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Subway Chokehold Suspect Arrested; Mother's Day Lesson By A Librarian Canceled Over Books Unrelated to Mothers; Two Fishermen Sentenced To Jail On Cheating In A Tournament. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 12, 2023 - 23:00   ET



NANCY PELOSI, FORMER U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: You cannot tire. Resting is rusting. You've got to stay there.

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: Thank you for watching. You can see our entire conversations with Alexis Ohanian and Smokey Robinson anytime you want on HBO Max. And please join us here on CNN every Friday night to find out who's talking next.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to "CNN Tonight."

Daniel Penny, the suspect in the subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely, was arrested today and charged with second degree manslaughter. Jordan Neely's family says it's not enough. This case is raising tough questions about mental illness, homelessness, and the level of threat that commuters can be subjected to. Our panel will debate that balance.

Plus, what is President Biden doing about the border problem? It seems like everything he's trying is being blocked by the courts or the ACLU. So what's being done tonight with thousands of migrants that have entered the U.S.? Well, some are now living in the gymnasium of a New York elementary school. We'll discuss if that's the right answer.

And two fishermen are going to jail for their illegal and creative attempt to reel in a winner.


UNKNOWN: We got weights and fish! Get that (BLEEP)! Get out of here! (BLEEP) Get that (BLEEP)! Get out of here! (BLEEP) Out of here!


CAMEROTA: We will get into that because obviously people take that, they're fishing very seriously.


CAMEROTA: That was awesome.

GRANDERSON: That was Watergate awesome. We got him! CAMEROTA: That's exactly right. My panel is ready to discuss all of

that and so much more on this Friday night.

But we begin with the New York City subway chokehold case, 24-year-old Daniel Penny surrendered to police this morning and was charged with second degree manslaughter. Penny held 30-year-old Jordan Neely in a chokehold for many minutes during which Neely became unconscious and died.

There's been a lot of discussion this week about what could have been done differently, but the city has not offered any answers. So let's bring in my panel to discuss this. We have Republican pollster Lee Carter, one of my work husbands, LZ Granderson.


CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, Joey's another one, you know? So I am a --


CAMEROTA: -- I am a polygamist at work. We also have our old friend Samantha Barry here, who is now the editor in chief of "Glamour Magazine," and of course, another one of my work husbands, CNN legal analyst, Joey Jackson, regardless of what your real spouses have to say about any of that.

Okay, LZ, I was so taken by your column today in the "L.A. Times" about this chokehold death. It was eye-opening because you point out that everybody says Jordan Neely needed help, Jordan Neely needed help, and you point out he got help.

And I want to read the passage from your column. You say, 10 years ago, he admitted himself to Mount Sinai Morningside after telling police officers he was hearing voices. Three years later, police brought him to the hospital because he was suicidal.

Neely was on New York City's short top 50 list of homeless people in serious need of care. Neely received aid from the Bowery Residents' Committee. He got help, just not the kind that might have saved his life.

So what would have been the answer?

GRANDERSON: Well, I think in this country, we tend to throw money at all the problems. And in a lot of situations, things are underfunded and needs more money. But sometimes, you need to first realize how the money is being spent and is it being spent in the most effective manner before you continue to add more money to try to solve a problem. I can go on and on. We all know of tons of problems that we have that we throw money at, but not really seen if they're being efficient.

When it comes to the mental health case, you can't tell me that you can be arrested 40-some times each and every time. You are being diagnosed or that people are aware that you have mental illness and you tell me this isn't an effective system. It seems as if you've been encountering the system 40 times and your

life ends up the way that poor Mr. Neely's life ended up, that the system itself needs to be evaluated much more heartily because he was involved for over a decade and still for some reason couldn't get the help that he needed.

CAMEROTA: Mayor Adams has suggested and in fact, more than suggested, implemented and asked police and the EMS to involuntarily commit people, is that the answer, Lee?

LEE CARTER, GOP POLLSTER: Well, I'm not sure that that's the -- that's going to be the answer. I don't think there is one silver bullet that's going to answer all of these problems. Mental health crisis is real in this country. And I think this is, as you said, this is an eye-opening moment where we really have to think differently about how we address it.

