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U.S. House Judiciary Committee to Debate before Vote; White House Announces Fresh Sanctions on Tehran; Brian Hook, U.S. Special Representative, Discusses New Sanctions on Iran; Aramco Shares Jump on Debut; Pentagon Halts Operational Training for Saudi Students; Crisis in Lebanon; Myanmar Faces Accusations of Genocide; UNHCR's Filippo Grandi Addresses Climate and the Refugee Crisis; Former White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci Says Trump Should Be Removed from Office. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired December 11, 2019 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, this is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): We are making news this hour as America squeezes Iran with new sanctions. We speak to the U.S. special
representative for the country for the very latest.
With more refugees in the world now than ever before and even a church displaying images of Mary, Joseph and Jesus jailed for being migrants, we
look at the state of our world with the U.N.'s High Commissioner for Refugees.
Plus, with Lebanon sinking into crisis, my interview with the former prime minister on what's going on and the corruption allegations against him.
Life isn't easy at the top. The U.S. president facing an uphill battle, no matter where he turns. In Washington, impeachment appears to be growing
more likely by the moment. Abroad, he's just gone ahead with fresh sanctions against Iran. Let me break out both of those stories for you.
The Democrats' move to impeach President Trump entering a new phase. The formal public debate over the articles of impeachment against the president
begins hours from now in the Judiciary Committee. Democrats unveiled two charges against President Trump on Tuesday, abuse of power and obstruction
of Congress. Mr. Trump says the case against him is weak and pathetic.
Meanwhile, the U.S. ramping up its maximum pressure campaign against Iran with fresh sanctions. On the list, Iran's biggest shipping company and one
of its biggest airlines. The U.S. secretary of state Mike Pompeo made the announcement a short time ago. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Today I'm announcing designation of three Iranian transportation companies that helped Iran import items for
its weapons of mass destruction programs. These programs involved siphoning of funds away from the oppressed Iranian people and they augment
the regime's campaign of terror and intimidation at home and throughout the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That is the secretary of state Mike Pompeo.
Brian Hook, joining me from Washington, he is the U.S. special representative for Iran and senior policy advisor to secretary of state
Mike Pompeo.
Good to have you with us. There will be people watching this, saying who would have known there was anything or anyone left to sanction in Iran?
Why these entities and why now, sir?
BRIAN HOOK, U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR IRAN: Well, because we continue to monitor the threats to peace and security that Iran presents.
When we identify them, we take action to counter or neutralize them.
Iran uses shipping networks by land, sea and air to move missiles and nuclear items into places like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, around the
Middle East. So today Secretary Pompeo and Treasury Secretary Mnuchin sanctioned all those organizations so that we can do everything we can to
stop these weapons from proliferating around the Middle East.
ANDERSON: What concrete evidence do you have that Iran is planning new provocations against U.S. troops and interests in this region of the Middle
East?
HOOK: Well, Becky, much of that is classified. Since may we have seen an increase in Iran's attempts to threaten American interests and to threaten
our partners. Because we have enhanced our forced posture in the reason, since May we've put an additional 14,000 troops.
We've enhanced our intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. We know this has helped to disrupt and deter many of the attacks the regime has
been hoping to execute. We're going to continue to stay vigilant and do what we can to protect our interests and the interests of our partners and
allies.
ANDERSON: You have argued and you continue to argue that the economic pressure exerted by the U.S. serves the demands of the Iranian people for a
major change in the policies of the Islamic Republic.
Brian, what is very clear is that the forces gaining influence in Iran are the hardliners, loyal to the supreme leader.
[11:05:00]
ANDERSON: Moderates and reformers are quite frankly being hung out to dry as the deep state gains more power. We've seen evidence at home that the
regime is prepared to use force. Clearly the lesson of Syria, you can be brutal and still hold onto power.
Do you believe there is a risk that the effect of U.S. sanctions is that the Islamic Republic is getting stronger?
Some experts believe it's headed for a military dictatorship.
HOOK: We see an entirely different assessment. We see now the deadliest political crisis in the history of the Islamic Republic. They have had to
kill as many as 1,000 people or more; they have injured over 2,000 people and they arrested 7,000 to 8,000 people.
You have wide scale protests in Lebanon, wide scale protests in Iraq. What we're seeing from the peoples of each of these three countries is they want
their country back. They're tired of Iran trying to export its model of domination and sectarian violence.
