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CNN Tonight

"CNN Tonight" Presents "On the Lookout"; Man Carries Assault Rifle Near School Bus Stop; Moms Express Concerns About the Impacts of Social Media; What Does Our Future with AI Really Looks Like?; NFL Legend Jim Brown Dies at 87. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 19, 2023 - 23:00   ET




CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST: Thank you for watching. You can catch my full sit-downs with Congressman James Clyburn and Priyanka Chopra Jonas any time you want on HBO Max. we'll be off next Friday for the Memorial Day weekend. Please join us here on CNN in a couple of weeks to find out who is talking next.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN TONIGHT. The race for the 2024 GOP nomination is heating up. Key announcements from Governor Ron DeSantis and Senator Tim Scott are expected next week. Our panel is going to tell us what to look out for on the political horizon.

And with the migrant crisis straining cities, we're going to tell you about a big story in the headlines this week that one of the men involved now calls a scam. The head of the Veterans Organization accused of rounding up homeless men and telling them to claim that they were veterans being displaced from their hotel lodgings to make room for migrants. She denies it. Tonight, we have the facts and the New York mayor is calling for an investigation.

And AI feels like a runaway train headed our way. Tonight, we're going to talk to a former Google executive who worked in AI and tech for decades. His warnings ahead.

But first, a segment we call "On the Lookout," the stories that we see on the horizon. First, the 2024 GOP primary is heating up. South Carolina Senator Tim Scott filing papers today with the FEC to run for president. He is expected to make a formal announcement on Monday.

And Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is expected to file paperwork declaring his candidacy next week. He was in New Hampshire today taking a swipe at Donald Trump.


GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): It's easy to be a frontrunner. It's easy to go out and take positions that are really popular at the time. It's harder to dig in and really cut against the grain. It's not going to be easy. But I honestly believe that we have an opportunity to right the ship and to get this whole country going.


CAMEROTA: Okay, let's bring in our panel. Jessica Washington is a senior reporter at "The Root," Jay Michaelson is a columnist for "Rolling Stone." He is also a lawyer, and a rabbi and God knows what else. Lee Carter is a GOP pollster and Joe Pinion is a Republican strategist and former U.S. Senate candidate. Happy Friday night, guys. Great to have you here.

Okay, so let's talk about these political stories that we expect to break next week. So, Senator Tim Scott officially filing his paperwork. He says he wants to distinguish himself as a positive messenger and to break away from what he sees as the culture of grievance. Is there a lane for him, Lee?

LEE CARTER, GOP POLLSTER: There certainly is a lane for that. I think a lot of people are tired of hearing about how bad it is, hearing about the radical left. I think that there is an opportunity for someone to come out and carve a lane painting a picture that's brighter for tomorrow. Is it going to be Tim Scott? I'm not sure.

Donald Trump is going to be really, really tough to beat at this point. He's ahead in the polls, depending on which one you look at, between 30 and 40 points. That is a huge, huge lead.

So, he -- Tim Scott would have to have a really, really solid message, one that would really transcend anything that we are seeing right now. Right now, he's way down in the single digits. So, it's going to be a tougher road ahead.

CAMEROTA: What do you think, Joe?

JOE PINION, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, it feels like 2016 all over again. I'm sitting next to Lee as I was in 2016.


We have a republican field that gets wider by the day, and we have a national body politic that becomes obsessed with national polls. This is going to come down to a state-by-state evaluation. We should be looking at the polls on the ground in Iowa. We should be looking at the polls on the ground in New Hampshire.

But I think, again, one thing you're not hearing from a lot of the candidates jumping in is that they are the best choice, that they are the only choice, that they can win.

And I think it speaks to the fact that President Trump does have a stranglehold on that base, that it is this bizarre kind of quirk in our politics where he is a de facto incumbent with all in many ways the power of an incumbent without the actual kind of downside of incumbency.

So, here we are as Republicans once again piling up. And with all those winner takes all primaries, as I keep reminding people, you can get 35 percent, but if you don't finish first, all you get is a ribbon and no delegates.

