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CNN Tonight

Investigators From Special Counsel's Office Interview Georgia Secretary Of State Brad Raffensperger; Trump Indicted In Mar-a-Lago Documents Case; Trump Insists He Did Nothing Wrong; Biden Promotes Bidenomics; Sub Wreckage Debris Found In Ocean Floor; Madonna Recovers From A Serious Bacterial Infection, Postpones Her Concert Tour. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 28, 2023 - 22:00   ET




KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A health scare is forcing Madonna to postpone some of her world tour. Her longtime manager posted that she is now recovering from a serious bacterial infection, so serious that she was in intensive care for days.

A source close to Madonna now tells CNN she is out of the ICU and is expected to make a full recovery, obviously tonight. We are sending our best to her.

Thank you so much for joining us for this news-packed hour tonight. CNN Tonight with Abby Phillip starts right now.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much, Kaitlan. And good evening, everyone. I'm Abby Phillip, and this is CNN Tonight.

It is the tale of two tapes. Special Counsel Jack Smith's investigation into alleged interference in the 2020 election heating up today, investigators interviewing Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, former President Donald Trump famously called him in January of 2021, pressing him to find votes that Trump needed to win the state of Georgia, a state that Joe Biden won by nearly 12,000 votes.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have because we won the state.


PHILLIP: So, where is the special counsel's January 6 investigation headed? We'll discuss that.

And he's already indicted, President Trump in the Mar-a-Lago case, while Trump and his allies keep changing their explanations about that audio recording that CNN exclusively obtained, where Trump is on there discussing what seems -- and seems to wave around classified documents.

So, this is what he said about it before CNN got the exclusive tape.


TRUMP: There was no document. That was a massive amount of papers and everything else talking about Iran and other things. And it may have been held up or may not, but that was not a document. I didn't have a document per se. There was nothing to declassify. These were newspaper stories, magazine stories and articles.


PHILLIP: And then on Monday, CNN actually obtained the audio itself. Here's what he said.


TRUMP: Well, with Milley let me see that. I'll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn't it amazing? I have a big pile of papers. This thing just came up. Look, this was him. They presented me this. This is off the record, but they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him.


TRUMP: We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me. This was him, all sorts of stuff, pages long, look. Wait a minute, let's see here.


TRUMP: Isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know, except it is like a highly confidential, secret --


TRUMP: This is secret information.


PHILLIP: Speaking to Fox News Digital yesterday, Trump insists that he did nothing wrong, and he claims that he did not see that recording. But he also says, quote, you hear the rustle of the paper. The former president also saying that he had a whole desk full of papers, including copies of different plans and news articles covering many, many subjects.

So, where exactly are those plans? Well, a Trump campaign spokesperson told CNN's Kristen Holmes that he was actually referring to political plans. But then Trump himself later told reporters this. He said, did I use the word, plans? What I'm referring to is magazine, newspapers, plans of buildings. I had plans of buildings, you know, building plans. I had a lot of golf courses, plans for golf courses.

So, I want to start now with CNN's Senior Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid, as well as CNN Senior Political Analyst Gloria Borger.

So, Paula, to start with you, Brad Raffensperger coming in to be interviewed today by the special counsel seems pretty significant, especially coming after, we found out, that Rudy Giuliani was also questioned. What does that tell us tonight about the state of the investigation?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Abby, those two interviews, along with the rest of our reporting, certainly suggests that they could be nearing a charging decision. We have seen an uptick in activity in recent weeks. And, look, with Giuliani, we don't know specifically what he was asked about, but we do know that he was subpoenaed for information about payments and money he received around the time that he was filing on those legal challenges against the 2020 election.

But, Abby, that subpoena, that was sent over six months ago. And then once Jack Smith took over the investigation, Giuliani didn't hear a word until recent weeks, and that raises questions about whether he could be a target. Because, usually, if you are contacted this late in an investigation, it suggests that you may not just be a witness, you could also be at risk for possible charges.


This point is unclear if he'll be charged.

And, yes, with Raffensperger, an incredibly key witness, certainly not someone who's expected to be a target, but he can absolutely speak to that conversation in January 2021 that he had with former President Trump, because we know as part of this very expansive investigation, Jack Smith is looking at the pressure that was being applied to states, like Georgia, to overturn their election assault.

