Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Tonight

21-Year-Old Guardsman Arrested In Pentagon Documents Leak Case; A.I. Creates Podcast Between Fake Joe Rogan And Fake Donald Trump; Hundreds Of Thousands Protest Against Raising Retirement Age In France; Protest In France Over Age Retirement; "Rocky" VHS Tape Auctioned For $27,500; Beer Sales In MLB Games Extended. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 13, 2023 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:01]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: But if she can't fulfill her duties on the judiciary committee, she's temporarily stepping aside from that, do you have confidence that she can continue to fulfill her constitutional duties as the senator from California?

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Well, I'm hopeful that you can. Again, I want to see what happens in the next month or so. You give her that time to be able to come back. But if she can't come back month after month after month with this close Senate, that's not just going to hurt California, it's going to be an issue for the country. So, we take her at her word, she's coming back. Let's see what that date is and what they tell Senator Schumer. But for now, she really made the right decision to step aside from the committee.

As a member of the committee, I know we have a number of judges and we I have bills legislation that we have to what we call mark up and get through the committee.

COLLINS: All right. Senator Amy Klobuchar, we're out of time tonight, but thank you for your time tonight. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you to all of you. CNN TONIGHT with Alisyn Camerota starts right now. Hi, Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Kaitlan. Thanks so much.

Good evening, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN TONIGHT.

The National Guard Airman arrested today for the FBI -- for that alleged leak of highly classified Pentagon documents was just 21 years old. His name is Jack Teixeira and he's described in The Washington Post as a lonely but charismatic gun enthusiast who was allegedly the leader of a chat room on Discord. That's a social media platform popular with gamers. We'll have more details on this in a moment. But does this story give us some insight into what's going on with young men who spend a lot of time online?

Plus, you know, we ring the artificial intelligence alarm on this show often. Well, the latest frontier is creating fake versions of famous people, like this completely fake Joe Rogan interviewing a completely fake Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, HOST, THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE: How you doing, Mr. President?

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Joe, it's great to be here. I'm doing fantastic, just fantastic. The energy in this room is tremendous.

ROGAN: That's great to hear. So, Mr. President, I got to ask you are you a fan of the UFC?

TRUMP: Joe, let me tell you, I love the UFC. It's one of the most exciting sports out there. It's not for everyone, but if you're a fan, there's nothing like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Okay. We'll play more of that. And Mike Rowe is here tonight to share his deepest, darkest fear about A.I.

And the raging controversy over beer and baseball, as the games get shorter, some teams are selling beer later. And tonight, one major leaguer is not happy about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT STRAHM, PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES PITCHER: Now, you're putting our fans and our family at risk driving home with people who have just drank beers 22 minutes ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: We'll get into all of that.

But let's bring in tonight's panel. We have with us Emma Goldberg, star reporter of The New York Times, we also have our pal and T.V. star Mike Rowe, star of The Daily Show Jordan Klepper, and star of CNN, Shimon Prokupecz. Great to see all of you.

Okay. Jordan, can we start with this -- first, let's let me just show the arrest today, the dramatic arrest of this 21-year-old who had access somehow to all of these classified documents and the FBI descended upon his home. He was clearly surprised. He's not dressed for an arrest like this. And, you know, you can see this show of force. And I just wonder. Do you see this as an anomaly or do you see this as saying something bigger about a 21-year-old guy who's on Discord online talking to fellow, you know, gun enthusiasts and sharing all of these secrets?

JORDAN KLEPPER, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY SHOW: Yes. I mean, it's harrowing images. It's hard, you know, as information is still coming in, I don't want to weigh into heavily about who this man is. I do think, though -- I get a chance to talk to a lot of people out there and I see young men struggling in this country. They're not doing great in school, not doing great with jobs. And when I talked to people at rallies I go to, I see this whole this -- this space that is needed for both community and for meaning.

And so hearing stories about people who struggle during the pandemic, finding communities online, perhaps looking for that meaning, looking for that sense of purpose and finding that in wayward places. It hurts when you're fed grievance, and then awash in misinformation. And so it feels like if those were part of the part of the soup that this came out of, it makes sense.

CAMEROTA: Do you have a sense of why young men are struggling?

KLEPPER: Well, I mean, I think it's tough out there right now. I think there's a lot of loneliness. COVID didn't help any of that. They're not getting good, clean information. You can escape. I think I know what it's like to be a teenage boy. I remember it. I wasn't very good at it, to be quite honest with you. If I had an escape in my basement where I could have somebody tell me that I'm good at something, that I belonged to something else, and then we can seek out information that could make my worldview seemed like the ultimate worldview, I would lack curiosity to expand that worldview.

I would double down on things I already thought I felt and I'd try to impress those closest around me. And I see that in our kids these days, and I think if you don't have a culture that makes an effort to try to support those kids, and instead you have a culture that might prey on those vulnerabilities and might flood them again with this misinformation, that's a tough time to make sense of the world.

