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CNN Tonight

Trump Expects to be Indicted, Timing Remains Unclear; Two Fatal Shootings in Miami Beach Prompt Crackdown; Ted Lasso Cast in the White House Briefing Room; Skilled Workers in Massive Shortage; Wife of Bruce Willis Celebrates Bruce Willis' Birthday with a Message. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired March 20, 2023 - 22:00   ET




ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone, I'm Alisyn Camerota, welcome to CNN TONIGHT.

Is former President Trump about to be indicted? As you know, he's facing the possibility of criminal charges over that hush money payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels. A source close to the Trump legal team tells CNN, if Trump is actually indicted, they do not expect an arrest before next week. And the prosecutors say they have not made a final decision.

So, tonight, we will dive into all of this. Should Donald Trump be indicted? Are prosecutors considering the national security implications? And if any of us were accused of the same thing, would we be indicted? Our panel of experts are here to answer those question.

Plus, chaos in Miami Beach during spring break, two people were shot to death on the streets over the weekend, huge unruly crowds. One local official calls it a criminal takeover. I will speak to him in just a moment.

And Ted Lasso took over the White House press room today.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, you have a familiar face. Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fake journalist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. Gus Trent, nice to see you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel about Kansas City being one of the named hosting cities for the 2026 World Cup?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here, I was hoping for a softball.


CAMEROTA: We will tell you what Ted Lasso and Jason Sudeikis and the White House want everyone to know about mental health.

Okay. We've got a lot to talk about tonight. So, here with me, the star theGrio, Natasha Alford, a man who loves a good talking heads reference, David Urban, attorney who knows a lot about presidents and legal trouble, Watergate Prosecutor Nick Akerman, and the somewhat series host at the Very Serious podcast, Josh Barro. Great to see all of you guys tonight. Thanks so much for being you here.


CAMEROTA: All right. So, let's do this thought exercise that I've been doing all day about this possible Trump indictment, because I want to hear all of your thoughts on this, if this were a regular person, if this were any of us and we had paid a hush money payment to someone that we had had of an alleged tryst with and we basically falsified our internal business records about it, would the Manhattan D.A. be indicting us? Nick, go ahead.

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: It depends. I mean, again, you're saying you have to make the premise that you're falsifying the records to basically cheat on your taxes. That's what you have to premise it on.

CAMEROTA: I see, that you're making a leap, because the actual charge isn't that Donald Trump cheated the IRS or cheated on his taxes, it was internal records.

AKERMAN: No, the internal records were used to prepare the tax returns. So, by creating those internal records that are false, that's what cheated the IRS. It's also the internal records of the Trump Organization that related to the financial statements that were filed false, that cheated banks, that cheated insurance companies. I mean, there's one overarching theme here that is falsification of documents of the Trump Organization, cheated a whole host of people, including the government, the insurance companies and the banks. And that is really what we're waiting to see.

CAMEROTA: So, not a victimless crime?

AKERMAN: It's not a victimless crime, by no means.

CAMEROTA: Okay. So, isn't the answer then yes, that if any of us did that, that we would be indicted --

AKERMAN: Of course, you would.

CAMEROTA: So, you say yes. Okay.

AKERMAN: Of course, you would.


JOSH BARRO, HOST, VERY SERIOUS PODCAST: Well -- but, I mean, any of those crimes, if there was a good way to charge them correctly, they could be charged -- if they could be charged correctly, he could be charged with tax fraud. He could -- my understanding of the theory that the D.A. would pursue here would be that it was a campaign finance violation. The idea --

AKERMAN: But that's the whole problem. Everybody is saying that and we don't know what that indictment is going to look like. We just don't know.

BARRO: Is there a reason to believe that he saved on his taxes here? I mean, whether you say it was a payment to attorney or you say that it was hush money payment is a business expense, either way, why would that lower your tax bill to mischaracterize the nature of why you were spending the money in the first place.

AKERMAN: Because it's not a valid deduction to deduct payments of hush money to keep people quiet when you're claiming them falsely as moneys paid to an attorney for proper legal --

BARRO: Well -- but that, I mean -- again, I mean, this is -- you could have -- if it was evasion of federal taxes, you could have charged in federal court.


I mean, the weird thing about the campaign finance violation is -- the question is was this done for a campaign purpose, did you make the payment because you thought it would help you get elected president or did you make the payment because you were embarrassed or because you were trying to hide from your wife for all sorts of things? You could similarly have an issue about whether you're making the payment to protect your business reputation.