PHILLIP: That's really fascinating what you pointed out there about Giuliani. So, Gloria, on President Trump, I mean, he is still lashing out against his most recent indictment, but there is this real prospect of another indictment potentially dropping over his involvement in January 6th. How concerned should he be about this one?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think he should be concerned about all of them. I mean, I think the question, and I'm not quite sure how Jack Smith is going to work it out with Fani Willis in Georgia, who's also investigating the question of false electors, but I think he needs to be worried about all of them.

The question is, what did the president know about these false electors? Did he order them? We don't know the answer to those questions. But we do know that Jack Smith pursued the Mar-a-Lago case first, the documents case, that may perhaps be because it's a little more clear cut, and then now clearly is moving on to this question of rigging the election and perhaps even the insurrection.

So, if I were the former president of the United States and I saw these things piling up, yes, I'd be really concerned about it, even though, and you know this, Abby, even though his poll numbers are going up, it becomes the wallpaper of the campaign. And it is going to be about what? Some of the other candidates, like Chris Christie, we just heard, who was on with Kaitlan, are going to be talking about. It will be in the ether, and more and more people may start asking themselves the questions about whether they want someone with this kind of baggage.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, it's certainly going to be something that he has to contend with. Paula, I do want to ask you about Trump's response to that CNN exclusive audio recording where he's there, as we played earlier, talking about these classified documents. What is he saying tonight?

REID: Well, now, he is saying that this was just all bravado. And, Abby, as a fact check, I don't think that is untrue, but that certainly doesn't absolve you of potential criminal responsibility when you can hear him on the recording saying that he retained government secrets even after he left the White House and admits that he did not have the power to declassify them, as he appeared to be trying to share them with a room full of people who didn't have clearances.

Let's look at his full statement. Today, he said, quote, I would say it was bravado. If you want to know the truth, it was bravado. I was talking and just holding up papers and talking about them, but I had no documents. I didn't have any documents. But, of course, we know, he says in the recording something that was not included in the indictment, but CNN found in that recording, he says these are the papers.

Look, silence is an option here. He doesn't have to talk about this. But all of this is going to be admissible in court. And now, in order to have the jury believe what he's saying now, he has to convince them that he lied on the recording, right? He was lying to a room full of people. So, one way or the other, he's kind of boxed himself in to some serious credibility issues before an eventual jury.

BORGER: Imagine trying to convince a jury that you're a liar, and that's a good thing for you.

PHILLIP: Well, I mean, what about the American people, Gloria? I mean, to your point, we just laid out all of the different versions of the explanations here. I mean, there's a jury who needs to buy that, but also American voters would need to buy that. What do you think?

BORGER: Well, look, I think there's a base of people who are going to support Donald Trump no matter what. They're going to think it's a hoax. They're going to think it's a weaponized Justice Department, and we've heard all of that, including from many Republican members of Congress.

I think as you go down the road here and you start seeing the president, particularly in his own words, and then you see a president assembling, people are going to start scratching their heads and say, you know, even if I liked Donald Trump, maybe I don't want to go through this again. Maybe I have had enough of this. And that's what we're hearing among Republican voters. I would not say that it's a crescendo. I would say that he is very, very far ahead in the polls. But it's early. It's not late. And I think you have someone like Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson taking on the former president directly, and I think that that's going to have an impact.

PHILLIP: Well, we will find out soon enough. Gloria and Paula, thank you both very much.


I want to now turn to Conservative Lawyer George Conway. George, thank you for joining us here tonight. We were just discussing this issue of whether Trump's explanations are believable. I want to play here what former Governor Chris Christie had to say about that.


CHRIS CHRISTIE, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's getting cornered and he'll lie about anything. I think the latest lie is the one that he said just yesterday, right, where he said, I wasn't really showing anything. It was just bravado.

COLLINS: Bravado.

CHRISTIE: He was essentially saying he was lying to the people he was sitting, with Mark Meadows' biographers and his own staff.

But let me tell you something. That's what he does. He admitted he had the documents. He knew about the grand jury subpoena, but he was too busy to go through the boxes to see what was classified and what wasn't. And he didn't want to just turn the boxes over because he had golf shirts and golf pants in there. I mean, come on. There's nobody in America who believes that story.


PHILLIP: So, George, I assume all these public statements are potentially admissible in court. How much do they matter?

