Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Tonight

Fulton County Grand Jury Selection Begins; Election Workers Say Rudy Giuliani Defamed Them; What's Ron DeSantis's Biggest Hurdle?; Putin "Meeting" With Wagner Boss Causes Questions; How Do You Catch a Survivalist On The Run?; Senate Hears Investigation Of PGA Tour/LIV Golf; Trump Lawyers Ask To Withdraw Order Setting Trial And Postpone Setting New Trial Date. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired July 10, 2023 - 23:00   ET



REP. GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): Wow, this is strange.


LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, George Santos apparently likes comparing himself to others. Well, the embattled lawmaker facing charges while he has a new comparison. Here he is responding to Mitt Romney, telling him he didn't belong at the State of the Union.


SANTOS: Well, guess what? Rosa Parks didn't sit in the back and neither am I going to sit in the back. That's just the reality of how it works. Mitt Romney lives in a very different world, and he needs to buckle up because it's going to be a bumpy ride for him.


COATES: Right. I'm just going to leave that for you right there. John Berman, sometimes silence says everything, my friend.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it does. Thank you so much, Laura Coates.

So, the curtain opens on the final act in the case against Donald Trump, the Georgia addition. Just as Rudy Giuliani takes center stage, hair and makeup optional as always.

I'm John Berman, and this is "CNN Tonight" or CNN very nearly tomorrow as I like to call it. And tomorrow, which is now just minutes away, is a milestone in one of the key investigations into former President Trump. Tomorrow, selection begins for the grand jury which seems likely to vote on whether to indict Trump in Fulton County, Georgia for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election there. This was the call Trump made to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to find votes there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): So, look, all I want to do is this: I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.


BERMAN: So, this new grand jury could move well beyond that phone call and expand charges into the realm of fraud and racketeering. It follows an investigation from a special grand jury that did not have power to indict but sounds like it would have if it could have.

They wrote -- quote -- "A majority of the grand jury believes that perjury may have been committed by one or more witnesses testifying before it. The grand jury recommends that the district attorney seek appropriate indictments for such crimes where the evidence is compelling."

This as we are learning that as soon as tomorrow, Rudy Giuliani could reach a resolution in a dispute with former Georgia election workers, Wandrea "Shaye" Moss and Rudy Freeman, after they accused him of defaming them after the 2020 election.


RUBY FREEMAN, FORMER GEORIA ELECTION WORKER: I've lost my name, and I've lost my reputation. I have lost my sense of security all because a group of people start with number 45 and his ally, Rudy Giuliani, decided to scapegoat me and my daughter, Shaye, to push their own lies about the presidential election was stolen.


BERMAN: A lot of reality seems to be raining down on Giuliani, including the special counsel asking him questions and a Washington, D.C. panel recommending he be disbarred for his actions after the 2020 election. On the plus side, he is available on cameo for 325 for a personal video and 975 for a live video call. About the same as Dog the Bounty Hunter and the guy who played Newman on "Seinfeld."

Let's start, though, with the Georgia grand jury. CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig is with me now. Great to see you. This grand jury, the selection begins tomorrow. What exactly does that mean? What will they be doing?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, in a word, indict. Well, they have the power to indict. Let's be clear about that. We already know that this case went to a special grand, a separate body. They concluded their work several months ago. But all they were able to do is issue this written report. We've seen some of it. You quoted some of it earlier.

This is now a regular grand jury, a real grand jury per se, and what will happen at the end of the presentation, what will happen over the next several weeks is Fani Willis and her team will present evidence to this grand jury. It's a one-sided process. They will present their evidence. The only people allowed in a grand jury room are the grand jurors, the witnesses, the prosecutors and just staff. There is no defense presence of any significance. And at the end of it, if Fani Will asks for an indictment, they will vote on it, the vast majority of times that does result in an indictment. So, that's where we are in this process.

BERMAN: Fani Willis, the Fulton County grand -- the Fulton County district attorney has telegraphed that something is coming down or coming up as the case maybe with an indictment as soon as three weeks from now. She asked for special security and said that people are going to be working from home. What are the range of charges that are possible here?

