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CNN Tonight
Harry And Meghan Reveals Bitter Split From Royal Family; Harry Blames Media Coverage For Meghan's Miscarriage; Buckingham Palace Says It Won't Comment On The Netflix Doc; Prince Harry Is Partly To Blame; Private Matters Should Be Kept Inside The Family. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 15, 2022 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Number one is, enough with the extremism and the election denialism.
But he said something that seemed so obvious, but it was remarkable to hear a politician, Anderson. He said, you know what, just be normal. Just try to be a normal person. And it's amazing how much you can connect with people.
He is a conservative fiscally. He is more liberal on social issues. But to hear him talk about that and talk about the fact that he really wants to try to fix the Republican Party, which he admits is broken, is really interesting given where it is right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. I think a lot of people just want normalcy. Dana Bash, I appreciate it, thank you.
You can catch the premier of Being Chris Sununu tomorrow night 10:00 P.M. Eastern right here after 360 on CNN.
News continues for now as CNN TONIGHT Special, royal revelations with Alisyn Camerota, starts now.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening everyone. This is a CNN TONIGHT Special, Royal Revelations. I'm Alisyn Camerota.
In the hour ahead, we're going to examine the media phenomenon that is the Netflix documentary called Harry and Meghan. Why is it the most watched documentary debut ever for Netflix? Why have people around the world watched more than 81 million hours' worth of this? Is it because of all of the blockbuster accusations in it or do we all just like to see good looking people struggling behind the scenes?
Maybe we relish royal drama. Maybe everyone is hungry to hear what Harry actually says to his brother behind closed doors. How is it going over in Britain? We'll find out. What does Buckingham palace think about it? We'll find out. Maybe the phenomenon is that we're all suckers for a fairy tale or vipers for a fractured fairy tale. Really, I have so many questions. And whatever it is, something is going on with the popularity of this. Maybe it tells us more about ourselves than about Harry and Meghan. So, I'm joined by guests here and in London, all of whom have a lot of opinions about this. They'll also share new reporting on what we've seen so far and the final episodes that dropped at 3:00 A.M.
But let's begin with Harry and Meghan in Their Own Words. CNN's Royal Correspondent Max Foster has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PRINCE HARRY, DUKE OF SUSSEX: Good morning. It's 6:00 A.M. on the 14th of March. And we are on the freedom flight. We are leaving Canada and we are headed to Los Angeles.
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Harry and Meghan making blockbuster allegations against their own family and what goes on behind palace walls.
PRINCE HARRY: Everything that happened to us was always going to happen to us. Because if you speak truth to power, that's how they respond.
FOSTER: In the final episodes of the couple's Netflix docuseries, Harry says he was being blocked from meeting the queen to discuss his future.
PRINCE HARRY: Once we were back in the U.K., I rang her and said, I'm told that you're busy. She said I didn't know I was busy. I've been told that I'm been busy. And I should've been told that I'm a busy all week. And I was like, wow.
FOSTER: By this point the couple had decided to step back from royal duties issuing a statement to that effect. That triggered a showdown at Sandringham House with William, Charles and the Queen.
PRINCE HARRY: It was terrifying to have my brother scream and shout at me and my father say things that simply weren't true, and my grandmother quietly sit there and sort of take it all in.
FOSTER: The couple sharing their perspective on the royal rift, which, in their words, pushed them out of the fold. It started during their tour of Australia back in 2018. So, successful it created jealousy in the palace, they say.
PRINCE HARRY: The issue is when someone who is marrying in should be a supporting act is then stealing the limelight or is doing the job better than the person who's born to do this, that upsets people. It shifts the balance. Within four hours, they're happy to lie to protect my brother, and yet for three years, they were never willing to tell the truth to protect us.
The saddest part of it was this wedge created between myself and my brother so that he is now on the institution side. And I get -- part of that I get. I understand, right? That's his inheritance. So, to some extent it is already ingrained in him that part of his responsibility is the survivability and the continuation of this institution. FOSTER: Meghan says the stress of the media coverage was too much, last year, saying she didn't want to live any more.
MEGHAN MARKLE, DUCHESS OF SUSSEX: It was like all of this will stop if I'm not here. And that was the scariest thing about it, is it was such clear thinking.
[22:05:01]
DORIA RAGLAND, MEGHAN MARKLE MOTHER: I remember her telling me that that she had wanted to take her own life. And that really broke my heart. Because I knew -- well, I knew that it was bad. But to just constantly be picked at by these vultures just picking away at her spirit that she would actually think of not wanting to be here.