CAMEROTA: Hmm. That leads us to Ron DeSantis, Governor Ron DeSantis, Jay. So, he met today with New Hampshire Governor Sununu to talk about that primary. Governor Sununu himself might be jumping in to this race. Do you think that Governor DeSantis's fight with Disney will help him or hurt him in a national race?

JAY MICHAELSON, RABBI, WRITER FOR ROLLING STONE: Oh, it's interesting to just think about how in a sense a lot of the base of the Republican Party used to be supporting business, free enterprise, things like that. Now, it's corporations who are leading the charge against some (INAUDIBLE) conservatives, whether it's Dominion and the Fox News case or now Disney going up against Ron DeSantis.

It's hard to imagine that, you know, losing thousands of jobs in this gigantic project that Disney just cancelled that they are going to do in Florida will play to that base. But I think it is exactly what Joe said. A lot of this goes into the minutiae of what the rules are for these primaries.


And If -- this does feel like 2016 where there are a number of non- Trump candidates who have varying degrees of messages. But if there -- if the non-Trump base, what is left of, you know, the non-Trump voters, don't unify behind one of those candidates, it's going to be nominee Trump again.

CAMEROTA: Jessica, let's talk about another thing looming for next week and that's the debt crisis, the debt ceiling crisis. So, the talks are apparently stalled now. They've pressed pause on them today after there were negotiators for Kevin McCarthy and President Biden and they kind of reached an impasse. So, it doesn't look like anything is going to happen over the weekend.

The sticking point, we're told, is that Republicans want budget cuts with this. So, put aside for a moment the hypocrisy that when Trump was president, they weren't interested -- they didn't care that much about the debt ceiling or deficit spending. Let's put that aside. Is the idea of belt tightening -- they want to spend less money next year than they did this year. Is that fundamentally wrong? Shouldn't we be watching our budget?

JESSICA WASHINGTON, SENIOR REPORTER, THE ROOT: I think the problem is we're talking about this in this abstract way, kind of like individuals worried about should I spend less on coffee, should I spend, you know, should I knock at this, you know, drink when I'm out or dinner out.

And what we're actually talking about are real people who are going to be hurt by these budget cuts. People who are relying on these government services are not living large. You know, people who get food stamps, some of them are still serving.

So, these little cuts might sound like we just got to tighten our budget, but we're talking about real people who are struggling and we're talking about making them potentially struggle even more.

MICHAELSON: I think there is a fun twist in the story that I think may be coming our way, which is that the various kind of emergency options, whether it's, you know, minting the billion-dollar coin or whether it's sort of some congressional maneuvers to push this thing through, are looking increasingly likely.

And it's possible that this is actually going to go to the courts. This is going to be a whole new territory and that's going to depend, just like everything else with the courts, which court, what the process is, does it go to the Supreme Court, and I think things are about to get more complicated than even in past debt ceiling crises.

CAMEROTA: Oh, goody.


MICHAELSON: Jessica will have all the notes on that.


CAMEROTA: Okay. And we're also on the lookout for another big story that has been happening this week and, of course, will continue next week, and that is the migrant crisis. So, very interestingly, a story that was in the headlines that was upsetting, about a group of homeless vets who were allegedly displaced from the hotel rooms where they had been staying to make room for migrants. The story never smelled completely right because it didn't make sense to me, at least. I read it many, many times over the course of the week.


And I kept saying, but why were they displaced? Why couldn't the migrants go to the other hotel? Were the vets -- it just wasn't coming together.

And now, tonight, CNN is reporting that the mayor is going to -- New York mayor is going to be investigating it because apparently, from what we know, allegedly, a woman who runs an organization that helps veterans may have found some homeless men and basically asked them to masquerade as homeless vets. She might have paid them to do this, to claim that they were being displaced.

So, this is an aside, but the point is a lot is happening in this migrant crisis.

CARTER: It sure is. I remember, we were on the week that all of that was happening, and it really seemed like the migrant crisis was getting out of control. These kinds of stories, I think, are terrible because it distracts us from the real issues. We're going to start now fighting about whether or not these things are true.

The bottom line is this: We need immigration reform. Both sides agree to that. We just disagree with how it needs to get done. You know, Republicans are very much about stronger borders. Democrats very much about let's put the infrastructure in place to do it in the right way. We've got to fix this. This story, to me, is a horrific thing that happened, but we shouldn't get distracted by the larger picture. We have some issues we need to address.