HONIG: So, I think the most straightforward charges here are election interference, and I think the key piece of evidence will be that call that you played before, the infamous call to Brad Raffensperger.


Let's remember, though, there was more to the effort than that. There were also other calls placed to an investigator, to the governor. They tried to get state legislators from Georgia involved. So, we could see state, under the state of Georgia, state election interference charges.

We also have seen reporting that there could be racketeering charges. What that means, prosecutors have to prove it, there is an ongoing criminal enterprise.

Now, prosecutors get to the side how we are going to define this. It could be the Trump Organization, not the business entity but the Trump campaign, the Trump White House, and then you have to show that that criminal organization engaged in what we call a pattern of racketeering activity, meaning two or more interconnected crimes. That's a powerful tool for prosecutors.

They also have to prove more, but it can really be a powerful tool in front of a jury.

BERMAN: You used it when prosecuting.

HONIG: All the time. All the time, yeah. And it is most ideally fit for the mob. But it can and has been applied to labor unions, to corrupt city governments, to corrupt officials, to corrupt businesses. So, there are broader applications available

BERMAN: So, Fulton County D.A. Fani Willis is not the only one sort of sniffing around this case.

HONIG: Yeah.

BERMAN: The special counsel, Jack Smith, investigating January 6th has talked to some of these people. We know he talked to Brad Raffensperger.

HONIG: Yeah.

BERMAN: So, what is the overlap or possible conflict there?

HONIG: It seems like there is quite a bit of overlap. Jack Smith's investigation is broader because he's not limited just to Georgia. But then again, Fani Willis has gone beyond Georgia. We know, for example, she spoke to Cassidy Hutchinson. Cassidy Hutchinson never stepped foot in Georgia.

One of the interesting questions that I think we need to watch in the next few days and weeks is, who gets there first? Is DOJ going to charge January 6th to Donald Trump or January 6 Committee at all or first or will Fani Willis? I think it is quite clear she intends to charge Donald Trump. And if one gets there first, what does the other one do? Does the other one back off?

BERMAN: If Jack Smith gets there first, what happens?

HONIG: Well, if Jack Smith charges January 6 first, I think Fani Willis needs to take a very careful look at her case and decide, is there any need to have an additional state prosecution that will really cover much of the same ground that Jack Smith will cover less ground, actually?

Do we need -- all of us need a fourth indictment of Donald Trump that will cover much of the same ground, that will be brought by an elected Democratic county-level DI or is she just going to say, let's let DOJ do its job? They sort of have a more definitive position here and a little more institutional authority.

BERMAN: And that would your suggestion if she asked.

HONIG: I will likely be suggesting, but I think if I was Fani Willis's adviser, I'd say, let's think about this twice.

BERMAN: Elie Honig, great to see you. Thank you so much, counselor.

HONIG: All right.

BERMAN: So, the legal issues are obviously not confined to the former president. His former attorney, Rudy Giuliani, is negotiating this possible resolution to his ongoing court dispute with the Georgia election workers, Wandrea "Shaye" Moss, and her mother, Ruby Freeman. They accused Giuliani of scapegoating them in a fabricated effort to undermine how votes were counted in Georgia in 2020 with statements like this.


RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Ruby Freeman and Shaye Freeman Moss and one other gentleman quite obviously surreptitiously passing around USB ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine.


BERMAN: And this is the type of thing he may be reaching a settlement with them over. With us now is Sarah Matthews, who was Trump White House deputy press secretary, who also testified to the January 6 Committee like those two women did. Thanks so much for being with us. What is your view on this settlement, the idea that Giuliani may have to pay them for what he said about them?

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: I 'm happy to see accountability happen because it is a shame for what Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss have been put through because they should never have had to go through this in the first place.

The fact of the matter is that one man, Donald Trump, could not accept the fact that he lost the 2020 election, and so he concocted conspiracy theories with his associates like Giuliani to try to overturn the election and try to put the target and blame on other folks. We saw that happen with Mike Pence and them trying to say that he could send the electors back to the states. And we saw that in this situation with these two women.

