people say like this is what the Barbie image of what you need to look like, spray tan for a certain complexion, but not too dark of a complexion.
And it does go to, like, the gang would've still existed without the women next to the suitcase. Like the deal was in the case, not the women.
CAMEROTA: I guess. But I don't know if anybody is ever gone broke putting beautiful women on TV. I mean.
COATES: Well, that's the point though. I mean, and part of it, and I think it's, it's kind of like I've had this conversation and no disrespect to cheerleaders. I fully support everyone doing what they want to do. But are you that much more interested in the game by the presence of it?
So, I'm going to argue the Halftime Show. I mean, I'm not just discriminating against that notion of it. But I look at it as more of a reflection of what Hollywood requires and the idea of saying, look, here's what we -- here's what we know is going to feed the audience. Here's what we know is going to be something that is enticing to people.
And she was also speaking to Paris Hilton as part of this conversation who has been very vocal in years since her original sort of debut as a socialite to talk about how it was a famed put-on sort of, dits.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
COATES: And that served her well to be thought of as Coquettish and meek and not fully in the room.
CAMEROTA: The bimbo.
COATES: And you know, in reality there was a lot more going on. And I think that does speak about why it would be, that's a safe space for people to go, she's non-threatening. There's nothing there or there. And we are by the way, five-year anniversary from the Me Too movement. These combinations have been happening over and over again.
CAMEROTA: But I mean, I guess I would just say about Paris Hilton, she was playing a role and Meghan Markle is playing a role and she made it her brand. I mean, Paris Hilton made that her brand.
Now of course, we can talk about who was forcing her to make it that brand, and did she have to make it the brand. But she rode that brand for years.
(CROSSTALK)
POWERS: But I don't think anybody was even forced to do anything. I just think things happen. I -- you have to remember how young she was, and that you get into these situations and I'll just speak about it getting into television and maybe you could as well. You come into --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: I know that this is ringing truth for you.
POWERS: You come into it thinking, I'm here to talk about politics and I'm here to do all these other things. And next thing you know, you've got people telling you how to wear your hair and how to wear your makeup, and why don't you wear more makeup? you know, it's -- I've actually had, you know, someone sit me down and say, it's good to be attractive. It's good to be pretty, but doesn't make you not serious. Can we make you a little prettier? Can we play this up a little bit more? And you kind of go along with it because you don't really know what's going on.
[22:49:59]
This was 15 years ago for me what I'm talking about. Right? Now today, I don't know that you guys will put up with that, right? Like, would you? I don't.
ALLISON: It's tough.
POWERS: Yes. ALLISON: I mean, as much as I am a feminist and I try and stand in my truth in power, like, I want to be on CNN and so like, you do what you need to do to be, not to say that they would not have me on the show if I didn't look a certain way or what.
But I think the point though of this is that where does it stop? Yes. Meghan was holding a briefcase on a game show and Paris was playing a reality star. One of the first to introduce, but we also know it carries over in other sectors. It carries over in television. It carries over in politics. Candidates, what do they look like? What are they wearing?
COATES: They dissect the vice president's wardrobe --
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: Every day.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
ALLISON: How she wears her hair. She takes how long in makeup? Well, if she came out without looking professional, what would you call her then? Michelle Obama looked like this. You know, name --
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: Republican women too. Get it, by the way.
CAMEROTA: Everyone.
BARRON-LOPEZ: The one thing I'll say is, whether or not she put herself into that position with the Deal or No Deal job, that I think the fact that she's talking about this makes all women, you know, and hopefully men realize when they're treating women in this way in their places. Because I've been objectified by members of Congress, you know, multiple times. And it's very difficult to come forward and talk about that. And it happens, you know, somewhat to women on a regular basis.
And I think that if they see, you know, conversations like this that we're covering, that hopefully men start to realize and women who do it as well, because that was a woman that did it to Meghan Markle, that that's not acceptable to this. It shouldn't be done anymore.
COATES: I'm sorry, I don't want to leave this point though. When that has happened to you in the course of your profession as a journalist, that congressmen are doing this and how do you react in those moments?
BARRON-LOPEZ: I think early on when I was younger, I didn't totally know how to act.