[22:05:07]

CAMEROTA: You know, I think that you're hitting on something. And, Shimon --

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: 100 percent. I mean, yes.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Because the people who described him, he not only had a purpose, he was the leader of this group. And they describe him as charismatic. Let me just play for you one member who wanted to be anonymous but talked about how, you know, they saw him as their sort of fearless leader. So, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, there's some anti-government sentiment, but that's not unlike most right wingers in the modern day and age. O.G. was not hostile to the U.S. government, whoever he had disagreed with several occasions, such as Waco and Ruby Ridge and thought that the government is overreaching in several aspects.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So, they refer to him as O.G. That was his name online.

PROKUPECZ: He was the leader. I mean, I think Jordan hit a 100 percent. He was the leader of this group. It gave him a purpose. He puts this group together around the pandemic, and then sometime after that is to get them more interested in him, to get him more interested in what he has to say, he starts sharing this information, according to his friends, or now his former friends. And he's sharing this information.

And so this group is formed on Discord and the name of it is, I think, we just had it up on the screen. It's called Thug -- I have it in my notes.

CAMEROTA: Oh, yes, I know.

PROKUPECZ: It's Thug Shaker Cental is the name of this group. And he forms this group, he's running it, he's the leader, it's about 20 to 30 members. And it's all about video games at first, right? But there's a love of guns. There's -- they're talking about racial issues, his anti-government views. And so this all starts around the pandemic, and he starts feeding them information.

So, what he's doing is he's sitting in this room, perhaps on the military base, where he has access to all of these classified intelligence bulletins and information about the wars and what the military is doing, and he's sharing all this information. And they're like, wow, how cool is this?

But then, at some point, they're like, we don't want to know about this. We don't want to -- and he's gets upset that they're not interested. And so he kind of gets tired of writing all this down, so he starts taking photos of the information. And then from there, it all starts to unravel. And what he thought he was just sharing with a small, tight knit group of friends, his followers, the people in that group started realizing what they had and they started sharing it outside of that group, and that's how all of this starts to unravel.

CAMEROTA: Mike, how do you see it?

MIKE ROWE, CEO, MIKEROWEWORKS FOUNDATION: I'm with Jordan. You know, it's the meaning thing. You know, I think, look he did a very bad thing. He shared classified documents. Go to jail, go directly to jail. You're not going to pass-go, you screwed up. But the fact that he was 21, the fact that he liked guns, the fact that all these other things, I don't find them personally to be a dispositive.

You know, I spent a few weeks not long ago on a on a nuclear aircraft carrier and I got to hang out on the bridge. And I was talking to the captain who is younger than me who went around the room and introduced me to the guy in charge of the nuclear engines who was 22. And the woman in charge of the entire mess, right, there was like 5,000 people, that ship was filled with 21-year-old gun enthusiasts, right?

So, I'd just be real careful about painting with a broad brush. The only thing that I would take from this that I'm comfortable saying globally is the meaning thing. The young men today feel untethered and unmoored and older men, I'm afraid, aren't so different. Nick Eberstadt has a great book where he talks about. It's called men without work. 7.2 million able bodied men in the prime of their life not only not working but affirmatively not looking for work. We have never seen that in this country outside of war. Never in peace time have we seen this going on.

So, I'm not saying there is something about the screen, there's something about the search for meeting but there's not much that I can say about a 21-year-old gun enthusiasts.

CAMEROTA: Yes. And I don't mean to suggest that because he's gun enthusiast, he became a national security risk. I mean, that this is what bonded them on Discord. This is what -- why these guys came together. They like military equipment. They like gun. I saw one report where they liked God and then I also saw some reports where it said that they engaged in racist memes, so whatever. I'm just telling you what they found in their connection, not that any of that means you would steal nuclear secrets, whatever national secrets.

ROWE: of course. But, look, you put it on the screen. And people look at the screen. And people's brains, they'll find what you tell them to look for, and they'll start to connect the dots.

Go back two weeks. Look at Nashville, the transgender shooting. Well, wait a second, we don't want to connect any dots there. I don't think we should, right?

[22:10:01]

But it's interesting what we put on the screen and it's interesting what we hang on to.

EMMA GOLDBERG, BUSINESS REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I do want to say. I mean, I think we do need to think about the platform. I mean, discord is a platform that's been called like a cousin of 4chan, which is a hotbed of conspiracy theories, of QAnon. And this isn't an isolated incident. Discord was connected to the shooter who went into a grocery store in Buffalo and killed ten people. It was connected to the Unite the Right rally. So, this is a platform that has been a hotbed of conspiracy theories, of racist memes. And still with the platform is relying a lot on to flag problematic content is just individual users to a large extent. So, that's, you know, I think another troubling issue that we need to examine here.

CAMEROTA: Yes. It is interesting that his friends on there are now speaking out because they're, I guess troubled.