FOSTER: But she also suffered physically because of the stress of the worldwide coverage and in British newspapers, including the Daily Mail, which published a letter she wrote to her father.
PRINCE HARRY: I believe my wife suffered a miscarriage because of what the Mail did. They watched the whole thing. Now, do we absolutely know the miscarriage was caused by that? Of course we don't. But bearing in mind the stress that that caused, the lack of sleep and the timing of the pregnancy, how many weeks in she was, I can say from what I saw that miscarriage was created by what they were trying to do to her.
FOSTER: Meghan says she took on her royal role with the best of intentions but she was warned from the very beginning by her private secretary that things wouldn't be smooth.
MARKLE: There was this moment where our private secretary, she worked for the queen for almost, I think, 20 years, and what she said to me was, it's like this fish is like swimming perfectly, powerful, it's on the right current, and then one day this little organism comes in and the entire thing goes -- what is that? What is it doing here? It doesn't look like us. It doesn't move like us. We don't like it. Get it off of us.
FOSTER: The family's response? Well, on Thursday they showed a united front at a planned engagement. And the palace said they had no plans to comment on the series.
Max Foster, CNN London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMEROTA: Okay, our thanks to Max for that.
Here to dissect all of this we have Zain Asher, CNN International Anchor of One World, also CNN Anchor and Correspondent and former Royal Reporter Richard Quest and Erin Vanderhoof, co-Host of Dynasty Vanity Fair's Royals Podcast.
Richard, let me start with you because you were growling during some of that package that we just watched. What is your beef with this? RICHARD QUEST, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Let us divide this into two aspects.
CAMEROTA: All right.
QUEST: On the one hand we have the appalling way in which Meghan has been treated. She was in an impossible situation and, absolutely, my sympathy with her is a thousand percent. She could never do right.
CAMEROTA: Then why don't you stop there? That is all we need to know.
QUEST: No, of course not. How simple it would be for you if we did, but that is not what this is about. Because then you've got what William and Harry -- what Harry talked about is the institution. He then goes on to start laying it on with a trowel and a spade in big, thick measure. And before long, you've conflated the two so you can't really see exactly what we're talking about. And then you throw in the media, which are truly appalling.
CAMEROTA: The paparazzi in Britain. I mean, that is one of the things in my eyes were open to is the atrocious treatment they got from the paparazzi in Britain.
QUEST: They all do.
CAMEROTA: That is not good enough, Richard. That's not good enough, because just they all do, just because it's sucks for everybody. That's not enough.
QUEST: And the U.K. has a commission after the phone hacking scandal, the Leveson committee, and nothing has been done about that. And I agree with you on that, I agree with you. But we are talking here about this docuseries, which lays out in excruciating detail, all the details of what happened.
CAMEROTA: Not a fan, I'm taking it. Sain, go ahead.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: So, here's the thing. I was heartbroken watching this documentary. And the reason is because in November 2017, when I found out -- I mean, remember I was scrolling through my phone and I found out that Meghan Markle was engaged to Prince Harry, I was on my way to work. I went back into my apartment, closed my bedroom door, and I just danced. I danced and I danced and I danced.
CAMEROTA: And why did you have that reaction?
ASHER: Because for me, as a black woman growing up in the U.K., I'd only -- I'd always felt as though I had only half belonged, right? I never felt as though being somebody of African descent that I was ever going to be truly part of the fabric of what makes up English society.
[22:10:02]
And here we are seeing a black woman, somebody that looks like me, marrying into the most powerful institution this world has ever known. And for the first time in my life, I thought, maybe I got it wrong. Maybe I belonged more than I thought I did. Maybe I do belong after all.
And I walked from my apartment. It was a 15-minute walk to CNN, and I walked the entire 15 minutes with my head held high because a black woman was marrying into that family. And I remember there was a photograph, I'm sure everyone saw it, after the wedding, it was Doria, Meghan Markle's mother, with her in-laws, a black woman with dreadlocks standing next to Queen Elizabeth, not as her subject but as her in-law. That photograph was monumental. To every black person in Britain that photograph was monumental.
CAMEROTA: That's powerful. I mean, everything that you're saying is powerful. And, obviously, we will have a lot of time to debate all of this. But I do want to get you in, Erin, because from the American perspective, why is this so globally fascinating? What is the phenomenon here?
ERIN VANDERHOOF, STAFF WRITER, VANITY FAIR: I think Meghan has a very relatable life story. I mean, I think that one of the things that gets lost in talking about her is sort of how silly, you know, and a story not too long ago I described her sense of humor as adorkable, which I think this is the thing that I'm seeing, greeting you the wrong way. And I think that a lot of -- for a lot of Americans, Meghan also kind a comes off a little too much but there is also something so purely, you know, joyful and in their best moments. And I think that there's a sense in which you, when you see something like that everybody wants to say, no, this cannot be real. This has to be an act, this has to be fake, like what's going on here?