So I don't think you can say it's just one thing, it's not just going to be EMT, it's not just going to be the police being able to diagnose it or say it at the moment. It's a whole system that's failing. We need to look at it from beginning to end.

CAMEROTA: Joey, I was interested in what the attorneys for both sides had to say today and how they basically characterized the issue on each side. So listen to this.



DONTE MILLS, ATTORNEY FOR NEELY FAMILY: No one on that train asked Jordan, what's wrong? How can I help you? He was choked to death instead. So for everybody saying I've been on the train and I've been afraid before and I can't tell you what I would have done in that situation, I'm gonna tell you, ask how you can help.

THIMAS KENNIFF, ATTORNEY FOR DANIEL PENNY: Shortly after 8 a.m. this morning, Daniel Penny surrendered at the 5th precinct at the request of the New York County District Attorney's Office. He did so voluntarily and with the sort of dignity and integrity that is characteristic of his history of service to this grateful nation. The case will now go to court.


CAMEROTA: Joey, let's talk about the first part of that where Dante Mills, the attorney for the Neely family says, no one on that train asked Jordan, what's wrong, how can I help you? What would that have done? I mean, that's a laudable goal. What would that have done?

JACKSON: You know, I think what the narrative is, in any case, you're gonna have competing narratives. And the narrative of the prosecution will obviously be that he did not deserve to die. And that while people --

CAMEROTA: Which we all agree on. JACKSON: -- 100%. And while people may have been uncomfortable, did it

rise to the level where you had to engage in a chokehold which would take his life? And that perhaps if people were more compassionate, more sympathetic, more understanding, more open he would not have died.

Of course, the defense will say something a lot different and their narrative will be that look people were scared and that the Marine jumped in because he was trying to preserve and protect other life. Now, that may belie the facts in as much as even if he was trying to protect, right, that is the accused defendant, did he go too far?

And in the event you put someone in a choke lock that -- excuse me, choke lock like that for an extended period of time, is that not grossly disproportionate to what threat they pose. So this will be a narrative that, I mean, this is going to do a lot in terms of, I think, pulling the city apart because they're going to be two sides of the coin who evaluate this.

But just last point, Alisyn, coming back to LZ's very good point, you know, it's a time to reflect and say, what can we do better as a society, as a government, as police, as EMS, as agencies that are committed to the development and growth and understanding of mental health issues. And until we get to the core of that problem, we might see this again.

CAMEROTA: Well, I agree, of course, with all of that, but also to LZ's point and his column, the city was trying. They tried, they tried repeatedly, but obviously it wasn't working. Sam, how do you see this?

SAMANTHA BARRY, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GLAMOUR MAGAZINE: I mean, nobody can watch that video without being horrified, right? And it really plays into this concept of the bystander effect, which is the theory that the more people that are there, the less likely you are to help. And what we do know from reports is that Jordan Neely, while he was vocally aggressive, he wasn't physically aggressive with anybody.

And he was put in a chokehold, and a carriage full of New Yorkers didn't do anything. They didn't say anything until the very end of the video. You hear somebody intervening and saying you don't want to get a murder rap. Your chokehold is very hard.

And you have the freelance journalist that took the video but the rest of the carriage didn't get involved, didn't deescalate, which I think is a hard thing when you're looking at New York. Where do you step in? But it's -- I think you can't watch that video without being horrified.


GRANDERSON: You know, if you go back and look at what we were doing in terms of mental health in the nation after Vietnam, right? And our boys and women came back and they weren't the same, and the conversations began.

And then President Carter comes in. And within this first year of administration he puts together a commission for mental health. And they go through all the checklists and come up with recommendations. And at the end of its first term, Congress -- all Democratic Congress actually passed a mental health bill that was designed to have a much wider range in dealing with this issue. And then in the very next administration with President Reagan, he basically gutted it, which was very similar to what he did in California.

I'm not putting everything on President Reagan's feet because obviously we've had many presidents to serve since then who could have done something. But if you think about what could have been, had Carter's, had that Congress's plan for mental health stayed in place in the 1970s, perhaps our conversations in regard to mass shootings and mental health would be different as well.

CAMEROTA: Well, thank you all. Everybody should read LZ's column in the "L.A. Times." Obviously, we'll continue to have this conversation.