And it is really sad because it has real world consequences, these election lies. You know, these two women were the target of death threats. They were found to be on the key list from an Oath Keeper. They face harassment online. It's really sad. And so, I hope that the settlement helps get some peace of mind, and I'm happy to see accountability take place.

BERMAN: How do you feel about the accountability that has been delivered on other fronts until now? Do you think there has been real accountability for January 6th?

MATTHEWS: I don't think that there has been real accountability for January 6th. You know, I think that the work of the January 6th Committee was really to help shed light on just what transpired in the lead up to that day and then Donald Trump's failure to act that day.


But is really disappointing to see many in my party choose to ignore the facts of that day for political expediency because they just want to whitewash the events of that day and move on from it. And I get that people are tired of talking about these things, but we cannot ignore the fact of what happened.

And so, you know, it will be curious to see what happens with the DOJ investigation and what comes of that. Obviously, Donald Trump has already been indicted twice for two other matters but could face potential indictment there with that case. And so, there could be some kind of accountability.

BERMAN: Let me ask you this. We were talking about Rudy Giuliani and this deal he is reaching. How was Giuliani viewed inside the White House among staffers there? I saw a little small come across your face there. What did that smile just mean?

MATTHEWS: No, I think that a lot of people were very concerned with the advice that Donald Trump was receiving towards the end of his tenure at the White House from folks like Giuliani and Sidney Powell because there were folks in the White House who were telling Trump that he lost the 2020 election. He obviously did not want to listen to them because they were not telling him what he wanted to hear.

And so, he started tuning them out and started listening to folks who were telling him what he wanted to hear. And so -- I mean, personally, I did not have any interactions with Giuliani, but I think that myself and some of my other colleagues found him to be a bit of a joke because of what he was pushing and, you know, obviously, Trump was buying it, though.

BERMAN: He's certainly in the middle of whole bunch of different issues right now. Thanks so much for being with us. Have a great night.

MATTHEWS: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, what is the biggest problem for Ron DeSantis right now? Is it A, the media, B, Mexico, C, Donald Trump, or D, Ron DeSantis? The answer, and a TV first, your threads read life when we come back.




BERMAN: Tonight, does Ron DeSantis have a Ron DeSantis problem? I'm not saying he definitively has any problem at all. He is firmly in second place to both national republican primary polls and just about every early voting state poll, which is pretty good by some considerations.

But over on Fox, they keep asking him why he is not doing better than that, suggesting it is a bit of -- well, problem. This was his answer this morning.


GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I think the fact that I 'm the one that's targeted by the media, by the left, even by the president of Mexico, is because people know that I would beat Biden and they I know that I will actually deliver on all these issues and beat the Democrats at the border, beat them on things like ESG, beat them on things like crime, and they don't want to see that.


BERMAN: So, he certainly doesn't have a remembering his lines problem because he gave almost the exact same response last Friday on Fox.


DESANTIS: Well, I think that if you look at the people like the corporate media, who are they going after? Who do they not want to be the nominee? They're going after me. Who is the president of Mexico attacking because he knows we'll be strong on the border to hold him accountable in the cartels? He's going after me.


BERMAN: So, the left, the media, the president of Mexico, they are the reasons he is not doing better, he says, even with his big money campaign and his heavy campaign scheduling and time spent in Iowa, New Hampshire and so on. It is not me, it's you, media, and Democrats in Mexico. It's like the opposite of every time I was dumped in high school. Instead of it's not you, it's me, it is it's not me, it's Mexico.

Now, I 'm not sure whether it work in high school, but does it work in presidential campaigns?

Let's put it to our experts. CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten and Chris Whipple, the author of "The Fight of His Life." Gentlemen, if you allow me, I want to do this in multiple choice form. Okay? The biggest hurdle for Ron DeSantis right now is A, the media, B, Mexico --


C, Donald Trump, D, Ron DeSantis? Harry?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Uh, can I split it between C and D?


ENTEN: Great. Your show, but I guess my rules. Look, here is the situation as far as I 'm concerned. Number one, you look at Ron DeSantis's very favorable rating. Those very strongly correlate historically speaking with how you do in the primaries. We have seen his very strongly favorable ratings drop. Okay? So, he has a problem. Voters, republican voters, in particular, like him less than they used to.

