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Liz Cheney Show Her Support To Democrats; Liz Cheney Garnering Support For 2024; Paul Pelosi's Attacker Intends To Harm Speaker Pelosi; Donald Trump Not Testifying To January 6 Committee; Players Suspended After Engaging In A Brawl; Democracy Should Be On The Ballot. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 01, 2022 - 22:00   ET



JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Thank you so much for joining us tonight. You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and the TikTok at Jake Tapper. Tomorrow we will talk to late night star, Jimmy Kimmel is going to join us to look at the week's midterms and talk about the state of late night. That's tomorrow at 9 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN.

Our coverage continues now with Laura Coates, who's like the Reese Hoskins of CNN and Alisyn Camerota who's like the Bryce Harper of CNN. Not that I'm thinking about the Phillies right now, but hi, Laura. Hi, Alisyn. How you doing?

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Take me out to the ballgame.


COATES: There you go.

TAPPER: Yes. Philly is up seven. Nothing top of the six. Looking good. Don't jinx. No jinx. No jinx.

COATES: But I mean who, who's watching, right? Yesterday it was, we were out hot trick or treating and it was rained out practically. So, I mean good that it happened tonight.


CAMEROTA: I'm just astonished. I've never been compared to a sports figure ever.


TAPPER: And I gave you Bryce Harper also.

CAMEROTA: So, I'm really impressed.

TAPPER: I mean, that's --

CAMEROTA: That's good.

TAPPER: That's big.

CAMEROTA: That's big. It's big.

TAPPER: Yes. That's pretty big.

CAMEROTA: That's good.

TAPPER: It's pretty cool.

CAMEROTA: Fantastic. OK, awesome.

COATES: Stick with the cracker jacks and a pretzel. OK. Alisyn, there you.

CAMEROTA: That's why I go to the game.


COATES: We're going to do with that. That's wonderful.

CAMEROTA: That's right.

TAPPER: Thanks, guys. Have a good show.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Jake.

COATES: Thank you. And good every -- good evening, everyone. I'm Laura Coates in Washington.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota in New York. This is CNN TONIGHT.

One week from tonight, they'll be counting ballots in states across the country, which is why the heavy weights from President Biden and Vice President Harris to former Presidents Obama and Trump and Vice President Mike Pence will all be out on the campaign trail this week. So, who will make the biggest difference?

COATES: Plus, there are new shocking details tonight about just what happened with alleged attacker broke into Nancy Pelosi's home in the middle of the night and attacked her husband. And what else he said that he was planning. A newly released court document, quote, "the defendant telling officers and medics at the scene, quote, " I didn't really want to hurt him, but you know, this was a suicide mission." Unquote.

And going on to name others that he planned to target, Alisyn, including several prominent state and federal politicians and their relatives. We're also staying at this late hour that the Capitol Police apparently first learned of the attack via a live camera feed from the home.

More on that coming up. We got a lot to talk about tonight, Alisyn. So here with me in Washington, D.C. before we turn it over to New York, is CNN political analyst, Margaret Talev, also Democratic strategist Paul Begala and Kevin Madden who was a top aide to Mitt Romney's Presidential campaign. Glad to have you all here with you.

I want to take a step back for a second if we can, because you know, when the heavy hitters come out, it's normally an issue of this is the consequential time. I don't even remember at this point in time of even the presidential elections to have so many of the heavy weights coming out across the country in this way.

What does this tell you about maybe concerns that Democrats might be having about being able to hold onto the major?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they ought to be concerned, but social should Republican midterm elections, by the way, are always about churn every single midterm in the last 20 years, either the House or the Senate flip.

The Democrats have both the House and Senate. They don't want to flip either, but the odds just historically are really against them. This one even more so because the margins are so thin. So, it makes sense to bring out Barack Obama and Joe Biden, it makes sense for the Republicans bring out Mike Pence.

Trump almost helps and hurts about equally, maybe hurts more than he helps to tell you the truth. I'd be a little more scared, scared of him if I were Republican. The interesting thing though is not the partisans trying to get parsons out. It's Liz Cheney, the former number three Republican in the House endorsed today, Tim Ryan.


BEGALA: The moderate conservative Democrat in Ohio. That's a big deal. By the way, J.C. Watts, an old friend of mine who was a senior Republican congressman, still a Republican endorsed the Democrat running for governor in his home state of Oklahoma. Those things, usually this is just about getting your partisans out,

but when you have someone from the other side and heavy hitters on the other side, like Liz Chaney, J.C. Watts, that's -- that's kind of really interesting to me, for the -- for the Democrats.

COATES: I wonder where it tells about the ability, you know, in the event that the parties, God forbid, have to work together and on Capitol Hill and get things done and be bipartisan as you're explaining. You know, I had a conversation with Congressman Jim Jordan yesterday on my radio show on Sirius XM, and he actually had something to say that I want you to hear about what he thought would be the inability to have bipartisanship. Listen to this.


REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): You know, I'm happy to work with Democrats if they're really -- if it's something I truly believe would benefit the country. And I say this, and I don't mean this in a -- I'm one of my best friends. I use this example all the time. One of my good friend is Dennis Kucinich. And he's crazy left and he thinks I'm one of those no good conservatives, but we are friends. And you could have a real debate. Dennis was an old school liberal who believes in the first amendment. Today's left, I don't know how you work with them. When today's left says, if you don't agree with me, we're going to call you racist and we're going to try to cancel you. So how do you work with people like that?


COATES: Now Margaret couldn't help I think you chuckled a little bit the idea of the bipartisanship comment from Jim Jordan and the congressman. What do you make of that sentiment though? Because there is a chance, of course in Congress that people have to work together, but the plan is that it might be impossible.


MARGARET TALEV, MANAGING EDITOR, AXIOS: Well, the two cases we were just talking about of people being will -- Republicans being willing to cross party lines, are a Republican who lost her primary and is running on a mission to make sure Trump never gets elected again.

BEGALA: Right.

TALEV: And a former Republican, you know, leader in Congress. So I think, I think Jim Jordan, I'm laughing because the idea that Dennis Kucinich is Jim Jordan's best friend is absurd.

KEVIN MADDEN, FORMER AIDE TO MITT ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: By the way, I don't remember any Dennis Kucinich/Jim Jordan bills being introduced when they were together.

COATES: Right.

TALEV: It's absurd. But I think --

COATES: They were friends. There you go.

TALEV: I've really seen two different things. I think on the Democratic side, you're seeing, several Democrats who are never going to run for president again, coming out to try to boost turnout. And on the Republican side, you're seeing every Republican who wants to be a player in the 2024 primary come out at the last minute so they can have a piece of victory.

I mean, so it's, it's asymmetric. It's both -- both are about turnout and both are about turning out different parts of the base. You know, Glenn Youngkin has the ability to turn out more center slightly right Republicans, whereas, you know, Ted Cruz or Mike Pence might have a different audience. But Barack Obama is not running for president again.


TALEV: You know? So, I think they're really kind of two different plays here. The Trump factor is definitely interesting. Donald Trump can obviously turn out components of the base. MADDEN: Right.

TALEV: But you know where Donald Trump is not campaigning in the final days of the campaign as far as I know, the state of Georgia.

COATES: What do you make of that?

MADDEN: Well, I think that a race down there that previously was all about the getting out the suburbs. Donald Trump, I think has to know, and I think anybody who's trying to win down there knows that Donald Trump is toxic in the suburbs. And so, I think that race, you know, the -- all those collar counties around. Atlanta that's going to make or break this race, Donald Trump is not helping in that race.

BEGALA: Right. The formula is turnout versus turnoff.


BEGALA: Right. Barack Obama in my party, I take him anywhere.


BEGALA: He turns out the moderates. He turns out the liberals. He's great. Mr. Trump telling you he turns off more suburban Republicans --


BEGALA: -- than he turns on. But if you're six days out and you haven't gotten the MAGA lunatics, you're not getting them. So, I just wouldn't --


MADDEN: I think that applies to, you know, these last-minute campaigning by big names overall.


MADDEN: Do they really make a big difference? Do they really drive the amount of turnout that you need? I think if it, you're at this point in the race and you haven't made the case on your own, there's very little chance that Barack Obama is going to be able to come in in the last week and do it for you.

COATES: Well, I tell you what, Congressman Jordan, one of the points he's raising, he really highlights, we're going to talk about later in the show as well, just how prominent the idea of wokeism, so to speak, and the idea of trying to use these statements, these lightning rods to try to have a subliminal message being sent plays time and time and time again.

You know, Alisyn, when you think about where we are right now, and we are six days away. And frankly, a week from tomorrow is when we're really going to know a lot more, right? The day after election.

CAMEROTA: Maybe. COATES: Maybe Thursday. Maybe you'll do TGIF.


COATES: Who knows? All we know is it is a week or so away, week adjacent. Is that a good way to think about it?

CAMEROTA: Yes. Yes. But I would say everybody's going to have to settle in and get comfortable because it's possible that it's going to take a long time for the final results to come in.

But, Laura, we were listening with rapt attention to your panel. So, let's bring in our folks here. We have CNN political commentator, S.E. Cupp, Elzie Granderson, op-ed columnist for the Los Angeles Times and CNN senior political analyst, John Avlon.

Great to have you guys here with us tonight. OK, so let's talk about somebody who's doing something very interesting. Congresswoman Liz Cheney is doing something she says she's never done before, and she is campaigning with a Democrat.

So, she's with Elissa Slotkin in Michigan. Here is how Congresswoman Cheney explains what she's doing there.


REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): This is, by the way, the first time I have ever campaigned for a Democrat. And if we want to ensure the survival of our republic, we have to walk away from politics as usual. We have to walk away. We have to stand up every one of us and say, we're going to do what's right for this country.

We're going to look beyond partisan politics. If the people in our party are not doing the job they need to do, then we're going to vote for the people in the other party because we are Americans above all else.



