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CNN Tonight

Tomorrow, Trump To Turn Himself In At Manhattan Courthouse; Trump Hires New Lead Counsel For Manhattan D.A. Case; Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA) Speaks Openly About His Struggle With Depression; John Fetterman Speaks For The First Time About His Mental Health; Trade Professions And College Education. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 03, 2023 - 22:00   ET




ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN TONIGHT.

You're looking live right there at Trump Tower, where the former president will be spending the night. Tomorrow, Donald Trump will appear before the Manhattan criminal court for his arraignment. Trump is the only former president in American history to face criminal charges.

Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg has been investigating Trump's alleged role in paying hush money to adult film star Stormy Daniels. A Trump aide tells CNN that Trump has been meeting with lawyers and political advisers tonight, one of whom describes him as quote, defiant and focused. We will tell you what we've learned will happen tomorrow.

Plus, Senator John Fetterman opening up about his downward spiral that landed him in Walter Reed Medical Center for six weeks being treated for depression. We will discuss why inpatient treatment was necessary for him.

And Mike Rowe is here to talk about why a college degree may not be the best route to success for our kids and what jobs he says are needed over the next decade.

But let's begin with what we know about Donald Trump's arraignment tomorrow. My panel is standing by. We have the world's best law enforcement analyst, John Miller, our old friend, Anthony Scaramucci, the former Trump White House communications director who lasted for 11 days, or one whole Scaramucci, also the man who somehow knows every lawyer involved in this case, Eli Honig, and the smartest woman on earth, okay, person on earth, S.E. Cupp.

But, first, we got CNN's Jason Carroll, who is live for us at Trump Tower. Jason, good evening. Tell us how the NYPD is preparing for this unprecedented event.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Unprecedented indeed. First and foremost, the former president spending the night here at Trump Tower, where we have seen in so many times in the past, a lot of questions about what will happen in terms of security out here tomorrow.

Right now, I can tell you a lot of steel barricades out here on 5th Avenue, the same steel barricades that we've seen downtown at the courthouse. The NYPD has made it very clear, Alisyn that there has been no specific or credible threats, but the NYPD, as you can imagine, is prepared just in case. And by preparedness, we mean that mobile units are on the standby, if necessary. They are prepared to set up roadblocks, if that ends up being something that they need. They have a complement of transit officers at the ready if that should be something that should be needed as well.

When the president leaves Trump Tower here tomorrow and makes his way down to the courthouse will be part of that motorcade. The Secret Service will be there with him. But, once again, you've got the mayor, you've got the police commissioner saying that this is something that they have been prepared for.

And when you think of the NYPD, think of it in this way. This is a department that is really the standard bearer when it comes to security here in the United States. They are accustomed to security challenges. They are accustomed to working in tandem with the Secret Service. So, once again, no specific or credible threats, the NYPD says they are ready. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Okay. Jason, thank you very much. Stand by if you would. John Miller is here to take us through how this is all going to go tomorrow starting with the motorcade to the courthouse.

John, do we know what time this is happening or they're not telling us for a reason?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: We know we're not broadcasting it just for security purposes, but somewhere in the afternoon, Donald Trump is going to leave Trump Tower and take a specific, predetermined route to the district attorney's office, where he's going to surrender on this indictment and be arrested.

CAMEROTA: So, four miles, basically that's the route that they will be taking, four miles, and that is -- they'll have to clear traffic. I mean, how is that going to work?

MILLER: So, that's the straight line as the crow flies. The route is a little different. We're not showing the route again for security reasons. But it's going to be an 11-car motorcade, highway patrol lead, highway patrol tail, but mostly Secret Service cars and staff cars from Trump's team in the motorcade, and it'll take them into the D.A.'s entrance.

CAMEROTA: And then once he's in the courthouse, tell us what happens.

MILLER: So, then he gets booked upstairs in the D.A.'s office, fingerprinted. His prints get sent to Albany enshrined in black and white. He gets a nice id number, which shows he's got an arrest record.


And then he is -- once all that's completed and the paperwork is done, he's taken to a courtroom on the 15th floor where a judge is waiting to arraign him, and that's where he gets to enter a plea, presumably not guilty, where his lawyers have to say, you know, we have the indictment mow, we can see what the charges are, we're going to reserve our right to file motions, he will be released on his own recognizance, and then it's straight back to Mar-a-Lago.

CAMEROTA: But for a minute, he'll be in this hallway where cameras are allowed, and we've seen this hallway before.

MILLER: This is a familiar hallway.

CAMEROTA: This is a familiar hallway.