But at the same time, obviously, Donald Trump has gone up in the polls. It's not just that DeSantis has fallen. Trump has gone up. It's that Trump campaign has started. All of a sudden, Trump picked up momentum. He has done well because of the indictments. Republican voters apparently like that. So, I would split my answer between C and D.

BERMAN: Chris, are you going to play by the rules and pick one?

CHRIS WHIPPLE, AUTHOR: ALLACE, BROADCAST JOURNALIST: Well, I think DeSantis has a DeSantis problem. People do not like the guy. He may be the worst national retail politician since Michael Bloomberg, except Bloomberg was more likable and relatable.

You know, he may have cracked the code in Florida, running against the Disney Corporation and (INAUDIBLE) culture wars, but he clearly just as tone deaf on the national stage. He is out of his depth and that's why he has been sinking like a stone.

BERMAN: Is it correctable, though?

WHIPPLE: I don't this so. I mean, I think Ron DeSantis is stuck with Ron DeSantis, and I don't think you can -- you can do a personality transplant and somehow recover.

BERMAN: A long time ago. I will say that. All right, I want to shift gears, if I can now, to an article that came out in Axios this morning that suggested and reported that President Biden has a bad temper.


Look at that. "Old yeller: Biden's private fury" was the article. And here is quote from it. But he yells at his staff. And the president's admonitions include: God dammit, how the "F" don't you know thus? Don't effing B.S. me, get the "F" out of here. And aides say of Biden doesn't yell at you, it could be a sign he doesn't respect you.

Now, I should note that Chris was quoted in this article. But I'm going to ask this in multiple choice form also. Is Biden's temper a sign of A, mistreating his staff, B, respect for his staff as his aide suggests, C, his age. or D, an issue that is not an issue.

WHIPPLE: Let me take it in to parts. First of all, Biden has a temper, but I don't think he has a temper problem. I wrote about this in my book, "The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden's White House." One of the first things that Jen Psaki said to the president was, you know, I won't feel like I 'm a part of the inner circle until you yell at me, and she didn't have to wait long.

Biden has a short fuse. It triggered by sloppy staff work. Sometimes, by bad decisions when he doesn't have good options. But look, I think that you can argue that if a president isn't losing it once in a while, he is not paying attention, he is not doing his job.

So, I don't see that as a problem. The problem for Biden in the reelection is his age. He's 80 years. He walks like a zombie. That is not his fault. That is because of arthritis. Cognitively, he is fine. I know this having spoken to all of his inner circle for the last two years.

But that doesn't matter to a substantial portion of voters, many of them Democrats, who in a perfect world would like a younger, more vigorous president. And the problem is we are not in a perfect world.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, I yell at you because I respect you so much.

ENTEN: Oh, thank you so much. Look, you don't yell at me. I don't yell at you. I think I agree with you, right? I think he has -- it is very clear he has a temper, but I don't think the reason that he would lose reelection is because of a -- quote, unquote -- "temper problem."

We have had this discussion before, John, right, when Biden's poll numbers began to drop during 2021 and were like, okay, is it the economy? What is exactly going on? And I think you said it, which is, I'm not sure even if the economy does improve, which it is doing, right? We've seen inflation drop over the last few months over the last year. That would necessarily improve Biden's numbers and it hasn't.

I think his real issue is his age. A lot of voters thought of him as a caretaker. They do not like the idea of two candidates facing off against each other who are north of 75, one who is going to be north of 80 come election day. And so, I think the age is his real issue at this point.

BERMAN: It sounds like both of you are saying if Ron DeSantis has a Ron DeSantis problem, Joe Biden might have a Joe Biden problem.

ENTEN: Very nicely put.

BERMAN: Self-awareness is key for political success.

WHIPPLE: The irony here, of course, is that in the world that we are facing right now, confronting from Ukraine to all of the other problems that experience ought to Trump youth but evidently not in the polls.

BERMAN: Also, maybe a nice hand. Trump is all of it. And I ask that because President Biden was photographed on the beach over the weekend shirtless. He was at the beach. There he is. He is doing what we all do at the beach there.