PROKUPECZ: Perhaps they're troubled. Perhaps they didn't realize how bad this was. And maybe somehow they're trying to save themselves. And not that they have any kind of issue to worry about, but certainly there is that. I'm sure some of them are worried about it.

But the thing about this is that, look, yes, it's a huge embarrassment for this country, because, I mean, where else does this happen, right? What other countries do we see this? And we've had so many instances of this. But what's different about this guy is that when you look at Snowden and you look at Chelsea Manning, you know, they had a purpose in their mind for why they were doing it. They were doing it because they wanted to wrong or right, they were doing for some kind of social justice.

This guy is just doing it to be cool. You know, he's got these friends sitting around. And that's what's kind of a little confusing. And I think that, to your point about what is going on in his head and others, that's what makes this so strange.

CAMEROTA: Yes, except that, as these guys have said, it makes perfect sense if you're a 21-year-old guy who wants to impress your posse that, you know, I mean, not that not that everybody commits crimes, but you can understand the impulse of wanting to impress them.

KLEPPER: And I think there is something to, you know, the conspiratorial mindset. I'm not saying that was this man's mindset, but I do know there's something spent some time in that world. There's something special when you feel you know a secret somebody else doesn't know.

ROWE: That is a fact, man.

KLEPPER: That is exciting.

ROWE: One other quick thing too. We're all I think reasonable people on international T.V. We're not going to say anything other than this is a very bad thing that happened. But out in the world, over a beer, people sit down and they start talking about Snowden or maybe Chelsea Manning or maybe Jeffrey Wigand, the insider, right, with big tobacco, where Erin Brockovich, right?

So, what is a whistleblower? What is the leaker, you know? Are they patriot? Are they a traitor, right? The conversations I think that I bet will go on after this segment are going to be let me lick my finger and stick it in the air and see which way the wind is blowing, and then I'll decide how to feel about the sky.

PROKUPECZ: Yes. Well, some people, talking to friends today, watching the video of him being arrested, people actually feel bad for him. You know, I had a couple of friends who said to me, I actually feel bad for him, because there's also video that of him sitting in his yard before the -- like the news helicopters and the reporters had already been at the home just as the FBI was arriving, maybe even before, and there's video of him just sitting in his yard looking over some paper.

CAMEROTA: But doesn't it also just raises the question of why does the 21-year-old who was, you know, by all accounts, like an I.T. guy --

PROKUPECZ: He's a tech wiz. He really was.

CAMEROTA: Okay, tech wiz. But still why is he able to have access to our national --

PROKUPECZ: So, he's a systems engineer, he's making sure those systems on those computers that they're using to transmit this information. This is a base that deals with drones overseas. This is a base that deals with cybersecurity and all kinds of spying, right, and intelligence work. He runs those systems. And so he has to have access to this information.

The question is, how is he vetted, of course, and what is going on at the Pentagon? And this is really bad for them, for the Pentagon. This is really, really bad.

CAMEROTA: All right. Friends, thank you very much, Shimon, you'll be back in our next hour along with other reporters to give us tomorrow's news tonight, okay?

And coming up next, more freaky artificial intelligence fakes that sound very real, and Mike Rowe shares his deepest fear.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:15:00]

CAMEROTA: Now for our latest look into artificial intelligence, we bring you Joe Rogan, but not the real Joe Rogan, the fake A.I. Joe Rogan. You're about to hear a podcast where all the dialogue was created by ChatGPT. This episode is a fake interview with fake Joe Rogan interviewing an A.I.-generated fake Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGAN: How you doing, Mr. President?

TRUMP: Joe, it's great to be here. I'm doing fantastic, just fantastic. The energy in this room is tremendous.

ROGAN: That's great to hear. So, Mr. President, I got to ask you are you a fan of the UFC?

TRUMP: Joe, let me tell you. I love the UFC. It's one of the most exciting sports out there. It's not for everyone, but if you're a fan, there's nothing like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Again, that was entirely fake. Joe Rogan responded to this A.I.-generated podcast, saying, quote, this is going to get very slippery, kids.

I'm back with my panel and joining us is Mosheh Oinounou, host of the Mo News Podcast. Great to have you here.

MOSHEH OINOUNOU, HOST, MO NEWS: Great to be here.

CAMEROTA: Okay. So, Mike, this really worries you?

ROWE: Oh, yes.

CAMEROTA: Why?

ROWE: Look, I mean, in general, you know, I've read about The Luddite Rebellion and I know about the fear people have of new tech and I know what happened with the Gutenberg Printing Press and how Henry VIII tried to burn them all to stop, you know? So, in general, I'm not worried about big tech. This worries me to death. Deepfakes worry me. The ability to take fraud to a whole new level is just shocking.

CAMEROTA: And somebody has already taken liberties with your likeness.

ROWE: Not even with this crazy tool, but five years ago, my dad sent me a note asking me about my problems in the boudoir.

CAMEROTA: You were in a fake ad -- well, a real ad, but a fake you, and I believe we have it, was in an ad about erectile dysfunction.