CAMEROTA: Interesting, right, S.E.?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's remarkable. Listen, I, you know, I've been covering politics for a long time. I know Liz Cheney. She's one of the most conservative people I've ever met. I mean, she's to the right of me on many issues, and here she is endorsing a Democrat for the first time.

Now, it should go without saying, I know Elissa as well. She's a Republican's Democrat. I mean, she comes from the Department of Defense. She's very moderate.

CAMEROTA: I was wondering about that because there are a lot of --

CUPP: Yes. CAMEROTA: -- election deniers out there, so obviously she wants to, Liz Cheney wants to campaign against the election deniers, but she's chosen --

CUPP: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- Elissa Slotkin to funnel her energy into for a reason.


CUPP: And Tim Ryan, she's given some attention to, too. He's also, I get that as well. So, this is actually a fairly natural combination, Liz Chaney and Elissa Slotkin.


But the point Liz is making is not that she's embracing probably most of Slotkin's principles and policies. She won't. She's saying what matters more is keeping democracy safe. Because you can come together or figure out policy disagreements. You can't unbreak democracy.

And so, shoring that up first with people like Elissa Slotkin and Tim Ryan and maybe some other Democrats that she could in the last few days, you know, come behind is more important to her.

CAMEROTA: Let's play --


CUPP: It's remarkable.

CAMEROTA: Let's also play what she said about Congressman Tim Ryan today when she was asked if she would, if she lived in Ohio, would she vote for him? He's a Democrat.


UNKNOWN: So, who do you prefer in this race?

CHENEY: I would not vote for J.D. Vance.

UNKNOWN: OK. So, if you were a Buckeye, if Buckeye state voters, you'd be voting for Tim Ryan?

CHENEY: I would.


CAMEROTA: What I thought, Elzie, so interesting is she could've just said, I would sit it out, you know, I'm not going to vote for the Republican, so I wouldn't vote. I mean, that's what a lot of, you know, hard line party loyalists say. But she said she would vote for the Democrat.

ELZIE GRANDERSON, OP-ED COLUMNIST, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Yes. Because it's very smart ff she still is thinking about running for president. Remember when she was in the January 6th committee, and if you listen to a lot of, sort of, middle the road Democrats, they were like, my gosh, she sounds amazing. I would vote for her.

And then it -- it's a legit thing because they -- because a lot of --


CUPP: Well, they need to be reminded of how conservative she is.

GRANDERSON: Yes. They needed to --

CUPP: And they will not.

CAMEROTA: They forgot to remind.

GRANDERSON: They needed to be reminded and then they got reminded.

CUPP: Yes. Yes.

GRANDERSON: So how do you solve that? You begin by doing things like this, aligning yourself up with Democrats, because if you are still thinking about it, you're going to need allies on this side of the aisle to say, no, she's not one of the crazies, and this is one of the ways you do it.

I don't think she's only doing it for that reason, but trust me --


CUPP: I'm skeptical of that. I'm skeptical.

GRANDERSON: -- that is a really smart strategy. And she's --


AVLON: Yes, Elzie.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, John.

AVLON: Listen, the first time I think I've ever said this about it to you. I think you're being too cynical. I think that it's not like you. Look, like, you know, I think Liz Cheney is being genuinely motivated by desire to put, you know, country over party and saying that the only issue that ultimately matters is democracy, but as Elzie pointed out, in the case of Slotkin, here's someone she shares a lot of values with in national security.

CUPP: Yes.

AVLON: For Tim Ryan, who by the way is one of the best communicators right now on the Democratic side.

CUPP: Yes.

AVLON: And is speaking to a lot of populous issues that can resonate with voters who might have voted for Donald Trump. I think there's a lot of overlap there too, but she's actually making a principled point about this election and we need to see more people going across party line.

CAMEROTA: But does this help Slotkin, I'll let you respond quickly. And then we'll --


GRANDERSON: My only question is, this year, did she not float the idea that she may run for president? Does she have a party?

CAMEROTA: Sort of.

AVLON: No. Well, --

GRANDERSON: Does she have a party?

AVLON: She doesn't right now.

GRANDERSON: So that means she's an independent.


GRANDERSON: How do you become an independent?

CUPP: But I keep having --


GRANDERSON: By representing what?

CUPP: But I keep having to remind Democrats --


GRANDERSON: Both sides of the aisle. Right?

AVLON: God bless --

CUPP: I keep having to remind Democrats who admire Liz Cheney for all the right reasons that she is -- she abandoned Trump because he wasn't conservative enough. Like that's how to the right she is. And while she's making the right stand now, this would be a terrible way, I think to win back voters that have left her because they thought she was a traitor. she's not getting Tim Ryan voters. I like Tim Ryan a lot. She's not getting his voters in two years, four years, six years.

She's not getting Elissa Slotkin voters. She could only get very far right voters and they have to have amnesia about what she did to Trump in the party.

CAMEROTA: But hold on. To my question, does it help the Democrat that she is campaigning.