And I think that for Americans watching it, as a celebrity culture, like we have decided here, we do not want to have a monarchy here, this is not something that we are interested in, as like an experiment in governing, we are seeing it through the eyes of, you know, the --
CAMEROTA: A fairy tale, I think.
VANDERHOOF: And a special relationship, you know, that I think that there is a sense that we like -- we like that the U.K. has maintained some of its ways that are different to us.
CAMEROTA: Of course.
VANDERHOOF: And we like the way that we're different.
CAMEROTA: Richard, hold that thought. All of you hold that thought. We have so much more to talk about.
Up next, the view from London, the silence from Buckingham palace is deafening. But can the royal family continue to ignore this and the accusations? We have a lot more to talk about.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
CAMEROTA: The latest episodes of the Harry and Meghan Netflix documentary revealed details of their struggles with the royal family. But they say their story is really a love story. Listen to Meghan reading aloud her wedding speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKLE: But mostly I wanted to share a story, a story that I wrote about the man that I love and the way that we met. Let's call this a modern fairy tale.
Once upon a time, there was a girl from L.A., some people called her an actress. And there was a guy from London, some people called him a prince. All of those people didn't fully get it, because this is the love story of a boy and a girl who were meant to be together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: So, people are tuning in by the droves to hear Harry and Meghan's side of the story but we're not hearing from the new king or the prince of Wales.
Joining me now from London we have CNN Royal Correspondent Max Foster and British Journalist and Broadcaster Bidisha Mamata. Great to see you both.
Max, why isn't Buckingham Palace responding to this?
FOSTER: Well, they are responding actually. So, yes, today, they said they wouldn't be making any official comment but a lot of this is optics, isn't it? But we were told is that the king and queen would be joining the prince and princess of Wales at the princess of Wales' carol service at Westminster Abbey that she organizes.
So, we've got here, the Wales is arriving at their carol service but we've also got Charles and Camilla arriving afterward, as you can see. And this is very clear messaging. All the cameras are there. This is a united front. Not only that, this is a long planned engagement and it's continuing regardless, they are attending regardless that everything that happened they learned today in this docuseries, which would have been deeply upsetting for everyone involved here, particularly for William and Charles.
And it speaks to what Harry says is a problem with the institution, that people are expected to go out and perform like this no matter how they feel, just as Diana did, and that is a problem with the system. But what you've got here is the rest of the family saying, we're going to carry on with this, you haven't changed anything.
CAMEROTA: Bidisha, how do you think this is all going over, this docuseries in Britain?
BIDISHA MAMATA, BROADCASTER: Well, it is very interesting because Max used exactly the right words, optics. So what you've got is the royal family capital R, capital F, keep up and carry on. Meanwhile, the nation is gripped. Many of the papers led with this, not just the tabloids. And I think ordinary readers are feeling intrigued, tinged with a touch of fatigue.
This is a melange of soap opera, dynasty, tabloid culture, ancient, old testament, Cain and Abel brothers versus brothers, fathers, grandmothers versus everybody else versus the fairy tale. And then you can throw in a dash tragic -- Greek tragedy and drama and Freudian impulses and something to do with mothers and sons and history repeating itself and capital L love and capital D death and everyone is just eating it up, not least of all Harry and Meghan themselves.
[22:20:03]
I absolutely agree with some of the commentaries saying, gosh, so this is what they're showing us behind the facade. They desperately want us to feel the pain, to know what happens, where are the cracks, where are the fractures, those immaculate, smiling faces, are they really shouting and screaming behind closed doors?
CAMEROTA: Well, I couldn't -- I mean, now we understand why everybody is gripped. It's a melange of all of that you just described. Max, if they were to respond verbally, which, as you've said, they won't, what would they take biggest umbrage at? What do you think is making Buckingham Palace most angry?
FOSTER: Well, there will be specifics, things like did they protect Meghan or not. I think that they would feel they did. I mean, it was my experience that often Kensington Palace would come and express many of the views that Harry and Meghan have felt that there was racist coverage, sexist coverage, xenophobic coverage in the media. They would do that.
But, you know, other correspondents might have had different experiences. I think Harry and Meghan were right in the middle of it. They do know what happened. There is a lot of truth to what they're saying. I think William would be very upset that conversations, private conversations have been exposed by Harry, particularly the one at Sandringham, the massive family showdown. William was shouting. I'm sure he was shouting. I don't think we have any reason to doubt that. Charles was lying, according to Harry. And the queen was just sitting there watching it all come in putting the institution first.