MILLER: And a familiar walk. But this -- I mean, we saw this with --

CAMEROTA: Steve Bannon.

MILLER: Steve Bannon.

CAMEROTA: And the CFO of Trump Organization, Allen Weisselberg.

MILLER: Weisselberg, Allen Weisselberg. And, you know, they're both handcuffed and they're both in custody.

Donald Trump will not be in handcuff. He's going to be with a D.A.'s investigator who is basically the arresting officer. But the Secret Service detail said as long as we have them under our protection, we would rather not have him handcuffed in case we have to move them quickly or some threat emerges.

CAMEROTA: It makes total sense. Thank you very much for all of that information.

Let's go back to Jason. So, Jason, also Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene says she'll be protesting in New York tomorrow. Is that relevant for police?

CARROLL: Well, absolutely. I mean, this is something that police will be keeping an eye on. That protest expected to happen downtown at the courthouse. Again, in terms of protesters, though, we haven't seen any large scale protests, and so all of this indictment has been going on, has been going has been happening.

Even just being out here, Alisyn, we've seen a couple of people come by every now and then, some shouting in support of the president, some shouting, you know, against the president. But in terms of that protest tomorrow, the mayor has spoken about this, as well as the police chief, the mayor making it very clear that when Marjorie Taylor Greene comes here tomorrow, that she, quote, had best be on her best behavior, also saying that New York is not a place for anyone's misplaced anger. But as I've said before, when it comes to protest, New York City no stranger to protests, whether they,' be large or small, NYPD saying that they are prepared for this. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Jason, thank you very much. Now, let's bring in my panel.

Let's start with Anthony Scaramucci. Anthony, great to see you back.


CAMEROTA: Yes, it's great to have you.

SCARAMUCCI: Hopefully, I'll last longer than 11 days. One Scaramucci, as we call it. No, great to have you.

So, as someone who did work for Donald Trump --

SCARAMUCCI: Yes, I also campaigned for him.

CAMEROTA: Okay, so you know him. What are you expecting for tomorrow?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I think he's probably through the shock of it and I think he's a good showman. And so he'll put on a good show tomorrow. He'll be defiant, like his lawyers are saying, but he'll be polite. He will be courteous to law enforcement. Remember, they're a good part of his base. And I think he will be fairly muted.

I don't think this is a happy day for Mr. Trump. It's not a happy day for America. And so this stuff about it, making him stronger, it's obvious that the polls have gone up a little bit, and perhaps it's making him stronger in the short-term, but I don't think it's a great set of facts room no matter how this permutational outcome happens, it's not a great set of facts. He'll be arrested and have an arrest record and all that other stuff.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: When you say, I'm just curious, Anthony, when you say, he'll put on a good show, for whom, where will that show take place? Because if we're not getting cameras on him in the courtroom, and, you know, is the show -- where is the show?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, it will be for the people that he's in contact with.

CAMEROTA: And I think at Mar-a-Lago, he is scheduled to fly back in Florida.

SCARAMUCCI: Yes. He'll make remarks. You know, tomorrow is a big day for President Trump. He has to -- if he's going to run a great campaign going forward, he has to get the messaging right here, he's got to not be overly emotional. He's got to contains some of the impetuosity and his personality.

CUPP: Well, that's not possible. You know that.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I think it is possible. I think part of -- CUPP: To contain his impetuosity?

SCARAMUCCI: I do. I think part of the impetuosity is contrived by him. And so I think he recognizes the moment, and he's a very good showman. And I do believe he comes tomorrow in a very serious mode playing a certain role. It will be --

CAMEROTA: I didn't even know impetuosity was a word. Let's just start there. That is --

SCARAMUCCI: Pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I didn't George W. Bush through on that. I'm pretty sure that's a legitimate --

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: There is something about for criminal court that can be -- that is humbling for a person. And I've seen plenty of people with --

CUPP: For a regular person?

HONIG: Well, for anybody. I mean, I've seen people who are powerful in their own right, powerful politicians, financiers, mob bosses, drug traffickers, powerful people in their own worlds. When you come into court, that bluster falls away. I mean, there's a leveling effect to sitting at that defendant's table.

CAMEROTA: Do you agree with that, John?

MILLER: I do. I've seen the same thing many times. And, I mean, it depends who he's trying to play. I mean, really interesting today when they said, you know, we all applied to have cameras in the courtroom because it can fit about 70 people, and there's millions of people who want to see this.