Meanwhile, an elementary school gym in New York is now being used to house some asylum seekers. Local communities say they are not prepared for this influx. So what can the Biden administration do to fix it?




CAMEROTA: Tens of thousands of migrants are reportedly near the northern border of Mexico and heading to the U.S. Several cities already making disaster declarations. But so far, there's no sign of the overwhelming surge that some feared following the end of Title 42. I'm back now with my panel.

So good news, bad news, Lee. I mean, it wasn't catastrophic that had been predicted in terms of the influx, but it's still a problem. And they don't have an answer for it.

LEE: It's a big problem and it's not good. I mean, this is one of the issues that President Biden is failing on the most among voters outside of the economy, 58 percent disapprove of how the president is handling of this. And even worse, 52 percent say that he's willfully choosing to ignore the issue. And he had to have known he was coming. He's wanted this job for his whole life. He ran for it number of times.

GRANDERSON: I think only three.

LEE: Yeah, immigration is an important issue. We knew about Title 42. We knew all of these things were coming. He's big on infrastructure, what we need is an immigration infrastructure to get people here safely, legally, and get everything done the right way, and --


CAMEROTA: He can't do it without Congress, Lee. I mean, he's not doing nothing. He is doing exactly that. LEE: He had Congress for two years.

GRANDERSON: Well, had Congress, I think it's a little aggressive considering what we know will happen with two of the Democrats in the Senate.

LEE: Okay, but -- I mean, this is an issue that they could have made some kind of compromise on. This is the thing that I find fascinating about immigration is Republicans and Democrats agree that it's broken. We might disagree on how we need to fix it. Republicans might talk about a wall. Other people might talk about a path to citizenship. But if we can find something that we agree on, --

GRANDERSON: Well, the truth is --

LEE: --let's get it done.

GRANDERSON: -- it's effective when you don't agree because it gives you something to point a finger at, to be honest with you. Listen, I believe that, one of the biggest issues that this administration has is with communication and messaging and not just with the American people in general, but within the Democratic Party in particular, you should not have Democratic mayors and governors say we can't do this.

Not when you've been talking about this since 2018, not since you've been elected in 2020, not since you've had two years. If nothing else, your party should know what you're doing. The thing that --

CAMEROTA: So he could have picked up the phone and called different governors and mayors and (INAUDIBLE)?

GRANDERSON: the governor's association is saying this is the plan. These are the hotlines to call if you feel overwhelmed. Let's get on this, right away. Instead, you have Mayor Eric Adams, you know, going, I can't do this, and shipping buses and gymnasiums. And it's like a mayor of the major city who's a Democrat with a Democratic governor should not be in this situation.

LEE: But he shouldn't have to call a hotline either.

JACKSON: Yeah, but there's just so much discord over the issue, right? I mean, this is an issue which is so hot button in so many respects. And you mentioned earlier, Alisyn, it takes Congress as well to be engaged, to be involved. And --

CAMEROTA: The past laws, actually.

JACKSON: Yes, that's what they're supposed to do, right? But at the end of the day, it's so politicized, right? And we see that there is no real cooperation. The sides have been unable to come together.

CAMEROTA: But, Julie, I want to ask you about a law because it's not as if President Biden isn't trying things. He is.

Here's what he came up with in preparation for Title 42 ending. So there was a new asylum rule that they had announced, I believe yesterday. It says that migrants are ineligible for asylum in the U.S. if they did not first seek asylum in the country that they passed through like Mexico. If they found that they did not do that they can be removed through expedited removal and barred from the U.S. for five years.

So that is a strict stringent you know hard line rule that you would think that Republicans would applaud because that's something that they would want. But the ACLU is now suing them for this. So he says the Biden administration's new ban places vulnerable asylum seekers in grave danger. It violates U.S. asylum laws. So he's, even things he's trying are being shot down.

JACKSON: So, right. And that feeds into exactly what I'm saying with respect to there just being no kind of uniformity over how this issue is going to be addressed. You have the ACLU on the left who's attacking him. You just laid out what the basis of the lawsuit is.

And then on the right we have a federal judge that blocks him and in Florida that you know they block them and so where do you go from there on the immigration issue? Where do you have a consistent coherent policy where you give the ability for people to come into the country legally right? I just don't know where we go.