CAMEROTA: I guess the point is there will always be people who take advantage of this situation.

PINION: O, yeah. I mean, it's tragic because lost in all of this is the fact that we have an acute humanitarian crisis brought about by this situation. And so, yes, I would agree with Lee that we've long known we have an immigration problem in the country.

The problem that no one seems to really want you grapple with here is that this is a crisis of the Biden administration's own making, that they, over the course of effectively two years, said they wanted to get rid of the state in Mexico policy. No one forced them to do that. They said they wanted to see Title 42 go away. No one forced them to do that.

And so, at the end of two years, when they've been suing states to not do their own business on the border, now we've reached the conclusion they wanted and surprise, surprise, they don't have a plan. So, I think, to me, that is the frustrating part that all Americans should be focused on. These are the conditions you asked for --

CAMEROTA: But weren't those -- I hear you, Joe, but weren't those COVID-relate? I mean, didn't that have to expire at some point?

PINION: Yes. I think Title 42 had to expire, but I think that the remain in Mexico policy was something that they, too, wanted to get rid of.


So, I just think at the end of the day, if they truly wanted to say, we have a new version of American immigration policy as it relates to the southern border, what is it, two years later, it doesn't exist. It is a makeshift, a day late many, many dollars short, and here we have migrants in crises on both sides of the border.

It is just, to me, something that we need to talk more about because at the end of the day, those are real people, real pain, real suffering.

CAMEROTA: I think you'll get your wish next week. I think we will be talking a lot about it as we have been. Thank you all very much.

Okay, this next story is jaw dropping. A man has been showing up at a bus stop for elementary school kids with an AR-15 rifle in order, he says, to make a point. We'll explain, next.


CAMEROTA: Okay, we want to show you what's happening. This is - these are images from just moments ago in Hiroshima, Japan where President Biden is posing, as you can see there, with world leaders at the G7. [23:15:02]

Today's meeting will attempt to project unity on China. CNN, of course, will bring you all the headlines and more as more develops there.

Okay, meanwhile, back here, for a few weeks now, in a suburb outside of Baltimore, a man has been showing up at an elementary school bus stop with an AR-15-style semiautomatic rifle. One concerned parent from the neighborhood recorded the man on his cellphone, and here is what that parent told CNN affiliate WBAL.


JAMIE SPARROW, PARENT: I feel like if we don't do something about it now, then we'll be talking again, and it'll be too late at that point. I think that lives could be lost, people could be harmed.


CAMEROTA: The man with the gun named J'den McAdory says he's there to protest recent gun reform measures that the governor of Maryland has signed into law. This is what McAdory said to WBAL.


J'DEN MCADORY, PROTESTING GUN MEASURES HOLDING AN AR-15: I really wasn't coming out here for the kids. I was coming out here to show people that this is legal.

UNKNOWN: For parents who might ask, just because you can do this, does that mean that you should do this?

MCADORY: No, it does not mean that. But I think that if I do this enough, that it will create enough deterrents from crime in the area.


CAMEROTA: Just yesterday, McAdory says he came to an agreement with school officials, and he will no longer protest publicly during pickup or drop-off times for the local schools. The local police department says McAdory is permitted to do what he's doing under Maryland law and that officers -- quote -- "are in the area to help ease growing concerns between students and parents."

I'm back with my panel. Jessica, is this possibly the most tone-deaf protest ever? He's protesting the governor's new gun reform laws. A lot of people protest with posters and pickets. He's bringing an AR-15 to a bus stop.

WASHINGTON: It is just the most absurd form of protest. And the thing is it just proves everyone's point that, you know, we shouldn't have AR-15s and people shouldn't be walking around the streets with them and that not everyone should own a gun. And I think this is kind of good messaging for that. The kind of person who would show up to a school bus to intimidate elementary school children and their parents is maybe not the kind of person we want walking around armed. And I kind of think he's doing a counterargument for himself.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. I don't know that he's trying to intimidate the children or the parents. I think that -- I take him at his word, he's trying to make a point that he's all about deterrence. Is he tone- deaf?