There's high public interest. And Trump's lawyer said, well, it could contribute to a circus-like atmosphere, which is, you know, maybe not Donald Trump's first experience with the circus, but as Elie says, this is not a circus where he's the ringmaster. This is where the judges in charge and where, you know, justice is going to be done. And I think he'd rather be on home turf at Mar-a-Lago than putting on a show in court.

HONIG: To be clear, I'm not vouching for what he does after court. I'm just saying, in court, don't expect any dramatic shows.

CUPP: This just feels to me like the four years of the Trump administration when everyone wonder, oh, he's going to pivot now, he's going to pivot now, he's going to pivot now. He does not change. I know this is unprecedented. I think he's going to use this politically and do what he does. I mean, we won't get to see his real demeanor as he's getting booked. We don't know what's happening in his mind, if he's scared, you know or not, but I just don't expect we're going to see suddenly some new Trump that is taking this seriously. I don't think he's taking this seriously. SCARAMUCCI: No, not a new Trump, but he's a great showman. And so he's right now manifesting in his mind how he's going to act tomorrow, and I think there's three things going on, just me personally. I used to know him reasonably well. Number one, he is going to be very kind of law enforcement that's booking him, 100 percent. He have used them as his base and he will go out of his way to be kind to them. Number two --

CUPP: You know what he said, though, about the cops at the Capitol, right?

SCARAMUCCI: I do know what he said about the cops that Capitol, but I also know that he went to the precincts here, you know, during election day to visit some of the police officers, and he views them as his base. The New York City Police Department, I think, one of the precincts or somebody endorsed them in New York in 2020.

CAMEROTA: And when he is one-on-one with somebody who's very different, when he's one-on-one, he is very polite and --

CUPP: You act like I've never been around him one-on-one. I have.

CAMEROTA: Please tell us more. Tell us more about that.

CUPP: You don't want to know. I just -- I can't believe that there is like a Trump for, you know, this real --

SCARAMUCCI: Well, okay. Let's go over -- okay. So, on the 75th anniversary of D Day, he gave a good speech. Whether you like it or not, he gave a good speech. When he had to apologize to the American people after the incident in the bus back in the 2016 campaign --

CAMEROTA: The grab them by the --

SCARAMUCCI: Yes. Okay. He apologized. You go look at that. It's a three or four-minute speech. It was very serious.

CUPP: What are you doing right now? What are we doing right now? We're talking about the times that Trump has acted like a normal person?

SCARAMUCCI: I'm pointing out he has a capacity to do that. I'm not here to defend Donald Trump. I'm here to explain the situation and give you my best surmise how he's going to act there.

CAMEROTA: But, S.E., what's the flipside? I mean, I agree with Anthony that in the small snippets that we see of him surrounded by the detail and everything, how could he act out? What are you expecting otherwise?

CUPP: I don't know. But I certainly know what Trump is capable of. We've seen it. This is someone who's called for violence against this D.A. I mean, I just think it's weird that we're putting him in this --

SCARAMUCCI: So, you think he's going to walk into the courtroom and call for violence because the D.A. -- CUPP: No, I don't. And, in fact, we won't really know. But I just think it's weird that we're painting him as someone who's going to be real sober tomorrow and real nice and hear all the times he's been real nice and normal. That's crazy to me, because we've seen how impetuous and irresponsible he has been in the worst of circumstances.

SCARAMUCCI: Again, you can like it or dislike it. There are many facets of the guy's personality. His personality is literally like a kaleidoscope. So, let me just -- he'll do -- okay, well, let's see if I'm right. You'll have to invite me back, okay? I think --

CUPP: No, we won't know how he's going to be.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, you'll hear from people that are in the courtroom, right? There are going to be people in the courtroom.

MILLER: I mean, this is going to come in different parts, which is, how does he conduct himself in the courtroom. And then the second part is going to be -- you know, and here's a guy who's very indignant about a case where he feels I was shaken down by two people who asked for money and signed agreements to keep it secret, then they turned on me. And now I'm in court after they broke the deal, and he's going to be indignant.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, when he gets back to Mar-a-Lago, John, he will be a different being.

CAMEROTA: That's a different thing. Mar-a-Lago --

SCARAMUCCI: Yes, when he gets back to Mar-a-Lago, he's on home turf.

CAMEROTA: Hold on, guys. Very quickly, Elie, we have to go, but quickly.

HONIG: You can't charm or politic your way out of a criminal case. This is a different arena all together.

CAMEROTA: That's really a great context. Okay, everybody stick around, if you would. We want to talk about Donald Trump's legal team. Wait until you see the history that these guys have with each other and the incredibly tangled web of lawyers. That's next.