My question, because I often think in politics, nothing happens accidentally. I don't think it is accident that Joe Biden showed up shirtless in the beach. Was this picture designed for A, Donald Trump --


B, Robert Kennedy, Jr., his Democratic primary opponent who does pushup shirtless sometimes, C, voters, or D, Vladimir Putin who himself appears shirtless in public sometimes?

WHIPPLE: How about none of the above? I mean, this one is really above my pay grade job. I mean, I think that this is one I'd have to throw to Jeff Zients, the White House chief of staff. What in the world are you thinking?

BERMAN: Harry?

ENTEN: I would say E, it was for me, because that is something I wish to attain and achieve by the time I'm 80 years old.

BERMAN: All right, Harry, I promise the viewers that this would be the first television broadcast where we read threads out loud.

ENTEN: Okay.

BERMAN: I asked people to send us threads and I would read them. So, I'm going to read you or ask you one of the thread questions that was sent to me by real Matt Cooper who asked, what is the job like for anchors when they are not on the air?

ENTEN: I think that is a beautiful job because you get to meet people like me. And meeting you has been one of my highlights at CNN.

BERMAN: We hang out backstage talking about polling. That is how fun we are.

ENTEN: And we're a fun group. Come and join us one time. Maybe we could hold a raffle.

BERMAN: Harry and Chris Whipple, great to see you. Thank you very much.

WHIPPLE: Thanks.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, a band of mercenary seizes a major city, marches towards the capital, and says they want to oust the defense minister. What does Vladimir Putin do about it? He meets with him to discuss -- quote -- "further employment options."


BERMAN: Should we believe that? I'll ask the CIA's former chief of Russia operations, next.


BERMAN: Tonight, the shocking news or at least the shocking claim that Vladimir Putin met with the man who led the armed revolt against Russia. He met with him five days after the aborted insurrection. The Kremlin claims that Putin held a three-hour meeting with Yevgeny Prigozhin and other members of the Wagner Group and discussed -- quote -- "further employment options."

Further employment options for the man who was marching troops, at least for a time, towards Moscow.


What kind of employment options are available for someone whose troops shot down Russian helicopters and shook the foundations of Putin's 20- year grip on power? What would that job listing look like? Seeking middle aged men with experience in global mercenary work, treason, and catering. Must love dogs, and have no commitments that require being alive.

That last point gets to the central question surrounding Yevgeny Prigozhin at this moment. Why exactly is he alive? The idea of a meeting after the revolt suggests that the whole seizing of Russian city and marching toward Moscow thing is somehow water under the bridge.

Putin doesn't seem like much of a water under the bridge kind of guy. He seems more like a throw you from the bridge kind of guy. That is if there's no window available. There is actually a word that has come to symbolize this type of activity in Russia. Defenestration, a great word for puzzles, a sinister word for survival and things like that.

It describes the action that has befallen a surprising of number of Russians in recent years of plummeting mysteriously from open windows. This happened to all kinds of people. So, why not the guy who tried to foment an uprising. How long can Prigozhin live in a windowless world? Or maybe he has it.

What do we know for sure about his itinerary since he relented? First, we were told he went to Belarus, then we were told he was in St. Petersburg, now we're told there was a side trip at Putin's place. We were told he went to all those places but we never actually saw him at any of them. We haven't seen him at all. No disrespect, but why can't this be some weekend at Bernie's level plot where they keep carting around the idea of Prigozhin?


UNKNOWN: Yes, but he is dead. He is not around. Anybody will mourn.

UNKNOWN: Yeah, I know that. You know that. Nobody else knows that.


BERMAN: You know, at least in the movie, they had a body. Here, we haven't seen anything, just an itinerary, which raises so many questions that get to the heart of Putin's grip on power.

So, I want to turn to former CIA chief of Russia operation, Steve Hall. Steve, great to see you. Why is Prigozhin alive if he is?

STEVE HALL, FORMER CIA CHIEF OF RUSSIA OPERATION: You know, there's so much that we don't know. You're absolutely right. You mentioned things like claims and data. These are things that political scientists really want. They want data points, right, because how can you analyze something accurately if you don't have any data points? But we haven't seen Prigozhin in -- I can't remember how long how.

