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CNN Tonight
Los Angeles Mayoral Candidate Rick Caruso Focused On Homelessness, Crime And Corruption; GOP New Hampshire Senate Nominee Repeats Hoax That Kids Are Using Litter Boxes In Schools; Conservative Justices Seem Poised To Overturn Affirmative Action. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 31, 2022 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: About two hours, from now, America could mint itself, a new billionaire!
The Powerball drawing, for tonight, has reached $1 billion. Only the second time in its history, it's been that high. If no one wins, the drawing, for Wednesday, will increase to $1.2 billion! Now, if you do win tonight, and take the cash payout, it's only worth about half a billion dollars. Still pretty good money though!
The news continues. Time now, for Jake Tapper, and CNN TONIGHT.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH JAKE TAPPER: Welcome to CNN TONIGHT. I'm Jake Tapper, in Washington.
And tonight, new horrific details are emerging, about the attempted violent attack, against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the one that ended with the wounding and hospitalization, of her husband, Paul Pelosi.
The alleged violent intruder, David DePape, is now facing federal charges, for breaking into the Pelosis' home, and beating Paul Pelosi, with a hammer, early Friday morning.
The federal criminal complaint, released today, reveals that the suspect, who trafficked online, in far-right conspiracy theories, about COVID, and the 2020 election, and Holocaust denialism, quote, "Stated that he was going to hold Nancy hostage and talk to her. If Nancy were to tell DEPAPE the 'truth,' he would let her go, and if she 'lied,' he was going to break 'her kneecaps.'"
DePape also explained that "By breaking Nancy's kneecaps, she would then have to be wheeled into Congress, which would show other Members of Congress there were consequences to actions," unquote.
Several prominent Republicans have condemned the attack, including today, Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With Paul Pelosi, that's a terrible thing. With all of them, it's a terrible thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Trump very quickly pivoted to attacking San Francisco, for its high crime rate. But he at least did condemn the attack, on Paul Pelosi, as did House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Let me be perfectly clear. Violence or threat of violence has no place in our society. And what happened to Paul Pelosi is wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: As did Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who tweeted he is quote, "Horrified and disgusted by the reports that Paul Pelosi was assaulted."
But you know what? Far too many other Republicans, and conservative leaders, are out there, instead, spreading insane offensive and false conspiracy theories, such as the complete and utter lie, the deranged smear that Paul Pelosi, and the attacker, the man, who hit him in the head, with a hammer, were in a sexual relationship.
To his 8.7 million Twitter followers, Donald Trump Jr. shared an image of a hammer and a pair of underwear that had the caption, "Got my Paul Pelosi Halloween costume ready." He also posted something else, which he quickly deleted, a South Park-esque cartoon image, supposedly of Pelosi, and the guy, who hit him in the head with a hammer, having sex.
You know what? When some sick moron, sent a white powder, to the home of Donald Trump Jr., in 2018, sending his then-wife Vanessa, to the hospital, as a precaution? That was awful.
Why is this, happening to Paul Pelosi, not the same thing, even worse? It's hard to fathom the kind of mind that hears of a tragedy, like what happened to 82-year-old Paul Pelosi, and decides to traffic in this filth.
But sadly, Donald Trump Jr. is hardly alone. Former Republican congressman, and Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes, who now runs Trump's social media company, Truth Social, shared this Halloween image, with the words, "At least this guy has his clothes on."
Nunes also reposted this meme, using a poster, for the gay romantic comedy, "Bros," twisting it into a smear of Paul Pelosi, and again, the man, who tried to bash Pelosi's head, in with a hammer. Words fail!
Republican congressman Clay Higgins of Louisiana tweeted, then deleted this, which was captured by Voice of America's Steve Herman, a photo of Nancy Pelosi, with the words, quote, "That moment you realize the nudist hippie male prostitute LSD guy was the reason your husband didn't make it to your fundraiser."
I mean, what is wrong with these people? There's more. But you get the point.
In addition to being an inhuman and inhumane response to a tragedy, it's a lie! The Federal affidavit released this afternoon says Pelosi did not know the suspect.
And San Francisco Police Chief, Bill Scott, said this, on CNN, this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF WILLIAM SCOTT, SAN FRANCISCO POLICE: There is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Pelosi knew this man. As a matter of fact, the evidence indicates the exact opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Sadly, in this era of social media, after every tragedy, like this, we unfortunately see some awful reactions.