CAMEROTA: So, what's the answer? Do you think that any of us would be -- a regular person would be charged?

BARRO: No, and he has not been charged with any of these crimes directly, nor was he charged with any of the issues around valuations of properties. I mean, that was what the Manhattan D.A. was looking into some years ago. And they had a prosecution. They prosecuted the Trump Organization, they prosecuted Allen Weisselberg.

AKERMAN: But that may be, which they never charged. We don't know that.

BARRO: We don't know that. But, I mean, the manner in which this investigation has proceeded and the thing that they shutdown and then reopened, I think, strongly suggests that they are -- and that already had the trial with Allen Weisselberg.

AKERMAN: But that's not true.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, listen, Michael Cohen -- just let me say this. Michael Cohen, who is the key witness in this, says that we don't know all that the D.A. has. Of course, that's true. But he said -- I mean, since he's had more of a window into it than any of us, he says that what we all think it is, that there is more there.

URBAN: And Michael Avenatti tweeted from jail today said that, once, we do know what is there, that the prosecution will be knocked on its butt. That's according to Michael Avenatti.

CAMEROTA: Is that really what Michael Avenatti --

URBAN: He tweeted it out today. I was surprised. I asked Elie earlier today, I said, how did he tweet from jail? And he said, presumably, he got an email, he sends it out to somebody and he tweets. But he said, I have seen this, I've seen these documents, I know it's here. I was a part of all this. And if the Trump lawyers get a hold of this, prosecutors will be embarrassed, right? So, we don't know what's there so let's wait and see.

But the notion that somehow Donald Trump is sitting with his laptop at home on TurboTax, right, dropping things and pull down menus and doing his taxes himself is somewhat, I think, naive. This was -- you may know, like Donald Trump is not big on granularity, right? So, I'm guessing that however this was categorized by Allen Weisselberg or somebody else in the organization, it was unknown to the former president.

CAMEROTA: And, Nick, I'll let you answer that in a second, but, Natasha, your thoughts?

NATASHA ALFORD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I would hope there would be more to the case considering that this has been called one of the hardest cases to prove, right, after all of the different pots that are kind of cooking right now for what Donald Trump could be held accountable for. But I think if I could go 10,000-foot, if that's okay, I think the reason why it's somewhat easy to dismiss for the average person is because Donald Trump's behavior, the thing he's been accused of, have been so egregious that this seems small compared to a phone call trying to change the course of the election.

So, I think given how long the time span has been between what these accusations are and now it finally being brought up, the public imagination just -- it doesn't evoke the same outrage as before.

CAMEROTA: So, Nick, back to what David was just saying, he wasn't doing his own tax. He can make the argument, I don't keep my internal records at the Trump Organization and I do my own taxes. Can't he wash his hands of it that way?

AKERMAN: Good luck to him. First of all, he took the Fifth Amendment 450 times, meaning that he basically said that a truthful answer to any of those questions on each of those crimes would tend to incriminate me. I can't believe that Alvin Bragg doesn't have at least five to ten of those that he can get to the jury on with Donald Trump that he can combine with this particular hush payment. And the fact that you are creating these false documents, you know that they're being done basically so you don't have to pay taxes, so you don't have to -- you get better rates on your bank loans, you get better rates on your insurance and you're cheating people right across the board.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I don't know that. Maybe he was doing --

URBAN: I would say most Americans think all corporations do that if you took a poll, right? CAMEROTA: But that doesn't make it right.

URBAN: No, I'm not saying it makes it right. But if you said would the tax attorneys try to lower you're your burden? Absolutely. Your tax attorneys try to structure your deals and your finances so you pay less taxes and more? Absolutely.

BARRO: But you have to prove that in court. Falsifying business records in New York is a misdemeanor unless you are doing it in furtherance of another crime, in which case, it's a felony. But then you have to show that he was doing it in the furtherance of another crime. And then you essentially have to litigate what that crime would be. The intent requirements for tax crimes and for campaign finance crimes are going to be extremely high.

The theory here if it was a campaign finance related prosecution is actually similar to the one that federal prosecutors tried and failed to prosecute John Edwards on. And it's extremely hard to demonstrate both the people -- the specific reason that people were making a payment like this they might make for many reasons. And then, generally, with campaign finance crimes, you have to show the people knew that what they were doing was illegal, which is hard, in general, and it's especially hard with Donald Trump.