I think they would be horrified that those conversations are out in the open and I think that is actually what is going to really do damage long term to this relationship, you know, wondering whether or not it can ever be fixed. Because will William ever be able to trust Harry to keep confidence on a personal conversation, because he hasn't done so in these very intimate moments?
CAMEROTA: Bidisha, there is another clip I want to play basically that Meghan was not given a literal seat at the table for matters of her own life and future. So, here's that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKLE: Imagine a conversation, a round table discussion about the future of your life when the stakes were this high and you as the mom and the wife and the target in many regards aren't invited to have a seat at the table.
PRINCE HARRY: It was okay to me that they planned that so you weren't in the room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: I mean, you can see why she would feel -- why she would feel isolated and marginalized in that instance.
MAMATA: Yes, it's very interesting. Because what the royal family are saying to Meghan is not you are not part of the family but you are not part of the business. What that meeting was, was a board meeting. It was like Wayne Enterprises or a large cement or concrete company coming together and saying, how do we do image management? They weren't thinking then in terms of, oh, she is our in-law, she is our new sister, she is our new daughter.
CAMEROTA: She's family.
MAMATA: Yes. She's just a problem to be dealt with. And I can absolutely understand that sense of chagrin and exclusion. And, in fact, that is what makes these last three episodes of this documentary series so disturbing and so opaque at the same time, the terrible, festering sense of being betrayed.
That is what Harry and Meghan desperately want us to understand, which we never really will be able to understand. This is why they're so hurt, in particular Harry. Not Meghan so much. Meghan arrived, she had an unpleasant experience and turned around and left really quite quickly. But the wound is, in fact, with Prince Harry. He really hurts because he feels his father and his brother intimately betrayed him because they are the ones who are supposed to have his back and know him best.
CAMEROTA: You're not kidding, that is Shakespearean. Bidisha and Max, thank you both very much, great to get your perspective from London.
Richard Quest, it won't surprise you, is scribbling frantically. So, we'll get back to that, Meghan and Harry slamming the British tabloids for the coverage of them. What is the truth? Did the press cover Meghan differently than they did to Kate? We're going to take a look and show you examples, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:25:00]
CAMEROTA: One of the biggest bombshells from Harry and Meghan is Harry blaming the British tabloid, the Mail, on Sunday for Meghan's miscarriage. The couple also blamed the U.K. tabloids for what they say was far different coverage of Meghan compared to Kate Middleton and the role that race played. Here is more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKLE: I realized that I wasn't just being thrown to the wolves. I was being fed to the wolves.
CAMEROTA (voice over): Prince Harry and Meghan Markle slamming the British media in the final episodes of their Netflix documentary, reminding viewers of the firestorm of headlines they faced while living in the U.K.
PRINCE HARRY: I believe my wife suffered a miscarriage because of what the Mail did.
REPORTER: The duke and duchess of Sussex point fingers at the Mail on Sunday for publishing a private letter Meghan wrote to her father.
[22:30:00]
They say it was an invasion of privacy, and they take aim at the many headlines containing racist undertones like this one, referencing Meghan's rich and exotic DNA. Or this one about the duchess's upward mobility, referencing her family's, quote, "slave roots." Or this, claiming, Harry's girl is almost straight out of Compton.
DIANE ABBOTT, MEMBER, BRITISH PARLIAMENT: Sadly, racism is this real for me now as it was that's three years ago.
CAMEROTA: Diane Abbott is the first black woman elected to British Parliament. She says she can relate to what the Duchess of Sussex was facing from the British press.
ABBOTT: There's something about black women, I think that some people in this country trying to particularly trigger it. I don't know why, but it's a, it's a combination of misogyny and racism and they are triggered. And Meghan came in for that, in space.
CAMEROTA: The backlash spilled over into things as mundane as avocados with headlines proclaiming the Duchess's favorite snack is linked to human rights abuses.
Meanwhile, praising her sister-in-law, the princess of Whales for eating the same fruit and to nail polish with headlines criticizing her color choice as vulgar.
ABBOTT: It was almost as if they felt as a woman of color, she didn't really belong in the British royal family.
CAMEROTA: The royal couple says it was largely the treatment they received from the British press and the palace's refusal to do anything to help them that ultimately drove them out of the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMEROTA (on camera): We have reached out to the Mail on Sunday. Its publisher Associated Newspapers Limited and Buckingham Palace for their response.