[21:05:00]
A volunteer official, for the Nebraska Democratic Party, was fired, after saying he was glad, Republican leader Steve Scalise was shot, by a deranged Bernie Sanders supporter, in 2017.
That same year, there were some pretty awful comments, on social media, after Republican senator Rand Paul's neighbor, attacked him, breaking six of his ribs, bruising his lungs, making it difficult for him to breathe, sending Rand Paul to the hospital.
And three years later, commenting on a controversy, involving Senator Paul, one of Speaker Pelosi's daughter tweeted that "Rand Paul's neighbor was right." She then deleted it.
All of these comments, unequivocally wrong. But these smears, about Paul Pelosi, they're not just evidence of partisanship, blocking someone's ability to be human. They're conspiratorial. They're in a way, an attempt, to not just downplay, but justify the violence. They're part of the same sickness that got Paul Pelosi injured, to begin with.
Some of these insane conspiracy theories, about Paul Pelosi, are still trending, on Twitter, under its new billionaire owner, Elon Musk. And we should note Musk himself sent a tweet that pushed this false smear, of Pelosi.
Responding to a tweet from Hillary Clinton, in which she condemned the attack, as inspired by hateful rhetoric, Elon Musk, who has more than 110 million followers, on Twitter, wrote, quote, "There might be more to this story than meets the eye" unquote. And then, he shared a link to an extreme right-wing website, a site so deranged, it claimed in 2016, that Hillary Clinton had died, and a body double, had been sent, to debate Donald Trump. Here's what Elon Musk said, in April, about what he wants Twitter to be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, TESLA MOTORS: We want to be just very reluctant to delete things and have - just be very cautious with permanent bans.
It's very important for there to be an inclusive arena for free speech.
Twitter has become kind of the de facto Town Square.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: There is a vast difference between Elon Musk wanting Twitter to lean more into the freest speech possible, and Elon Musk himself abusing those free speech rights, by smearing people, with a complete and utter lack of caution. There is such a thing as empirical truth, and it is not to be found at the website that reported Hillary Clinton dead, six years ago.
National security experts have been warning for years that we, in the United States, need to fear more stochastic terrorism. In case you're not familiar with the term, "Stochastic," it's defined as the public demonization of a person or a group that, results in the incitement of a violent act, even without express orders to attack that person or group.
When leaders, whether elected, or in media, or in a movement, when leaders claim that their opponents are pedophiles, or Satanists, or a part of a grand conspiracy to hurt you and your family? Is anyone really surprised, when somebody, who hears this, acts?
What exactly do you think is going to happen, when a President, for months, lies to his supporters that an election is being stolen?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO - JANUARY 6, 2021 - U.S. CAPITOL HILL RIOT)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What exactly do you think is going to happen, when smear artists, invent a deranged conspiracy theory, about Hillary Clinton, and her campaign, and non-existent child sex operations, at the basement, of a very real family pizzeria?
You know what happens? A guy with a gun drives from North Carolina, to that pizzeria!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES ALEFANTIS, COMET PING PONG OWNER: I really hope that all of these people, fanning the flames of this conspiracy, would take a moment to contemplate what has gone on here, today, and maybe to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What exactly do you think is going to happen, when politicians, and TV anchors, push the Great Replacement Theory, the idea that Jews want to replace Whites in America, with Latinos, and people of color?
You know what happens? That deranged conspiracy theory inspires the anti-Semitic attacks, in Pittsburgh, the anti-Latino attacks, in El Paso, the racist Buffalo supermarket shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAYMOND WHITFIELD, SON OF 86-YEAR-OLD BUFFALO SHOOTING VICTIM RUTH WHITFIELD: It was very difficult, laying eyes on the person, who shot your mother down in a grocery store.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:10:00]
TAPPER: Paul Pelosi, to his attacker, was not a grandfather, or a father, or a husband, or a businessman. He was an enemy!
While speaking today, on the investigation, into the attack, the San Francisco Police Chief posed an important question, for all of us, as Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: What does it take? Does it take somebody being murdered? Does it take - I mean what does it, take, for us to finally stand up, and say, "This is enough. It needs to stop. Despite what your political views are, it needs to stop?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: It's not just folks, in the political arena, playing fast and loose, with these dangerous ideas.
