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NYT Analysis: Officers Gave Nichols 71 Commands In 13 Minutes; Killing Of Tyre Nichols Revives Calls For Police Reform In Congress; WAPO: Some Democrats Are Worried About Kamala Harris's Political Prospects; Kansas City Chiefs To Face Philadelphia Eagles In Super Bowl LVII; Priscilla Presley Is Contesting The Validity Of Lisa Marie Presley's Will; Suspicious String Of Incidents Is Happening At Dallas Zoo. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired January 30, 2023 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I want to bring in Donell Harvin. He is the former head of intelligence for the D.C. Homeland Security Department. Also, here with us, Ron Johnson, retired captain of the Missouri State Highway Patrol and former incident commander in Ferguson, Missouri. Glad to have both of you here today. Thank you for joining me.
I will begin with, Donell, because there was a "New York Times" analysis, which I was particularly interested in. And it found that the officers in this encounter shouted at least 71 commands. Seventy- one commands in approximately 13-minute period. And I want to play a clip, frankly, from that initial stop for a moment. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Get the fuck out the fucking car!
TYRE NICHOLS, BEATING VICTIM: I didn't do anything! Hey, I didn't --
UNKNOWN: I'll spray you!
NICHOLS: All right, all right, all right.
UNKNOWN: On the ground. On the ground.
NICHOLS: All right. All right. You don't that, okay?
UNKNOWN: Get out the fucking car!
NICHOLS: Okay. Okay.
UNKNOWN: Get out the car!
UNKNOWN: I'll tase you!
NICHOLS: All right. I am on the ground. I'm on the ground. UNKNOWN: Stay on the ground! I'm going to tase you! Get on the ground right now!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, just hearing this yet again, frankly, it is anxiety- producing to say the least. And I wonder about this. The screaming, the confusion that must've been sued, the disorienting nature. How disorienting with this have been for somebody to be receiving all of these commands in a way that they're receiving it and, of course, the aggressive nature as well at that initial stop?
DONELL HARVIN, FORMER HEAD OF INTELLIGENCE, D.C. HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT: It is clear he didn't even know what he was getting pulled over for. So, there's that immediate shock getting pulled over. And then many police academies -- I went to the police academy. We were trained not to do that. I'll let your law enforcement analysts get to really the nuts and balls of that.
But when you go to the police academy, they instruct you to have one individual interacting with that -- with that person so that you don't have those conflicting type of commands because -- then people don't know what to do. The more it escalates, the more yelling there is, the confuse the individual gets. And so, that is exactly what you saw there. Later on, it gets even worse.
COATES: It really does. Let me bring in Captain Johnson now. First of all, the confusion, but how calm compared to the officers Tyre Nichols was? He was the one in that video we just played who appeared to be trying to use some kind of de-escalation tactics, the cooler head attempting to prevail.
And I wonder what should the officers have done besides none of this. What should the officers have done to try to mitigate and try to de- escalate? What would have been the appropriate training to follow?
RON JOHNSON, RETIRED CAPTAIN, FORMER INCIDENT COMMANDER IN FERGUSON, MISSOURI: Well, they were a unit, so one person should have been designated to give the commands. There were many commands there. And you're right, so many, there's no way to perform them all, the tone of the conversation, and he was de-escalating.
When you have units like that, use one person as designating. You hear get on the ground, you hear lay on the ground, you put your hands behind your back. And you hear the tone. So, the tone really set a lot of confusion. And you're right, Tyre was really trying to de-escalate it in many ways throughout this encounter.
COATES: By the way, on that point, I mean, we talk about the contradictory commands. We see throughout the video, throughout the time, that he is being told to show me your hand, show me your hands, and yet there is no actual possibility that when both hands are restrained by different officers, he could actually have complied to be able to give his hand or show his hands, not to mention that he was physically injured at that point. The idea, that contradictory commands, did that seem to you as though they never really had an intention of having him to comply and these were intended to just be sucker punches and harming him?
JOHNSON: I think it got to a point where those officers are out of control. They weren't using their training. They were just intent on being aggressive and overpowering Tyre. So, at some point, you're right. Someone is grabbing his hand and someone says, let me see your hands.
And so, he is trying to follow -- who knows what command he is trying to follow because he is hearing so many. So, I think these officers really got outside their training. Most, as we saw in that video, has never been trained, some of the blows and some of the tactics that we saw in these videos.