And as from taking the Fifth Amendment, the whole point of the Fifth Amendment is that you're allowed to take the Fifth Amendment. And the civil proceeding you can drive inferences from that, but in a criminal proceeding, you can't point to Donald Trump took the Fifth and say, hey, he must be guilty, he took Fifth.


That's what the Fifth is for.

URBAN: Three nos, one yes.

AKERMAN: But you get 450 crimes --

ALFORD: And one bigger picture --

CAMEROTA: That's right, and I appreciate it. But today, so it's interesting to hear the D.A., Alvin Bragg said that he hadn't decided yet. Not that he said that directly but that was our reporting, is that they hadn't exactly decided yet.

And here is The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board on what their thoughts are. They say prosecutors use their discretion every day not to bring charges for any number of reasons. Mr. Bragg came into office vowing not to charge numerous nonviolent crimes, against public order. A wise prosecutor must consider the potential harm to confidence in the rule of law and bringing a prosecution that at least half the country will deem political. And it is true, on his first day, Alvin Bragg put out this list of low level crimes that he would not be prosecuting. Number nine was outdated offenses, such as adultery, which hints at insight.

So, what are your thoughts about what's next?

ALFORD: I mean, I'm very interested in how other members of the GOP have actually responded to Donald Trump's reaction to it. I think it says a lot. Because regardless of what happens to this case, it seems there's some fear, there's some anxiety around what Donald Trump is trying to channel when he calls people to come out and to rally in his defense.

You saw that DeSantis sort of discouraged people from going out there but said -- took a swipe at Donald Trump. Marjorie Taylor Greene saying, we're not going to New York, that's just communist Democrats, but I'm going to go down to Texas and support him. So, there seems to be a backing away now that we've seen how serious January 6th was and the fact that this whole conversation about Donald Trump's role in that really seems like a stain on the party.

URBAN: It will also be interesting, I think, this may be one of the cases that's much easier to kind of step up and speak up about, right? You get to the Fulton County case, may not be so many voices. You get a federal indictment, maybe even less, right?

So, this is a place where if you're in the Republican Party, it's kind of a safe space to come out and say, that nasty Democrat in New York, right? It's easier to come out to make the case against that.

AKERMAN: But it depends what the allegations are.

URBAN: Well, absolutely, yes, we haven't seen it yet today. Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes. All right, friends, thank you very much for all of that.

Coming up, one city official says spring break is actually a criminal takeover in Miami Beach. Two people have been killed. But there's a plan to deal with the chaos. I'll speak to that official next.



CAMEROTA: Spring break in Miami Beach turned violent this weekend. Two people were shot to death on the street. One city official says there's been a criminal takeover of the city. That city commissioner joins me now, Commissioner Alex Fernandez. Commissioner, thanks so much for being here.

What do you mean there's been a criminal takeover of your city?

ALEX FERNANDEZ, MIAMI BEACH CITY COMMISSIONER: Well, I want to, say Miami Beach is a beautiful city, Miami Beach is a safe city, but we know there are two weekends out of the year, during spring break, when we have criminal behavior that takes over the streets of our iconic Ocean Drive. And the message has to be, clear Miami Beach is shutting the door on spring break. We are not going to allow this criminal takeover to continue in our city anymore. And I'm going to be proposing measures out at our next commission meeting to make sure that history does not repeat itself. We saw it in 2021, when people were murdered in our streets and we were forced to implement an emergency measure. It happened again in 2022 and history repeated again itself this year. We need to act ahead and need to pass some measures now so that doesn't happen in 2024.

CAMEROTA: We'll get to those measures in a second, but can you just describe what it is like? Are these college students that are coming in? And like what we traditionally think of this spring break, college students drinking too much coming into a city being rowdy, or is there something else that has come to Miami Beach?

FERNANDEZ: Listen, I highly doubt that these are your typical spring breakers. They're lawbreakers. They're not students. These are people that are coming into our city, a lot of them probably know each other. Some of these incidents seem to be targeted. You have a guy walking down the street that pulls out a gun, shoots someone in the head in the middle of Ocean Drive, and that's not right.

And that doesn't define who we are as a city, because the rest of the year, we are a safe city. In fact, during the day, during spring break, where a tale of two cities. During the day time, we have positive activations (ph). We have the international volleyball tournament happening our streets, arts and concerts going on. And then comes nighttime and you have a criminal takeover where you have our police officers outnumbered by thousands of people who even tried flipping cars on Ocean Drive.