ROWE: So, that's my picture. That's really me. But it's not just an ad. It's an interview with me that I didn't do.

[22:20:00]

Somebody just made up and it sounds like me talking very candidly about my inability and my frustration is shooting pool with a broke, right? I mean, it's ridiculous. And they get into all these details and some of its kind of funny. But, overall, it's deeply humiliated. I mean, your dad calls you at home to ask you questions like that.

CAMEROTA: Like how you're doing with that?

ROWE: So, I take a deep dive and I find the thing and trying to get it removed from the internet. I mean, it's truly like a game of whack- a-mole, if you'll pardon the pun, right? I mean, it's just pops up everywhere and you knock it down.

So, look, that's six years ago. This bold new world, if you -- the fraud that's happening online right now, identity theft in and of itself, what is this going to do to that? It's going to be an accelerant, I think, unlike anything we've ever seen. And Rogan is right, it's not going to get slippery. It's slippery now.

CAMEROTA: Mosheh, how are we ever going to know what's real?

OINOUNOU: That's the problem, right? We already have a problem with truth in this country and in this world, and this is only going to reinforce that, right? Like we, as journalists, will find clips of, you know, politicians saying something. Now they can be like, that's A.I., no way that was me. So, there are real ramifications.

You know, the Russia/China summit that happened recently in Moscow, among the things discussed between Xi Jinping and Putin was A.I., how do we lead the world in A.I. And you know now, I think here in the U.S., the Biden administration has said the Commerce Department is opening it up for comments for the next 60 days. All of us can write into the Commerce Department right now for our thoughts on A.I. That's where we're at.

The Italians, meanwhile, a couple weeks ago, said we're pausing ChatGPT in the country. It is banned until you fix some stuff. The Italians are far ahead of us in terms of dealing with this. So, there are real things happening and then the tech companies are like, we're not stopping. The Microsoft CEO this week said, full speed ahead on ChatGPT. Why would we stop? If you want to regulate us, regulate us? So, it falls on the government, like many things, to put a pause on this, potentially.

CAMEROTA: Jordan, your likeness is out there. Have you ever been the subject of a humiliating ad campaign?

KLEPPER: Oh boy, I would take it gladly. Are you kidding, the residuals on something like that? Also, I'm crestfallen to know that erectile dysfunction interview isn't true. I mean, maybe there's a world where like you speaking candidly about this kind of thing is the Mike Rowe that we want, that maybe the technology is projecting a future us, the kind of person we could become if we become open with ourselves and willing to share with other people are deficiencies, our inadequacies, you know, theoretic, too slow.

ROWE: Too soon. Simply too soon.

KLEPPER: I think it's going to take time for us to become comfortable with the new reality that we're about to be born into.

CAMEROTA: Thank you for all that, very touching. Emma, have you been the subject of an embarrassing advertisement?

GOLDBERG: Never, and I don't want to tempt fate. But I do think it's -- I mean, it's really scary, uncharted terrain. One of my colleagues at The Times recently published a full transcript of a chat he had with Bing's A.I. chatbot, who he asked to tap into its shadow self and it suddenly started trying to break up his marriage and profess some really violent fantasy.

CAMEROTA: Yes, we interviewed him. It was so creepy. The thing took on a life of its own and was like, you love me more than your wife, don't you? Leave her. What was that?

GOLDBERG: And it was like a snap, like it was like, oh, no, don't ask me to do it. And then all of a sudden it was like, never mind, okay, like we're going there. And I think that just shows like we're already there. Like, yes, we need regulation, but I think we also need to teach individual people how to recognize when they're dealing with, you know, fake material, fake interviews with Mike.

CAMEROTA: But I don't know how we're ever going to teach people to do that.

ROWE: It's not just me. Hey, silver lining, I think she's right. If you believe as I do that the crisis of credibility with our institutions has to get a little worse before it gets better. If you believe that the individual has to embrace a new level of skepticism and thought, then this will be a wakeup call. Because the default is going to become not -- well, of course, they're telling me the truth, why would they lie? The default is going to become, well, of course, they're lying. Why would they tell me the truth?

CAMEROTA: Except that I feel like the people who need it the most are the most susceptible, like the most easily duped. ROWE: Of course.

CAMEROTA: So, they will believe this without skepticism.

ROWE: I have faith that some, unfortunately, will never come around but many, many will. We still have an opportunity, I think, to challenge the fat part of the bat in this country. Most people should look at everything and anything with a grain of salt, right? They should be more skeptical, I believe.

CAMEROTA: Look, that Joe Rogan thing that we just played with Donald Trump, that sounded sort of robotic. I mean, that one, you could be like something is not right about that, but they're going to get better. They're going to be better next week. Next week, they'll be better.

ROWE: And what's it going to do to porn? Oh my God.

CAMEROTA: Oh, yes, thank you for bringing that up?

ROWE: What is it going to do?