Take Kanye West, now known as Ye, his response to criticism of his many anti-Semitic comments has been to make more of them. A recent tirade against, quote, "Jewish business people," got him suspended from Instagram, again, last night.
And alarmingly, there are a lot of people, out there, on social media, taking Ye's side, on this. NBA star, Kyrie Irving, of the Brooklyn Nets, he recently tweeted a link, to a widely-debunked anti-Semitic movie, full of lies and just junk. He was not apologetic at all, at a Saturday press conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYRIE IRVING, BROOKLYN NETS GUARD: There's things being posted every day. I'm no different than the next human being, so don't treat me any different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The next human being doesn't have 4.6 million Twitter followers, Kyrie!
At a time of rising anti-Semitic violence, I do not know what is missing, in these people's hearts, or their lives, that they feel the need, to smear individuals, or groups, to ignore the humanity, of these other people.
But in one way, Kyrie Irving, is right. He is no different. He might have a larger platform. But, in this moment, we all need to consider, how we talk about our fellow humans.
We're going to pick it up, on the other side, with a candidate, vying to lead America's second largest city, Los Angeles. Democrat Rick Caruso was once a Republican. Does he think America can get past this poison that's been injected into our politics? That's next.
[21:15:00]
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TAPPER: As we approach the midterm elections, if you want to know how much the Democrats are playing defense, just take a look at their recent and upcoming travel schedules.
First lady Jill Biden, in Rhode Island; Vice President Kamala Harris, in Connecticut; Former President Obama and President Biden heading to Pennsylvania.
And now, "The Washington Post" is reporting that President Biden is also going to head to California, as part of his final midterm swing. California! He's going to campaign with San Diego area candidate Mike Levin, for a competitive seat, Levin's held, since 2018.
In nearby Los Angeles, Democrats, Rick Caruso, a former Republican, and Representative Karen Bass, are locked in a high-profile race, to be the city's next mayor.
Caruso is a billionaire real estate developer, who is a former Republican, and Independent. Now, he's a Democrat, who changed his affiliation, earlier this year. And he joins me now.
Rick Caruso, thanks so much, for joining us. Appreciate it.
With President Biden, now forced to visit places, such as California, are you sensing that there is an increased probability, of a Republican wave that Democrats are having a tough time? Or is Los Angeles kind of immune from the zeitgeist, the wave that a lot of pollsters say is building, for the Republican Party, and against Democrats?
RICK CARUSO, (D) LOS ANGELES MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Jake, thanks for having me, on the show. And I can't really comment on that for the following reason. I have been spending and so focused on what's happening here, in Los Angeles, I'm not really focused on what's happening, nationally.
I know the focus on being around every corner of the city is about homelessness, and crime and corruption. And that's what I'm talking to residents about. So, we're going to stay focused for the next seven days or eight days on that. And we'll see what the rest of the country does, down the road.
But, L.A. is a very unique place, right now. We've got some serious problems that we've got to take care of. And I'm excited about having the opportunity to lead that change.
TAPPER: So, let's talk about that, what you talk about, homelessness, and drugs and crime.
Because, six hours, north of you, a man, who reportedly, at least at some point, had been dealing with homelessness, and drug addiction, broke into the home of House Speaker Pelosi, which for a lot of individuals highlights the issues of homelessness, and crime, and drugs, plaguing that city as well as Los Angeles, your city.
Over the past two years, in Los Angeles, homelessness has risen by more than 4 percent. Crime is trending up as well. Murders, up 16.5 percent. Robberies, rising 15.9 percent. What can be done to counter this trend?
CARUSO: Well, first of all, to the Pelosi family, it's terrible what happened. And I pray for the speedy recovery of Mr. Pelosi.
In terms of Los Angeles, it's all about leadership. It's about making some good, smart, tough decisions. It's about that the system is broken here in Los Angeles. It's also we've seen a lot of corruption in the system. And that's fueling what's happening, with the homeless problem. We're not taking care of it. In spite of the fact, we're spending a billion dollars a year, we, being the City of Los Angeles. So, the system isn't working.