COATES: And Donell, I want to bring you in because you actually have a new piece out talking about who else should be prosecuted.
And you say prosecute the medics who watch Tyre Nichols die. In one part, you say, in nearly every police involved-murder and abuse of force, there is a silent party on the scene whose actions typically go unnoticed. The rescue and medical responders who failed to trade these victims properly. You say you think that the Memphis Fire Department and those responding should also face criminal charges. Tell me why.
HARVIN: Absolutely. Just because you're not landing blows or kicking doesn't mean that you're not responsible. These individuals have what we call a duty to act, and they breached that duty. You don't have to have a trained eye. You don't need to be a 25-year paramedic like I was to see that. These individuals are mulling around the scene. They're not doing anything. The first thing -- the first rule of medicine is to do no harm.
Clearly, I think, in my personal opinion, my professional opinion, it speaks to an environment, perhaps a culture, in the streets of Memphis for emergency responders where this is -- the norms are accepted. I've worked in a lot of departments, and I would be aghast at seeing this and no one stopping it.
And so, I called these -- you know, these people are silent perpetrators. They are not committing the act of violence, but they're committing passive violence. And we really need to understand the dynamics behind that and why that was so pervasive, that so many people are getting essentially laid off for not doing anything when they should have done something.
COATES: So important. Thank you for your time and insight, both of you, on this very important point. I mean, it was Tyre Nichols whose hands were restrained, not those whose job it was to at least even perform a cursory inspection on what happened.
I want to turn now to Democratic Congressman Steven Horseford. He is the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, here with us this evening. Congressman, thank you for being here. It is difficult to watch this happen go from never again to once again. And in that space and in that vein, legislation possibly could fill back out. I do wonder what your reaction is into what can be done at a legislative level to go from, once again, back to never again.
REP. STEVEN HORSFORD (D-NV): Well, first, thank you for having me on. On behalf of the Congressional Black Caucus, we are committed to doing everything we possibly can, working across party lines with the president, with our community and the families to uplift their voice.
I spoke to Tyre Nichols's father and his mother by phone on Sunday to hear directly from them, to express our condolences on behalf of Congressional Black Caucus, and to ask them what do they want. And what they told me first is to remind people who Tyre Nichols was. He was a son, he was a father, he had purpose and passion and a life ahead of him. He loved skateboarding and photography.
And while going to his mother's home, just 80 yards away, he was pulled away for a supposed traffic violation that resulted in him being beaten. And in the course of that, yelling out mama, and he ended up dying a few days later.
Yes, bad policing practices are happening in Memphis, but the problem is too many of these incidents are happening all over America. Now, this is something that all of us should be able to agree. Bad policing shouldn't exist anywhere in America. This not republican issue or democratic issue. This is about safety. All of us should want safety.
And as a Black man, as a father, as someone who has responsibility to serve my constituents, I want them to come home safe.
HORSFORD: A parent wants a child who leaves to go to the park to come home at the end of the day. All of us want to be able to live in our homes in peace. And if you are stopped in a traffic violation or not, it should not result in you being beaten and ultimately die.
And so, we are working across legislative solutions. We've talked to the president around executive actions that he can take and the administration can take.
COATES: What did the president say about that?
HORSFORD: So, we talked to the president twice today. I did. First is he is very committed to this issue.
We asked him to make this issue of the culture of policing one of the issues that he addresses in his state of the union --
HORSFORD: -- because this is important enough for it to be a part of his national address. We also are meeting with him later this week to talk about what additional actions he can possibly take, commend him for the actions he did last May that we believe there is more that can be done while we work on a bipartisan solution in Congress.
We also reached out and have a meeting with Senator Tim Scott tomorrow and in the coming days to talk about a bipartisan solution in Congress. It is going to take all of us. This is not a black issue or white issue. This is about safety issue in American.
COATES: Do you get a sense that there is an appetite for this to be a bipartisan endeavor as well? Oftentimes, we hear about it and the word anecdote comes to mind, that people will relegate instances like this, obviously anecdotal, disparage, the notion of the bad apple conversations. When you speak about this in a very holistic way, is there an appetite for Republicans who are in power in the House to see it that way?
HORSFORD: You know, I have to remain optimistic. People told us we weren't going to pass a comprehensive gun safety bill. We passed the most comprehensive bill in nearly 30 years. The president was involved in that. We brought both sides together. We passed the infrastructure bill. They told us we couldn't that. We must make our community safer. All of us should agree bad policing shouldn't exist anywhere in America.