And the message has to be clear, Miami Beach is shutting the door on spring break because they're not spring breakers. They are lawbreakers that are destroying the image of a beautiful and safe city.

CAMEROTA: Okay. So, let's talk about what city officials like yourself and police can do. What's the answer?

FERNANDEZ: Well, listen, we have hundreds of police officers within a very small area of our city. We talking about 5th Street to 15th Street. We have hundreds of officers from Miami Beach there. We've reinforced with officers for Miami-Dade County. In addition to our municipal partners, in addition to even ATF agents that are deployed out there, where we have license plate readers so that we can intercept those individuals that have outstanding warrants.

But what we have learned is that we have a gun violence issue. And for next year, one of the things that I am proposing that I want to see implemented for next year is setting a controlled environment. We know that we have an issue on Ocean Drive, in Lummus Park. We need to have centralized checkpoints with metal detectors where everyone has to go through to make sure we do not have guns penetrating into this area.

And from now, we need to start saying, based on history, based on the fact that for three years in a row, we have had to institute a curfew in the third weekend of March, we need to say now, that for next year, we will be implementing the curfew for 2024 so that the message is clear. We are shutting the door of spring break. If we need to rollback business hours, we should be doing that now for next year.


And if we need a restriction on alcohol sales, let's implement it now so that the word gets out into the world. Miami Beach is not your playground for spring break, go somewhere else. CAMEROTA: Commissioner Fernandez, thank you very much. We certainly

hope that the violence now is tamped down in Miami Beach. Thank you very much for being with us.

FERNANDEZ: Thank you. Miami Beach is a safe city and it will continue being under our watch.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

My panel is back with me, also Ana Navarro joins us, a resident of Miami-Dade. So, what's it like?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'm pissed as hell, because I'm a Miami-Dade resident, I pay raise taxes to Miami-Dade. Miami-Dade a county with 30,000-some, 30-some municipalities, including Miami Beach. And I avoid Miami Beach every March and April like if there were zombies flesh, that spread the bubonic plague every single year. And I've heard the same outrage from city officials year- after-year and nothing gets done.

And so my money doesn't go to Miami Beach because I don't dare across the causeway in that time. I don't know what they're going to do about it but they have got to do something about it.

CAMEROTA: You know, guns change everything, David. And so what used to be just, as we said, raucous bathing suits and people drinking too much, now there's gun violence. And what he's suggesting to change spring break is having a cordoned off area with metal detectors on the beach or on the streets or bars to college students can go through. That's what it's come to.

NAVARRO: These are not college kids.

CAMEROTA: But (INAUDIBLE) spring break, our traditional thought of spring break, whoever is bringing the guns is ruining for the traditional spring breakers.

NAVARRO: Right. But these are not college kids.

URBAN: I was going to say to his point, he said, there're lawbreakers and there're spring breakers, I think these are lawbreakers. And, look, if you put up a cord and put up mags, people are going to go someplace else. The bad people will go other places, right? The good people are go inside the mags, they'll have fun, the bad people will stay outside and create problems someplace else.

So, I think it's a systemic problem, it needs to be approached holistically. And if you have curfews that they're doing now and they're going to increase police presence, I think that will help. If you go to New Orleans, you go to Mardi Gras, right, there are very raucous, lots of drinking, alcohol consumption and minimal crime for whatever reason, and lots of cities may have to do this, I'm not quite sure why this specific part of one town has a specific problem. I don't know.

CAMEROTA: What do you think?

ALFORD: It seems like a branding problem, right? As we said, this is spring break, so people come kind of knowing they're looking for raucous, they're knowing they can get away with it. As you said, we've been hearing these stories for years back-to-back. Back in 2020, 100 people arrested in one weekend over spring break but met with America's gun problem, which I think that was the key of that interview. It's not going away and it's touching every single part of our lives, whether you're talking about going to church or you're going to school or you're going to spring break. And so until you address that fundamental problem, I mean, all of this is putting band- aids on the issue. I think it's going to continue to --

URBAN: Yes. But there's spring break at Ft. Lauderdale, South Padre Island, there are plenty of spring break locations, and I said like Mardi Gras, right? Mardi Gas, it goes on, it's raucous, it is out of control in lots of ways but there's not gun violence. I'm not quite sure why.

ALFORD: And that's why I say it's a branding problem as well, because once people know that has a -- it's a reputation for getting away with it, they can continue to --

BARRO: I think it's conceivable that the metal detectors might be helpful next year. It's a fairly contained geographical area on Ocean -- on -- basically on the beachfront of Miami Beach. But, I mean, Ft. Lauderdale went through this in the 1980's. They had a problem with disorder at spring break and the city basically decided we don't really want to be the spring break capital anymore.