And crime, on murders alone are up 50 percent, in two years. And people don't feel safe in their communities. So, we've got to do some things that prevent crime, and make sure we're making communities safer.
I've got experience doing that. I'm going to bring that experience to the Mayor's office. I've got experience building. We need to build more housing. We are so short of housing, in Los Angeles, 500,000 units were over-regulated. We make it difficult to invest, and build, in the City of Los Angeles.
[21:20:00]
We've got to give the homeless a path to a better life, with compassion, with dignity, care. But they have to be taken off the street, and then they have to be given the services that they need, psychiatric services, drug addiction services. There is a path forward to this. There's programs that are working exceedingly well. And I have fashioned my plans after those programs that have a 90 percent success rate, of people not falling back into homelessness, once they're treated properly, and give them a shelter.
TAPPER: So, you and Congresswoman Bass, your opponent, you say a lot of similar things, when it comes to your visions, on crime, and public safety, and policing, the need to cut through the red tape, to build more housing.
You have both resisted calls, to cut the LAPD's nearly $3 billion budget. You've both advocated for hiring more gang intervention workers, sending unarmed professionals, to calls, involving mentally- ill people.
The big difference, it seems to me is that she has experience, working within a system. And it's, to be perfectly candid, not exactly the strongest mayoralty in America. And you have more experience, as a - do as, I say, CEO. So, why would you be better?
CARUSO: Well, let me just sort of differ with the premise to that question, if you don't mind, respectfully, Jake.
I've worked with three mayors, in the City of Los Angeles. Tom Bradley, I worked for, as a Commissioner, Dick Riordan, and Jim Hahn.
I'm the only candidate, the only person that's been responsible, for the operation, of LAPD, when I was the President of the Police Commission, brought in new leadership, Bill Bratton. And we cut crime by 30 percent, by community policing, officers on the street. So, I actually know how to do it.
Karen has never worked for the City of Los Angeles. I've been inside city government. And I've been outside. I built my own business, from scratch. I have a proven track record of success.
You need to be an Executive. The day either I or Karen, take office, about 30 days, after the election, you're going to be responsible, the Mayor will be responsible, for an $11 billion budget, 50 separate departments, 80,000 employees. If you have no experience, being an Executive, or managing, you're going to be lost, and we're going to get more of the same. We've had that for the last 10 years.
TAPPER: Right. But a Bass supporter--
CARUSO: Somebody without Executive skills.
TAPPER: A Bass supporter might say, "But it's not a CEO job, the L.A. mayoralty." It's a job where you really have to convince people, because it is not a strong mayoralty.
CARUSO: And that's my track record. I've built my business. I would have never been able to do, in Los Angeles, what I've done, without finding common ground, and working with everybody, and bringing communities together. I would have never been able to reform LAPD, unless I had that skill set. I've actually done it in the City of Los Angeles, through the government enterprise. That's why I'm uniquely qualified. That's why I'm excited about this job. Because I know I can do it. I've done it before. And there's great hope and possibility in this city. Change can happen.
TAPPER: All right, Rick Caruso, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
CARUSO: Thank you, Jake.
TAPPER: What might kitty litter boxes have to do with the fate of American democracy, while our country is literally going to crap, if lies like this next bonkers conspiracy theory, keep getting spread, as facts, for political gain? We're going to try to bury the BS, once and for all. That's next.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Children in America are not going to the bathroom, in litter boxes, in their schools! That apparently needs to be said, because it is a conspiracy theory that a lot of Republican candidates, out there, just can't shake.
The latest purveyor, of this insanity, is Don Bolduc, who's the Republican Senate nominee, in New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON BOLDUC, (R) U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE - NEW HAMPSHIRE: Guess what? We have furries and fuzzies in classrooms.
(LAUGHTER)
BOLDUC: They lick themselves, they're cats. When they don't like something, they hiss.
They're putting litter boxes - right. Litter boxes for that.
These are the same people that are concerned about spreading germs. Yet, they let - they let children lick themselves and then touch everything. And they're starting to lick each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I mean what? This is, needless to say, nonsense. And not only is it a lie, in urban legend, it's one shared in the service of let's be honest, here, advocating for being cruel to Trans kids.