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE LAWYER: They matter a lot because he's lying about everything. I mean, we all know we've had experiences when people have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar and dealing with people who are telling lies and making up stories, nothing like this. He's just not very good at it. But he is a pathological liar. He will say anything that comes to his head at a given moment to convince somebody to divert attention and to convince somebody that some accusation against him is untrue.

But the problem is he has no defense. We've been watching this now since last August, and they have yet to come up with a coherent, factual or legal defense to these charges. And the reason is, is because he did it. He did it, and it was illegal. And there is just no argument that he has. And that's why you see him cycling and flailing about and going from, you know, saying that, oh, the FBI planted the documents. We don't know if they really did the documents. I was entitled to the documents. I didn't have any documents.

Literally, there is no lie that he -- I don't think he's run out of lies, with the last one when he's saying that these were plans for a golf course or something like that. I mean, yes, I guess the Pentagon does own some golf courses somewhere, but it's ridiculous, not what he was talking about. And we heard the tape.

PHILLIP: We will find out if there are more explanations to come for sure. But on the special counsel investigation into January 6, what does it say to you that Brad Raffensperger was brought in to testify today?

CONWAY: Well, yes, again, I think Georgia is going to be one threat. It's a very complicated case, which is why I think, as Gloria just pointed out a couple of minutes ago, it's why I think the special counsel proceeded with the documents case, which is just a single timeline, whereas -- is multiple timelines of people doing various things, Trump being involved basically everywhere, trying to get the vice president to violate the law, trying to persuade, to create slates of fake electors, trying to persuade the secretary of state in Georgia, Raffensperger, and people in Michigan and other states to try to end the litigation, it's just very, very complex.

But the Raffensperger thing is really significant because there's the tape. And putting Raffensperger on to explain the context of how the tape came about is very, very important. And when you combine -- yes.

PHILLIP: Do you think the tape alone, though, is enough to substantiate some kind of charge here when it comes to Trump?

CONWAY: I don't know that it's enough, but you have to remember -- I mean, it's pretty significant. I mean, he's basically asking for one more vote that he needs to win the election. I mean, he's not asking for an actual count. It's not a legitimate count. He's just basically asking somebody to fix the results.

But, you know, when you but you have to view that in the context of all the evidence that we've seen so far that came out, especially during the January 6th committee hearings in the House and how basically everybody told him, everybody who had any sense, lawyers, lawyers in the government, lawyers outside the government, his own attorney general, his own staff, and everybody was telling him, you lost, buddy. You lost. And so that's the context.

PHILLIP: He was pushing all of this anyway. So, George, also today, I mean, if there weren't enough legal dealings having to do with former President Trump, he is countersuing --

CONWAY: It's only going to be more.

PHILLIP: -- Writer E. Jean Carroll for defamation after a jury found that he was liable for sexual assault and that he defamed her. So, it's important to point out here that Carroll testified that a conversation with you in 2019 led her to seriously consider suing Trump. But do you think that Trump has a case here, a countercase to sue her for defamation? CONWAY: It is the most ridiculous thing.


I mean, and we've seen so much that's ridiculous. This is one of the more ridiculous things we've ever seen. Because the fact of the matter is the jury found that he sexually molested Jean. And whether it's technically rape under New York law or not, which is -- it would be rape in many other states, what the jury found that she did, and they did, and the jury didn't -- what he did, but the jury didn't find that she was not raped. They just simply said, we find that it was sufficient for the purposes of the verdict that they find that she was sexually molested in a very, very almost in an unspeakable fashion. So, it's completely any libel case that he seeks to bring based upon the proposition that he didn't commit technical rape under New York law is just ridiculous.

And I think what we're going to see is Alina Habba, who filed this thing, Joe Tacopina didn't dare file this, I think she's going to get sanctioned, like she did in Florida by the judge in Florida in that case involving the DNC.

PHILLIP: Interesting. So, we'll be watching that as well. George Conway, thank you, as always.

CONWAY: Thank you.

PHILLIP: And just ahead, fallout from the rebellion in Russia. Serious questions tonight about a top Russian general's whereabouts amid reports that he knew about that planned insurrection.



PHILLIP: Questions mounting tonight about the whereabouts of Russia's former top commander in Ukraine, Sergey Surovikin, who reportedly has not been seen since Friday. Now, it comes as The New York Times is reporting that Surovikin may have had advanced knowledge of the Wagner boss' plans to rebel against Russia's military leadership.