CAMEROTA: But they didn't have gun violence at that time.

BARRO: No. But the strategy -- I mean, what the commissioner said about communicating in advance what we're going to do that's not going to be fun, the value in that and getting people who might cause trouble not to show up, there's value in that.

And at that time, it really was college kids and they were having campaign on college campuses saying don't come to Ft. Lauderdale, you'll be arrested if you have an open container. They went to bars and other public facilities, they did a lot of enforcement around are you over your capacity or are you serving minors, that sort of thing. They basically clamped down on the fun to an extent that was successful in driving the party away. So, it might be possible for Miami Beach to have success with something like that that's communicated in advance.

NAVARRO: I really hope you're right. Here's the problem. Miami Beach has great clubs, great restaurants, and it's 80 degrees while it's 38 degrees in New York. And so we have a real problem and they have to take very specific and concrete measures because this is getting worse and worse and worse by the year. I live there. I've lived in Miami- Dade for 43 years now. And I am beyond myself that there's an area of my county that, for me, is completely off limits for basically three weeks.


Because I think that if I crossed the causeway, I might die.

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, you have reason to be concerned. In the past three weeks, which is during the spring break time, they had 332 arrests this year and they confiscated 70 guns off the street.

NAVARRO: I'll tell you what they have to do. They have to work with people who own the clubs. They have to work with the people who own the restaurants. They have to work with law enforcement. They have to work with the county. They have to work -- I mean, it's got to be a holistic approach.

CAMEROTA: Well, what do you want the restaurants to do?

NAVARRO: I don't know what the hell the restaurants are going to do, but I know this. I know that I spent a lot of money at Miami Beach restaurants and I know I don't spend it for three weeks during spring break.

ALFORD: Yes. And to Ana's point, the businesses matter. They just had a commissioner's meeting, a commerce meeting, excuse me, business owners were yelling at the city council members because they were saying, we do not want to extend the overnight curfew. So, there is conflicting interests and needs and they have to work together if they're going to get a solution.

CAMEROTA: Yes, great point. Thank you all very much.

NAVARRO: I want to go back to Miami Beach.

CAMEROTA: Who doesn't? We all wanted to be safe there for everybody.

Meanwhile, Jason Sudeikis was at the White House today talking Ted Lasso, mental health and taking questions.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here, I was hoping for a softball.




CAMEROTA: I'm sorry that you're getting that.

URBAN: Oh, who cares. Who does not?

CAMEROTA: Oh, by the way, Happy International Day of Happiness everyone. And refuses to observe it. She's decided that she's not observant of it. We can see that.


CAMEROTA: In the event what? You give up religion. I like that.

NAVARRO: And that will be my International Day of Happiness if Donald Trump gets indicted. I will be out in the streets.

CAMEROTA: Way to weave it together. Way to weave all of our segments together. I like that.

NAVARRO: Dancing salsa.

CAMEROTA: All right, but it really is the International Happiness Day today, and of course -- no, I'm not kidding, and I'm going to tell you why it is later, but first one of the happiest shows, "Ted Lasso," was at the White House today and the cast met with President Biden and the First Lady, and they discussed, obviously something very important in this country, mental health, and the importance of support and community. Before the meeting, Jason Sudeikis, also coached Ted Lasso, took questions in the White House briefing room. So, take a look at this.


JASON SUDEIKIS, ACTOR: Yes, sir. Familiar face. Hi.

UNKNOWN: That's right. Great. Fake journalist. I guess a trend. Nice to see you. How did you feel about Kansas City being one of the main hosting cities for the 2026 World Cup.

SUDEIKIS: Oh, there I was hoping for a softball. Okay. You know what, very excited, truth be told, yeah. Kansas City is going to be one of these teams. I mean, I love this town. What I am generally worried about, is once we get all these folks from all over the world come to Kansas City and see our city, eat our food, you know people, we're going to have, you know, lot of folks, they don't want to move away, that's what I'm worried about.


CAMEROTA: I love those guys. I'm so happy to see Ted Lasso back.

URBAN: Kansas City native.

CAMEROTA: Yeah, he is. He's a Kansas City native. How about those stuffed shirts in the briefing room. People weren't laughing out enough, I thought.