In any case, fact-checkers, for major news outlets, have repeatedly and reportedly looked into this, and found no evidence for it. They've shot it down. Fact-checkers including CNN's KFILE Andrew Kaczynski, who joins us now. Andrew, you've been talking about this, for weeks. I still can't understand why people continue to spew this nonsense. How did this even become a Republican talking point?
ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: Yes, so "Fuzzies and furries" is what he said. It's basically, as you said, this false claim that kids are dressing up as cats, using litter boxes, in schools. We saw Bolduc could go a little bit further there, and say that kids were jumping out, and hissing at each other, and licking each other.
Now, look, Furries are a real subculture. People will go to conventions. They'll sometimes dress, as animals. There are no litter boxes. There are no litter boxes, at the conventions.
There are no litter boxes in the schools. People at home are probably asking themselves where did, this even come from.
[21:30:00]
The earliest that we could find was a Michigan School Board meeting, at the end of 2021. Let's just take a listen to what was said there
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA HANSEN (ph), COMMUNITY MEMBER: It was addressed by a child, a couple months ago that they are put in an environment, where there are kids that identify as a furry, a cat or a dog, whatever.
And so, yesterday, I heard that at least one of our schools, in our town, has a - in one of the unisex bathrooms, a litter box, for the kids that identify as cats. And I am really disturbed by that.
And I will do some more investigation, on that. I know it's going on nationwide. I know it is. It's part of the agenda that's being pushed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KACZYNSKI: Now look, this claim did not really go viral, until about a month later, when the Chairwoman, of the Michigan Republican Party, shared it, on her Facebook page. And then from there, we saw various conservative influencers, and media personalities, share it themselves. And it's sort of taken off from there.
TAPPER: So Bolduc, the New Hampshire Republican Senate nominee, he's just the latest Republican candidate, to say this.
But we've heard it from others before. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT JENSEN, (R) MINNESOTA GOVERNOR CANDIDATE: Why do we have litter boxes in some of the school districts so kids can pee in them, because they identify as furry? We've lost our minds.
HEIDI GANAHL, (R) COLORADO GOVERNOR CANDIDATE: Not many people know that we have furries in Colorado schools. Yes, kids identifying as cats. It sounds absolutely ridiculous, but it's happening all over Colorado, and schools are tolerating it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, these are the Republican gubernatorial nominees, in Minnesota and Colorado. What's the thinking behind pushing this nonsense? Obviously, it's anti-Trans. Is it helping them politically?
KACZYNSKI: Yes, I think you hit the point, right there, which is Republicans basically see this as a way to say, "Look, how ridiculous the Democrats are, when it comes to things, like gender identity, and transgender students." But then, in this instance, themselves, they, just kind of look ridiculous, themselves.
TAPPER: All right, Andrew Kaczynski, thanks so much, for that fact- check. Really appreciate it.
Coming up, is another landmark Supreme Court decision about to fall? Justices are now weighing ending affirmative action in college admissions. Are decades of precedent about to be overturned again? Next.
[21:35:00]
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TAPPER: Big day, at the U.S. Supreme Court, today, arguments indicating that another decades-long precedent could soon be overturned, could.
This time, it's affirmative action. For nearly five hours, justices heard arguments, on two cases, concerning race-conscious admissions decisions, at Harvard and the University of North Carolina.
The conservative majority appeared skeptical of affirmative action. They questioned how diverse classrooms are beneficial to education.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS: I've heard the word "diversity" quite a few times and I don't have a clue what it means.
DAVID HINOJOSA, ATTORNEY ARGUING IN SUPPORT OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BEFORE SCOTUS, LAWYERS' COMMITTEE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS UNDER LAW: Race in itself.
JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO: That's not only enough (ph) may be considered a plus factor?
HINOJOSA: Yes, Your Honor.
ALITO: And, therefore, those who don't get the plus factor have what is essentially a negative factor.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: The three liberal justices seemed to disagree. They argued that universities are looking at students as a whole. And they suggested that without affirmative action, minority enrollment will drop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTICE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON: First of all, the university is not requiring anybody to give their race at the beginning. When you give your race, you're not getting any special points.
No one's automatically getting in because race is being used.
JUSTICE SONIA SOTOMAYOR: Where can you point into the record, where merely checking the box standing alone as one factor got somebody in?
JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN: And I thought that part of what it meant to be an American and to believe in American pluralism, is that actually our institutions, you know, are reflective of who we are as, as a people in all our variety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: With me now, one of the attorneys, who argued, in favor, of affirmative action, in front of court, today, David Hinojosa.
David, thanks so much, for joining us, today. Congratulations. Your first argument before the U.S. Supreme Court, that's got to be a big highlight for an attorney.
How do you think your arguments were received?
It seems as though not just after today's arguments, but just what I've been reading, from colleges, and universities, all over the country, is they think that this Court is going to kill affirmative action, no matter what.
HINOJOSA: Well, we've seen this, a few times, already, over the last 20 years, when people thought that either affirmative action programs would be turned - reversed at the University of Texas, at Austin, with the University of Michigan, nearly 20 years ago, had two cases, and the court actually held - upheld race-conscious admissions.
So, it seems like everybody is always doom and gloom around these issues. But what ultimately ends up prevailing, is the reasonableness of the law, and race-conscious admissions, as one way, of helping underrepresented students of color, access, higher education. And these are highly talented students of color, who often are overlooked, in the normal admissions process.
So, we feel really confident, even after today. And we see all the headlines. But judges always have tough questions. That's the reason why we have oral arguments.
TAPPER: So, one of the key arguments, today, from conservatives, one of some - one line of tough questioning, is that defenders of affirmative action, such as yourself, in college admissions, cannot articulate a specific end point.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS: I don't see how, I don't see how you can say that the program will ever end.
ALITO: What is your goal and how will a court ever be able to determine whether your goal has been reached?
JUSTICE AMY CONEY BARRETT: And I gather, you know, Justice Alito, saying when is it end? When is your sunset? When will you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: And as you know, better than I, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote in her majority opinion, in 1978, quote, "We expect that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest approved today."
So, we're six years shy of Justice O'Connor's 25-year goal. How long do you think affirmative action should continue?
[21:40:00]
HINOJOSA: Well, it was an aspirational goal. It wasn't a hard deadline set. No matter what the discussions, we're leading, today, you could easily read O'Connor's opinion, and it is not no hard sunset. It's trying to hope for the better of America. And we actually hoped that we would be there, in 25 years.
But racial inequality persists in so many different ways, especially in our K-12 systems. And we're not going to be quite there yet, as the attorneys, for the University, shared today.
But we do know what that endpoint is. We do know that that endpoint is when that they're able to achieve the educational benefits of diversity that the universities set for themselves, right? That's wholly within their responsibility, and rights, is to identify what those goals are. They are measuring their progress towards those goals.
And, in the meantime, once they identify, a race-neutral alternative, some other mechanism, like a percentage plan, or a mixture of recruitment, and scholarships, and the like, where they don't have to consider someone's race, as just one factor among several? Then, that's the end point that will happen.
It's going to happen on a case-by-case basis. Every university sets their own goals. They have measurements. And those measurements can be challenged. They weren't challenged, in this case, by the petitioner. Most of the arguments the petitioners raised, frankly, are in their briefs, but they're not in the evidentiary record, back at the Court of Appeals or the District Court.
TAPPER: So Justice Kavanaugh argued that there are other better ways, in his view, to achieve diversity, at universities. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH: It would be permissible for the court to say that you have to eliminate things like legacy children of donors, if you could obtain a sufficient - meet its diversity goals was your word - by doing so and doing race-neutral admissions. Do I have that correct?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What Kavanaugh seems to be saying is that college and universities could stop admitting legacy students, and children of donors, which often benefits White students, and then that would help achieve diversity, without taking race into account. What do you make of that argument?
HINOJOSA: Well, there's a couple of things, there. One is that it all depends on how much of an impact that is having, how much of an impact, does it matter, whether or not you are the descendants of an alumni, right? If it's not making too much impact, like at the University of North Carolina.
SFFA's expert had analyzed this, and said, "You know what? Legacy admissions actually aren't making much of a difference." So, if you turn off legacy admissions, you're not going to end up with all these seats that become, available.
And who's going to grab those seats anyway? Are there going to be other White applicants, who have been able to push up their test scores--
TAPPER: Yes.