BARRY: I do think for me watching this one of the biggest missteps is this idea that these migrants seeking asylum are going to use an app that doesn't seem to be working. So we're already seeing reporting coming out of A.P. that there's people from Honduras that are trying to upload photos of being shot nine times, they can't even get through to the app. This is, that doesn't, I'm a, I come from immigration through the lens of a privileged white Irish woman.

CAMEROTA: Because you are in process.

BARRY: Yeah it's a hard process. The expectation that these people seeking asylum over a border are going to use an app that doesn't seem necessarily to be working I think is a little Pollyannaish.

CAMEROTA: So what you're saying is that one of the things that they did in again preparation for Title 42 is set up this app. If you didn't apply via the app. You know, they wanted you to do that.

BARRY: You have to get an appointment on this app.

JACKSON: It doesn't work. People don't have internet. It's in three languages.

LEE: It's in a silo.

GRANDERSON: I mean, the images that I have seen, it just doesn't seem like there's a cell tower anywhere nearby. I think the bigger problem isn't, and I've said this once and I'm going to say it a thousand times, it isn't the northern border of Mexico. It is the southern border of Mexico. It's why are they coming here in the first place?

We can't do much with Congress because politics, money, pick your poison. But as a -- As an independent government, we can't interact with other governments and say, what can we do? We figure out what we can do with Ukraine, not equating the two, I understand the need to protect democracy, but for a lot of Americans this is also about protecting democracy and I think the Biden administration needs to be a little more creative in terms of --

CAMEROTA: But then, do you --

GRANDERSON: -- starting the problem and not just to get to our doorsteps.

CAMEROTA: Sure. So do you like his idea that they first should apply for asylum in Mexico since they're coming through Mexico at the southern border of Mexico?

GRANDERSON: No, because, I don't think it's being done in a genuine way. I think it's being done to keep people from coming to America, not to help people seek asylum.


CAMEROTA: Okay, but I mean, Biden's responsibility is Americans.

GRANDERSON: Absolutely. And I think the Band-Aid that we've been using for many decades, whether you're talking DACA, whether you're talking, you know, Reagan come in and say, I forgive five million, you know, those are Band-Aids.

The question is, why are they coming here under these conditions? And we have a lot to say about that because our guns are being supplied to the cartel and we use a lot of drugs in this country that are illegal and coming through illegally. Those are two hard core truths that we're contributing to our own illness and as long as we keep pretending as if we're not contributing to that but some reason they're coming here and we have to stop them or put them in jails we're not going to solve this problem.


LEE: Look, I think it's incredibly complicated that, and there is, I don't want to say that there's not one silver bullet, but there are so many things that we can agree on when it comes to this. This is a humanitarian crisis. This is a country that was founded on immigration, on being the beacon of hope.

There's got to be a way that we can do this the right way, safely for everyone. There's plenty of benefits for immigration, but there's plenty of reasons why we need to hold back at the same time.

JACKSON: It just seems to me in some respects that the harsher that one party can be to immigration, to being strict on immigration, to keep them out, to protecting the borders, it seems to resonate politically. So how much of this is ethnic and race-based and driven? It's horrible.

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, and fear-driven. I don't -- I hate to say to go with racism first. I think that some media, other networks, for instance, and other people have really -- been able to drum up a lot of fear.

JACKSON: But where's that fear come from, right? The fear, we can't let them in, who's them? Right? Who do they look like?

BARRY: It also goes back to our earlier story, it's all about dehumanizing a certain group of people, whether that is a homeless person suffering from mental illness or this group of people trying to get in a border. I think it comes back to that.

GRANDERSON: And it's really dangerous and treacherous along that path. I've done my own reporting along the border, women are being raped, children are subjected to all kinds of abuse. It's humanitarian way beyond we don't know what to do with these people.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Nick Peyton-Walsh just did our hour long special that just aired at nine, and it is phenomenal. He goes on the trek with families and watches how dangerous it is. They see skeletons along the way. I mean it is to your point super treacherous. Thank you all very much for that.

Meanwhile, a school librarian's lesson plan. Her mother's day is canceled after some parents call it indoctrination. What does the story of a papa bear and baby goslings have to do with that? Well, next the librarian is here to explain.