CAMEROTA: I'll tell you what it's going to do, because it's already doing it, they're taking famous people. You are next. You are next. They're taking famous people and putting famous people into pornographic videos and situations.

[22:25:03]

KLEPPER: That is what technology is for. This is -- of course, that's what we're doing.

OINOUNOU: This is something you guys have been doing, working really hard on The Daily Show for years, the technology is making it --

KLEPPER: Are you kidding? When I was 13, I was visualizing a reality where I was seeing famous people in pornographic images.

CAMEROTA: And now here it is.

KLEPPER: And now we're finally here. Hurrah, America, greatest country on the planet.

ROWE: People are going to fall in love. They're going to fall in love with a cipher, open avatar.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.

ROWE: They already did was the movie, her or she?

CAMEROTA: Yes, that's -- we're there.

ROWE: Who knows anymore, really.

KLEPPER: And that guy turned into the Joker, so it can get dark quick. CAMEROTA: The future is now, it's happening. All right, folks, thank you for all of that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets in France today to protest their government's plan to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64. In Paris alone, more than 40,000 people protested, some, as you can see, clashing with police officers, smoke bombs, projectiles, tear gas were all used there and fired in.

[22:30:00]

My panel is back with me. Emma, people really don't want to work two more years.

GOLDBERG: Not in France. In America, they are like, bring it on. I mean, I do think there's a lot of reasons why what's going think there is so distinct to France.

CAMEROTA: Why?

GOLDBERG: One being the fact that they do have a very different relationship with work life balance than Americans do. I mean, all you have to do is send an e-mail to a European person in August to know that like they really take vacations seriously, but I also think that the prospect of raising the retirement age in America is a very different ball game.

Because the elder the elder population is, to a large extent, lower income, lesser educated, doesn't have the health and ability or life expectancy to work as long as, you know, in some other countries. So, the prospect of raising the retirement age in order to ensure that people can access all those benefits, it doesn't necessarily gain out politically or economically.

CAMEROTA: Here are some stats from Gallup for us. In the U.S., the average retirement age is 61. Limited social security benefits begin at 62. Life expectancy is 76. Mike, what's the right age to retire at?

ROWE: I mean, retire from what? I mean, I can't -- I like what I do. I work every day. My work life balance is a joke, but I -- but I really do love what I do. And my foundation, you know, we have the scholarship program and we call them work ethics scholarships because I think it's an important part of the conversation. I don't care about France. I don't know what to say, 62, 64. That's out of my lane.

But here, you know, we've got scholarships for academic achievement, for athletic achievement, scholastic, artistic. You know, the idea of rewarding work ethic and talking about it as a thing you can consciously choose, to show up early, to stay late, to do all that Horatio Alger stuff and nobody wants to hear about anymore, but it's still a really important part.

I think that goes back to the first segment too. Why is that kid sitting there looking for meeting? You know? What does his desk look like at the end of the day? You know, the people that I work with by and large they know how they're doing all day long. You get a dirty job, you get constant feedback, right? Constant feedback and --

CAMEROTA: Because you see the product of what you're doing. You see the results.

ROWE: You see progress, right? And so, not to go on a rant about it, but good grief. I mean, that's -- that's the problem, 62 to 64? I'm sorry, I think in this country right now the biggest issue is the war that we have declared collectively on work and the way we've turned it into the proximate cause of every single ailment that we have, and I think it's silly.

GOLDBERG: Well, I was just going to add. I do think that exactly what you're talking about. I think that the kind of disaffection and dissatisfaction with labor right now is feeding into this. It's -- we're seeing that in the U.S. with the great resignation, with you know, all sorts of trends in which people are rejecting labor conditions that they don't want or like, and I think we're seeing that in France --

ROWE: Well, you read about the right quiet quitting and working from home and what is it, mail it in Monday's now or whatever it is.

GOLDBERG: I never heard that before.

ROWE: It's kind --

(CROSSTALK)

OINOUNOU: It's trending on TikTok.

ROWE: Yeah.

OINOUNOU: But the problem we have is that our pension system, social security, is based on young workers, right? That's the entire calculation. The problem they have in France, it's 1.7 young workers per retiree. In the U.S. we're 3 to 1 right now. So, like, we're great compared to them.

And so, they're running out of money for their pensioners. And by the way, when you're in France, a quarter of your life you spent in retirement. The average retiree in France, richer than the average worker. So that's why retirement is such a big deal there.

CAMEROTA: It's fascinating.

KLEPPER: I'm focused on retirement. I think -- I've been working hard so I can retire and stop working as fast as humanly possible.

CAMEROTA: What is the average age of retirement for a comedian?

KLEPPER: For a comedian? You quit your improv class at 27. That's what -- that's what they tend to do. And I get it. I agree with Mike and I understand that. I couldn't get all the way through Horatio Alger, but I do think -- I do think to me a productive society. We should be working towards a four-day work week. We should be working towards working less.