You know, it entirely -- it would make sense that he wouldn't be alive anymore based on all of the things that you went through in the lead up to this, all of which is true. We don't even know if the meeting happened between Prigozhin and Putin and 25 of Prigozhin's closest friends. We just don't know.

But I can tell you, one of the reasons that they're saying things like the meeting happened and they're saying the type of things that they're sending is because they're worried about him. They're very worried about him. And there's two distinct groups of people who are concerned that they're worried about. It is the Russian population and it's these elites that surround Putin.

The Russian population is why you're seeing things like oh, yes, they met, everything is fine. You know, you hear good things about it. There is a plan. They're worried that Prigozhin might actually have a grip on some of -- you know, how Russians feel about the war. That concerns them. Of course, Putin always has to be worried about the people who surround him. So, the reason that we're hearing about prigozhin is because they're still worried about him themselves.

BERMAN: So, you're not completely dismissing (inaudible) theory which is that they're carting around this idea of Prigozhin. I mean, how long can they do that until we actually see him?

HALL: Well, I think that they are playing for the long term here. I think what's actually going to happen to Prigozhin, and again, this gets back to their fear of what he might mean to the Russian people, because as we've seen before, it takes a lot to get the Russian people into the streets and actually do something. Sometimes, they'll come out and do protest but actually overthrow a government which, by the way, Putin himself mentioned in response to Prigozhin's activities. He mentioned the 1970 revolution.

So, they're worried about that. They've got to be concerned about that. How long is this going to go on? I think what they're going to do is if they had just killed him outright or it comes to light that he has been killed, I think what would happen is that they don't want to risk that upsurge of popular support for him.

I think they're going to slowly move in. You've already seen that they raided his apartment. They found all of these millions of dollars, rubles and stuff. They're going to try to paint him as corrupt. I think he is going to end up in a prison someplace or worse for the long haul. So, they're going to work to get him out, but it's just going to take some time.

BERMAN: All right, Steve Hall, I appreciate you being with us. I really do. I just want to know when we're going to see the guy if he really still exists.


Great to see you.

HAL: Good to be with you, John.

BERMAN: So how do you catch a survivalist on the run? That is what authorities are asking themselves with the murder suspect on the lam somewhere deep in the Pennsylvania woods tonight.


BERMAN: An escaped inmate who police believe may be armed and is certainly dangerous is on the run tonight and believed to be somewhere in the woods around Warren, Pennsylvania. Michael Charles Burham, a murder suspect who was also being held on arson and burglary charges, escaped from jail Friday in the time-honored method from every jailbreak movie you have ever seen using tight-up bedsheets to climb down from the roof.


Police say they have found what may be his campsites. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE BIVENS, LIEUTENANT COLONEL, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: We do believe that he is getting some assistance. From where or what that type of assistance is, I'm not prepared to comment on. But as I previously indicated, we are investigating that, and we are prepared to prosecute anyone who does offer him assistance.


BERMAN: Police say Burham is a self-taught survivalist with military experience. What exactly does that mean? How long can a person survive on various en routes? And what special skills will it take to capture a man who can do that and he was nothing to lose?

Let's bring in our chief law enforcement analyst John Miller. Sir, great to see you. So, Pennsylvania State Police say they believe he has it, why?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Because these campsites seemed to be stocked ahead of time. That suggests that he escapes the prison, that he goes on the run, and that he knows where he's going to these designated locations in the woods where food and supplies and rations are waiting for him.

BERMAN: What fascinates so many people about manhunts is how does a person evade law enforcement. How can a person evade law enforcement? I mean, I talked to so many experts, and they say, one, if you ask help, you can last a longer time on the lam. On the other hand, if he has help, there are more people to question. What is the truth there?

MILLER: So, both. Both let's go away from the generic manhunt directly into the prison escape manhunt. So, in that case, you're assuming that there's going to be help on the outside and you start to look for that. And you start to look for that by saying, all right, let's begin with who's on his visitor's list. These are the people who have been coming and talking to him.