CAMEROTA: A librarian in a Tennessee elementary school planned a Mother's Day lesson for kids who do not have traditional mother-father families. Then came the calls for it to be canceled.

A local chapter of a group called Moms for Liberty alleged indoctrination. They objected to two books, one where the main character has two dads and another about a bear who adopts a flock of goslings.

Here with us is that librarian, Caroline Mc... Mickey, Caroline Mickey, sorry about that, from Alpine Crest.


CAMEROTA: Thank you, thank you Caroline, really appreciate it. You're from Alpine Elementary School. So help me understand, I understand that a story about two dads may not fit for Mother's Day for some parents, I get it. What is objectionable about a bear adopting goslings?

MICKEY: I will admit, I was shocked that that was also found to be objectionable from what I have gleaned. It's that it is a, there have been two things. There was one that it was a male, because it's a bear, a male sort of overshadowing what is traditionally a female role or is a trans narrative, because at one point in the book, the goslings say mama because we know that birds tend to imprint on the first thing they see as their mother. And they say, and they called him mama, even if she was a he and he was a bear.

And I picked up the story because it was fun, not because of anything else.

CAMEROTA: Well, that'll teach you. I mean, I hope you've learned your lesson, okay, because a papa bear cannot raise goslings. I hope you realize that now. But I guess the larger, more serious point is that this group, Moms for Liberty, which they call themselves, I'm sure you're familiar with them, they say, why do children with true, okay, so you gave parents an option to opt out.

You sent, I guess, a message home, saying that this is what you plan to do and you gave parents an opportunity to opt out. And then they responded by saying, why do children with traditional family values have to opt out and be sent to an alternative place for an alternative lesson? Aren't these children too young for this? So what's your response to that?


MICKEY: I wanted to highlight the roles that mothers play. That's kind of the point of "Stella Brings the Family." "Stella Brings the Family," she has two dads, yes, but it's only sort of -- It's why she doesn't have a mother.

The point of "Stella Brings the Family" is that her school is having a Mother's Day celebration and she experiences the very real anxiety of not having a mother to bring to this -- to this party, and all of this week, I can guarantee you classrooms all over the country were creating things for Mother's Day.

And there's the very real thing that some children don't have mothers for whatever reason. I've had people very kindly reach out to me saying that their mother passed away when they were young, their mother died by suicide, they were raised by two dads, or, I mean, and those are just some of the stories that I've gotten, and children experience anxiety, and it might be the small anxiety of not knowing how to tie your shoes when all of your classmates do, and it might be the anxiety of not having someone to bring to a party that all of your classmates get to.

One person who sent me an email said that he didn't have a mom growing up, and why was that the responsibility of a six-year-old to explain that to his classmates when it could have been in a book like this that explains. Here's one reason why a person doesn't have a mother.

And instead of that person who makes their lunches or who kisses their hurts, or who tucks them into bed at night isn't a mother, but is someone else. She ends up bringing five or six family members to this party and it takes five people for the role of one mother, which was gonna be what we were gonna talk about.

CAMEROTA: Well, thank you for explaining all that, Caroline. Really appreciate that. I wanna read the statement that the school said. Basically, the school, the way I interpret it, it sounds like if you had included also a story about a mother that they might have felt better about it, maybe here's the statement.

As a school district, we are committed to ensuring every student belongs and every community is served. We chose to delay a planned lesson at Alpine Crest Elementary School as we continue to consider the best ways to serve our students and families. The issue in question here is not the content selected, but the range of content available in the lesson that would have been inclusive to all family models.

Now, is Caroline still with us?


CAMEROTA: Caroline, so what about that, if you had a book with female mother in addition to the other two?

MICKEY: I that was actually part of my alternative lesson. I had a book called a mother for choco which is also about a bear, but it's a female bear and she, but she is adopting other animals.

So the point of the story is there's this bird and he's looking for a mother and all the other animals are saying, well, I don't look like you and the bear or the bird points out to the bear. She goes, well, if I looked like you, that would be silly if I had a beak and I had yellow feathers like I'm still there.