One of the other reports that have been shared with me is the fact that in Memphis, for example, the use of force is used three times more often on Black people, Black residents, than on white people in Memphis. They know that. We should know that about every law enforcement agency across America.
That's about having the data to then make good decisions on pattern of practices. Some cities and law enforcement agencies do this. Others don't. That is why we need federal action as one example of a holistic plan.
COATES: I mean, the idea of trying to get away with the patchwork of systems. I mean, trying to police a patchwork of police department. And hope for a uniformed standard is really an exercise in futility. So, I hope there is some comprehensive legislation that is, in fact, coming.
Thank you for your optimism. It is exactly what we need to have. If we stop and give up, then where would we be?
HORSFORD: The American people are counting on us. We're going to work tirelessly across the aisle with all of our stakeholders.
I'll just say one more thing. The American people have a stake in this, too. Call your member of Congress, call your senator, reach out about what you want to have done. Lift up the family of Tyre Nichols and every other family that has been affected. But all of us can do something to get rid of bad policing in America.
COATES: Congressman, thank you for your time. Nice speaking with you today. When we come back, we are going to talk about 2014 and why, according to one of my next guests, some Democrats are worried about Vice President Kamala Harris's political prospect, and what that might mean for President Joe Biden's reelection hopes.
COATES: President Biden is now halfway through his term and it appears that he may decide to seek reelection. That's his intention, he has said it repeatedly, which means there's talk about the presidential ticket.
A new article in "The Washington Post" quotes some Democrats who are quite frankly, well, underwhelmed by Vice President Kamala Harris's tenure in the role. Is that fair criticism or not?
Let's talk about it now with CNN political commentators Jonah Goldberg and Karen Finney, and Cleve Wootson, White House reporter for the "Post" who wrote this really compelling and thought-provoking piece as well. Let me begin with you on this, Cleve, because you spoke to more than a dozen Democratic leaders in key states --
CLEVE WOOTSON, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Uh-hmm.
COATES: -- and they seem to be worried about Vice President Kamala Harris. Why?
WOOTSON: Yeah, I really wanted to codify and cement things that we've been hearing in the rumor mill and grist mill (ph), right, and just talk to as many people as possible about strengths, weaknesses where really Kamala Harris is at this moment.
It's a complex argument, if we're being honest. Folks know that if Kamala Harris is, you know, is the nominee, is the person, that there's going to be all kinds of stuff that will be thrown at her. You know, race, gender, all of this stuff.
And so, the question is, can Kamala Harris sort of overcome all of the stuff that will, you know, come her way if she is the nominee, if she is running for president? And a lot of folks that I talk to just have worries, just have concerns about whether she can do that.
COATES: First of all, it seems, obviously, that Biden, in fact, will not run and that she would be the (INAUDIBLE) apparent as the vice president. Are the concerns surrounding her portfolio? I mean, she has been tasked with really spicing the Adam at this point. There are a lot of things she has been tasked with. Is that the concern?
WOOTSON: Yeah, a lot of the Democrats that I talked to are like county chairs, the folks who understand the arc of democratic policies, but they also are dealing with people on the ground, right? And their concerns with Kamala Harris really deal with their conversation with their neighbors, the people that they're going to go out and try to persuade to vote for her.
It is not necessarily just the portfolio as much as it is how is Kamala Harris as a communicator. Does she make mistakes? Does she inspire people? Does she have the charisma to sort of, you know, win the ticket? For a lot of folks, it is really a lot of cognitive dissonance because many of them have worked a very long time to see a Black woman in this position.
WOOTSON: Right? The big tent party, right? But, at the same time, they also want to win. And that is the question. Does Harris have both the big tent aspect, but also the winning ticket aspect? That's really all they're asking.
COATES: Well, SNL was asking a question about whether this could get a laugh. Let me play for you what they had to say when they did real spoof on classified documents and whether the vice president had any.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Next, special agent Kacey Combs (ph) will discuss if there were any classified documents at Vice President Kamala Harris's home.
UNKNOWN: Come on now.
UNKNOWN: Joe Biden won't even give this woman a pen.
UNKNOWN: You think she has classified documents? Please, Kamala Harris with the classified documents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, you're laughing. What do you think of it, Jonah?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it's funny.