Let us go over and see, do we have those on tape or those not taped visits? Who is on his phone call list? Who's he making those collect calls from the jail? Do we have those on tape?

Let us go back over the tapes and listen to them twice. Wants to see, here's the escape plan. But then once more likely to see, is there coded language that now that we see he is out of institution, we can decode to say, what does that suggest. So that's the beginning because those people are out of jail.

And when you lean on those people and you start to cut off his continued help with the idea of, he's out of jail, on the run now, but if we figured out you helped him, you're going to be back in jail with him. That could be a powerful argument.

BERMAN: The police say they're going to try to force him to make a mistake. What are the kinds of the mistakes that fugitives like this, you know, who do the jail break, what are the mistakes they make?

MILLER: They're going to try to close off that circle if there is help. If that's one person or three people, they're going to put pressure on that so that either has to stick his head off to reach out to one of those people and they'll be waiting, or they will try to eliminate those people from his circle and them make him do something like I've got to steal a car, I've got to break into a house and get some food or a weapon or keys to a car. They've got to force him out of the woods.

Remember, Eric Robert Rudolf --

BERMAN: That's the name that always comes up. I mean, typically, people get caught. The one who didn't or at least not quickly was Eric Robert Rudolf.

MILLER: And he was not just a survivalist. So, Eric Robert Rudolf, as you know, was the Olympic Park bomber from the Olympics, but he also bombed gay clubs, abortion clinics. He was a serial bomber who, as police were closing in, ran into the Nantahala National Forest which is bigger some states combined and disappeared for like five years, living off the land, getting some help, they think, from the outside. He finally wandered down the garbage picking and was caught.

Do we see Mr. Burham living in the Allegheny National Forest for five years? I don't think he has Eric Rudolph's skills. I think they're going to put a lot of pressure and technology that didn't exist back then around him.

BERMAN: That's a good point. All right, John Miller, great to see you. Thank you very much.

PGA Tour leaders in the hot seat just hours from now facing Congress over their deal with Saudi Arabia's LIV Golf. Bob Costas tells us what to watch for, next.




BERMAN: Northwestern University announced today the school has fired football coach Pat Fitzgerald. This firing happened at the wake of allegations of hazing in the Wild Cats football program. CNN has reached out to Fitzgerald for comment. We have yet to hear back. But he has previously said he was not aware of the alleged hazing.

Now, to tomorrow's controversy, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on investigations will be examining the proposed merger between the PGA Tour and the Saudi-backed LIV Golf Tour. On the eve of that hearing, the PGA Tour confirmed that former AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson is stepping down from the PGA Tour's policy board, citing serious concerns over the deal with the Saudi Arabian public investment fund.

Stephenson discussed the deal in his resignation letter, saying it -- quote -- "is not one that I can objectively evaluate or in good conscience support, particularly in light of the U.S. intelligence report concerning Jamal Khashoggi in 2018."

With me now is CNN contributor Bob Costas. Bob, great to see you. This hearing tomorrow before the Senate, who is not going that should be?

BOB COSTAS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Jay Monahan, the commissioner of the PGA Tour who has taken about a month off for unspecified health concern, says he will be back on the job next week and that he would have appeared had they postponed the hearing.


They declined to do that. So, Monahan is missing. Jay Monahan is missing. Greg Norman who was at least the figurehead of LIV Golf, famous golfer in his own right, will not be there. And Yasir al- Rumayyan, who was the primary representative of the private investment fund, the Saudi private investment fund, he, like Norman, claimed that he has scheduling problem but was willing to appear at a subsequent hearing. So, this is probably just the beginning.

BERMAN: It is just the beginning. And they will get started and ask important questions. But one question that LIV Gold and the PGA Tour basically ask behind the scenes is, hey, if Joe Biden, if the president of the United States can go to Saudi Arabia and fist bump Mohammed bin-Salman, why can't we play golf together?

COSTAS: Well, I think the concern is that you are better qualified to get to this next point than I, but there are certain concessions, compromises, relationships that grow out of real politic as opposed to something that is quite possibly an exercise in sports washing where everyone involved is whether willingly or unwillingly perhaps a public relations figure and ambassador for the Saudi regime.