And also I really believe that "Stella Brings the Family," does that. I mean, she has two dads, but she also brings her uncle Bruno and her aunt and her Nana to this party. So it talks about how it could be a grandmother, how it could be an uncle or an aunt, how it could be another family member.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. Well, you've made the case here. I mean, maybe it's just all the bear content that they're really fine, controversial, I don't know. But -- but Caroline, thanks. Thanks for --

MICKEY: What does a bear know about teaching goslings to fly?

CAMEROTA: Yeah, I mean, obviously. So thanks for explaining all of that to us and good luck with your students and we'll obviously be following to see what happens next.

MICKEY: Oh, thank you. We made origami flowers this week. They were beautiful and adorable.

CAMEROTA: Good. Thank you. Then we all feel a little bit better about that. I know that my panel wants to weigh in on this too. Caroline, thank you. Happy Mother's Day.

MICKEY: Thank you. Happy Mother's Day to you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

Okay, I want to bring in my panel. Well, I mean, don't we all -- Do you wish that your kids had a teacher like that?

GRANDERSON: I was just thinking, I wish that was my librarian. Like today. Like today.

LEE: Totally.

GRANDERSON: I wish that was my librarian like today.

BARRY: I want to make origami flowers with her.

LEE: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: I think she would be very open to that, Samantha. But -- so the moms basically are uncomfortable that there are these different models of families.


BARRY: It's ridiculous. Like let's just call a spade a spade. It's ridiculous. These are books for children that show different parts of the world. There are many children, as Caroline said, that do not have mothers, that have one father, that are raised by their grandmother. It's a bear and it's goslings. Like, it's ridiculous that we are in banning of book eras, footloose, what music is next. Like, it's ridiculous.

CAMEROTA: All right.

JACKSON: It's ridiculous. Now listen, I think people obviously are very protective of their children, what their children do, what they listen to, who they're with, but at the end of the day it's a large world. And I think we're better because we can expose children to a variety of outcomes, a diversity of notions, a variety of opinions.

And if people or parents don't want to participate then opt out and don't do it. But I think at the end of the day she was very creative. At the end of the day, she was, in my view, very inclusive. And I think that's what we need, inclusivity. And there's, you know, a lot of non-tradition.

CAMEROTA: There sure is. Lee, we're out of time, but I wanted to get to you because I hadn't heard from you.

LEE: I think a majority of people agree with you. Even Republicans, they want to be able to have parental choice, which means they want the parents to be able to say, I opt out. But they're not opposed. I mean, the idea that Republicans are supporting book banning and all of that is becoming a symbolic point that isn't necessarily the truth. And so --

GRANDERSON: You can tell Governor DeSantis that?

LEE: Well, look at why he's dropping the polls, 20 percent in two months. There's a reason. He's focused on the wrong things.

JACKSON: But he's not running for president yet. CAMEROTA: Still very interesting. Thank you for that data point.

Okay, up next. Two fishermen are sentenced to jail after the director of a tournament smelled something fishy about their entry. Justice. Yeah, finally. Justice is served. And dinner.


UNKNOWN: We got weights and fish! Get that (BLEEP)! Get out of here! (BLEEP) Get that (BLEEP)! Get out of here! (BLEEP) Out of here!





CAMEROTA: Remember this fishy story?


UNKNOWN: We got weights and fish! Get that (BLEEP)! Get out of here! (BLEEP) Get that (BLEEP)! Get out of here! (BLEEP) Out of here!


CAMEROTA: That is the moment when two Ohio fishermen were caught cheating in a competition last year by loading their fish with lead weights and fish filets trying to win $29,000. Now they're getting jail time, LZ. They are getting jail time, these two guys. How much you ask for cheating in a fishing tournament? Ten days. Each one also has to pay a $2,500 fine and serve six months' probation.

Let's get back to my panel. I've never seen you laugh harder than the moment the lead weights are discovered in the fish.

GRANDERSON: Because I can understand the passion. Because, you know, Fishermen take this really, really seriously, right? And I can see them sit down like going, how does he keep running? How does he keep running? And then when he fucking busts like, oh, we got you, we got you. I knew I was better than you. I told you he got the vibe. It was awesome.

CAMEROTA: That is awesome.