AVLON: Yes. In districts like Elissa Slotkin's district in Ohio, which went for Donald Trump. You know, 53, got 53 percent of the vote. It helps create -- it's a third party validator issue, right? Which is that you're more likely to believe that this person is not, you know, the far-left wacko, the Republicans trying to paint him as. If it's someone as conservative as Liz Chaney who's put her career on the line to defend democracy, saying, you know what? I'd vote for this person because we care about the country, we care about democracy, and we agree on a couple issues. And that matters more.

CUPP: I think it gives the Republicans permission to go --

GRANDERSON: I just don't think --


AVLON: Yes, it does.

CUPP: -- ahead and vote for an Elissa Slotkin or it's Tim Ryan.

GRANDERSON: I'm trying to figure out though, why the two of you think it has to be either, or, not an and? Why can't both things be true?

CUPP: How --

GRANDERSON: Why can't she be legitimately defending democracy while also being cognizant of how this would benefit her if she decided to continue on politics?

AVLON: It can be, but that's so many moves out, right? First of all, as an independent --


GRANDERSON: She is a brilliant woman.

AVLON: She is a brilliant woman. But getting on the ballot third -- in 50 states as an independent candidate is incredibly difficult. It's just a lot of moves out. She has burned her bridges with Republicans right now. And she is too conservative on policies, to S.E.'s point for a typical Democrat.

CUPP: Yes.

AVLON: Now look, I am all in favor of third parties and independent candidates running all day long. But that is so many moves out for this to be a bank shot that she's thinks --

CUPP: Yes.

AVLON: -- it's smart to get elected president by elect -- endorsement Elissa Slotkin.


CAMEROTA: All right.

GRANDERSON: -- either she's brilliant or she's not.

AVLON: I think -- I think both --


GRANDERSON: Both, right?

AVLON: -- things can be true. Both things can be true.

CAMEROTA: All right.

CAMEROTA: Hold that thought for a moment. Laura, this is part of the chess game and we're all analyzing it here.

COATES: We are. I mean, think about it. I mean, the one distinction was going to come up, of course, is no matter how much support there might be for say, a Congresswoman Liz Cheney.


I mean, today is November 1st, and I think they were calling that Roe- vember at one point, right?


COATES: And the idea what would happen. In fact, I mean, just listen to what the Senate candidate out in North Carolina, Alisyn, had to say, I was speaking to her earlier about her stance on codifying Roe v. Wade. That's going to be a bit of a litmus test here going forward. Listen to this.


CHERI BEASLEY (D), NORTH CAROLINA SENATE CANDIDATE: Congressman Ted Butt is leading the charge and aligned itself with the most extreme faction of its party, on an absolute ban on abortion without exceptions for rape, incest, or risk to mother's health.

Anytime our freedoms are on the line, I will be fighting for North Carolina for this country, and I will be fighting hard to make sure that Roe versus Wade becomes the law of the land.


COATES: This is somebody who was the chief justice of the North Carolina the Supreme Court. I mean, there this notion of Roe-vember and the idea of the true barometer of what's going to get people out to vote and distinguish the Cheney's from the Slotkin and others is going to be this issue of Roe-vember, ultimately, they think.

CAMEROTA: Well, they need to keep reminding voters of that. I mean, because, you know, because the momentum. The Roe-mentum.

CUPP: Yes. AVLON: If you will.


CUPP: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Has passed. So, I can see what she's doing there, which is reminding all of the voters, this is still what I say.

CUPP: -- Roe-minding.

CAMEROTA: Roe-minding. Wow. Wow. We're on a roll.

GRANDERSON: My dad jokes, if you know what I mean.

AVLON: Yes, I got you covered. You got at least, Bob.


CAMEROTA: Wow. More of this, Laura, when we come back.

COATES: I'm loving all of the dad jokes that are happening on your panel for some reason. It's wonderful. It's beautiful. I love, it's a highlight of my night.

But you know what's coming up ahead, everyone. I got to tell you, Alisyn, it's pretty stunning what we're hearing now. Revelations about the brutal attack on Nancy Pelosi's husband. I mean, while the -- why the alleged attacker said he was on a suicide mission and the other people that he was also targeting.

And plus, new tonight, the Capitol Police first learned of the attack at Pelosi's home about 10 minutes after through a live camera feed from their house. We're going to talk about it.



COATES: Shocking new details what would happen during the brutal attack on Paul Pelosi. Newly released court documents has the crime involved great violence and great bodily harm. It also details Pelosi's struggle with his attacker revealing that he was left unconscious for about three minutes.

CAMEROTA: Yes, this is worse than we knew, Laura.


CAMEROTA: I mean, the alleged attacker I should mentioned David DePape appeared in San Francisco court today, but we didn't know these details. I mean, it sounds like, a bigger struggle and that he was more grievously hurt than we thought. So, let's get to some answers.

Joining us now is CNN chief medical correspondent, Director Sanjay Gupta, and CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, John Miller.

John, I want to start with you because we have a lot more information today about the attack and what police saw and how it went down. This is from this new court filing. This is the motion to detain DePape. It says that basically what -- when police entered the two men were struggling with the hammer, but Mr. Pelosi could not maintain his grip on the hammer.