It's amazing that we're working as many hours as we did 80 years ago. What is progress for if you can't have margaritas at 4:00. That to me is the evolution we should be working for, and I do think there is something -- I think it's an interesting conversation around the first segment and that sense of meeting.

And I do think work -- work gives you a sense of pride in what you do, but I think you have a younger generation that has also been sold larger institutional lies and they're finding themselves upset by not being as fulfilled in some of the jobs that they have, or in some of the missions that they've been given.

And so, I do think it's a delicate balance, but I wish we could have an open conversation in this country about how work is something you can do to spend more time with the things and the people that you love. And sometimes ambition is seen as just a virtue, as opposed to Google's excuse for you not to feel bad, not being home with your toddler.

CAMEROTA: What do you think, Mike?

[22:34:57]

ROWE: Look --

KLEPPER: Don't give me one of these, Mike.

ROWE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was your age --

KLEPPER: There we go.

ROWE: No, look, I mean again, I don't think -- I think the danger is singing from the book of platitudes. I think what you say makes a lot of sense for a bunch of people, and I think it's exactly what another bunch of people really don't need to hear. It's like telling -- it's like, well, we did it. We told an entire generation that the best path for the most people was a four-year degree. At the same time, we took shop class out of high school.

The result of doing that is $1.7 trillion in outstanding student loans and 11.5 million jobs that can't be filled right now that don't require four-year degree. Ergo, we continue to lend money we don't have to kids who are never going to be able to pay it back training at the jobs that don't exist anymore. Of course, they're miserable, right?

So, yeah, the bigger issue in my view starts with work being a four- letter word. Why are we so -- why -- why are we trained to run from it and why are the portrayals on T.V. over and over and over -- look at a skilled -- look at a plumber. Five will get you 10. He's 300 pounds with a giant butt crack hanging out, right? That's what we're trained to see.

Always the punchline of a joke. They are always somehow subordinate. A trade school has turned into some kind of vocational consolation prize. It's the thing you do if you can't do this, right? So, we got our thumb on the scale and we've created a lot of these problems on our own. Work ethic all by itself is not the problem or the solution, but it's an ingredient in the cake.

CAMEROTA: But do you like the idea of a four-day work week?

ROWE: I'm not opposed to it. I mean, it depends what I'm doing on the other three, to be honest with you. I'm not sure retirement is that great. Most people I know who are retired, I look at him, I kind of admire the idea, but I don't -- I don't much envy their life. Oh, and the other thing at the risk of sounding all classes and stuff, is can you afford to retire?

I mean, if you can, then it's none of my business. Fine get out of it. But again, if we've got policies in place that are affirmatively encouraging more people to work less then we're going to reap some sort of whirlwind. Some download.

KLEPPER: Well, we -- sorry.

CAMEROTA: This is my wheelhouse, by the way, I'm sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

KLEPPER: But I think like an argument for like A.I. right now is that it can be -- it can -- it can help accentuate people who need an assistant, need that knowledge base, need an accelerant who might not normally happen. It might be a privileged at its best form. It may be privilege for folks who don't have those types of privileges to do work better. And I wish that we're having more conversations about doing work better, so our life isn't work. Work helps give us life. That might have been a platitude. I know you don't want me speaking from those --

ROWE: No, it was (inaudible). You sold it in a rich, well-modulated baritone. I'm hanging on everywhere.

CAMEROTA: Mosh, last word.

OINOUNOU: To Mike's point, I'm a son of a cabinetmaker, grew up in his cabinet shop. We have a shortage of carpenters in this country. We have shortage of plumbers in this country. We have shortage of electricians in this country, and there needs to be a respect for that work.

And by the way, my dad recently retired, would love to be working full time. Still trying to figure out what to do in retirement.

CAMEROTA: Is that right?

ROWE: Give him my regards.

OINOUNOU: He's watching.

CAMEROTA: Friends, thank you very much, and be sure to stick around for the top of the hour because our favorite CNN reporters will be here to dive into the stories that they have been covering, including the one and only Harry Enten, who's got new polling that shows more Americans are fed up with defining themselves by their jobs. But first, how much are you willing to pay for a piece of nostalgia? What about $28,000? That's what one Rocky VHS tape got. We'll explain, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00]

CAMEROTA: Guys, that's awesome. Emma, that's what movies used to look like. Before they had to be really fast.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDBERG: I did "Cocaine Bear."

KLEPPER: "Cocaine Bear." The Rocky of our generation.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Very similar. That was fantastic, "Rocky." Remember back when you went to see movies in the movie theater? Then there was this amazing invention called Blockbuster and you got to go rent a movie and, in an effort, to capture that nostalgia, one person purchased a factory sealed copy of "Rocky" for $27,500 at an auction. And that was not the only high-ticket VHS tape for sale. My panel is back with me now. Okay $28,000 for a "Rocky" VHS. Who would buy it? Who would pay?

ROWE: Am I retired in this scenario?

OINOUNOU: Am I getting the French retirement package because the American don't (inaudible).