MICHAELSON: He's making a point for the other team. I mean, this is -- you know, this is just -- it seems to highlight the argument that this is not what the framers intended. That this kind of weird, cultic, strange fetishization of guns and semiautomatic weapons, this is not what the old NRA stood for when they stood for responsible gun ownership. This is a new strange phenomenon that we should really look at as the sort of mental health crisis in this country.

This guy has nothing in common with a responsible gun owner who might have a small gun for self-defense or for hunting, something like that. This is a great example, however, of the kind of near psychosis that pervades a certain extreme edge on this issue. The real crime though is that this is not a crime, that this is actually legal. That is what is the most shocking.

CAMEROTA: But isn't it only legal until October 1st because the law just changed in Maryland? Am I right on that?

MICHAELSON: Right. In the wake of the Supreme Court decision, invalidating New York's gun control laws, Maryland passed a very sort of skillfully written gun control law where everybody has a right to conceal carry. But this is an open carry, right? This is different. But you can't get the conceal carry permit if you fit into certain categories. So, it's arguable whether he does or doesn't fit into those categories, actually.

But this should be -- the Maryland law should be a good kind of compromise position. It's not an extreme kind of gun prohibition. It's somewhere in the middle. So, the fact that this is also getting protested, you know, it's like -- this just kind of moves the sticks.

And again, it's not just the one kind of weird guy on the corner, right? The NRA has immediately filed suit to challenge the Maryland law and there are a lot of folks who should know better who aren't condemning this kind of behavior.

CAMEROTA: Lee, I mean, showing up at a bus stop for elementary -- oh, let me just tell you, this is why one of the parents at the bus stop says that it is causing so much -- he may think it is deterrence, but it's causing the kids anxiety for this reason.


MICHAEL HALEY, PARENT: They're trained to hide the if this thing enters their school and it's right there. How can -- how can they not be a little nervous about that? How can it not give them anxiety? (END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Such a great point. All of our kids are doing drills right now for active shooter drills. And he decides to go to the bus stop.

CARTER: My 4-year-old had an active shooter drill in her school and it's absolutely horrifying. There's just nothing that's okay about this. I've got to say this kind of stories make me crazy because it makes it seem like that's what the right is out for and it is not. Look at the polling.


Two-thirds of Americans want stricter gun laws, 87 percent of Americans want criminal background checks, 77 percent want a 30-day waiting day period, 81 percent want to raise the age, 80 percent say that they should be able to have mental health checks.

Americans agree on so many issues here. This is the kind of thing that just makes -- it just seemed like there's a side that is insane and that's not the case. They represent a fraction of Americans.

And what I also want to say is it is a shame and scary. Fifty-four percent of Americans say that they have had one of this experience, a close encounter with someone with a gun. This is not the America that we want to live in, this is not what the Second Amendment was about, and this isn't what America wants.

So, these kinds of stories really do make me crazy because this is not -- I don't think this is a representative of what --

MICHAELSON: Can we go back to the last segment? I think both of you really know the republican electorate very, very well. Is there a moment -- is there going to be a moment where one of these non-Trump, may non-DeSantis candidates actually step up and speaks for this, you know, large part of the party that wants sensible gun reform?

PINION: Well, I think part of the problem with the conversation in general is that there is the underlying belief even amongst those people with those numbers that there is a desire for people on the left to have a complete prohibition on guns.

And I think that that becomes a sticking point for a lot of people. I can't sit at the table in good faith about common sense gun restrictions with a person that I believe wants to take away all the guns. That has nothing to do with this particular case, a person who has shown up with a gun scaring the bejesus out of the children.

So, I just think that on some basic level, to Lee's point, it makes it more difficult for us to have these pertinent conversations about how do we find common ground on issues where there is already demonstrated desire for the American people to create conditions where we don't have children being shot in math class.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. I mean, I understand that you or some Republicans may think that some left-leaning Democrats want to take away all the guns. But generally, when they're negotiating, that's not their starting point. I feel like that becomes like a talking point on the right.