A second later, the defendant wrenched the hammer away from Mr. Pelosi immediately stepped back and lunged at Mr. Pelosi, striking Mr. Pelosi in the head at full force with the hammer, which knocked Mr. Pelosi unconscious. The officers rushed into the house, tackled the defendant, and disarmed him.

Mr. Pelosi remained unresponsive for about three minutes, waking up in a pool of his own blood. We didn't know how bad that was.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it's it was said early on that he was knocked out cold. Because there were questions about, well, why didn't we have his full account earlier? And they said because he was unconscious. And then, you know, in intensive care. But the detention memorandum is just filled with details that fill in all the blanks of some of the things we've been asking a few days, which is he's asleep in bed and he is literally woken up. This is according to the affidavit by Mr. DePape who says, are you Paul Pelosi?

CAMEROTA: Right. Standing over his bed.

MILLER: Right. And he says, you know, where's Nancy? She's not here. When is she coming back? She's in Washington. It'll be a few days. And then he says, I'm going to tie you up. And Pelosi's account was, I was still groggy. I had just been awakened.

And you can imagine in that lifestyle where there's always security people around and people coming and going that, you know, perhaps somebody who was on the wrong shift, you know, couldn't find Nancy Pelosi.

But when the guy says, I'm going to tie you up, he realizes, OK, this isn't the detail. He tries to get to the elevator. He's blocked. He goes to the bathroom because his phone is in there and it's on charged and he calls 911. And the suspect, DePape is standing three feet away from him and he is having this conversation where he's trying to bridge the gap between being specific enough with the operator.

There's a man who's come to see my wife. It's Nancy Pelosi. I don't know him. And he said, you know, who is he? And the man answers, my name is David. And he says, and you don't know him. He said, I don't. And David says, no, we're friends.

And he's got zip ties in one hand. A hammer in the other hand takes him downstairs. He realizes the police are going to be there and that this is going to end differently than he planned. And when the police knock on the door, he's still got Mr. Pelosi by the arm. But he opens the door with his left hand. CAMEROTA: Pelosi does.

MILLER: He steps back and then tries to grab the top of the hammer while he's holding the bottom and the rest of you just read to him.

CAMEROTA: It's just more frightening than we thought. And I guess the reason I said, Sanjay, that we didn't know the extent of it was because in the very first statement that Speaker Pelosi's office put out, it's said Mr. Pelosi was taken to the hospital where he's receiving excellent medical care. He's expected to make a full recovery.

That made it seem as though, I think it was more minor than skull fracture and being unconscious for three minutes.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, I think it surprised me as well. There's a couple reasons. Obviously, this was a significant sort of blow to the head. Now, when someone strikes you with a hammer, I mean, you could, you could kill somebody, or you might cause a skull fracture, something like that, which it sounds like he had.

What is sort of interesting is that the doctors, as you read, even before he went to the operating room, they were already saying he's expected to make a full recovery. And now they have more data at this point. They've probably done scans of the brain trying to determine was there bleeding that was on top of the brain or within the brain.


And it sounds like thankfully there wasn't. So, this blow to the head, which sounds like from that report, a full, full force, so like really wound up and you know, you measure all sorts of things. The amount of force, the width of the actual hammer, which side of the hammer.

All these things you'd want to know from a trauma perspective. But whatever it was, it certainly at least stunned him enough, caused bleeding, obviously, but stunned him enough where it sounds like they had difficulty rousing him for at least a few minutes. Unconscious or not that's a little bit difficult to tell sometimes in these situations, but it obviously caused a significant injury.

But then he was able to wake up, answer questions ultimately and things like that. Scans done because they're worried but not so concerned that they're not telling the family already he's going to make a full recovery.

CAMEROTA: But why is he still in the ICU now?

GUPTA: That's a good question. You know, what I would say is that sometimes it's based on medical reasons, plus other. Meaning, you know, ICUs are one of the most secure places in the hospital. You don't get as many people coming in and out, you know, if you're trying to put security around it.

So, a lot of times, even if somebody is sort of maybe ready to go to a general care floor. They would otherwise go to a general care floor. They might keep him in the ICU longer. He's 82 years old. I don't know what his other health is like, but there may be other things they're monitoring.

He had anesthesia, had this wound to his head, had an operation on his skull, I think he had something done to his arms as well, or his right arm at least.


GUPTA: So, all these things may keep him there a little bit longer. But again, the fact that the doctor said expected to make a full recovery right away they said that. Doctors are usually pretty conservative in this regard. If anything, you want to make sure all your I's are dotted and T's are crossed before you'd say something. They were confident enough that as bad as this was, that he was going to do OK.

CAMEROTA: OK. That helps us understand it. Sanjay, John, thank you both very much for all this latest information.


CAMEROTA: So, again, Laura, it's just every day we get more information about this and it even gets scarier. The details get scarier if you imagine being woken up in that situation.

COATES: I mean, all I keep going back to an 82-year-old man hit with a hammer to the head. I mean, this is, I mean, just think about the backdrop of this, the motivation, not that there's any ever justification, but this is tied to political grievance. This is tied to what the DHS bulletin warned about months ago at this point.