CAMEROTA: Okay. A shake up on the Trump legal team today as the former president prepares for his arraignment tomorrow. Trump has hired Todd Blanche to be his lead counsel as he plans his defense against these charges.

All of this just adds to the complicated web of lawyers surrounding Donald Trump. And tonight, his legal team is promising to challenge every potential issue once the indictment is unsealed.

My panel is back with me. Okay, Elie, this is an attorney, Todd Blanche, whom you described as excellent. You worked with him I think for quite a while at the SDNY.

HONIG: Yes, six, seven years, we overlapped.

CAMEROTA: Okay. So, explain this. Why would someone with an excellent attorney with sterling credentials -- no, I'm serious.

HONIG: You're thinking from the lawyers point of view?


HONIG: I thought you're going to ask why would Trump hire someone, because he is a really good lawyer.

CAMEROTA: No, I understand why Donald Trump would hire. But given that many have Donald Trump's lawyers end up in jail or subpoenaed or deposed, why would he take this job?

HONIG: I would surmise, I'm guessing here, that Todd Blanche thinks he can do this job while staying out of trouble. Maybe he was different from everybody else. Maybe he's not. It's a high-profile case, and lawyers do generally have to understand and accept the principle that you take whatever representation is out there. Not that you take everyone but you're not tarred with the sins of your client, right? You're doing your job to represent people, whether whatever they're accused of, there's a certain nobility in that.

And I know people don't like to associate that but we extol public defenders. They defend people who are accused of heinous acts and they're doing their job and it's part of the system.

CAMEROTA: And everyone deserves a lawyer and --

HONIG: Yes, exactly.

SCARAMUCCI: Elie, I have a question.


SCARAMUCCI: If President Trump does not go to jail, let's say he has a plea or something happens or whatever, but it's a success --

CAMEROTA: Or found not guilty.


SCARAMUCCI: Found not guilty, is that not a big win for his --

HONIG: It's a career-defining laurel if you beat this case as Todd Blanche.

I will say this. Todd Blanche is very different. Think what comes to mind when I say Trump attorney, like just think of the kind of --

CUPP: Tacopina.

CAMEROTA: Okay. I was going to go Sidney Powell. HONIG: So let me say Sidney Powell is --

SCARAMUCCI: Only because Michael Avenatti wasn't available, right?

CUPP: That's right.

HONIG: Tacopina is a good example. Joe Tacopina is also a very experienced lawyer here in Manhattan. They both have a lot of experience. They're complete opposites, personality-wise. Todd Blanche is soft spoken. He is not a podium pounder, right, someone who will stand there and wag a finger in the jury's face. He is deliberate. He's careful. He's thoughtful.

Not to say Joe Tacopina is not those things, but demeanor-wise, and so you won't see Todd Blanche, I don't think, on T.V. Let's put it that way.

CUPP: He quit his job --

HONIG: Yes, at a big firm.

CUPP: -- to take this case.

CAMEROTA: So, he had to quit? He couldn't just say this on ice for a while?

HONIG: I don't know. I don't know if this is temporary or not.

SCARAMUCCI: I've been there where I've quit my job for Mr. Trump. And so --

CAMEROTA: And how does that work out?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, it didn't work out well for me, but it might work out for this lawyer. It is hard to know. But what happens to you is you get sucked into the moment and then your ego -- you get this little bit of an ego infection. You're like, okay, I'm going to be defending the former president United States, the first president in history to be indicted. And if I can exonerate him or somehow make this go away from him I think is a big deal.

CUPP: He literally said this was --

SCARAMUCCI: I think it's intoxicating.

CUPP: He literally said this was an opportunity, I couldn't pass up.

MILLER: That's right.

CUPP: You definitely could but he doesn't want to.

MILLER: But it also meant he had to leave Cadwalader, Wickersham and Taft, you know, a white shoe law firm --

CAMEROTA: Very lucrative job.

MILLER: And I'm curious why he had to leave the firm to take this.

HONIG: It may be that the firm didn't want the representation and maybe that the firm had conflicts of interest, and he couldn't have taken representation at the firm. It may be, candidly, Donald Trump is not popular here in Manhattan. You'll be shocked to know. I think the vote count in 2020 was 85 percent for Joe Biden here in Manhattan. And so there may have been some reluctance to take on the representation.

CAMEROTA: John, explain the tangled web that we're talking about, about how many of Donald Trump's lawyers know each other, have represented each other, have fired each other, have suit -- like I think we have a graphic. Let me pull this up for everybody of the flow -- okay, basically, what we needed -- we don't have it at the moment, but we will. We needed a flow chart of how they all know each other.