Richard Quest, Zain Asher, and Erin Vanderhoof are back with me. But hold your thoughts for one moment because I want to bring in --
ERIN VANDERHOOF, STAFF WRITER, VANITY FAIR: We try in.
CAMEROTA: -- I know, British American playwright novelist, critic, and broadcaster, Bonnie Greer. She's also a former deputy chair of the Board of the British Museum.
Bonnie, great to have you here. It's -- it's undeniable. I mean, it's undeniable. We show the headlines there. She did get different treatment than Kate Middleton. It's not even open for debate. And furthermore, when I watched this documentary, it was the first time I really understood how much the paparazzi tormented them. I mean, swarmed them day in and day out. That's unsustainable. I mean, what else was she supposed to do?
BONNIE GREER, FORMER DEPUTY CHAIR, BOARD OF THE BRITISH MUSEUM: Well, thanks for having me, Alisyn. You know, there are a couple of things here that haven't, maybe they haven't touched on. First of all, this is a typical story of an American in Britain, you know, writ large. When you marry into a prominent British family and you're an American, and this goes all the way back in history, it's an explosion anyway.
We have the sort of, fought that we all speak the same language. We do not. So, that's the first thing that happens. So, someone can come into a room to an American who's British and make a joke that to the British people would they'd start laughing. And to an American would be absolutely outrageous. We don't have the same sense of humor.
And I think Harry didn't orientate her for one thing. Yes. I think he didn't give an idea of what she was walking into. She was marrying into the royal family, not Joe Blogs down the road, and this was going to be high profile, high media all the way.
Then she comes in as a woman. She has a lot of stuff that she's carrying with her and she's not being prepared for it. Some of us who are black American living in Britain tried to reach her, but we couldn't get to her. You know, there was just a wall around her, not only of the royal family, but of people who just wanted to be next to her.
So, we couldn't get to her to say --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: But Bonnie, if you --
GREER: -- sister.
CAMEROTA: Yes. What would you have said to her?
GREER: This (Inaudible) have to excuse. Pardon?
CAMEROTA: What would you have said to her?
GREER: I would've said, first, I would've said, first of all, the tabloids are like this. We don't have this kind of relationship in America with the press. They're in your business, they make up stuff about you. They pick sides. That's what they do. And you have -- if you're going to marry this man, you have to be prepared for that because that's what's going to happen.
And that they didn't prepare her for that, that they didn't let her know this was going to go down. I'm putting it on Harry, I'm sorry. Because Harry should -- Harry has had several people he was involved with who didn't stay with him. They were British and partly it's because the tabloids.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
GREER: And I don't know why he didn't help her because I don't think he did.
CAMEROTA: Bonnie, hold that thought.
GREER: Let me say that --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Let me, yes. Hold on. Let me --
GREER: Because there -- because there is a way you orientate people and didn't happen.
CAMEROTA: I think that's a really interesting angle. Richard, though, why did she deserve that? She fell in love with somebody? Why does she have to be chased around? I mean, she describes the story of six paparazzi wait, sleeping in their cars outside of her house to chase her around 24/7. Why does she need to deal with that?
[22:35:04]
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: It's the way it is. And if you don't like the heat, you get out of the kitchen.
CAMEROTA: She got out of the kitchen.
QUEST: Which is -- which is what they did. And then, yes, she got out of the kitchen and then opens up a big restaurant on Netflix cooking up a whole load of other things.
Look, let's just have a moment on this. If you talk about this, this is a couple that was so weary press publicity, intrusion, personal intrusion that they've done --
(CROSSTALK)
VANDERHOOF: This is a misnomer. I think you don't really think that --
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: No.
CAMEROTA: But Richard, I'm with you. That paparazzi chasing you --
QUEST: Netflix.
CAMEROTA: -- is different than doing a Netflix documentary telling your story. QUEST: Netflix. But that -- but Bonnie is right. There was nothing she could do about that. That's the way the tabloids are. Harry should have prepared her arguably better. This is a woman --
(CROSSTALK)
VANDERHOOF: You think you own Harry?
QUEST: This, no.
VANDERHOOF: Like, do you think you're allowed to tell him he doesn't get deserve love?
QUEST: This --
VANDERHOOF: Like, that's, I think where this becomes so difficult and hard to deal with because I think that Harry, you see it in his eyes. He is looking at the camera and he says, like, I knew that if I didn't do something, like I would lose this woman. And I'd already lost every person I'd ever been with before.
QUEST: Right. So, they did. No, no. So, they did do something. They left.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
QUEST: They went to Canada.
VANDERHOOF: And they got pilloried for it.
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: And everybody thought Canada was going to be the place. And then they moved down to the United States.