BARRY: Supposedly, Jacob and Chase, these two fishermen, had had a curious run of success and that is why there was suspicion on them. But my favorite thing out of the court case was the defense attorney saying that there will be endless public humiliation for these two fishermen, so that whenever they go on a date, whenever they get a job, it's gonna be Googled. I've been on enough dating apps, Alisyn, to say there's a lot of fishermen on them holding fish, so we'll probably see those photos.

CAMEROTA: Is there, have you come across them?

BARRY: Not them, but there's definitely people holding big fishes.

CAMEROTA: That's, absolutely. So are you attracted to those on dating apps?

BARRY: No, no, that's a slight, right, right, yeah.

JACKSON: Especially not those who stuff fish with weights, okay? But you know-

CAMEROTA: What's the crime, Joey, just, I've just said, what is the crime called here?

JACKSON: You can't, it's- cheating for fish.

LEE: No.

JACKSON: It's fishy cheating.

LEE: No.

JACKSON: I mean look-

GRANDERSON: Isn't that fishy side or something?

JACKSON: It is. Yeah, absolutely.

CAMEROTA: Rule breaking.

JACKSON: But listen, what's very interesting to me is that the defense attorney talks about the fact that they'll be publicly humiliated for the rest of their life. Who do they have to blame for that? Themselves. So the reality is --

They'll be publicly humiliated and then he's making that argument while your client put himself in that position.

GRANDERSON: I hear you brother. I keep wondering what public who was sitting back just waiting to go aren't you the fighting, cheating, cheating --

LEE: All the other fishermen.

CAMEROTA: All the other fishermen

GRANDERSON: All the other fishermen?

LEE: Yes.

GRANDERSON: oh come on!

LEE: Fishermen are prone to exaggeration. It's well known. Everybody knows about the fake camera angles that they use. This is actually... GRANDERSON: I thought you said everyone knows.

LEE: Everyone knows. Are you married to a fisherman? I am married to a fisherman. All right, here we go. But he would never cheat. They just... Tell stories bigger. They embellish. And so this is actually criminal to him. Not criminal to me. It's a complete waste of our justice system.

CAMEROTA: So your husband's wildly offended by the fact that these guys did this.

LEE: I mean, can you imagine?

GRANDERSON: There is a cash prize, right?

LEE: And it is crafty. It's creative. I mean, to think that they have small fish and lit, like I'm trying to figure out why they wasted. Any space on -- yeah, like, yeah, I don't understand what it means to the space.

GRANDERSON: Maybe the chicken nugget was used to get the fish actually ingested? Like, I'm assuming the fish was alive.


CAMEROTA: It's a fish filet. It's a fish filet, but we think, our theory is that they put the lead into the little fish and then put the little fish into the bigger fish to throw everybody off.

JACKSON: But there's a larger lesson. And the lesson is, do not engage in fraud. Do not engage in misrepresentation. Do not engage in Marxism.

CAMEROTA: Oh, You're serious.

GRANDERSON: I thought the lesson was, be a better fisherman.

JACKSON: If you do, whether it's fishing or some other activity where you're competing with others who are doing things the right way.

CAMEROTA: Don't cheat, is what you're saying.

JACKSON: There are consequences. 10 days jail without the bail and $2,500.

LEE: Now think about, though, the criminal system that was just, I mean, the amount that was spent having a trial, now putting them in jail for 10 days, and how those resources could have been used.

JACKSON: But it goes to the larger issue, right? And everything you do, think about it, our system is about deterrence. It's not only about those individuals who engage in the activity, it's about those others who might consider it, who are not only in the fishing industry --

BARY: Fishermen beware. ..

JACKSON: -- but in the other industries. CAMEROTA: consider yourself warned.

GRANDERSON: Is it a copy cast or is it a copy face?

CAMEROTA: I'll let you guys debate this during the break. Thank you very much.

All right. We are a nation with no federal family leave policy and "Glamour Magazine" is part of the effort to change that. Samantha Barry is going to explain how they're doing it and including more of the, shall we say, creative approaches that she's using. Next.




CAMEROTA: I'm back with "Glamour Magazine's" editor-in-chief Samantha Barry because yesterday Glamour in partnership with Paid Leave for All went to talk to Congress to discuss the urgency of passing paid family and medical leave. Sam is here to explain why that is so important and how the U.S. is different than so many other countries. Why don't we have this?