MILLER: So, there's a lot of crossover. And, you know, it starts with Joe Tacopina, who is Donald Trump's lead counsel right now, although that's now in debate since Todd Blanche just said he's coming on as lead counsel. So, there's two lead counsels, which in a discussion about tensions between lawyers, is demonstrative in and of itself.

But Tacopina once represented Bernard Kerik, the former police commissioner of New York, who then sued Tacopina in a case that was later dismissed for going behind his back and secretly meeting with the U.S. attorney, where Commissioner Kerik who ended up going to jail for four years, said he gave information about me, his own client. Then Kerik hired Tim Parlatore to sue Tacopina and complained to the Bar Association, but Parlatore is now Trump's lawyer in the classified documents case.

And then -- and then who's next on this?

HONIG: Lanny Davis.

CAMEROTA: Is it Bernie -- Lanny Davis.

SCARAMUCCI: It's like the grown up Brady Bunch without women.

CAMEROTA: Yes, Lanny Davis.

MILLER: So, then Lanny Davis was representing Tacopina in that case against Kerik and Parlatore. Of course, Lanny Davis now denies he was Tacopina's lawyer but he is quoted in multiple newspaper articles as Tacopina's lawyer, Lanny Davis. So, maybe it's a different Lanny Davis. You know what I mean? And it's not that common a name.

And then and then it goes on to Michael Cohen, who was a former Trump lawyer, who's now the chief accuser, who is now represented by Lanny Davis. So, if you wonder how there's tension within the Trump lawyer's circle, stop wondering.

CAMEROTA: What a tangled web. That was well done, John. Thank you very much.

All right, everybody, stand by because we need to talk about this. Senator John Fetterman is out of the hospital and he's opening up about his depression. That candid conversation and our own candid conversation about how all this will play out with voters is next.



CAMEROTA: Okay. We're just getting this news into our newsroom. The Manhattan judge for Donald Trump's arraignment tomorrow will allow five news outlets, pool photographers, to take still photos, but networks will not be allowed to broadcast video of Donald Trump's arraignment. So, again, you will see still photos tomorrow of the proceedings but you will not see video inside that courtroom.

Okay. Now, let's turn to Senator John Fetterman, who is speaking about his battle with depression, which led to his hospitalization at Walter Reed for more than a month.


SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): It's like you just won the biggest race in the country and the whole thing about depression is that, objectively, you may have won, but depression can actually convince you that you actually lost, and that's exactly what happened. And that was the start of a downward spiral.

I had stopped leaving my bed. I've stopped eating, dropping weight. I stopped engaging some of the most things that I love in my life.


CAMEROTA: Let's discuss with former Congressman Mondaire Jones. Anthony Scaramucci is back. Dr. Devi Nampiaparampil.


CAMEROTA: Okay, fantastic, of the NYU School of Medicine. S.E. Cupp is back with me.

So, I thought this was such an informative, actually, interview that he did and gave, because people were wondering why he was hospitalized inpatient and he clarified that there was no -- basically he wasn't a suicide risk, he was saying, but you heard him there talk about how he had given up kind of the will to live and wasn't eating.


I mean, let me just play it in his own words about how he felt that he didn't care if he lived or died.


SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): I was at a Democratic retreat and many of my colleagues were coming up to me and asking why aren't you eating?

JANE PAULEY, CBS NEWS HOST: Did you care if you were there or anywhere or nowhere? FETTERMAN: I just showed up where my staff said.

PAULEY: Robotic.

FETTERMAN: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

PAULEY: As it was described to me, you were agnostic about the question of living or not at that time.

FETTERMAN: Yeah. Well, I never had any self-harm, but I was indifferent, though. If the doctor said you have 18 months to live and be like, yeah. Okay, well, that's how things go.


CAMEROTA: So, Dr. Debbie, is that why he was sent for inpatient treatment?

DR. DEVI NAMPIAPARAMPIL, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF REHAB MEDICINE, NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Yeah, I think so. So, it might be semantics. There's something called active suicidal ideation. That's where you're actively coming up with a plan to kill yourself. But then there's passive suicidal ideation, which this might actually fall into that category where you're sort of indifferent whether you die or not.

So, if someone is trying to harm you, you might not actually defend yourself. Because if you think about it, you know, it's very competitive to get a hospital bed, right? If you go to the emergency room, you could be really ill and people will send you home anyway, maybe with nursing, you know, maybe with equipment. Same thing if you have a major surgery.