The idea of people feeling somehow entitled to resort to violence because they have a problem with what happens on the legislative floor. I mean, the idea that thinking about this is just so unbelievable. We're you know, a few days away from the midterm elections, but that date's arbitrary for all tens of purposes at this point in time. It's about the reasons and what we're standing and what people stand for and what they're willing to do. It's just, it's really unbelievable.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and it's really unsettling as we've talked about, that when you dehumanize the other side, then they deserve this. And so obviously, we pray for peaceful days between now and the midterms.

Meanwhile, the former president's attorneys are in talks with the January 6th committee. So, what are the chances that Donald Trump does end up testifying under oath? We have that. next.



COATES: All right. We've got big news tonight from the January 6th committee. Liz Cheney says that they're in discussions with the former president about, and his legal team, about maybe getting him to testify under oath. Congressmen laying out what the committee will be looking for.


CHENEY: Be done potentially over multiple days. We have significant questions based. The evidence that we've developed and as I said, what we know already about, the extent to which she was personally and directly involved in every aspect of this effort.


COATES: Willing or won't he. Joining me now, political analyst from CNN, Margaret Talev, political commentator, Paul Begala and legal analyst Elliot Williams.

I mean, we could do the Vegas odds here for a second, right? And the idea of him testifying under oath and people will say, well, of course he won't. But then I wonder, would he try to grandstand, would he try to have the opportunity if it were live? What do you think?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, OK, when you say the word testify, do you mean at a hearing at 9 o'clock p.m. under the klieg lights? No, I did this for --


COATES: What is this?

WILLIAMS: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm dead serious though because I did this for a long time. Working for the Justice Department. What you might find is a transcribed interview or a conversation in private with the committee, which is still an appearance before the committee. He's not testifying in a live hearing. His lawyers could never allow it. and it just, it's just not going to happen.

TALEV: I'd argue the opposite. I think he'd be much more likely to want to do, you said 9 o'clcok under the lights, and I was like, you know what? That sounds like, but that's not what the committee wants. The committee wants him to actually answer questions under oath in a serious format that can't turn into like, a runaway grandstanding event. And I think that is what is --


WILLIAMS: And it's also -- there's also just far bigger legal risk to him to the big bombastic, live public appearance. Like if they have the behind closed doors where they limit the number of staff, number of people in the room, which is the kind of stuff you negotiate before Congress. Yes. You know, it's probably safer for him.

If he's got any lawyer worth any salt whatsoever. They're advising him against a big person, now of course, it's Donald Trump.

COATES: But, you know, Paul, a lawyer is only as good as if you listen to him.

BEGALA: Right.

COATES: Right? And that's not been the tradition we've seen.

BEGALA: That's the problem. And I think Trump has had some good lawyers, some bad lawyers, but he's always done the wrong thing. OK. He, he is the Muhammad Ali of lying. He's the goat, the Washington Post fact checker, Glen Kessler counted 30,573 lies.


So, the question, Elliot, to me is not, is he behind closed doors? Is he under the klieg light? Is, is he under oath? If so, no way. There's no way that man should testify. He's done it before. He had to admit under oath in a deposition. Tim O'Brien, the journalist was being sued by Trump.

He admitted under oath that yes, he had lied 30 different times. They said, was this a lie? Yes, it was. Was this a lie? Yes, it was. How he got 30,000 to defend now.

COATES: But Paul.

BEGALA: There's chance to do it.

COATES: But here's the difference. I mean, if you follow that thread for a second, what was the consequence of that, right?

BEGALA: Of Trump? That's problem he's always --


COATES: And so, the idea of, you know, a deterrent is your best bet --


TALEV: I think there's --

COATES: But if there's no -- if there's no consequences here, then what?

WILLIAMS: So, maybe there's a little bit of chess being played by the committee here, because number one, you put him under oath and he testifies and lies. That's perjury. If he doesn't agree to testify, OK, that's contempt of Congress, and you can still prosecute him for that, too.

So, either way, perhaps it could end in a criminal charge for him. Now look, we all kind of know that contempt of Congress, it's a misdemeanor, is not a big deal. It, you know, whatever. But at the end of the day, he could get charged with, he could get charged with him if he doesn't show up and doesn't agree to negotiate --

(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: But he only took the fifth 400 times at the New York Attorney General. If they force him to show up, which I don't think they will.


BEGALA: They subpoena him. I think that's a -- it will run out the clock.

WILLIAMS: Of course.

BEGALA: So, I just don't think there's any, it's Trump respiration. He can't help himself. He inhales air, he exhales lies. And there's no way you're going to stop him. So, they should never allow, his lawyer should never allow him to testify.

COATES: Margaret, I politically had, and this is obviously not a prosecutorial body, right? They have to refer to DOJ a lot is writing on whether or not they're going to have this committee. It's going to be good-nighted this committee, by the time the new Congress sits in. DOJ won't be good-nighted. They'll tell the attorney general, so that's there.