PINION: It's not a talking point because I think that if you look at all the organizations that are pushing for this fight, the great many of the solutions that they've put forth inevitably revolve around trying to have some form of gun removed. First, it's the AR-15s, then it's the certain safe sensitive spaces.

So, I just think on some basic level, we have to decide what is the position of the Democratic Party on gun. What is that position? And I'm happy to sit down with as many Democrats. I know many Republicans are happy to sit down once that has been established.

It comes to this waffling where they can say they don't want to take away the guns here while the people who are funding the efforts and also while the people that are the most vociferous on the issue tend to actually have a different point of view.

MICHAELSON: I did a little bit of homework because I have a feeling you're going to say that. I mean, I looked over every town for gun safety nonpartisan organization which leans toward more gun safety rule. No one is calling for what you are calling for at least in the mainstream.

PINION: When you say what I'm calling for, what --

MICHAELSON: No one is calling --


MICHAELSON: -- take away all the guns.

PINION: No, no, no. At some basic level, right, it's how you craft legislation, right? For instance, no one says in New York City you are prohibited from having an actual conceal carry permit, right? But the standards that are prescribed to allow you to have that conceal carry permit are such that it basically makes it impossible to get that permit.

I'm using that as one example, but I'm simply saying that yes, you don't have to say we're coming to get all the guns, but if the manner in which you have to go through the process to get the gun makes it prohibitive for most people to even be able to meet that standard, then it has the same effect.

CAMEROTA: We have to go. Any final thoughts?

MICHAELSON: I mean, again, I hear you on that, I get that, but this claim that like there are some on the left who just want to take away all the guns, it's just isn't borne out by the fact of where the advocacy organizations are, let alone the party are on this issue.

CAMEROTA: Okay. We have to go. Thank you both for those points. Ahead, the moms are talking about what their biggest fears are. Pollster Frank Luntz shows us why mothers are fed up with social media and their fears about AI.


FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGIST: Stacy, why does social media make it harder for you to be a mom?

UNKNOWN: Because I find the more my kids use social media, the more they see what other people want their lives to look like. And they're almost, like, jealous that their lives aren't as great as these other people.





CAMEROTA: Pollster Frank Luntz just gathered a group of concerned moms to ask their feelings about social media and artificial intelligence. It turns out they see danger. He started with the question, what one word comes to mind when you think of social media?


UNKNOWN: Influential.

LUNTZ: Shannon?

UNKNOWN: Dangerous.

LUNTZ: Amber?

UNKNOWN: I would say dangerous (INAUDIBLE).

LUNTZ: Janelle?

UNKNOWN: Cancer.

LUNTZ: So, Janelle, you said cancer. Explain that.

UNKNOWN: It just sucks the life out of people. That's it.


CAMEROTA: And Frank Luntz joins us now to share more about what frightens these moms. Frank, great to see you. That was -- that was sobering to hear, what they think about it. And what's also sobering, because I watched all the clips, was that they're worried about it. They think it's a cancer in their lives, but they don't seem to be able to do anything about social media and its influence on their kids. Is that right?

LUNTZ: And that's one of the challenges. By the way, there's nothing that would get me to get up at 4:29 a.m. in London other than this.

[23:30:00] CAMEROTA: Thank you.

LUNTZ: I was listening to the segment that you had before in guns and the violence of guns, and the fear that our children have is so significant. That's some children in some places. The scourge of social media and artificial intelligence is almost every child in almost every community in almost every neighborhood and home. We know the damage it does physically. We know the damage it does mentally.

Moms were telling us that their kids are staying awake at night, that they're not sleeping, they're not exercising, they're not going outside. They can't have communication with their own children. Their children don't know how to talk to their own parents. Many nights they spend at the dinner table saying absolutely nothing, and yet nothing is happening.

Alisyn, I don't understand why so many parents don't treat this the same way they would treat guns and narcotics and strangers and not let people into their homes. To me, the most amazing comment was from a mom who said, these are things I wouldn't let into my household, yet my children bring them in every single day, and I don't know about it. And Washington does nothing.


LUNTZ: It's not a republican issue or a democratic issue. You can be rich. You can be poor. We know the damage that social media is doing, and AI will do, and yet Washington does nothing.