BARRY: It's embarrassing. There's six nations in the world that do not have paid leave. It is us, Papua New Guinea, Micronesia and it's small, not... wealthy nations and the U.S. This is somewhere we're a massive outlier and it's embarrassing. Also if you look at paid leave right in America we have no paid leave nationally.

We, thirty years ago we just had the thirtieth anniversary of the Family Medical Leave Act. Nothing has moved on for families, for mothers, for parents since then. And you have a situation in America that one in four mothers go back to work within two weeks of giving birth. These are women that are bleeding --

CAMEROTA: How is that possible?

BARRY: They have to financially. They're not just set up for that. Now, there are cases, obviously, in America where your corporation, if you work for a corporation or some states are giving it to you. But we need to have a national policy. And that's something that we've been really pushing at Glamour.

CAMEROTA: So when you went to Congress and you met with different members of Congress, what was the response?

BARRY: You know what? We met with a lot of Democrats. I feel like this shouldn't be a bipartisan issue. It seems like it has become one of a little bit. It's I think we got a great reaction. We bought a lot of the mothers that we followed.

We followed five mothers in the first. 28 days of postpartum to really show what that looks like. Because the reality is most other countries in the world give up to three months, maybe more paid leave. We in America could not even pass four weeks. We couldn't even pass.

CAMEROTA: So you were saying, shouldn't be a partisan issue, but are Republicans opposed to that? What's their rationale?

BARRY: I don't think so. You have a space now where Biden has put $325 billion into the current budget for paid leave. But we have seen historically, that paid leave, often is one of the things that gets lost in the shuffle. It's the collateral damage.

But the reality of it is, if paid leave, it's not a partisan issue. If you talk to voters, everybody wants it, right? Like it's a slam dunk by my opinion.

But I think we went to D.C. yesterday, we brought the women, we met with Chuck Schumer, we met with a lot of democratic leaders that have been really pushing this, like Congresswoman DeLora, who's been really pushing it for many a decade, and we talked to representative Gomez who's head of the Dads Caucus. So I think not only are the women in politics fighting for it in D.C. you're also seeing some of the men now which is always good.

CAMEROTA: That's great. Okay so in an effort to bring awareness to this you have a book. So tell us about the book and what the point of it is.

BARRY: Well we you know back to that stat one in four women in America go back to work within two weeks of having a baby. So we decided it would be great to have a baby book that just, babies gotta look after themselves.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's called Get Your Blank Together. Go ahead.

BARRY: Get Your Shit Together? Can I say it? Get Your Shit Together Baby, and it's basically feed yourself, look after yourself. It's just, it's this ludicrous notion that we don't think we should give parents time at home with their child. We don't do it as a nation, we don't give them paid leave. So we have given them a baby book series instead to help these. Kids look after themselves within two weeks of birth.

CAMEROTA: It's really clever because obviously it's very tongue in cheek and it just shows all the things that a baby would have to do at home alone since the mom and dad go back to work.

BARRY: I mean it's ludicrous. You get more paid leave in North Korea than the U.S.

CAMEROTA: Wow. I mean doesn't that just say it all. Samantha Barry, great to see you. Thanks so much for being here and thanks for bringing this to our attention.

All right. Nearly one and a half million children in the U.S. have a parent who is serving time. This week's CNN Hero knows what that's like, now she's making college more accessible for students like her.

[23:55:05] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YASMINE ARRINGTON, CNN HERO: What we're ultimately doing is ensuring that young people who have incarcerated parents are overcoming systemic barriers and also changing the trajectory of not only their lives, but their family's lives and breaking the stereotypes and the stigma around having an incarcerated parent.

UNKNOWN: Get ready for graduation.

ARRINGTON: Yeah, I'm not congratulate, I'm so excited.

What keeps me going, it's that proud mama effect. To see our scholars just achieve and accomplish and over time gain a sense of healthy confidence, just a little bit of support can go a very, very long way. It really is a snowball effect.


CAMEROTA: To learn more, go to and nominate your hero while you're there.

Thanks so much for spending a Friday night with us. Our coverage continues now.