So, to actually get a hospital bed, you have to be pretty sick and in a really dangerous situation because you're competing with everybody else. So, he had to be in a dangerous situation. And usually it's because you're in danger, you know, either to yourself or you're posing a danger to others. So, in this case, it's that he's in danger.

And then to stay hospitalized for approximately six weeks, that danger had to persist. So, this is actually a treatment refractory depression in some sense. It wasn't something where they could start a medication say okay, everything looks good, the plan looks set, he can be set up to follow up with outpatient psychiatrists. It looked like it was pretty intense, and he already had some structural changes in the brain from his stroke. So, it's probably a major obstacle.

CAMEROTA: S.E. your thoughts.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, having struggled with my own mental health and talked about it, I just want to say how brave this was for him to talk about so honestly and emotionally, especially, this might sound weird, as a big, tough guy. You know, there are barriers to getting mental health and stigmas attached and those barriers are greater in communities of color and their greater for men. And so, what he did was really, really important. Look, depression is a liar, so is anxiety. And it convinces you of things that are not true, that you're not okay, you're not doing well. You're not as good as you should be, et cetera. And I know from my own experience the way he's feeling about his mental health today will evolve.

He might not realize how dire a situation it was until he unpacks that over time because as you say, doctor, you can't just go somewhere for six weeks if you're okay.

CAMEROTA: He used a term that I've never heard before. He said I'm happy to say my depression is in remission. I have never heard of somebody -- you tend to think of it, well, I've been cured. My depression is better. But he said, my depression is in remission, which I just thought was an interesting term. Anthony, how do you think these plays for his career? How do you think this means -- what this means for his voters?

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I think he's a hero on a number of different levels, but the main level for me is that this is an illness. And so, let's say he broke his back and was in the hospital for six weeks. Everybody be like, okay, that's fine. But he had something wrong with his brain that needed to be fixed. And I think we have to drop the stigma in our society of that.

And so, I not only applaud him. I hope that is a beacon, it's literally like a lighthouse to other people that may be feeling that way. Please come in. There are therapies that we can have designed to treat you and to help you get to a place where you feel good about yourself and your family. He's obviously a loving, very good person. He's an American patriot and I think what he did speaks volumes to his leadership skills, so I think he's a hero.

CAMEROTA: That's not what you're hearing on right wing --

SCARAMUCCI: I think that's a mistake by them. They should be reaching out to him in a public health message to all people, and that's a problem with the tribalism in our politics right now. We should be transcending that and talking about this for what it really is, which is a public health and safety messages.

CAMEROTA: Congressman, I mean, they're talking about it as though he's such a liability to Democrats, he's such a liability to the Senate.



CAMEROTA: How do you think it will go when he goes back to Congress? I mean, that's not beanbag, as they say.

MONDAIRE JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You got the same people who say that mass shootings are direct result of the mental health crisis in America and that we need to invest in creating more mental health supports. So, it just goes to show you how genuine they are about that. You know, as someone whose election meant everything to him, to Congress, it is really, I think an important perspective to hear this guy who just won, as he said it, the biggest Senate race in the country, the biggest race in the country.

The race that frankly that gave, Democrats said, that extra seat to give them more comfort in the Senate, say that it wasn't even a big deal to him because of what he was dealing with. I mean --

CAMEROTA: It didn't feel like a win, he said.

JONES: Yeah. It didn't feel like a win. And so, it just -- that perspective is so important that there is, you know, there's a lot more than just winning an election that you've got to -- you've got to work and grapple with what you're dealing with within before you can be of help to anyone else.

SCARAMUCCI: Congressman, the right-wing attitude towards people like Senator Fetterman, did that not help him? I mean, look at the Donald Trump endorsement of Dr. Oz and their approach to him. Don't you think the Pennsylvanians that voted for him galvanized around him?

JONES: You know, I think -- I think it's hard to say. I certainly don't think it harmed him. I remember speaking to a lot of Democrats including my aunt who lives in Philadelphia who was very concerned about the stroke aspect of it. I don't know that the mental health crisis was as clear at the time of the election.

CUPP: It wasn't known.

CAMEROTA: It wasn't.

SCARAMUCC: No, no, but I just meant all of the nonsense --

JONES: But I think this humanizes him.

CAMEROTA: The health stuff.