CAMEROTA: And these parents feel so powerless. Here is -- you asked them, I believe, what their message would be to social media companies. Here's this moment.


UNKNOWN: That you are destroying the next generation for profit or maybe for more nefarious purposes. But they know what their technology does to children's brains. They have designed it to be addictive. It is an intentional play for them because eyeballs are dollars.

And -- I mean, I can't -- you know, I don't know how to convince them that their dollars are not worth the cost, but as a human being living here, watching what's happening to the next generation, as a mother, it's not worth the cost to me. So, it's not going to be in my house.


CAMEROTA: And then, Frank, I mean, obviously, that's frightening. And then they see on the horizon, you know, coming down the pike, AI also, which we'll get to in a second. So, tell us what their thoughts are on why social media companies aren't doing anything.

LUNTZ: So, they understand that the kids are addicted, but they can't remove their kids' addiction. They understand that it allows kids -- and those are the -- particularly the websites that show children an unreal existence. So, the kids come home and assume that everybody lives that life, that everyone has that clothing and those toys and those games and everything about it.

And it is so frightening because moms -- this is the toughest job on the face of the earth. And the social media companies aren't taking a tough job and making it impossible. Moms tell us that they've lost control. And most importantly, they're telling the world that they're losing their children. Such a big deal and we're not spending nearly enough time talking about it and doing something about it.

CAMEROTA: So, we are about to have a conversation with a Google executive about the dangers of AI and trying to sound the alarm about what's ahead. And these moms that you spoke to know about it. They already sense the danger. Even if they can't put their finger on what exactly it's going to do, they're already sensing sort of the looming storm clouds coming. So, here's that moment.


UNKNOWN: I am because I think AI is making humans obsolete. And I mean, they're smarter than the average human, they don't have emotion, they're taking away jobs from people, they're taking away that human contact.

UNKNOWN: It dehumanizes us as people. That's why it's artificial intelligence. You could make it do a lot of harm and it's all artificial. It doesn't have any concern for human feeling, human person. So, that's a danger.


CAMEROTA: What did you think about that conversation, Frank?

LUNTZ: I think it's actually less important. And I'll explain why. As adults, we have the responsibility to make decisions for ourselves. And there's sometimes when it's taken away from us. But still, we have the capability to know right from wrong. We have the capability to make -- to observe and to participate in our own lives.

Children don't have that capability. I love Google. Google is one of my favorite companies on the face of the earth. I depend on it. And all it takes is the Google executives, what power are you giving to moms specifically so they can control what goes into the heads and the hearts of their own children?


When you have moms in tears telling me that they have no way to shut off that device, that they take it, they take it away from the kid, they turn it off, and the kids become angry and temperamental, it's classic addiction.

You have to give parents better tools, more and better. They have the ability to re-establish that mother-child relationship, to re- establish the brother-sister relationship, to re-establish the child with all of the world around them.

Because let me be clear, if this is an addiction, this is dysfunctional, this is scrambling our kids' brains. And if you don't do something about it now, within the next five years, you're going to regret the hell out of it because it's going to be too late.

CAMEROTA: Frank, we really appreciate you getting up and being on at 4:30 in the morning your time to talk about all of this and the findings from that focus group. Really interesting stuff.

LUNTZ: Alisyn, thank you for doing this.

CAMEROTA: See you soon. Okay. So, our next guest says that AI will be a billion times smarter than humans in a couple of decades. A former executive at Google's secretive Google X lab joins me, next.





UNKNOWN: My robots don't kill people.

UNKNOWN: That thing threw somebody out of a window. Is that registering with you?

UNKNOWN: A robot cannot harm a human being.

UNKNOWN: You can trust them if you want to.

UNKNOWN: We look to robots for protection. Imagine the loss of all that we've gained because of irrational paranoia.


CAMEROTA: It's a dystopian science fiction hellscape that we've seen in movies, machines outsmarting human beings. Then there is the battle for humanity and in the magic of movies, at least, humans win.

But in real life, what does a future with artificial intelligence look like? It could potentially have inconceivable power and some pioneers of it are trying to sound the alarm.

Mo Gawdat is a former executive at Google's secret research and development lab called Google X, and he's here to tell us what the future holds.