VANDERHOOF: And they were reamed by about by the press. They were yelled at port, according to Harry, by the family. I think the issue here is that they didn't it -- at a certain point of time when Harry retired from the military, maybe it should have been time for the palace to sit back and say, OK, perhaps he is just going to be on a different road.
How do we help him make a life where he is more happy --
(CROSSTALK)
ASHER: I have to say --
VANDERHOOF: -- than with the big press pad.
CAMEROTA: Yes, go ahead, Zain.
ASHER: There are only a handful of people in this world who truly understand what it is like to marry into this family. When you marry into the British royal family, you are essentially a private person, but you are kind of public property. And from the moment you walk in, every expression, Alisyn, every time you tuck your hair behind your ear, every time you cross your legs, it is picked apart day in, day out by the paparazzi.
That is unsustainable. Prince Andrew, I'm sorry, but Prince Andrew was involved in a sex abuse scandal, which by the way, he settled and even he, even he got better treatment than Meghan Markle. That, I'm sorry, I find very strange.
QUEST: I'm not sure I agree with you on that. I, in fact, I will take issue with you on that in terms of the treatment of Andrew Post the allegations. They were -- they were there. But to the issue here of Meghan and Harry, first of all, they leave the country.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
QUEST: Then they do this interview.
CAMEROTA: Because they want to tell their own story. I don't see it as being chased by paparazzi. I see them two different things.
QUEST: OK. And --
VANDERHOOF: The day that they left --
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: And then -- and then -- hang on a second.
CAMEROTA: Quickly.
QUEST: Then he calls the king liar. He says his brother screams. Now look, this might all be true, but they also, Harry also knows this is the one thing that the institution, which you are all seemingly happy to be beat up on, but the institution is against.
CAMEROTA: OK. Hold that. Hold that thought. Bonnie, thank you very much. We will be back with, for you to finish that thought and everybody else to tell Richard how wrong he is.
ASHER: Want to say, I'm going to hold it in.
CAMEROTA: Bonnie, thank you very much for being here. So, from a fairytale marriage to a docu-series publicly detailing the bitter split in one of the world's most high-profile families, we're going to trace the arc of the royal fallout, next.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMEROTA: What does it mean? The Duke and Duchess of Sussex? I like the ring of it. QUEST: And a fascinating choice of titles that once again speaks to this idea of bringing the thousand-year-old tradition, this monarchy that has lasted for so long now being dragged into the 21st century.
So, here you have Meghan joining the royal family, this liberal American joining a thousand-year institution and now got the title the first, by the way, the first female to be the Duchess of Sussex.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMEROTA: My gosh, that is wonderful perspective. I love the subtext of all of that. Richard, don't you remember how happy we were that day? How loved up we were. It was so romantic. I mean, remember we were -- you were rhapsodic. Remember? What -- what happened? Richard?
QUEST: What happened? Well, I also remember this idea that was she going to drag the monarchy kicking and screaming forward into the --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: They were going to make it modern.
QUEST: And they were going to make it modern, but she wanted to do it on her terms.
CAMEROTA: That's right.
QUEST: And this is institution wasn't going to play that rule, wasn't going to play, wasn't going to play that. And just, and one, as we look at the way, you know, the way that Charles walked her down the aisle she says at her request, we look at the -- what that's happened. But there was no way. They were in an impossible situation and there was no way it was going to move as fast as she wanted it to move.
CAMEROTA: OK. That's true. Go ahead.
VANDERHOOF: Well, I think partially part of the issue is, I think that when we are saying we want to make the monarchy more modern, it means a lot of things. And I have kind of come to realize that the thing that could make it more modern without compromising the tradition is that they have to be a little bit more like an actual employer/employee relationship.
I think that there just needs to be a more formal ideas about what it is that they're doing for the public. Because I think the way that it wasn't necessarily that she wanted things to change is that she felt like she was being used, she was -- the institution got this good press from the -- from her wedding, but they didn't actually want her, you know, they didn't actually want to back up those things that they were, that they were saying.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Yes, but --
VANDERHOOF: Or they were allowing to be. CAMEROTA: What's the definition of modern, you know, modernizing the monarchy. And they weren't clear about that and nobody spelled it out first. And so, they did have different impressions.
[03:45:03]
But I just remember that day, I mean, obviously Americans are suckers for fairy tales, and I was.
[22:45:09]
VANDERHOOF: We all are.
CAMEROTA: I knew, and I was that day and I was -- I -- it was very romantic and I felt that it was really special that she was marrying into the royal family. But of course, I didn't know all of the subtext about what would happen then.