SCARAMUCCI: I'm just saying the health stuff, the stroke, the misspeaking. I think the Pennsylvanians galvanized around him as a result of --

CUPP: All I know is, calling someone struggling with mental health a liability, no matter -- and no matter what scenario or situation is exactly how you keep these conversations silenced and stigmatized. It's the opposite of the way we should be talking about --

CAMEROTA: I'm even cleaning it up. I'm cleaning up what they're saying.

CUPP: Oh, I know, they're ghouls. I've seen it. I've seen it.

SCARAMUCCI: Yeah. It's all the -- it's all the MAGA nonsense.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Very quickly now. NAMPIAPARAMPIL: In a job situation -- in a job situation we usually look at if somebody is disabled and if it, they can cover for their job with reasonable accommodations. So, in this case, they should really look at what his deficits are and whether those can be accounted for with reasonable accommodation. So, in this case, we don't have enough information about what the deficits actually are.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. We'll see. I mean, obviously he's home now. He's out of the hospital and he says he's heading back to Congress. Thank you all very much for that conversation. Okay. Is college worth it? That's a question for Mike Rowe, next.



CAMEROTA: President Biden touting his administration's efforts to create more manufacturing jobs in the U.S during a speech in Minnesota earlier today. Biden making it clear that despite the changing economy, all Americans should have a chance to succeed.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERUCA: You feel left out, left behind and the economy is rapidly changing. I get it, I get it. But hear me well, we're going to leave no one behind. We're going to make sure all-American workers with college degrees, without college degrees are prepared to compete with anyone in the world in the next -- remainder of the century.


CAMEROTA: Even with President Biden's push to prepare Americans for changing jobs, some industries like plumbing, building, and electrical work are struggling to find workers. According to the online recruiting platform Handshake, the application rate for young people seeking those technical jobs dropped by almost 50 percent last year compared to 2020. Postings for jobs such as automotive technicians and equipment installers saw on average 10 applications each in 2020 compared to about five per posting in 2022.

Joining me now, someone who knows a lot about all of this and has been talking about it for years, Mike Rowe, TV host and CEO of Mike Rowe Works Foundation. Mike, great to see you.

MIKE ROWE, TV HOST & CEO, MIKEROWEWORKS FOUNDATION: It's been a while, Alisyn. Great to see you.

CAMEROTA: It's been too long. So, I'm really looking forward to talking to tonight. So, Mike, look, would you say that the tide has for the past decade kind of turned towards college prep is the way to go, that's the message that kids in high school have gotten. You know, we've done away with shop class and that it's been to our detriment.

ROWE: I'd say in general; I agree with that. It's tough. It's kind of like looking at an electrocardiogram, right. It's up over here, it's down over here, and then it jumps back in this area, and the study you just cited is interesting. I don't doubt it. But there are some others that indicate of really just the opposite. The Wall Street Journal just ran a piece that talked about college enrollments being down for the first time in ages and trade schools going up.

So, I think it kind of depends on where you want to look but in a very general way, you hit the nail on the head. When we took shop class out of high school 40, 50 years ago, we started to send a series of messages that to the president's point wound up causing a lot of people to feel left behind.

And it's not just a vocational question. It's what happens when you promote one form of education as the best path or the most people and use all the other alternative forms, apprenticeships and trade schools and so forth as some kind of a vocational consolation prize.

Stigmas and stereotypes and myths and misperceptions begin to form around those kinds of educations and around those kinds of jobs, and it just becomes a vicious cycle. And the next thing you know, we're where we are, 11 million open jobs, most of which don't require four- year degree and $1.7 trillion in student loans on the books.


It's just -- it's not just a mismatch of skills. It's a skill gap, but it's also a will gap and it's a P.R. problem. It's a big conversation.

CAMEROTA: And so, as you say, since some of those working-class folks have felt left behind, maybe the tables are turning. I mean, I look at these statistics. This is the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the outlook for the next 10 years of the jobs that will be growing. Look at this, electricians, growth by 7 percent, construction equipment operators, 5 percent, construction laborers and helper's 4 percent. Now that's basically the average of growth of all jobs, but still, they're not going away. Carpenters now 2 percent.

Only building inspectors are going down by 4 percent. I don't know why that is, but plumbers, pipefitters, steamfitters 2 percent growth. So, they're keeping up with the rest of the economy and maybe it's time to reconsider all of this.

ROWE: Look, if there was a silver lining to the lockdowns and I think there were probably a few, the country got a tap on the shoulder, right, and a reminder of what essential work was. You know, I work on T.V. shows that make a big deal about that. But all of a sudden, right, when you see the elect -- it's not just about oh, this company needs more electricians where these people could do better if they learn to trade.