Mo, thank you so much for being here. We've really been looking forward to this conversation. So, you know a lot more about AI than I think most of us do. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst, how worried should we be about artificial intelligence and what's about to happen?

MO GAWDAT, FORMER CHIEF BUSINESS OFFICER, GOOGLE X: Thank you very much for having me, Alisyn. This is a very, you know, a timely conversation, I would definitely say. Robots, as a comment on the science fiction clip that you showed so far, this has been a big part of the investment of machines and so on and so forth.

To answer your question accurately, there is a -- I would say there is a very low probability that a very bad situation would happen. There is a very high probability that a reasonably bad situation would happen.

CAMEROTA: So, do you lose sleep over this at night? I mean, are we at -- on a scale of 1 to 10, are we at a nine for how worried we should be about it? An 11? Where are we?

GAWDAT: I'm probably saying we should be worried. We should probably act as if it is a 9 out of 10. And probably react, you know, and sort of hope for a 5 out of 10. There are immediate dangers that I definitely believe we are not going to escape. Tension threat that we see in science fiction movie is much less likely to happen, but it is definitely a possibility. Think about it this way --

CAMEROTA: Hold on, when you say there are immediate dangers, can you just outline a few of those for us?

GAWDAT: It's game over for our way of life altogether when you think about it. We are today in a place where something like ChatGPT is measured to be 155 IQ. It knows a thousand times more than the rest of us. And it does that with almost 10 percent of the number of (INAUDIBLE) networks that we have with a limited compute power for a pilot.

ChatGPT 4 is 10 times better than 3.5. Just think about it. (INAUDIBLE) ChatGPT 5. It will be (INAUDIBLE) IQ of, say, 1,600. That's 100 times -- that's 10 times Einstein, right?

Now, we have to imagine what that means to the fabric of society. So, things like jobs are gone. We absolutely have to start reacting to this right now. Think about the reality of what kind of -- this is almost an Oppenheimer moment. Give that kind of power to one person and see the disruptive differentiation of power and how that would impact our society. It's definitely a call for action immediately.

CAMEROTA: So, Mo, when you say that they can become killing machines, as you just said, AI-powered machines, that sounds bad. What do you mean by that?

GAWDAT: Sadly, because of the system that humanity has built, which is known as capitalism -- nothing wrong with capitalism, by the way. There is a big issue with the autonomy if we get to capitalism. Capitalism as a process is very, very efficient. And when we use it to achieve more power and more dollars, if you want, then what ends up happening is we do the wrong things.


If you look at most of the investments in AI today, (INAUDIBLE) to what? They're going into killing, spying, selling (INAUDIBLE). That's it, basically. And that's not a special thing for AI. Every industry that wanted to make more money or gain more power, they invested in defense, we call it defense, we don't call it killing. They invested in selling, we call it advertising, we don't call it selling. They invested in gambling, we call it trading, we don't call it gambling. They invest in spying, we call it surveillance, we don't call it spying.

When you really think about it, if you have a cancer research approach, you need to raise funds. But if you said I'm going to pour investment on something that is going to sell more by capturing children in front of social media for a longer time to show ads, everyone would pour money on it.

The investments that are going today, it highlights my biggest concern. My biggest concern is not the machines. I'm actually not afraid of the machines. I'm afraid of what humans can do with such immense amount of power when the objective is more power and more money.

CAMEROTA: So, Mo, what should President Biden or Congress, our elected leaders, what should they be doing today to stave off some of this catastrophic scenario?

GAWDAT: We need to be a little realistic. We can regulate humans who are developing AI. You cannot regulate AI. You cannot regulate something that is smarter than you. That is foolish.

There another solution. That's not up to government to do that. We can talk about this if you want to. The government today needs to start reacting a lot quicker than they reacted to the pandemic of COVID-19, right? We waited until there was patient zero and then we waited until there was patient 10,000 and then we acted.

This is a wakeup call today. It is not very difficult, you know, to predict where it's going. They need to, number one, make sure that anything fake is shown as fake. I think there should be a law that simply says, you know, people should be criminalized for putting out AI-generated content unless they highlight that this is AI-generated, that this could be fake.