URBAN: By the way, that's the most crowd that I think I've seen that briefing room.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. That's true. That's true, but I mean --

URBAN: Who put Karine? She's probably like, why all this people show up for me? NAVARRO: There was a reporter, I don't know who he is or where he's

from, who was -- he behaved like he was raised by wolves today.

CAMEROTA: What did he do?

NAVARRO: He was protesting, he was speaking up to the point where, one of the journalists there apologized to the people in America because they're supposed to be doing their job there. He was doing it while they were trying to give this press conference. I think it's so important that we are normalizing mental health struggles and challenges. I think it is crucial that we take the stigma out of it, that we take the shame out of it, and that we talk about it openly.

CAMEROTA: I appreciate you saying that and I think that's part of what "Ted Lasso" has done, which is that's a plot line, obviously. So, it was a plotline in the past few seasons of "Ted Lasso" where he suffers from panic attacks because of everything that he's gone through. So, let's listen to what Jason Sudeikis, who of course plays Ted Lasso, said about mental health today at the White House.


SUDEIKIS: And no matter who you are, no matter where you live, no matter who you voted for, we all probably, I assume, we all know someone who has, or been that someone ourselves, actually, that struggled, that's felt isolated, that's felt anxious, that has felt alone, right? And it's actually one of the many things, that believe it or not, that we all have in common.


CAMEROTA: Natasha, it's so interesting, we are so much more conscious of mental health issues and struggles than we were 10 years ago say, and open -- you know, removing the stigma by talking about it openly.

NATASHA ALFORD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: And I think stories like this, right, the storytelling, shows like this are important for normalizing, that and changing. I know that I grew up in a household where even talking about therapy, that was seen as like a cultural thing. Like our people don't really do that, and we've gotten rid of that. A new generation has come up. They're telling their stories on social media.

But ironically, I think social media also contributes to some of the depression that we have. We know the isolation that is a risk factor for depression. So, it's like while we're sharing our stories, at the same, time I think we still need to get in rooms together and make sure that we are practicing community and really looking out for each other.

CAMEROTA: Good point, double edged sword. Yeah. I mean, I agree that 20 years ago, maybe longer, four years ago, going to therapy was, and you're saying, it was a cultural no, no. And also, like a gender -- I mean, a lot of men felt that that was for sissies.

URBAN: Yeah. And listen, I -- this is kind of maybe my cultural background. I come from military from West Point, around people serving the military, you know, 20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq, a lot of people came back, suffered from a lot of things.


And I think that by seeing soldiers, tough guys, right, really tough men come back from serving Special Forces and in combat, going and getting therapy. I think that gave permission to lots of other men to say, it's okay for me to go and talk to somebody. So, I think that was very helpful on the way as well.


JOSH BARRO, HOST, VERY SERIOUS PODCAST: Yeah, I know. I think that's right. I mean, I think an unfortunate interaction between this and our politics is there has been a sort of fashion for hopelessness in politics that feeds into personal feelings that people have that basically like, or like everything is so terrible in the world, and therefore how can you possibly be happy.

I think it's important to talk about mental health while also talking about in an optimistic way, about that things can be addressed, and there are so many great things in the world to be happy about. And finding the way to allow yourself to be happy about that, which very often includes the necessity of mental health (inaudible). There is a very optimistic story to tell.

NAVARRO: I think we have to give credit to Joe Biden and this White House, his administration for normalizing it. For bringing it into the White House and giving it that pulpit, right? The White House press briefing, because, you know, it's the biggest pulpit in America and he's doing it. So, thank you (inaudible).

At the league in there about international happy to, stay talk about supporting culture, as one of the things as noted about this, country is they have a great health care system.

URBAN: I can say (inaudible) International Happiness Day and what countries and you know; Finland was noted there and one of the things that -- you talked about earlier in this, support and culture and that's one of the things that was noted about these countries, that they have a lot of, you know, great healthcare system.

NAVARRO: I got to tell you, as a Latina, when I say Finland, don't -- Denmark, I mean, like, how can you be happy in that cold?

CAMEROTA: But every year they. Finland wins every single year. And there are all the Scandinavian countries that do win and they said --

URBAN: Yet, no one is moving there.

BARLRO: The U.S. rankings, Hawaii is always at the top of the happiness rankings domestically.


CAMEROTA: You're all just happy. Thank you for that.

NAVARRO: There is water too. The way you can actually go into.

CAMEROTA: Sun and water, exactly. All right. Everyone, stay with us because we need to re-examine college. Is that the only way to get a good job? We're going to look at the numbers that show that may not be true.