GOLDBERG: But that's mostly why I was laughing. But, look, I think that reflects one side of the argument. There's a bunch of people out there who think that Harris hasn't been given the opportunities to shine and thrive and succeed. You hear that, a lot of that kind of stuff from Harris world, the president hasn't given her -- set her up to succeed.
And then there are a lot of people, I'm more inclined to agree with, who think that she has been given lots of opportunities to succeed and she is just not that great a politician. She came up in a state where -- she was good for California, good for winning in essentially a one- party state where she can work the Democratic Party very well, but there's a reason why her approval rating has been lower than Biden throughout his -- this presidency.
And I think that there's also the fact -- I think you think this is a very good thing. But the Democratic Party is getting out of the business -- I wish the Republican Party would -- getting out of the business of saying that we have to vote for someone who manifest our hopes and dreams and our souls. And instead, tried to nominate people who can win elections. That's not what parties are for.
GOLDBERG: And the aspirational candidate kind of thing, I get a little exhausted with.
COATES: The party is maybe forever. Is that what democracy --
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: -- election (INAUDIBLE) president. (INAUDIBLE) good decision. I mean, it's not just about who can win. It's also about -- more importantly, I just --
GOLDBERG: What does that have to do with anything I said?
FINNEY: You just said -- you said it shouldn't be about manifesting hopes and dreams, this should be about whether or not --
FINNEY: -- you can win an election.
GOLDBERG: And I said the reason Republican Party (INAUDIBLE). That's one of the reasons they nominated Donald Trump. They want a fighter. Didn't care if he could do anything.
FINNEY: Anyway, I feel like -- you know, this story -- obviously, I am close to the vice president. I have worked for women candidates for almost 30 years. A lot of what we're seeing here are just typical tropes. And this narrative comes around and around and around.
You know, there was just an interview last week with the German writing a book about the Biden administration. He may have been on your show. I can't remember. And he talked about how she is the person who the president had informed Ukraine about the impending -- that Russia was about to invade.
But more importantly, here is part of where I think the challenge is. It's always hard when you are a historic first. And I do think that this administration, when they were at campaign, could have done a better job of having more intentionality about understanding.
For example, early on, the people wanted to see more of her because they were excited. But the very job of being the vice president is you're not seen. You're behind the scenes. You're the number two. You're in the supporting role.
COATES: Well, we did see a lot of Vice President Joe Biden.
FINNEY: We didn't. There's a lot -- when I asked people about, for example, when he visited the triangle countries, not a single reporter that I talked to could remember that trip.
COATES: Maybe it wasn't supposed to be remembered.
FINNEY: Exactly. People remember the guests. They maybe remember some of the negotiations around in 2011. My point is just, I also would say that I think we need to remember this role was defined for a white man. And so, by its very definition, with a historic first, it is going to look different, it is going to sound different, it is going to feel different.
My experience has been -- when you think -- consider -- in Tallahassee, Florida, they had to turn away 400 people in the rain. I don't know a Democrat that could get 2,000 out in the rain. So, among the party and the base, she is actually very popular. I know you spoke to some folks who have different opinions. I think they also talked about is just anxiety about sexism and racism.
And, you know, again, I think part of what we have to understand is we have to see her for who she is. I'll give you an example. You know, early on, I had a conversation with reporters about how critical it was. She brought lived experience, different relationships with women's organizations, with reproductive rights organizations. So many -- the "Insider" said, that's why it does matter.
Look at where we are now. That was a critical part of our victory in 2022. And she spent a lot of time talking to Black voters, women and young people which really are the core of the party.
COATES: Did you reach out to her office for comment?
WOOTSON: Oh, of course. Yeah. no comment though from them. Not on the record. I agree. I think that race, gender, and equity always play a role in everything that -- I've been writing about Kamala Harris for three years as VP and then in her campaign before that. But I do think that the Democrats also have a question about competence, about charisma, about any number of things. I don't think that it's okay to take away, to strip away race, gender, all those matters of equity, but I think --
FINNEY: Well, I do a lot of polling and she typically polls very high among Democrats. I mean, she really was very critical in Karen Bass's race. Why? Because she was able to help bring out the Democratic Party base.
Same thing in New York. When (INAUDIBLE) big trouble, who did they call in? Kamala. There were a number of states --
WOOTSON: They're looking for somebody who can win the White House.
FINNEY: I understand. Democrats say -- I'm saying plenty of Democrats who say something very different.