ASHER: Yes. And it -- I think one of the things that, you know, has really opened my eyes when she spoke in the documentary is really how much of a leaky ship it was within the royal household. You know, it's really impossible for all of these stories to come out about Meghan with such frequency without the royal family and not -- I'm not talking about the principles necessarily, but the people involved in the institution of the monarchy playing some kind of role in that.
CAMEROTA: You know --
ASHER: And that is what is so hurtful. I mean, yes, it's a family. But you are seeing really, it really is a family business.
QUEST: Yes.
ASHER: Yes.
CAMEROTA: No --
ASHER: It is a money making machine and it's that part of it that is --
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: And they have to protect that. But I also do want to get to one of the things in the docu-series that they talk about, which is what Harry has given up. You know, Harry has left his family and he's moved here, and what he's given up and he talks about what he misses. So here's that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCE HARRY, DUKE OF SUSSEX: I missed the -- the weird family gatherings when we're all sort of brought together under one roof for, you know, certain times of the year. That I miss. You know, just being part of the institution meant that I was in the U.K., so I missed the U.K., I missed my friends. And I've lost -- I've lost a few friends in this process as well. I mean, I came here because I was changed. I'd changed to the point of I'd outgrown my environment. Therefore, this was the most obvious place to come. You know, it's one of the places where I think my mum was probably going to end up living, potentially.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Richard, why are you apoplectic?
QUEST: Because there's a rail politic to all of this, and Harry knows this. And him talking about, I miss my family. I miss having this. I miss having that. Look, if he really misses that in the sense that he wants to improve the situation, you wouldn't have done the interview in the way that he's done it there.
You would've built the bridges following the duke of Edinburg's funeral when they were back there. If it was too late by then, the contracts had been signed. Let me ask you a question, all of you. Is there a cell by date for Meghan and Harry to keep telling us how awful they've been treated?
We've heard it from Oprah. We've now heard it from Netflix. We're going to have the book coming out in the new year. Is there a cell by date?
CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Erin.
VANDERHOOF: Well, here's the thing. So, Harry says in the docu- series, he says, you know, you have to finish the last chapter before you can move to the next one. And I think that there's logic to that.
But what he's doing is he's also saying like eventually they're going to have to, you know, pony up with the charity work that they say they want to do. And I think that, you know, if you've been paying a lot of attention to the times that Harry has been in public the last few years to some of the things that Meghan has done, they've been working with Jose Andres and World Central Kitchen.
They've actually done some pretty interesting work where, you know, all that was needed was some funds to make things happen for people. And we are going to have to see them figure out how to turn that into sort of like an entertaining brand.
ASHER: Well, I just going to touch on what Richard said. You know, the reason why Meghan Markle, and I guess Prince Harry continued to tell their story is because there is clearly a gap between how Meghan Markle sees herself and how the world sees her. And there is a very, very wide gap. And obviously she's attempting to close that gap.
I think what I really admire about the fact that she's speaking out is that, I mean, Harry touched on this in the first episode, or actually in the fourth episode where he said, look, racism, I'm paraphrasing, racism isn't just a white police officer kneeling on a black person's neck on a street in Minneapolis. It's not someone screaming, I can't breathe. Racism comes in so many different iterations. It comes in so many
different shapes and sizes, and oftentimes it can be very subtle. It can be extremely covert, and actually the more subtle it is, the more courage it takes to speak out about it.
And so, I just think that this is a process of education for a lot of people, especially for the British public. It's a teachable moment. Because a lot of people say to me, well, Zain, just because I don't like Meghan Markle, that doesn't mean that I'm a racist.
Yes, of course. It doesn't mean that you are a racist, but you have to look at the nuances. It's what I call shadow racism behind some of the coverage, and I have to ask. What has this woman done.
That headline, and you and I were just talking about this a second ago, that headline where, I can't remember which tabloid said it, but it was something like, you know, Meghan Markle's flowers at her wedding, you know, Charlotte, Princess Charlotte had an allergy to flowers, and Meghan Markle's flowers at her wedding, you know, could be responsible for -- could've killed Princess Charlotte.
CAMEROTA: Could have killed Princess Charlotte.
ASHER: What are you talking about? Right? What are you talking about?
CAMEROTA: Like they vilified her to that degree.
ASHER: Completely -- completely --
CAMEROTA: Yes.
ASHER: So unfair. So unreasonable. And nobody has told me --
CAMEROTA: Yes.
ASHER: -- what this woman has done to deserve it.
[22:50:01]
CAMEROTA: OK. We have to go.
QUEST: Even if -- even if you're all right, why do this?