CAMEROTA: The U.S. is facing a massive shortage of skilled trade workers like auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, this is according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. These are good paying jobs and we desperately need them. So, why aren't we still training kids in these fields? I'm back with my panel. How come David and I are the only ones who remember shop class.

URBAN: A good show. I made some really -- I made a very lovely fruit bowl in metal class, and I think I made a stool in wood shop.

CAMEROTA: There you go. We need that. And so, I mean, the problem, Josh, is at some point we decided that kids needed to be on the college track. All kids needed to be sort of funneled into the college track, and I don't know if that's working for all kids.

BARRO: No. I mean -- and I think that -- I mean, we started seeing a realization from some employers about that maybe they don't need to require college so much. David was mentioning in the break, Pennsylvania along with a number of other states had an initiative where they're saying so many government jobs require college degrees so we really need to require college degrees.

I mean, similar in the private sector, we went through such a long period, basically 20 years where the economy was on average pretty sluggish. Unemployment was usually over six percent. Employers could make whatever it was they wanted, and they always had employees available to hire. The last few years have not been like that at all. And so, companies as they are desperate to hire are trying to figure out, well, can we be a little more creative about who can we employ in more positions.

You can't do that with a plumber. Some of these positions, these skilled trade jobs you really have to spend years learning a skill. And that's been a problem especially because, you know, sort of another hangover of that old economy that we had where there was always slack in the economy is we decided we needed a really big infrastructure bill that probably would have been really great for the economy circa 2012 when we finally got around to enacting it, we did it at exactly at the time the labor market was at its tightest.

It's gotten really expensive to hire anyone to do anything. And now you have the government competing against private companies, trying to hire people who can build things, has driven up the price of everything. So, yeah, in the long run, we need a lot more people who can do these jobs, especially because, you know, if A.I. ends up automating a lot more knowledge jobs, you will still need plumbers.

CAMEROTA: I'll give you the stats.

URBAN: A.I. is not laying bricks.


NAVARRO: I cannot tell you how happy I am that we are talking about this because when I'm here in New York, everybody lives in apartments and everybody has a super and everyone has this. Okay. I live in Miami where there are raccoons trying to get into my roof, there are iguanas pooping in my pool, you know --

CAMEROTA: You're really selling it.


URBAN: -- first world problems.

NAVARRO: Oh, and there are people getting shot in Miami Beach, so please stop coming to Miami because I need those housing prices to go down. So, I mean, people who actually live in places with houses, old houses, my house is 100 years old, the amount of money, maintenance, the amount of things that go into things that are practical, right? I cannot fix my roof.

CAMEROTA: No. We need these people. This is according to NPR, which is citing this firm called Handshake about employment. The application rate for young people seeking technical jobs like plumbing, building, and electrical work dropped by 49 percent in 2022 compared to just 2020. This is from the online recruiting platform Handshake.

"While pushing for those roles, automotive technicians, equipment installers, respiratory therapist, to name a few, saw on average ten applications each in 2020, they got about five postings in 2022."


CAMEROTA: And, I mean, this is -- we're going in the wrong direction.

ALFORD: I mean, I think two things can be true at the same time. When my mom was growing up in the Bronx, she wanted to go to college and she was told, you know, you should be a secretary. A lot of Puerto Rican, young women, were becoming secretaries. She was funneled down this path and told she couldn't go to college.

So, I think it is important that there was a shift, there was a challenging of yes, there are people who can be college bound from all different types of backgrounds.


But at the same, time there was a stigma attached to certain vocational careers as if they didn't pay a good amount of money, and they do. And as a former teacher, I can tell you not every student wants to go to college, not every student needs to. There are all different types of intelligences. So, I think we have to diversify the way that we look at and also talk about what matters in education.

NAVARRO: I know what I pay my plumber. I know what I play my roofer. I know I pay my, look, just trapper, he was trying to catch the racoon trying to get into my roof. And I can tell you, they earn more than a secretary and probably a lawyer.

URBAN: I blame the Kardashian because everybody that -- everybody wants to be an influencer, right? So, kids growing up there in the room they're sitting on their phones. They want to go be a welder, and go be an apprentice for a long time to learn laying bricks, or they're going to create videos and be famous.

CAMEROTA: If Kim Kardashian became a plumber, we would want to be a plumber. Hey, Kim. So that's just my little tip to you.

URBAN: That's Kim Kardashians. This is generic.