COATES: Yes.
BARRON-LOPEZ: When it happened in more recent years, I confronted the member with others around me, you know, right outside the floor.
CAMEROTA: There you go.
BARRON-LOPEZ: So, and I said that they needed to stop.
COATES: And did they?
BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes, they did. They have since.
POWERS: But there was a time if you did that, you would lose your job. Right?
BARRON-LOPEZ: That's right.
POWERS: Right. There's a -- and that's what Meghan Markle, I think is talking about. Is that if she had pushed back against that, she would've lost her job. And so, it's, it's like you have to just realize. And then I do think what happens, and I think Alisyn, I keep looking at you because I know we've gone through this through our career.
As you get older and you mature and society changes and the standards change and you start looking back to going, why didn't I say something?
CAMEROTA: Well, yes. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
POWERS: Why didn't I do something, you know?
CAMEROTA: And to Laura's point, the Me Too movement I do think changed a lot of things --
POWERS: Yes.
CAMEROTA: -- and particularly the national conversation and the way we all think about those things. And for that, I think we're all grateful.
COATES: Thank you for sharing, Laura.
BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
POWERS: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Thanks so much, ladies. OK. Next, what James Corden did to get himself barred from a top New York City hotspot. He may have been a jerk. It's possible. I know that.
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Late night host James Corden temporarily banned from New York City Hotspot Balthazar. The restaurant's owner, Keith McNally, is alleging verbal abuse by Corden against the staff. McNally calling Corden a quote, "tiny cretin of a man," and quote, "the most abusive customer in Balthazar's history."
CAMEROTA: This makes me very sad because I think that James Corden is so appealing and he's so funny, and he's so talented, and it's a bummer that he's a jerk. But he has now apologized profusely, we're told. The ban has been revoked, thank goodness. McNally, Balthazar's owner says tonight in a self-deprecating statement, quote, "anyone magnanimous enough to apologize to a deadbeat lay about like me does not deserve to be banned from anywhere, especially Balthazar." CNN has reached out to Corden for comment. We haven't heard back yet.
But this is -- this is -- there's a -- there's a lesson here. Don't ever be rude to the wait staff. Don't ever be rude to the waiters. I mean, what it --
COATES: Or to anyone.
CAMEROTA: OK. That -- that's, that's a more universal. That's a good
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: That's the lesson. That's the lesson.
CAMEROTA: But particularly, you just are a jerk. If you're rude to the waiters and waitresses, it's just like you have a huge jerk sign. And by the way, the things he was doing in June, Corden demanded that a round of drinks come this second, and that his previous drinks be combed because he had found a hair in his food. That is gross. And he --
COATES: But the food, not the drinks.
CAMEROTA: Yes. And also, did he really, I mean, I don't know. Anyway, he was extremely nasty to the manager. He also on another occasion that month, came into the restaurant with his wife for brunch and said to the server that there was a tiny bit of egg yolk in her egg white omelet. That's jerky.
COATES: I got to tell you. I mean, I, as somebody who is awfully new to being sometimes recognizable to people. I have spent a lot of my time being a bit invisible, and I can tell you I love it because I know who people really are and how you treated people that I've watched and I'm kind of like, I see you . And I think when it comes to, I've been a waitress.
CAMEROTA: Yes. Me too.
COATES: I've had all sorts of odd jobs and I can tell you about a per -- if the person treats people because they have this perceived sense of superiority.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
COATES: I don't care what kind of schmoozing you can do; you'll always be seen. So maybe that's what happened here. I've also never been to Balthazar, though.
CAMEROTA: I'll take you there. It's great. Fantastic. Fantastic.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: If there's a hair in my food, do I get to get a free meal or are you buying? Never mind she's buying. That's fine. I'll go.
CAMEROTA: OK. We want to know what you think about James Corden's -- I mean, is he a jerk or is he, did he just have a bad month. OK. Let us know about that.
COATES: I think I know how you feel.
CAMEROTA: Or anything. No, I mean, I really, I'm glad he apologized. That's the right thing to do. Tweet us at Alisyn Camerota and the Laura Coates. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