CAMEROTA: OK. So, I'm going to answer that. The expiration date that you were asking about, I would say is a month after Prince Harry's book. When he's done with the book tour, then they can move on. That's my answer to that.
All right. Well, everybody, stay. I hope you're listening, royals. OK. Listen to this. The royal fascination spreading far outside of the United Kingdom. Why are Americans so hooked on the royal family? We look at that, next.
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CAMEROTA: Harry and Meghan trying to make a new life in the U.S. saying they love the freedom for their family. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARKLE: Part of what's beautiful here is the freedom to have family moments out in the world. We're going to see the horses, yay.
[22:55:01]
And I want our kids to be able to do that and to be able to travel and to fall in love. You know, I just want them to be happy.
PRINCE HARRY: The world that they see is how I would love the world to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: How is -- is Richard Quest? Richard, aren't they entitled to that?
QUEST: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Aren't they entitled to travel freely without being hounded by the paparazzi?
QUEST: In an ideal --
CAMEROTA: Why is that so wrong?
QUEST: -- world? Yes, but it's like the hotel California, you can leave -- check out, but you can never leave.
CAMEROTA: How?
QUEST: Because he's right in a sense. He's born into the royal family.
CAMEROTA: Through no choice of his own.
QUEST: Correct. I give you, But the reality is once they're the paparazzi, because you want to read about it and our dear viewers are enjoying hearing about it, and as long as we feed the beast, the beast will go after them. That is the reality.
CAMEROTA: Except you can change the reality. If you're the royal family and they had said, lay off Meghan.
QUEST: They did.
CAMEROTA: How do you know they did? Because she feels that she wasn't ever defended by now.
QUEST: In her view. But if you listen to what Max Foster said earlier, that time and again, they were told to lay off. They were told to lay off Diana. They were told to lay off. But we have the freedom of speech in the U.K.
CAMEROTA: We have it here too, Richard.
QUEST: No, no. That's what I'm saying. Yes. But Americans always seem to think they're the only ones who have it. We have the freedom of speech in the U.K. You can't go and tell the press you can't go and cover -- covered. One other point here.
CAMEROTA: Quickly.
QUEST: Meghan going on about, I want them to be able to go and have in a garden.
CAMEROTA: What's wrong with that?
QUEST: And Balmoral isn't big enough. Sandringham, Windsor, all the homes that they had.
CAMEROTA: They couldn't travel unencumbered. They couldn't.
QUEST: But they all, the rest of the family managers to go away have holidays. Yes, there are indiscretions such as the pictures of Diana, but the queen manager took Balmoral for six weeks every year.
CAMEROTA: OK, hold that thought. I want to bring in Nischelle Turner now, our dear friend in L.A. Nischelle, always great to see you.
Are they, can they have a more private life in L.A.? Are paparazzi surrounding them constantly in L.A.
NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think they do have a more private life, but if you listen to them in the documentary, they -- Harry specifically says, and Meghan as well, we weren't saying that we wanted privacy. We weren't saying that that's what we wanted. We just wanted more freedom.
So, you know, I think that they kind of live their lives. I mean, we do see paparazzi photos of them at the coffee shop in Santa Barbara or wherever. But that's, you know, part and parcel to being a celebrity in southern California, you're going to see shots of them.
But for the most part, I think they do kind of move around uninhibited at this point.
CAMEROTA: Yes, I think that's different than being chased. I mean, they had to have drivers who knew how to do evasive driving, just like Diana. That's dangerous. I mean, of course, Harry is traumatized from that experience of what happened to his mother.
Richard, let me ask you this to end on this note. If they had done this documentary and just gone after the paparazzi in the U.K. and the media and left the family alone, you'd be OK with all of it.
QUEST: If they'd gone after them and even attacked the institution for the way they'd handled Meghan, I would've been fine with it, but revealing the private conversations within the family and then throwing up this smokescreen of how awful it was again and again and again. That's it. CAMEROTA: OK. Well, Nischelle, it sounds like they've made the right
choice and that they are having a better, a better time in L.A.
TURNER: I don't know how anybody watches the documentary and doesn't come away with the fact that Harry wanted to be away from the family long before Meghan ever entered the picture.
QUEST: Look, the real -- the reality is what you have here with Harry was smoldering embers of resentment on justifiable. Justifiable smoldering embers. And then you add Meghan, who's an accelerant to those embers and you end up with what we've got.
CAMEROTA: Well, then, Richard, you should be happy with where they have ended up. Nischelle, great -- great to see you. Thanks so much for giving us the L.A. perspective. And thanks everybody for watching CNN TONIGHT. Our special royal revelations. We'll be back with more news in just a moment.
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