But what is the politics about this? I mean, you've got Congresswoman Liz Cheney, as you pointed out earlier. She won't be a city congressman any longer. She won't have the power to do anything besides speak about these issues? How do you see this playing out?

TALEV: I think politics aside, yes, I just said that the committee is dedicated to doing a fulsome investigation of what happened and providing a fulsome report. And if they are going to do a criminal referral, let's say recommendation, to the Justice Department or just for the sake of their final report, what becomes a piece of history. They have to do this. This is a matter of checking the box.

BEGALA: Right.

TALEV: They, they have to have given the president, not just the former president, not just the opportunity and the invitation, but to try to, you know, put the heat on him to come and show up and do everything he's saying under oath.

Are they going to do a knockdown, drag out fight to make that happen? I don't think they need to, but they do need to do the step that they're doing.

WILLIAMS: A couple things. Well, if they were serious about really getting him to appear, they probably should have done this six or seven months ago. Now look, it's November 1st today. There are three months until the new Congress is sworn in.

If they want to go down the contempt road, give him a couple opportunities to show up, have his lawyers blow them off. And then final, a final contempt proceeding a couple weeks after that, charge him with a crime.

COATES: I mean, remember, of course the concessions that were made for Ginni Thomas, the wife of Justice Thomas. There was no transcript.


COATES: There was -- there was. It was no audio. There was no videotape. I mean, if those the possession you give --


TALEV: And she wasn't the present --

COATES: Right, she wasn't the present. So, you imagine if those, the concessions that were done by lawyers in that instance, what's going to happen here. But Elliot, you're so wrong. President Trump never once delayed in providing documents or anything.


COATES: The entire Mar-a-Lago scenario is just something very, very, very different on these issues. But Alisyn, you think about it. I mean, the odds here we got one person saying, no way. The other is saying, of course, he will. Really, only Trump knows what he is prepared to do, which is really the name of the game for him.

CAMEROTA: He may not know at this point either. Sometimes he may make a snap decision. But far be it for me to disagree with Elliot, but Steve Bannon is going to jail for four months. That's kind of a big deal for contempt of Congress. I mean, I know that we tend to think, no big deal. I don't know, four months out of your life in jail seems like, that might, you know, be held over somebody's head.



COATES: Well, also the calling of the bluff, right? And part of it, one of the things he's often said, the former president, the idea of wanting to talk and they denied me an opportunity during the impeachments to really have a trial like experience and testify and testify and all these discussions. Now, here's your chance. I wonder if he will take it.

CAMEROTA: We shall see. All right. Meanwhile, players suspended police investigating criminal charges, not out of the question, after this fight between University of Michigan and Michigan State's football teams. We have an update.



COATES: Tonight, four more Michigan state football players have now been suspended, bringing the total now to eight as police investigate the ugly off the field fight that happened after the game this weekend. The fight was caught on camera just after the Michigan Wolverines beat the Michigan State Spartans. Now an angle obtained by ESPN showing what appears to be a player swinging his helmet. Officials say from Michigan State say that they call this behavior quote, "unacceptable."

Joining me now, former NFL wide receiver, Donte Stallworth, CNN sports analyst, Christine Brennan and CNN senior political analyst, Kirsten Powers.

You know, you see this, and here we are in the backdrop talking about violence and the intersection of politics and the idea of hoping for civility. And you would think that sports might be the one reprieve.

Obviously, that's not the case. And you're seeing violence among college students. Mind you, Donte, this is after the game. I wonder what you make of what you've seen here.

DONTE STALLWORTH, FORMER NFL WIDE RECEIVER: It's terrible, especially when you see another player, swinging this helmet at a helmet list player, a defenseless. Football is a violent sport. It just is. It's -- in innate, it's a violent sport, but that is supposed to be left onto the field.


But I will say that there has to be some kind of, some kind of thing where they have to change these players walking in, in the tunnel at the same time. Now you, you would expect them not to behave this way and it, 99 percent of the time it does not happen.

But in cases like this, where it does happen, you would like to minimize any type of situation that can arise out of players losing their heads and acting, acting out like this?

COATES: I mean, is it pollyannaish for some people to say, you know what, we can just tell them this was wrong. You shouldn't do this, and not need to have to conform the entire stadium, or the entry and the egress on that very note.

But you point out, I mean, if this is the reality, what does that say about what is happening behind the scenes and the mentality?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Where we are in sports today? Because your point is well taken, Laura. The idea that sports on the field of play, there's a winner, there's a loser. You can shake hands. Women and men learning life lessons. I mean, that really is happening in sports at a lot of places.

That's not what happened here. I grew up going to games at Michigan Stadium watched incredible emotion. You were -- played the game college pro. You know what that's like and you just cannot have that happen.

Obviously, these guys are suspended. There is punishment. The right things are happening now. But all the wrong things happened to get us to this point. COATES: You are seeing this and on a larger scale, taking a step

back, Kirsten, on the idea of just how much sports is under the microscope for a variety of things. And we're talking about the way in which this happening in the NBA, for example. You've got an NBA player, Kyrie Irving being, you know, vilified in some respects for retweeting and having the presumption of anti-Semitism. You've got players responding, you've got, you know, people on the court and having these issues talking about it.