WOOTSON: Well, I'm talking about -- well, I've talked to Democrats across the board. I've talked to ones that were hardcore supporters, the first one to endorse her in South Carolina, the first to endorse her in Georgia, and a woman who cried with joy the night that Kamala Harris was inaugurated.
But I also talk to people who have been supporters of Harris, but also have questions, not about what they feel, but about what their neighbors think, about people who would be voting in a general election. That's what those fears are based because there is some -- there is aspiration. And rightly so. But there is also a desire to win. Biden said on the campaign trail over and over again, in order to govern, you also have to win.
COATES: Well, I'm going to tell you, this is going to be a conversation that we will continue to have. But in breaking news, a woman of color in the limelight (INAUDIBLE).
COATES: Look, everyone, it's going to be a Super Bowl historic proportions. Two Black quarterbacks facing off on the sport's biggest stage for the first time, and it's not the White House. We'll be right back.
COATES: The Super Bowl is set, everyone, on February 12. The Kansas City Chiefs will face off against the Philadelphia Eagles. This Super Bowl will be a big game for firsts. The first time two Black quarterbacks ever face off against each other at the big game and also the first time two brothers, Jason and Travis Kelce, are playing against each other in the Super Bowl. Imagine being their mom.
Joining me now, Super Bowl '22 MVP Doug Williams is here with us. He's also the first Black quarterback to start in and win a Super Bowl. Also, here with, a CNN contributor Cari Champion. I'm glad to have both of you here today as we're reflecting on a history that is about to be made.
I'll begin with you, Doug, if I can, because you, yourself, made history in Super Bowl '22. And now, we are here at 57 for the first time seeing two Black quarterbacks against each other in the big game. What is your reaction and feeling about this moment?
DOUG WILLIAMS, SUPER BOWL '22 MVP, FIRST BLACK QUARTERBACK TO START AND WIN A SUPER BOWL: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. You know, I can remember some 45 years ago (INAUDIBLE) image in myself was, uh, first two Black quarterbacks playing in a regular NFL game back when I was in Tampa and he was in Chicago. And last night, when I was sitting there watching Patrick, I had already seen (INAUDIBLE) win his game, sitting there watching Patrick, (INAUDIBLE) came through to me, from the emotional standpoint. You know, I got kind of emotional to see that really happening, that 35 years later, tomorrow is the 35-year anniversary, and to see that happened last night was really gratifying to me.
You know, I know it might mean to lot other people (INAUDIBLE), those kinds of guys, but to see this happened today and knowing that we came a long way, we still got a long way to go.
COATES: First of all, my father would be thrilled I'm talking to you. Second of all, being from Minnesota, thank you for mentioning a Viking as well. We appreciate you for that moment right there.
A quick follow-up to you on this point. I mean, it's not just that it's a history being made by two Black quarterbacks. They're also extremely two talented quarterbacks. I don't want that ever to get lost in the conversation. What will you be looking for in this matchup?
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, both of them are so good at what they do. Jalen, for instance, I watched Jalen when he was in college, his early years, the first couple of years in Alabama, and watching him now and seeing how much he has done to make himself out of a quarterback.
You know, I don't want people to say that he's an athletic quarterback. Yes, he can run. But he also can stand in the pocket and throw the ball and re-defense and run if he has to. He is not playing a position because he can run. He was playing because he could think and he could get the ball down the field.
And when you talk about Patrick, I don't think anybody can say anything about Patrick. But what he's done since he started quarterback can see because nobody can play the way he's playing. And the toughness is there. So, when you have to guys like that, you got two of the best quarterbacks in football game.
COATES: Cari, I want to bring you in here as well because it's something that Doug just said, about that they're thinking players as well. And so often, you and I both know the way that many talks about athletes in this country, especially in the sport of football, there is a lot of coded language that is used to talk about and describe.
And I wonder if you could speak to the idea of, you know, although you have so many Black men in particular who really comprise a majority of football players in the professional league, you don't often see many quarterbacks that are Black, number one.
And number two, they're often described, as Doug was alluding to, very differently as opposed to thinking -- the intellectual player described in terms of their physical stature and beyond and athleticism, so to speak.
Speak to me about this historic nature, what we're seeing in the way it's being talked about.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first off, it's an honor to be here with Doug Williams. I want to underscore the importance of what he was able to do as a very first Black quarterback to start and also win a Super Bowl. We honor you.