That was more the case when it was strictly LIV Golf, when Phil Mickelson, Dustin Johnson, and Brooks Koepka and others went over there. Now, one of the big questions is, how much influence will the Saudis have when this merger is complete? They are playing out what is likely the last season of LIV Golf now. In truth, nobody really cares about the outcome of LIV Golf tournaments. They care about it from a political standpoint.

They have to figure out how those who defected, Phil Mickelson and others, come back. There has to be some penalty involved. They can't just come back because those who remain loyal like Tiger Woods and Rory Mcllroy and others are going to be ticked off by that. Those guys pocketed the money. Now, they come back. So, they got to work all that stuff out.

So, perhaps it will be less obviously a connection to the Saudis once that has all been arranged. And this deal still has many particulars that are yet to be put in place. But the idea is that this is, as Richard Blumenthal, who is one of the heads of the committees along with Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, Blumenthal, the Democrat from Connecticut, puts it, this is a beloved American institution.

And the players and fans don't want to feel, at least many of them, against their will complicit in something that elevates a regime which many people find objectionable.

So, that is going to be one of the questions. Monahan, the PGA Tour says that there will be a supermajority of PGA representatives on the policy board so that the Saudis will not be the ones who control the sensibility and the direction of it. It will be something that's completely recognizable in a traditional sense to American golf fans.

There's another question, which is an antitrust question, and the PGA Tour enjoys tax exempt status. They'll be looking into that as well beginning tomorrow.

BERMAN: Bob Costas, always an honor to speak with you. Sarah, we have to cut it short because we do have some breaking news just in. Tomorrow's breaking news, really tonight, this just, former President Donald Trump's lawyers, in a new filing, are requesting that the court, this is the federal court hearing the Mar-a-Lago documents case, the one for which former President Trump has been indicted, they are requesting a consideration of any rescheduled trial date.

Let me be clearer about this. They're asking that the trial be postponed until after the election. Let me read you a direct quote from this. "Proceeding to trial during the pendency of a presidential election cycle wherein opposing candidates are effectively, if not literally, directly adverse to one another in this action will create extraordinary challenges in the jury selection process and limit the defendant's ability to secure a fair and impartial education. The court should therefore withdraw the court order setting trial and postpone any consideration of a new trial date.

John Miller is here with me now. Wait till after the election, an election he could win or he could pardon himself.

MILLER: So, we saw this coming. We saw this coming with Walt Nauta's, Donald Trump's codefendant, lawyers saying, you know, we want to postpone his arraignment, we want to postpone it again. They have been asking for delays. And it is not a foreign tactic to Trump in legal proceedings both presidential and prior to that which is to drag these things out. However, there is this idea and there is two folds to this.


One, that if you get within 60 days of the election, DOJ policy is that you don't go forward with criminal charges that are going to affect the elections which may be why Jack Smith has been saying in his moving papers that it is the opposite of the public interest to have delays. We need to get through this case now. So, we don't bump up against that.

There are many in DOJ who believe there is a 60-day ruling. If fact, the 60-day rule is kind of a standard that was kind of made up, that they've gone by as a guideline. But it's not a rule and it is not law. So, you see these cross tensions here.

BERMAN: And Judge Aileen Cannon, the federal judge, is the person who will decide this ultimately.

MILLER: That's right. I mean, that's in her decision initially. And I think that when you look at Jack Smith's interest and Donald Trump's interest, everybody is speaking towards their goal here.

BERMAN: All right.

MILLER: There is the second fold which is that there is a scenario where Donald Trump could be elected president, and this is untested constitutionally, it would be at first, and pardon himself of all federal criminal charges which might leave, depending on who Georgia indicts and the New York district attorney's case goes forward, state charges that he can't pardon himself from. So, there's a lot to unfold here.

BERMAN: A lot to unfold. No doubt it will be in the news tomorrow but you heard it here first. John Miller, thank you very much.

Before we go, I promise more threads. Here's a thread from JulieK958. He writes, I would love it if every anchor signed off their shows with something positive, something that a person is looking forward to. Well, how about this? That's all for tonight. I'll be here all week. What could possibly go wrong?


Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.