I want to bring in now former Defense Secretary William Cohen. So, Secretary Cohen, what do you think is going on with Sergey Surovikin and do you believe that he might have been aware of this attempted insurrection?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, Abby, thanks for having me on this evening. We are really in the land of speculation at this particular point that we really don't know. What I think we're seeing is with the longer he stays out of the public eye, the longer it is before he comes home to his wife, who said that he was had not come home from work yet, so a long day at the office for the past week. But the longer he's away, the more suspicion and speculation is going to be, that he represents more than just one individual. But there are other military men who share the same view about the war as Pregozhin did. So, I think that's going to raise the level of anxiety that President Putin has got to have his neck on a swivel, turning around and around 360 degrees, saying, who is with me, who's against me. And he basically is walking down in the Kremlin a hall of mirrors. How do you determine reflection from reality, and, again, who's a patriot, who's a traitor? And right now, he's got to be very suspicious of the people of his closest advisory team, both the government and also in the military.

PHILLIP: Yes, no question about that, because just the mere fact that Prigozhin could have gotten this far is an indication that something was amiss in the Kremlin.

But as you pointed out, Putin is trying now to double down on his support. He put out this video today of him being surrounded, almost accosted by cheering supporters. It's just one of multiple appearances that he has made since the rebellion. Few of them, I should say, are live. So, what message is he trying to send here?

COHEN: He's trying to replicate what Prigozhin was doing in Southern Russia, on the border between that and Ukraine, that he was getting a hero's welcome. He could not have that take place without a response. So, he's showing he's the man of the people. He's out there. He represents the people. The rebellion or the mutiny has been quelled and he's back in charge. And they should rest assured that there's not going to be disorder prevailing. Stability is key to the Russian psyche. And what he's trying to do is saying, everything is okay, the bad guys have been put down, and I'm still in charge.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, he is doing this in part because the reception that Prigozhin got, as you pointed out, seemed to suggest a lot of popular support, maybe nascent popular support for opposition. Do you think that there's evidence, even after Putin has come out, still in charge after this weekend, that he might be losing his grip on Russia in the way that some are suggesting?

COHEN: I think he has two problems. So, on the one hand, Prigozhin is saying, look, you gave me billions, but I want bullets. I've got the $2 billion or $3 billion you gave me to help wage this war, but I need bullets and you're not giving them to me.

So, there was a rage there saying, I'm in the frontlines with my troops. They're fighting and dying, and you're not giving me what you need to give me to help win this war. That's one aspect where the soldiers on the ground were supporting Prigozhin, and I believe that some in Moscow, in the military, were also supporting him, saying, we've got to do more to win this war against Ukrainians.

The second part of it is, there are those, I believe, in the Russian government who actually agree with what Prigozhin was saying. This is an unjust war that you are waging.

And he called Putin a liar, basically saying, you lied to the Russian people and to the world. This was not something with a threat to you. Ukraine was not thinking of advancing against you. So, you have put Russia in the crosshairs of the international community with all of the sanctions. And so we are now pariahs in many parts of the world, we're not gaining here on the battlefield.

So, he has people in his government questioning legitimacy of still being in Ukraine. At the same time his military are saying, you're not doing enough.

So he's in a real box right now. He's got to show I'm still in charge. I don't think he can afford to take any action that cuts the heads off a number of people right away. But those people who are involved and the planning and the support for Prigozhin, I think they will eventually be missing in action, as will Prigozhin.

PHILLIP: And that message that you pointed out about the war being an ill-fated war, that coming from inside of Russia means, the Russian people probably heard it, maybe some of them for the very first time.


It's really significant what you just said there. Secretary William Cohen, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

COHEN: Good to be with you. Thank you.

PHILLIP: And coming up next, President Biden embracing a new catchphrase about the state of the economy as he runs for reelection in 2024. It's called Bidenomics. And we'll break down what it means with one of the president's top economic advisers, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: President Biden giving a major speech on the economy and making the pitch to voters that the United States is heading in the right direction.

He's embracing the term Bidenomics, which is a play on Reaganomics, the president trying to claim credit for an economy where some indicators are trending in the right direction. Although public optimism remains low, Biden is aiming this message squarely at the middle class.


JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Bidenomics is about the future. Bidenomics, just by the way, is saying restore the American dream.

When we invest in our people, we strengthen the middle class.


We see the economy grow. That benefits all Americans. That's the American dream. Forty years of trickle-down limited that dream for those except for those at the top.


ABBY PHILIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And joining me now is Jared Bernstein, the chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers. Jared, thank you for joining us. So I want to start with this. Gallop today released their economic

confidence index, and it shows that Americans are actually feeling slightly better. That number is ticking up there at the end. But at the same time, they do remain overall pessimistic. A new AP poll shows 64 percent of Americans disapprove of President Biden's handling of this economy. I wonder, is Bidenomics a rebrand that is trying to change these overall economic approval ratings?

JARED BERNSTEIN, CHAIRMAN, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Not so much that as a description of an economic theory on one hand and very much a theory that's in practice on the other hand. That is, Bidenomics is already in our economy generating some of those positive indicators that you mentioned in your introduction.

Look, we're talking about building this economy, growing this economy from the middle out and the bottom up. And doing so on three pillars, Abby, finally reversing decades of disinvestment in this country that was a symptom of trickle-down economics, this idea that if you just cut taxes for the wealthy, somehow that's going to uplift the middle class. As the president just said, there are decades of evidence to the contrary.

So finally making smart investments in our public sector that crowd in private investments from investors here at home, empowering and educating our workforce and promoting greater competition, both to lower costs, very important for consumers right now, to continue the progress we've made on inflation.

Real progress, more work to do there, as well as giving small businesses a fighting chance in a world where there's been, under trickle-down, too much concentration in some key industries.

PHILIP: So, you are a numbers guy, so I'm going to throw one more at you. The AP had a poll out that found that only 47 percent of Democrats, that's your party, think that the economy is doing well. I wonder what, what do you think is behind that? Why is it that so few of the president's own supporters, presumptively, have such low confidence in this issue?

BERNSTEIN: Well, I think if you ask people about the components of Bidenomics or some of the specifics about the current economy, you actually get pretty different numbers. So we know, for example, that people's job satisfaction is at a 36-year high.

And again, pillar two, Bidenomics, an empowered and educated workforce. Now, we have an unemployment rate that's been below 4 percent for a year and a half in this country. And that's provided disproportionate opportunities to communities of color to people who are often left behind in trickle-down economies. So that's one poll number that I think is quite important.

If you then drill down further and ask people about the specifics of Bidenomics, you ask them about how they feel about infrastructure investment, about lower costs for prescription drugs, for insulin, about broadband. The president announced a $42 billion investment in affordable, rural, broadband in this country because we know, Abby, that having access to high-speed internet is like economic oxygen regardless of your address.

Those numbers poll, those projects poll in the 70, 75 percent range. So when you actually drill down and ask people about the granular aspects of what we're trying to do in Bidenomics, we are starting to break through with, I think, more receptivity.

PHILIP: So one of the components of what you're discussing here, the kind of disconnect that we might be seeing, you have people who may have jobs, but while inflation is trending down, it's still there. It's still making them unable to afford as much as they would like to afford. That's still a factor in the economy. So what is the White House doing about that?

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, the -- As you say, inflation, about a year ago, it was 9 percent year over year. It's come down by more than half. So last seen at around 4 percent. But you're right. We've got more work to do and we have components of Bidenomics that can -- that push on that trend to keep it moving in the right direction. So one of the things the president talked about is promoting competition to lower costs. How do we do that? Well, one of the things he's been working on is getting rid of junk fees.


Another is to save consumers over $5 billion a year when it comes to overdraft fees, helping small businesses come online, increasing the economy's capacity, getting the FTC back in the business of promoting competition in industries where there's not enough of that.

At the same time, one of the things we're starting to see now, this is key to your question, one of the things we're starting to see now are real wage gains. Since the last nine or 10 months, we've finally seen wages beating inflation, but by small amounts now, we have to build on that as inflation comes down and the job market remains solid.

PHILIP: I do want to point out that you talked about a lot of things to reduce costs, you know, relatively small things. But a lot of the big costs are food, you know, housing. These are big things that take up a big chunk of people's paychecks. One last thing, we only have a few seconds, Jared, but do you believe that there's a chance here in this next year of an economic recession?