I mean, we are seeing more and more that it's under the microscope. And I just want to play for a second, because there was this moment where Charles Barkley is speaking about what happened on this issue of Kyrie Irving. Listen to this and I want you to respond.



UNKNOWN: In what way?

BARKLEY: I think he should have been suspended. I think Adam should have suspended him. First of all, Adam is Jewish. You can't take my $40 million and insult my religion. I can't believe that we are not talking about that. We're talking about this idiot. And when you say, when you -- if I say, hey, I'm agreeing with this move, this book, or whatever, I'm agreeing with it. I'm not going to put, I, first of all, you know, I don't do any social media. But when you are somebody as great as basketball like him, people going to listen to you, what you say.


COATES: I mean, this is the idea that he tweeted and shared anti- Semitic content on social media. That's the controversy, writing what he's done. But his point, the idea of the platform and the responsibility of the platform.


COATES: You take this very seriously. I know in your book, talking about political grace and the idea of it and what happens, the toxicity of social media. We're not talking about the sports. We're talking about what's happening on the sidelines?


COATES: And it's consequential.

POWERS: Well, I think the reason is that they're under a microscope is because they're heroes for the most part in our culture, right? Athletes are heroes in our culture. Children look up to them, grown people look up to them.

And so, when you have that kind of responsibility, you really, I mean, look, you shouldn't -- I don't care who you are. You shouldn't be tweeting out anti-Semitic things. But if you're somebody in a position like that where people are looking up to you as a role model and as a hero, then you have an even higher standard.

And I think that what we see a lot in sports, I'm not a big sports person. I don't follow a lot of sports, but it is pretty clear to me that there has been a lack of accountability, right? Because they're heroes and because, you know, there's been a lot of excuses that have been made for athletes along the way.

And I think that we've gotten to a point in culture where people are trying to say, you know, we're not going to make so many excuses for you anymore. We're actually going to hold you to higher standards.

COATES: Should they be held to a higher standard, Donte, as an athlete?

STALLWORTH: I think they should hold themselves to a higher standard. I think when we put people on a pedestal and something of this nature happens, it just kind of reminds us that they're human as well. And that's obviously not an endorsement, but of what he did or what he said.

But I think too, that holding ourselves higher to a higher standard, that means that when you're doing your research, you're not looking at someone else's YouTube video and considering that research, you actually have to read books. You need to learn from professors and people who have dedicated their lives to understanding certain philosophies and things that, I think where he was trying to get across, but it -- but it obviously, it didn't come off that way.

And anyone who has seen the video knows that that video is just, is filled with anti-Semitic tropes and things that are in the conspiracy world of Jewish people and how they control the planet and all this other craziness.

COATES: I mean, Alisyn, imagine that the onus being on people to be responsible and the information that they disseminate. I mean, I --



CAMEROTA: How high of a standard is it to ask --


COATES: Shocking on him.

CAMEROTA: -- not to tweet anti-Semitic things. You know, that should, I'm not sure that's actually a high standard. And I totally agree with Donte.

COATES: And yet.

CAMEROTA: Of course, you have to be, you have to know what you're putting out there in the world. You just have to. You have to be responsible for that.


COATES: Well, we'll see if it works in politics too.

CAMEROTA: OK. Meanwhile, President Biden is hitting the campaign trail, so we're going to tell you his midterm message for the country, next.


CAMEROTA: President Biden out on the trail in Florida today, his midterm message is that democracy is on the ballot.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Their extremism isn't limited to social programs in the economy. They're coming after your right to vote and who can get to count. No, for real. You got 300 or 50 so election deniers on the ballot on the Republican ticket. No, this is really deadly earnest, man. Democracy is on the ballot this year, along with your right to choose.



CAMEROTA: I mean, Laura, there really are two distinct messages at least. I mean that you hear from the Republicans. It's about inflation, it's about the economy, it's about what you can put on your kitchen table. And then you hear from President Biden that, yes, those things are important but not as important as democracy.

And without democracy, all everything else is up for grabs. And those are just, you know, the choices for voters right now.

COATES: You know, it's true. And I think there's a part that he mentioned, which is the idea of it's not just the right to vote, it's the right to have that vote counted, and you think about that's what the election denialism has really been about, right?

The idea, the fear is not for many people about whether you won't have access to the ballot. Although originally that was part of the discussions happening, but really, it's now about the idea of will it be counted and will somebody actually support the results. That's the key to all of this.


COATES: We'll see what happens.

CAMEROTA: And who will be doing accounting.

COATES: Right. Democracies in the accounting. Listen, everyone, weigh in on what we've been talking about tonight. Tweet at Alisyn Camerota and at the Laura Coates. Use the hash tag CNN sound off. We'll be right back.



COATES: All right. In case you hadn't noticed, one week from tonight, polls are going to close all across the country. We'll be following the votes all night long and probably the following days after that, right here on CNN.