It suddenly became, well, how long do you want to wait for the electrician to come to your home or the plumber, right? Or the welder or the HVAC guy. And so, people began to suddenly realize, hold on, it's not just the employer over here in the employee over there were labor and capital or union or nonunion. We're all kind of in this together. And a healthy workforce is a workforce that values the skill trades. I'll say too, you know, the problem with those studies is that they do

reflect a macro issue, but the opportunities that are buried in those facts, that's what's interesting. For the individual right now, who wants to learn a trade, there are people falling over themselves to help pay for that including me. My foundation gives away a couple million bucks a year in work ethics scholarships specifically for these kinds of jobs.

We're overrun this year. It's just anecdotal, Alisyn, but I'm telling you, I've been doing this for 15 years, and this year we've seen more applications in a relatively short period of time that I've ever seen before. And I think it's because the country is beginning to wake up to the idea that maybe the definition, we've given to a good job has been historically a bit too limiting.

CAMEROTA: And in fact, you put together a PSA about that scholarship program. So, let's take a look at it.


ROWE: Some people say there's no opportunity for women in the trades. Those people never met Chloe Hudson.

You entered a field that historically has been dominated by men, welding

CHLOE HUDSON, MIKEROWEWORKS FOUNDATION, SCHOLARSHIP RECIPIENT: My dad, he really instilled in me that there is absolutely nothing that I'm incapable of. The women in the 40s and 50s they blazed that trail and they did it with a red lipstick. I'm not a female welder. I'm not a weld her. I'm not a trades woman. I'm just a welder. That's what I do for a living and I love it.

ROWE: Apply for a work ethic scholarship today at


CAMEROTA: Very cool, Mike. So, what does everybody need to know about this?

ROWE: You need to know that Chloe Hudson's for real. She's one of 1,500 people we have assisted over the years. You need to know that she's making a healthy six figure salary, doing something that she absolutely loves. You need to know she was this close to signing on the dotted line to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars to become a plastic surgeon and decided that there was another way to go.

There's always another way to go and the moral of the story is pick the way that makes the most sense for you, but make sure you get an honest look at all of the options that are out there. We've got to get our thumb off the scale and we have to stop promoting one category of jobs at the expense of all the others.

CAMEROTA: Mike, it's always great to check in with you. Thanks so much for your time tonight.

ROWE: Any time and I really appreciate you having me on. It means a lot.

CAMEROTA: All right. So, what do you think? Is college worth it? We're going to do a lightning round with our panel and find out what they say next.



CAMEROTA: Okay. So, is four-year college worth it? My panel is back. I don't know why I'm going to ask all of you ivy league elites this question. But you all went to very fancy schools so you're all going to say yes, college is worth it, right, congressman?

JONES: Absolutely it is.

CAMEROTA: But what about -- what about what Mike Rowe was just telling us, that there's this deficit of, you know, people -- kids who know how to do these technical jobs, and it's to the detriment of the country?

JONES: Well, look, many people who don't go to college have jobs like electrician, plumber, et cetera that actually make more than many of my friends who graduated college, you know, but that doesn't mean that like college that there's no role for college in our society.

CAMEROTA: No, no, it's not that, but it's just that is it worth it? But of course, you're going to say yes too.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, on the break I said -- I said Jews and Italians, you said we have to go, our mothers will kill us, right? You did say that, but I think he's making a great point. And what is the great point is that we don't have to have a stigma if you didn't go to college and that there are technical skills that are needed in the society. You can have a very robust, very profitable life if you don't go.

CAMEROTA: Okay. You've only got two seconds, go ahead.

SCARAMUCCI: But if I didn't go, I would have been killed by my mom.

CUPP: Listen, I think it depends.


If you want to be an architect or an engineer, you got to go to college. But what I think needs to change is the way we're doing college because life has changed so dramatically in the past 50 years with technology and college has not. And so, I really think we need to sort of --

CAMEROTA: Other than getting more expensive. In two seconds.

CUPP: Yeah.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. It's all changed. It's a whole different ballgame. It's way more expensive now. State schools are great. Community schools are great. Vo-tech schools are great. It's not one size fits all.

JONES: But we need to lower the cost of attending --

CAMEROTA: All colleges.

JONES: All colleges and universities.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.


CAMEROTA: Okay. Thank you all. All right, tomorrow, Donald Trump will turn himself in to authorities. He and his team are huddling in Trump Tower tonight. My new panel is coming in to talk about all of this. You heard me, Scaramucci, a new panel is coming in now. Look at them. Here they are right there.