BERNSTEIN: Well, first of all, let me just address, I know we have a few seconds, but it is really important to recognize that grocery costs have actually been coming down at a pretty fast clip. And not just inflation, but actually the price, the price of eggs is basically back down to where it was a year ago.

In terms of recession, look, if you look around where this economy is right now, the indicators that we use to gauge recession, they're just not flashing anything like a recession. Tight job market, strong consumer. I told you about some real wage gains that we're starting to see. And Bidenomic investment plans intend to keep that momentum going. So we like the kind of momentum we see. We think it's very complementary to the announcements the president made today.

PHILIP: All right, Jared Bernstein, thank you very much for joining us here tonight.

And just ahead debris from the destroyed Titan submersible brought to shore along with what is believed to be human remains. We will talk to a deep sea expert on here -- on where that investigation goes from here.




PHILIP: The U.S. Coast Guard says that they've recovered what they call presumed human remains from the seafloor of the Titan site. And it comes on the same day that huge pieces of that doomed Titan submersible were unloaded onto a Canadian pier.

And it's been nearly a week since authorities confirmed the tragic implosion of that sub with five people on board. The debris will now be headed to investigators who will try to uncover more about how this disaster unfolded.

Joining me now is deep-sea explorer and oceanographer David Gallo. David, thank you for joining us again here. This is grim news here from the Coast Guard. How will investigators now use what they found to put together the picture of what actually went wrong here with this sub?

DAVID GALLO, SR. ADVISER, RMS TITANIC INC.: Well Abby, very similar to an air traffic and air crash study investigation. And one way we like to think about it is to treat it as a crime scene. So with the robots, cameras, lasers, LIDAR make a complete map of that site on the bottom of the ocean, because it's not very easily accessible. So you want to be able to take that back to the laboratory to the forensic experts.

Second part, of course, is to choose which to pick, what to pick and what not to pick. Pelagic and the Coast Guard have done an incredible job in my opinion in such a short time. You saw very big pieces obviously in those images, but they probably were also picking up things as tiny as a memory card, a chip, because who knows what's on that. So there's probably an awful lot of bits and pieces that are going to have to be analyzed. And I'm not sure there are four countries involved where that will be. I'm guessing it will be in the U.S., but I don't know that for sure.

PHILIP: Yeah, it's interesting to see how large those pieces were. You know, when people hear about an explosion, they know what to expect. But when we talk about an implosion, what kind of evidence really is left there from the inside of that sub?

GALLO: I would have guessed not a lot. I thought, including human remains. I thought everything would be pretty well vaporized because normally what we think about is a sphere that you're in a capsule and then it collapses inwards, which generates incredible amount of heat that it explodes outwards. In this case, it's a tube. So if you collapse the inside of the tube, you may push things out -- out the sides and the front and the back. And what you're looking at there, that ring, and earlier it was the nose cone where the portal would be. So, -- and I see plenty of wiring and things like that. So there probably is an awful lot there for them to go on rather than just tiny, tiny bits of fragments.

PHILIP: Yeah --

GALLO: and we see all these (inaudible) cables. Yeah.

PHILIP: Yeah, that's -- that is really interesting to look at that photo where you see the basically, I mean, the wiring very much intact, which is a little surprising to see. So, David, I mean, look, as we go forward here, there's going to be a question of what went wrong. But then also, how does this never happen again? What safety changes do you want to see going forward to prevent something like this from happening?

GALLO: That's a great question, Abby. And, you know, this is something that we always knew could happen in the business for 40 years, we expected that something like this could happen. And here it finally did happen. And we're all kind of surprised by it.

You know, so, so committees will start taking a very close look at the entire process was the design proper, proper was the operations, the techniques was all that proper, properly done. And then they'll start refining it. I am assuming it's going to take quite a bit of time to get that taken care of.


But you know what? You could have all the certificates on the planet. You can have a stamp of approval from the pope that doesn't guarantee that you're going to have a safe trip to the bottom. The thing you want to do is minimize risk. There's always risk. You've got to minimize it.

PHILIP: And the ocean, as many people have said to us, is an incredibly, the deep sea, incredibly unforgiving place. David Gallo, thank you very much for joining us as always.

And just ahead for us, a major health scare for a pop legend, Madonna. She developed a serious bacterial infection, which sent her to the ICU for a few days. We'll have the latest on her condition coming up next.