CAMEROTA: I feel like I have a "Rocky" VHS somewhere at home that I could just go find and sell.

KLEPPER: Right. I think that story is just sending everybody to the VHS collection to be like I have one in here. If I can get 500 bucks, right?

ROWE: It's a gold mine.

ROWE: Like "Jaws." I'm rich.

CAMEROTA: I think so. I'm going to go home and look, but okay. But it's about nostalgia, obviously. So, who -- would you -- are you a nostalgic person?

ROWE: No, but years ago, I worked at QVC and I sold dubious things in the middle of the night.

CAMEROTA: Oh, really?

ROWE: Yeah, for three years.

CAMEROTA: That's funny because we have some tape of that. We have a clip of that. Let's take a look.

ROWE: That's not cool.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROWE: -- belonged to the 60's or the 70's? Well, when were lava lamps hot, Jeff, 60's or 70's?

CAMEROTA: Oh my God.

ROWE: Look at that hair.

CAMEROTA: Look at your hair.

ROWE: Jeff's not sure. I'm not really sure either. They seem to be a part of our culture, but often imitated. The lamp is a little warm. Not unlike lava.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Oh, so my God. Mike, what's happening there?

[22:45:00]

ROWE: I was fired three times from QVC.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: That's not easy.

ROWE: Well, I did take it apart to really see what made it, you know, if there was real magnet.

CAMEROTA: Is that why you were fired?

ROWE: No, no, no. There were many other stories. The point is, the collectors on QVC, coins, stamps and dolls, right? People collect things --

CAMEROTA: Dolls, yes, I've heard.

ROWE: -- in droves like in ways that I never really totally understood. And it is -- it's not just nostalgia. The Germans have a word for it, weltschmerz. So, it's sentiment combined with nostalgia often times for a time or period that you didn't actually live through, like that's why some people of the standards, right? Today, the music of the 40's and 50's.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

ROWE: Anyway.

CAMEROTA: Mike, okay, I feel you're distracting us. There's so much to unpack in that QVC thing from the lava lamp to your hair.

ROWE: Yeah, with so many other (inaudible). So many other (inaudible).

CAMEROTA: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWE: (Inaudible) people waiting to (inaudible).

CAMEROTA: You're so right. We don't have time. Gentlemen, are you nostalgic?

KLEPPER: I am not nostalgic. I think nostalgia is like mushrooms, you know, like I should do it every once in a while, for a fun trip, but if you do it all the time, it'll wreck your brain. I mean, I love revisiting the past. I just think we are a culture that is so obsessed with it. I have a little kid right now and it breaks my heart that I know he's going to be a Star Wars fan. And I like Star Wars as a kid, but like for that story to take up the mind space over 40 to 50 years, it's like, can we not be writing new stories? Like, why can't my child have a new story arc and not have to be told the same saga around --

CAMEROTA: I mean, he could do Harry Potter.

KLEPPER: What?

CAMEROTA: If not, Harry Potter.

KLEPPER: We can have Harry Potter.

CAMEROTA: Take that.

KLEPPER: I guess he can have Harry -- that's a whole new, complicated issue as well now to have to explain J.K. Rollings and why she's dying on this cross. It doesn't make any sense. So, I think that's where I get up to him, like, oh, Super Mario Brothers, the number one movie in America today. Great. I'm glad we have such a plethora of new stories to tell.

CAMEROTA: Mosh?

OINOUNOU: Not nostalgia, but I have -- I love history. I'm a history nerd. So, I, actually, in our -- in our home, we have "Life" magazines like classic "Life" magazine from the 50's and 60's, which is very cool, like showing the like, very cool. Thank you, Jordan.

ROWE: It's a thing.

KLEPPER: Yeah, it's a thing. It's definitely a thing.

OINOUNOU: It's a thing.

KLEPPER: Definitely a thing.

OINOUNOU: Okay. Well, so, I have a thing.

KLEPPER: You have a thing. That's it. Yeah, continue.

OINOUNOU: And also, as a Chicago sports fan, collecting kind of the front pages of the very few championships that we've won through history, yes.

ROWE: We had Nat Geo, actually.

CAMEROTA: That's right.

ROWE: Naked pygmies.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. I remember and that was hot. And Emma, are you nostalgic for like, 2018? Like what -- what is nostalgic?

GOLDBERG: (Inaudible).

CAMEROTA: (Inaudible).

GOLDBERG: "Clueless."

CAMEROTA: Oh, yes.

GOLDBERG: I would buy a "Clueless" VHS. We have that for (inaudible). "Mean Girls." And 50 bucks.

(LAUGHTER)

GOLDBERG: Can I pawn it off for more? I don't know.

CAMEROTA: That's awesome. I am very nostalgic. I'm a very nostalgic person. And today, even before I knew that we were doing this segment I wore this shirt in to -- in to work just because I wear this shirt and I brought it up from my closet to show you guys. Like this is how nostalgic I am that I still wear stuff like this.