I feel as if 2023 is far too late for us to say, guess what, we have two Black starting quarterbacks in the Super Bowl. It is the narrative of Black quarterbacks. It's old. It's tired. And quite frankly, we've seen over and over again that these Black quarterbacks have been able to not only sustain the position and be more than serviceable in the position but we can go down the list.
If we talk about Michael Vick, if we talk about Cam Newton, there have been so many before these two young men now. What these two young men now, when we see what they're doing, what they are doing as quarterbacks is more than historic. They are the generation. They are the next Brady versus Manning. They are the future of quarterbacks in the NFL.
What I would like for us to really take away from this, though, Laura, is that looking at these Black quarterbacks, it is far too discouraging for these head coaches that are not Black to see these Black quarterbacks in these positions.
This is the conversation now that we need to have, to say, guess what, if we're looking at these Black quarterbacks starting in the Super Bowl who have made their way, who paid their dues, isn't it time for us to look for their head coaches? Isn't it a time to have that conversation as we've been trying to have? We continue to push this aside.
I can tell you right now that there are offensive coordinators and defensive coordinators who have helped these young men get to the point where they are right now and succeed at this level, right? That's the ultimate, which is winning this game and getting to the game, and they don't see a Black quarterback on the sidelines -- a black head coach, rather, on the sidelines.
And I'm so grateful that we're having this moment where we're celebrating these two young kids, right? They're so young, 27 and 24. And they're winning at the highest level. And I know that there is a Black head coach sitting somewhere, thinking, it's my turn, too.
And so, I'm glad that we're having this conversation. It is far too ridiculous in 2023 that we are celebrating two Black quarterbacks when that should just be the norm. It shouldn't even be a conversation.
COATES: I hear you, Cari. I hear you quite well. And I hope that -- Doug Williams lost his visual, but I hope he heard the praises that you sang to him. And obviously, the idea, I'm sure that there are so many people right now who are anticipating the Super Bowl who want to be in the big game, let alone to have been the MVP like Doug Williams. Thank you both this evening. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:40:00]
COATES: Priscilla Presley contesting the validity of her late daughter, Lisa Marie Presley's will. Division comes just days after Presley laid her daughter to rest at Graceland.
Joining me now is CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson and thewrap.com founder and editor-in-chief Sharon Waxman. Thank you both for being here.
I want to begin with you, Sharon, on this. What changes were made to Lisa Marie Presley's will back in 2016 that Priscilla is challenging?
SHARON WAXMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE WRAP: So, she's saying that the trustee was changed. She is challenging the fact that an amendment was filed to make the trustee, Riley and her brother, Benjamin, who is no longer with us, and that means, basically, that Priscilla Presley is challenging her granddaughters', you know, validity to be the person who is now dealing with her mother's estate.
I just say that in these kinds of cases when you have these huge celebrities, it is really not that unusual that the family ends up in a big public dispute. She is saying that the signature doesn't look like it is Lisa Marie's. She is saying that she was not informed of this change to the trusteeship that she has. Shew is claiming that she wants to remain the trustee of that will.
And so, there's going to be a lot of money at stake care, but it really is putting a grandmother against a granddaughter. It's very unfortunate.
COATES: Very sad to think about. And Joey, I mean, the idea that Sharon points out, it is not unheard of to have disputes, particularly in the idea of an estate.
But talk to me about what the next steps might be and the idea of -- are there -- are these really problems that you have seen and what can be done in terms of trying to validate a will? Will these issues that have been identified be fatal to what comes next?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Laura, good to be with you and Sharon. Listen, the reality is that, you know, Laura, it is all about the evidence and all about the proof. And if someone has a will, a will, of course, is a document, and if you want a mandate, it is legally binding in the event that there are certain formalities in place.
In order to do that, right, witnesses have to witness what you do. Certainly, there should not be a misspelling of a name if it happens, you know, certainly, to be your mom. And so, someone can change it to whatever they want, but to your question and the point is that it is subject to an evidentiary hearing. And at that hearing, it would have to be established that it's an authentic document.
In the event that you have a will, you can put in place and do anything and everything you want. It is up to you. Right? It is your prerogative with respect to how you want to control your assets and who you want to leave them to.
But if the formalities are not in place, it is subject to challenge. At such a hearing, there would be an opportunity to determine whether it's valid or not. If it is not valid, of course, and it's contested as it is, then it is declared invalid. And as a result of that, you can see the changes that are being made. In the event it is deemed to be authentic, then the will then pursues as it is right now.