I would go as far as to say face printers should have a remark on them that says, this is a face filter, this is not unique, right? They need to work on -- you know, there was the open letter trying to stop AI. That's impossible just because (INAUDIBLE) everyone trying to get ahead in aerospace through AI if you think about it.

But we need to find a way to tax AI-benefiting companies differently so that we can actually pay for the jobs that are going to be lost as a result of AI, right? We need to engage in ways where we say, yes, advance AI, but don't put it out on the open internet unless you are absolutely certain of the controls, right?

And these are all barriers that we've been crossing one after the other just because the topic has not been brought up to people's attentions, you know, loud enough, if you want, and I'm really grateful that you're bringing it up to people's attention because this is the time to act.

CAMEROTA: Mo, we only have 30 seconds left. Who should be pumping the brakes on this right now?

GAWDAT: I think businesses, investors, and developers need to be (INAUDIBLE). The first entry gate into unethical AI is unethical developer, unethical businessman. I ask all investors to pour money on ethical AI. And you will make a lot of return if you make an AI that can cure cancer or help us with private change.

Don't pour money in the wrong places, right? If you don't want your children to struggle with the AI you're investing in, don't invest in it. If you don't want your children to struggle with AI, you better go out. There are million jobs. It is the hottest industry on the planet. Don't (INAUDIBLE) AI that is unethical.

CAMEROTA: Mo Gawdat, thank you very much for having this conversation with us. We look forward to having more with you because it is important that we know what is coming ahead for all of us because this is civilization changing. Thanks so much for sharing your expertise with us. Great to talk with you.

GAWDAT: Thanks very much.

CAMEROTA: And we'll be right back.




CAMEROTA: NFL legend Jim Brown has died at the age of 87. He had a remarkable career on the field and shocked the sports world when he retired at just 30 years to devote his life to acting and activism.

Former President Barack Obama tweeting, I was too young to remember Jim Brown's playing days, but I knew his legacy. One of the greatest football players ever. He was also an actor and activist speaking out on civil rights and pushing other Black athletes to do the same. Our thoughts are with Jim's wife Monique, his children, and everyone who knew and admired him.

More on Jim Brown's amazing life from CNN's Andy Scholes.


ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR (voice-over): Jim Brown's name no longer dominates the NFL record books, but many still consider him to be the best running back of all time. The former all-American football and lacrosse player Syracuse was the top draft pick of the Cleveland Browns in 1957. He led the team to the league championship game that same season earning the "Rookie of the Year" award. Brown never missed a game, but abruptly retired after just nine seasons.

JIM BROWN, FORMER NFL PLAYER: My attitude is that as a champion, I only relate to my level of performance.

[23:55:01] And I must remain pure in that, and I am pure in that. And I live that way. And what I've done speaks for itself. I only talk about it when asked about it.

SCHOLES (voice-over): He walked away from the game as the all-time leading rusher, a record that would stand for nearly 20 years.

BROWN: The intensity level that I carried and my numbers in nine years are going to be hard for anyone to match.


SCHOLES (voice-over): After football, Brown caught the acting bug, starring in the 1967 movie "The Dirty Dozen." He went on to appear in more than 50 films. Brown also made his mark as a civil rights activist, working with inner city gang members and prison inmates.

But Brown had his own demons. He spent four months behind bars for refusing to accept the terms of his probation for vandalizing his wife's car in 1999.

BROWN: I turned down three deals. Then when I was sentenced and given a ridiculous sentence, I turned that down. Why do you think I did that? Because I'm afraid to go to jail? Hell no, I'm not afraid to go to jail.

SCHOLES (voice-over): Through it all, he remained a sports icon. The only man to be enshrined in pro-football, college football, and Lacrosse Hall of Fame.


CAMEROTA: Another Cleveland favorite, Lebron James, paying his respects to Jim Brown. The NBA star saying -- quote -- "I hope every Black athlete takes the time to educate themselves about this incredible man and what he did to change all of our lives." His Instagram post includes a clip of him giving a bow to Jim Brown during the 2015 NBA finals.

And thanks so much for watching tonight. Our coverage continues now.