CAMEROTA: Yeah, I know. And all of them should be plumbers. All right, thank you all very much. Stick around, we've got to wish a happy birthday to Bruce Willis. His family was celebrating today and they shared an important message, so we'll show you this video that they put together.



CAMEROTA: Bruce Willis' family sharing this video on his 68th birthday. Willis was recently diagnosed with frontal temporal dementia. Willis' wife, Emma, talking about the pain of dealing with her husband's diagnosis.


EMMA HEMING WILLIS, WIFE OF BRUCE WILLIS: So, today is my husband's birthday I have started the morning by crying. As you can see by my swollen eyes and snotty nose, I just think it's important that you see all sides of this. I always get this message or people always tell me, like, you are so strong. I don't know how you do it. I am not given a choice. I wish I was. But I am also raising two kids in this. So, sometimes in our lives we have to put our big girl panties on and get to it.


CAMEROTA: I'm back with my panel. That's very generous of her to put that out, I think. And very brave of them to show what it really looks like because Bruce Willis is an icon and he is icon of sort of what you were talking about David, that alpha male persona that he's had for so long.

URBAN: (Inaudible) towers.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. And to see him diminished is (inaudible), they don't have to show this.


URBAN: It's tough disease. It's a very tough disease. My father had suffered the last few years of life with dementia. Similarly, it is tough to watch somebody you love kind of fade away like that slowly.

ALFORD: Yeah. It was the same with my grandmother and it was just watching the lack of recognition, that hurts the most, right? Those memories that you share, you walk into the room and you realize that sometimes they are with you and sometimes they are not.

So, what I like is that, again, like we were talking about with depression, mental health, she is opening up about the realness of this. You know, like they could put on a great front. They could talk about, you know, they could make this a P.R. moment, but I think that realness will help so many families in a lot of ways.

NAVARRO: Or they can say nothing at all, right? Who of us would know that Bruce Willis and his family are going through this. First of all, I have the greatest admiration for this family because I can't even, I mean, as the current wife, the ex-wife, Demi Moore, the older kids, the younger kids. This is so civilized. I can't even imagine.

CAMEROTA: They must show how much they all love Bruce Willis.

NAVARRO: Yes. And they love each other and they understand the cause of the family. Look, I think there's so many people around the world going through seeing somebody they love fading a little bit every day. And it is hard, it is painful, it is sad and, you know, my mom died a year and a half ago.

And I actually think in a way it's a privilege to be able to go through it, right? To be able to be with them and give them love and surround them with support as they are going through this. And so, I just -- I am thankful to this family for, again, de-stigmatizing it, and making people feel like they can relate.

CAMEROTA: I totally agree, it is a gift. It is a gift but when you are in it is so hard, and she talks about that. She says, like, I have times of sadness every day grief, every day. And so, when she is going through it, but she is sharing it publicly.

NAVARRO: I'll tell you what helps you got through it, family, friends and talking about it. And just people lifting you up, right, because it's hard. And, listen, if we are lucky, we are going to bury our parents.

BARRO: And I think for a lot of people, this is such a common experience to go through. And for a lot of people, I think it is a very isolating experience. And so, I think that that is one thing that is nice about them doing this so publicly, is that they are showing people something that I think a lot of people know on an intellectual level, but they don't see -- that this is -- that so many people go through this and so many people have to find a way through this and I think it provides an example and it shows people that they are not alone. URBAN: Yeah, I mean, you know, back in the day I was friends with

Dana and Christopher Reeves and Michael J. Fox, so many people who have been so brave about sharing their stories publicly and de- stigmatizing it, and kind of educating people along the way, so.

CAMEROTA: Such a great. He's another great example because, I mean, Superman, you know, that we all get to see that that's all a facade actually. Thank you all very much. Thanks for showing up.

So, law enforcement in multiple cities is preparing in the event that former President Trump is indicted and people heed his calls for protests. We have all of that. Coming up, you heard us.



CAMEROTA: President Trump says he is about to be indicted. Prosecutors say they have not made a final decision yet on criminal charges over that hush money payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels.

But law enforcement officials are getting ready. All NYPD officers are expected to be in uniform and ready to deploy. This is according to an internal memo. This is a source who shared this with CNN. And officials set up security cameras and barricades, as you can see in this video.


This is near the courthouse where the grand jury investigation is taking place. I want to bring in my panel. We have New Jersey's finest, some are with us, Elie. I didn't approve of this.