PHILIP: A major health scare for Madonna. The pop legend's manager released a statement saying that on Saturday, June 24th, Madonna developed a serious bacterial infection which led to a several day stay in the ICU. Her health is improving, however, she is still under medical care. A full recovery is expected. And a source is now saying that she is out of the ICU, but the situation forcing Madonna, who is 64 years old, postpone her latest tour which is set to kick off next month. And joining me now is CNN medical analyst Dr. Jorge Rodriguez. He's an

internal medicine and viral specialist. So Dr. Rodriguez, this was really stunning, I think probably to a lot of people. The ICU is very serious, but the ICU for several days, what does that tell you? What do you think happened here?

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, Abby, I think first of all, I also heard reports that she had been intubated, which meant that she had a tube in her mouth to her lungs breathing for her. So that in and of itself is very serious. You just don't do that as a precautionary measure.

So that tells me that Madonna had probably a very disseminated infection. It could have been an ammonia, which is an infection of the lungs, which caused her not to be able to breathe. And either when they called the paramedics, and I hope they did, or when she got to the emergency room, they immediately started breathing for her and intubating her. Again, that's supposition because we know very little.

The fact that she was in the ICU and they've already identified this as a bacterial infection, also leads me to believe that she may have been septic, which means that some sort of bacterial infection overwhelmed her bloodstream and also lowered her blood pressure, maybe even, you know, just stopped her breathing temporarily or slowed it down. So yes, it sounds like it was very and still could be very serious.

PHILIP: Yeah, absolutely. We don't know a whole lot about her medical history, but we do know that she previously underwent a hip replacement surgery back in 2020 due to an injury during her last tour. So what kind of role could that play in her health right now?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, that could play a big role. And this is coming from someone who he himself, me, had an artificial knee put in a couple of years ago. If you don't have any foreign body in your body, meaning if you don't have any metal, usually your body's own tissue fights off a bacterial infection.

However, if you have some inanimate substance in your body, there's no tissue with white blood cells to fight off infection. So a titanium hip, a titanium knee, even an artificial valve in your heart is, well, it's a playground for bacteria because they can just start reproducing there.

So the fact that she had probably or maybe a very disseminated bacterial infection and the fact that she has an artificial hip raises the dangerous stakes, I think considerably in her case. It may have nothing to do with it because she's three years out and usually the danger zone is two years, but it also may be what's going on. So again, we don't know.

PHILIP: That's a very interesting observation there. So she had this 84 performance tour scheduled over the course of about six months across North America, Europe, the United Kingdom. Madonna is also 64 years old. That, I think, would be ambitious, even under the most healthy of circumstances. After experiencing something like this, what do you think are the prospects for that tour?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, I think again, we don't know everything, but if they're even mentioning it, this is not a subtle little, you know, walking pneumonia. There's something more serious going on here. And probably it's a tour that may very well be canceled completely, especially if there's a serious infection. If this infection has gotten into the bones, has gotten into the prosthetic hip, it may take months of continued antibiotics to completely get rid of it.

So we'll know hopefully more in the next few weeks if she dares, you know, or wants to share it, not dares to share it. And obviously we wish her well, but this could be something very serious. And the most important thing obviously is her health, not her tour and all the exhaustion that comes with it, which would tend to make things worse.

PHILIP: And we do certainly all wish her well. I mean, Madonna is a major legend for so many people. Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, thank you very much for sharing your expertise on all of that.

RODRIGUEZ: Thank you, Abby.

PHILIP: And it is a question that a lot of people are now asking, especially in Silicon Valley. Will tech titans Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg actually get into a ring and fight each other? That's next.




PHILIP: It's a matchup for the ages, Silicon Valley heavyweights Elon Musk versus Mark Zuckerberg in hand-to-hand combat. And if you think we're joking, trust me, we are not. Check out these pictures.

That is Elon Musk training with podcaster Lex Fridman. Fridman trained in mixed martial arts and says of Musk, and I quote, "I'm extremely impressed with his strength, power and skill on the feet and on the ground."

And for those of you who had your money on Zuckerberg, on the other hand, he's a known fighter and somebody who has also trained with Lex Fridman, you might want to reconsider. That is, if the fight even happens, because Elon Musk's mama, Maye Musk, is checking in, and she says that she is canceling the fight. So, I guess we will just have to wait and see if this one even happens.