And so, I think, regardless, it is the person's right to do it. The bottom line is to get it right and to have it right, and hopefully, at such a hearing, it will be determined that it is right. So, we will see what happens moving forward.
COATES: Joey Jackson taken us back to law school. Professor, I'm going to call you from now on, on this very notion. Sharon, really quickly on the time we have left --
JACKSON: You remember that.
COATES: Look, I'm impressed. I got to ask you, Sharon, really quick. I mean, the idea, this is -- I mean, this family, in particular, and the state we are talking about, very significant.
WAXMAN: Yeah. I mean, there are reports that there are millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars in a life insurance policy. Lisa Marie gone to a dispute with her business manager a few years ago and was suing him for squandering $100 million, estate that she had from her father. So, there is money on the line here. We still don't know how much money. Obviously --
WAXMAN: -- Lisa Marie debts (ph). And it is going to be messy. I'm just going to remind our viewers that it took more than a decade to settle Michael Jackson's estate when he died. And he died swimming in debt, for those of us who remember that story, which included me. But there was money there and it ended up going to his mother and his children and some charities. But it took, I believe, 12 years for that to get settled (ph).
COATES: We will follow what happens here. Thank you both. I appreciate it so much. Everyone, up next, another mystery at the Dallas Zoo. We will explain, next.
COATES: Well, the Dallas Zoo, it has been struck again, people. This time, two emperor tamarin monkeys are now missing. Now, the zoo officials say that it is clear that their habitat has now been intentionally compromised. And police say it looks like the animals were actually taken. Now, the area around their habitat has been searched. And presently, there is no sign of the monkeys.
If you recall, earlier this very month, the clouded leopard escaped after the fence in her habitat was cut. Now, the leopard in the scenario was eventually found. Zoo officials then discovered the langur monkey enclosure was tampered with, but no langurs escaped. Then, an endangered lappet-faced vulture was found dead in its own habitat. The zoo says it did not die of natural causes.
I want to bring in now wildlife biologist Jeff Corwin, host of "Wildlife Nation." Jeff, what is happening now? We're talking about now a fourth animal that has been impacted and two now missing? What are you thinking?
JEFF CORWIN, WILD BIOLOGIST, HOST OF WILDLIFE NATION: Well, there is definitely a crime underway and the great spectrum of wildlife on our planet is paying the price. Again, Dallas Zoom, a world-class zoo, but there had been a major problem on their hand.
I'm quite challenged, now that they know that they have this challenge with losing these animals with animals being killed, for example, the lappet-faced vulture.
In this case, these incredibly charismatic little primates, you know, when you think of a monkey, Laura, you probably think of something big like a spider monkey or a chimpanzee, like an ape. But these emperor tamarins are really about this big. They're a tiny, very charismatic monkey. They actually are named after the German Emperor Wilhelm II with his big, long, prestigious moustache.
This is a creature that falls prey to the black market wildlife trade, which is $60 billion a year industry. So, I remember earlier conversation, we were talking about, could this be stolen and then sold to the black market? This is a species that is an ideal candidate for that.
COATES: I mean, just thinking about that, I'm wondering not only about being a candidate for that, but also how would they be surviving outside of the habitat. I would suspect that there is a lot of regulation in terms of their food, in terms of what their enclosure looks like. Could the average person, even who is trying to then use and sell them on the black market, they might be in danger even trying to replicate that habitat.
CORWIN: Well, I would say whoever this nefarious character is, who put the clouded leopard at jeopardy, who has impacted those other very rare monkeys from southeast Asia, who is likely killed the lappet vulture, this is like a very -- this is a horrible version of animal clue, who done it.
But with this creature right here, my guess is that this nefarious character probably knows a little bit about animals. This person is getting unusual access. This individual can get inside the zoo and know how to negotiate, where to cut in, and it's almost like he's testing the waters, like someone who, you know, is committing that first fire and then goes back, watches the blaze.
It is like there is a real neurosis to this criminal. And unfortunately, now these animals are disappearing, these very precious, precocious primates.
My guess is that they'll figure out how to take care of these animals. These little monkeys are probably more used to people and accustomed to their zoological keepers and handlers than, for example, the clouded leopard is.
COATES: Thank you so much. We will talk to you again.
CORWIN: Thank you very much.
COATES: Look, thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.