ROWE: Yeah, yeah.

CAMEROTA: See what I mean?

GOLDBERG: I love the -- I'll buy that.

CAMEROTA: Okay.

ROWE: Do you remember the rumor that went around KISS? What it -- what they said it stood for?

CAMEROTA: No.

ROWE: Knights in the Service of Satan.

(LAUGHTER)

ROWE: It was -- it was -- it was total A.I. nonsense, before there was A.I.

CAMEROTA: Before there was A.I.

ROWE: Not true.

CAMEROTA: Oh, (inaudible). ROWE: Nice shirt, though.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. All right. Stay tuned. Some Major League Baseball teams are extending beer sales, but not everyone is on board, including one Phillies' pitcher. We've got the booze news next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:50:00]

CAMEROTA: In today's booze news, Philadelphia pitchers -- Philadelphia Phillies' pitcher -- I'll get through this -- Matt Strahm weighing in on some Major League Baseball team's decision to extend their beer sales through the eighth inning.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MATT STRAHM, PITCHER, PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES: The reason we stopped in the seventh before was to give our fans time to sober up and drive home safe, correct?

UNKNOWN: Correct, yes.

STRAHM: So now with a faster pace game and me just being a man of common sense if the game is going to finish quicker, would we not move the beer sales back to the sixth inning to give our fans time to sober up and drive home. Instead, we're going to the eighth, and now you're putting our fans and our family at risk driving home with people who have just drank beers 22 minutes ago.

UNKNOWN: I'm not surprised, Matt. But you're --

STRAHM: You're not surprised either when you mess with billionaire's dollars. They find a way to make their dollars back.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Back with me, Jordan Klepper and Mike Rowe. You're both beer drinkers, yes?

KLEPPER: Indeed.

CAMEROTA: You too, Mike?

ROWE: You know, I'm doing a carb thing, but I've been known to enjoy beer.

(CROSSTALK)

KLEPPER: (Inaudible) putting our cards on the table. I do struggle with gout occasionally. So, yeah. I mean, Mike and I are really cool with beer.

ROWE: It's not the itching. It's the chafing.

KLEPPER: Yeah. ROWE: But yes.

KLEPPER: But other than that, you have just dudes who like beer.

CAMEROTA: Okay, got it. What is the right time to stop drinking beer on any night because that's what they're debating. Whether it's the eighth inning, the seventh inning, the sixth inning, when should people stop drinking their beer?

KLEPPER: I mean, that was -- first of all, that's the most sensical man in Philadelphia I have ever heard.

ROWE: Great head of hair. Let's be honest.

KLEPPER: Yes.

ROWE: Really lovely (inaudible).

KLEPPER: If watching a baseball game, I'm drinking all the way through the baseball game. I'm not -- I've gone seventh inning. I bought multiple beers, have taken them back to my seat because I'm shocked that I've actually stayed at a baseball game through seven innings.

CAMEROTA: So, you need the beer to get through the baseball game.

KLEPPER: I need the beer to get through the baseball games. God bless. I love all you baseball players, but boy, I need a little help.

[22:55:01]

CAMEROTA: Mike?

ROWE: I actually do love the game. It's one of the few sports I actually played growing up. I have a great fondness for it. Not terribly good at it, but I do enjoy it more with a couple of beers. I think the serious point to be made, if there is one, is that he seems to be assuming that everybody in the stadium is a, what's the word, a child. Just a child incapable of regulating their own intake of alcohol, incapable of arranging for a ride share situation, incapable of really applying any measure of responsibility to the business of being a grown up. So, you know, I'm going to side with the people who are in control of their own decisions and --

CAMEROTA: And drink through the whole game.

ROWE: In fact, that's their jam, assuming they can do responsible things vis-a-vis.

CAMEROTA: All right. Then you both win our parting gift. And because you guys, we know, are walking to your next setting, we have to go beer for each of one of you.

KLEPPER: Wow. A warm to go beer from CNN. How lovely.

ROWE: Look, look -- CAMEROTA: You're welcome.

ROWE: I was expecting a Bud Light.

CAMEROTA: No. Oh, no.

ROWE: See what I did there?

CAMEROTA: I did see what you did there. I saw that. I saw that. Guys, thank you. You're wonderful.

ROWE: Any American beer?

CAMEROTA: Thank you. No. You're going to drink that. This was made by an American company.

ROWE: Is it?

CAMEROTA: Yes. Don't be fooled by the (inaudible).

ROWE: Kombucha would be better for my foot to be honest.

CAMEROTA: Next we have some of our favorite CNN reporters. They're here to give us their biggest scoops. We have new details on the alleged leaker of classified Pentagon documents and Supreme Court facing a key deadline tomorrow. All that and more.

ROWE: (Inaudible). I really need an opener of some kind.

CAMEROTA: Oh, it's not a twist off?

ROWE: It's not a twist off.

CAMEROTA: Oh, we have an opener. We have an opener. We have an opener.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)