HINOJOSA: --artificially, through test prep, and that sort of thing? Or are you actually going to capture, real racial diversity across? And so, it all depends on what universities are doing. Not everybody gives bumps to donors and the like.
And so again, it's unfortunately, it's a case-by-case basis. And that's how and why this should not - these cases should not be ruled with an across-the-board axe to affirmative action.
TAPPER: And then, quickly, if you could? There are other methods suggested as well. One that I've heard before is look at ZIP codes, so that you can take kids from predominately Black or Latino neighborhoods, or socioeconomically-challenged neighborhoods, et cetera. And that might do the same thing, except it's not taking race into account. Is that viable?
HINOJOSA: So, one, it's mostly theoretical. So, the experts in the UNC case had actually looked at geographic diversity, and it still wasn't meeting the levels. And what's worse?
TAPPER: Because there's just not enough applicants from poorer sections there? Is that a-- HINOJOSA: In part, because of that. But also, you're looking at a broad spectrum of diversity, right? You want viewpoints, diverse viewpoints, diverse experiences.
TAPPER: Geography, yes.
HINOJOSA: Yes, all sorts of different diversity metrics that come in. So you don't necessarily want solely the, all the poor Black and Brown children, to come in.
TAPPER: Yes.
[21:45:00]
HINOJOSA: Because then that's just going to feed into the stereotypes that universities are, they're trying to fend off. So, you want that intra-racial diversity, because you want a broader perspectives, broader experiences. So sometimes, those things that supposedly look good on paper, like ZIP codes, don't actually work, in reality, and practice, when you look at broader scopes of diversity.
TAPPER: All right, David Hinojosa, I know you've had a long day.
HINOJOSA: Yes.
TAPPER: Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Congratulations, again, on your first Supreme Court case. It's got to be a professional thrill.
HINOJOSA: Absolutely. Thank you very much, Jake.
TAPPER: Appreciate you, you coming here.
We often talk about American history to help put the present into context.
Coming up, we're going to take a fascinating look with Documentarian Extraordinaire, Ken Burns. Join us, as we go back in time, through some amazing photographs, he's compiled, including one of an "America First" rally held, long before Donald Trump was even born. That's next.
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TAPPER: The recent surge in public displays of anti-Semitism continued, over the weekend. On Friday, these banners, reading "End Jewish supremacy in America," and quote, "Honk if you know it's the Jews," were hung, from a highway overpass, in Jacksonville, Florida.
[21:50:00]
That incident coming, after similar banners were displayed above the 405 Freeway, in Los Angeles, those in support of the anti-Semitic remarks made by rapper, Ye, formerly known as Kanye West. On Saturday, the message, "Kanye was right about the Jews," popped up, again, this time outside of TIAA Bank Field, during a Florida-Georgia football game. At the same time, Brooklyn Nets basketball star, Kyrie Irving, has been defending how he promoted an anti-Semitic film, one that includes an invented quote, from former Senate aide, Harold Rosenthal. Rosenthal was killed by terrorists, in 1976. The fake quote was invented, by White supremacists, in 1978. Nice source material, Kyrie!
All these anti-Semitic messages, bringing us back to a different time, in America, when Jews were the victims, of open widespread discrimination, across the United States.
It's one of the many themes, in a brand-new book, called "Our America: A Photographic History," which shows photos of some of the darkest, but also some of the brightest moments, in U.S. history. With me now is Ken Burns, the acclaimed documentarian, who compiled the photographs, for this book.
Ken, good to see you again.
In your book, you include this photo, of a Jewish immigrant, from 1919, noting that millions of Jews immigrated to America, over the first few decades of the 20th Century.
At first, they were discriminated against, in the job and housing markets. But when America entered World War I, more than 250,000 Jews enlisted. This was the beginning of Jews beginning to become fully accepted, into American society, or so I thought.
Tell us more about the significance of this time period.
KEN BURNS, AUTHOR, "OUR AMERICA," AWARD WINNING DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: Well, it's really when we had open borders, from 1870 to 1920, and millions and millions of people came in, including a lot of Central and Eastern European Jews. And that beautiful photograph, by E.O. Hoppe, from 1919, I think, it was, sort of speaks to the kind of thoughtfulness of the experience.
But back in 1872, Grant had barred Jews, from several southern States, rescinded by Abraham Lincoln. So, there's always been, in American society, this undercurrent of anti-Semitism. It's everywhere in the world. And it's something that we have to push back about. And we're going to see it in every generation.
After the doors sort of swung shut, after 1920, there was a backlash. This is the Replacement Theory, we're hearing now, first bubbled up in the early decades, of the 20th Century. And so, the Johnson-Reed Immigration Act of 1924, essentially made miniscule quotas, from countries that had a large Jewish population, and expanded quotas, from the so-called Nordic, or Hitler, would later say, Aryan Nations of Northern Europe.
So, you begin to see these patterns. And what happens is it disappears, it becomes sort of pushed down, and then it comes back up. And I think what we're seeing is such a disturbing trend, the ADL, reports, unbelievable upsurge in anti-Semitic incidents.
TAPPER: Yes. BURNS: First time in decades that it's been at this level.
TAPPER: So, speaking of things, being pushed down, and then coming back up again, there's this photograph, from Madison Square Garden, in New York City, 1941.
BURNS: Yes.
TAPPER: It's of a quote "America First" rally. Obviously, that's a phrase we're familiar with now, since it was President Trump's campaign slogan.
Charles Lindbergh was the head of the America First Committee. It's a group that supported White supremacy. Lindbergh claimed that the British, and the Jews, and the Roosevelt administration, were war agitators. Thousands of people packed this rally. They waved Nazi flags, underneath American flags.
BURNS: Yes, it's this really disturbing undercurrent. Particularly, their chief spokesman was, for a time, Charles Lindbergh. And there were many, many prominent Americans, who subscribed to this.
It was not just an anti-war movement, but it was a kind of anti-Jewish influence. And of course, they repeated all the old tropes that we hear today, and we've heard for centuries, about the undue influence of Jews. It's complete poppycock. But it's there.
He gives a speech in Des Moines, Iowa, that goes way too far. And suddenly, there's a big reaction. And people stop, and say, "Wait, this is the voice of Charles Lindbergh, but the words of Adolf Hitler." And he, basically, the America First begins to shrink.
And, of course, the Japanese attack. And then, the Germans declare war on us. And all of that goes, by the way.
TAPPER: Yes.
BURNS: And yet, during the war, we're still not fighting to save the Jews. We're still not letting the Jews in, where we're going to end fascism, but it's not to save the people, who were in most dire need of being rescued from fascism.
TAPPER: Yes. And your recent documentary that you did with Lynn Novick really captures that well.
One last lighter note, if I can? In honor of the World Series, I do want to end with this photo. It's of the first-ever World Series, 1903, the Boston American team later--
BURNS: Yes.
TAPPER: --later the Red Sox faced the Pittsburgh Pirates. The game was held in Boston. Thousands of Boston fans paraded the field with drums, yelling, banging, trying to, distract the Pirates. The crazy fans were dubbed, the "Royal Rooters." Boston eventually won the World Series.
BURNS: Right.
TAPPER: And The Boston Journal headline read, "The Boston Americans are now champions of the world."
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I'm a Phillies fan. So, I know something about crazy fans. But I don't know that we would ever be allowed to do anything like that.
BURNS: Jake, the Royal Rooters were something else. They had songs. They had distracting whistles. This turned out to be a best of nine game series. The Pittsburgh team won the first three, and then the Boston team came back and won. And it was the first of what would eventually be the Boston Red Sox World Championships. But these are about as rabid as you get, with theme songs, and drums, and fans, throughout the stands with chants.
TAPPER: Yes.
BURNS: It's really a wonderful time. As you see, everybody's dressed up, the way no one is today, at a baseball game.
TAPPER: Well, I'll take you to a Phillies game. And you'll see. You'll see the legacy of that.
Ken Burns, thank you.
His new book, here it is out, "Our America." It's out, tomorrow. An amazing, gorgeous book, for your home library.
We'll be right back.
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TAPPER: Thank you so much for joining us, tonight. You can follow me, on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and the TikTok, @jaketapper.
Our coverage continues now, with lovable, loyal Laura.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN CO-HOST, CNN TONIGHT: She gets two?
TAPPER: And awesome, adorable, Alisyn.
CAMEROTA: Wow!
TAPPER: I liked that. I did a little alliteration there. And I challenged myself.