They would like to see an end to the corruption. They would like to see better jobs. So we're very pleased with how people have been demanding a
more representative government in all three of those states.
ANDERSON: Let me ask you this, Iraq, Libya, Syria, when has the U.S. ever effected regime change successfully with the use of U.S. sanctions?
HOOK: Well, we're not doing regime change. So I would question the premise of your question.
The future of Iran is going to be decided by the Iranian people. It will not be decided by the United States government. What we're looking for is
a change in behavior.
And many of the things that we are asking the regime to do differently is the same thing the Iranian people are. They're tired of seeing tens of
billions of dollars spent in Syria on Assad and on Hezbollah and Hamas.
Today your average Hezbollah fighter makes more than your average Iranian firefighter. And the Iranian people are tired of seeing their wealth spent
on foreign adventures, while they struggle.
ANDERSON: And there is not a single Iranian who is likely to argue with that point.
The problem is -- and I put this to you again -- this campaign of maximum pressure is only strengthening -- I'm talking to sources all over the
region -- it's strengthening, not weakening this regime. This is a regime which is going nowhere, sir.
HOOK: Becky, you're the only person I've heard making this argument. Everything that I've seen in print and on television is quite the opposite.
The regime is much weaker today. They are, as I said, facing their deadliest political unrest in their history. I don't know how you can
argue that somehow they're winning.
ANDERSON: All I'm saying is that we see evidence of a strengthening of hard liners --
(CROSSTALK)
HOOK: It's not.
ANDERSON: -- versus a weakening --
HOOK: No, it's not. One of the things is we don't get into this -- I think the Obama administration got lost in this sort of parlor game of
empowering moderates and weakening the hardliners and that led them into an Iran nuclear deal that in one year is going to end the U.N. arms embargo
because they thought the moderates would be empowered.
If you're in the Iranian government, you're a hardliner. We've been trying to accept Iran's foreign policy for what it is and do everything we can do
to reverse the gains that were made under the Iran nuclear deal. We're pleased with what we're seeing across the region. The regime is weaker and
so are its proxies. We expect that to continue.
ANDERSON: The prisoner swap this past weekend has been applauded as a possible step forward. The first time Iran and the Trump administration,
quite frankly, have agreed on anything. The president taking to Twitter to say, see, the two countries can make a deal.
What is the president suggesting, sir?
HOOK: Well, I think it speaks for itself. The president said after we were able to get the American who has been -- he was innocent, wrongly
detained and was in an Iranian prison for three and a half years. We were able to negotiate a deal with the Iranians.
I traveled to Switzerland after negotiating his release with the Iranians through the Swiss. I think it's something we can build on. I hope it's a
first step. We're going to be requesting a consular dialogue with the Iranians so that we can get the remaining innocent Americans out of Iran's
prisons.
ANDERSON: Which is, of course, incredibly important.
[11:10:00]
ANDERSON: As it is for other countries to be involved in doing the same.
Let me just put this to you; Robin Wright, one of the most insightful journalists writing about Iran, says that her sources claim, quote, "the
administration usurped the narrative after almost three years of lethargic diplomacy and claimed that they initiated these negotiations and did much
of the legwork, often despite resistance and roadblocks imposed by Trump's current and former envoys."
With respect, sir, meaning you.
Your response?
HOOK: Robin Wright has bad sources. And the Iranian regime yesterday said everything that you need to know rejecting the narrative that Robin is
putting forward.
ANDERSON: Well, a little over -- I want to move on to Iraq here -- because a little over a months ago, hundreds of leaked intelligence reports offered
a detailed portrait of how aggressively Tehran has worked to embed itself in Iraqi affairs.
We're seeing a video of Iraqis trying to set fire to the Iranian consulate. The government has promised early elections.
How will Iraqis ensure these elections are clean when we know the Iranian influence is so powerful inside the country?
And can you categorically say that the U.S. will not meddle in that election?
HOOK: Well, unlike Iran, we support an Iraq that is sovereign and stable and independent. Kassem Soleimani would very much like to see Baghdad
under the complete domination of Tehran. So we have a very different view of the future.
I would say to the Iraqi people, if you want to see your future under Iranian domination, look at how Iran treats its own people. This is a
regime that prioritizes ideology over the welfare of its own people. It's highly sectarian. It has no interest in supporting a prosperous and stable
Iraq. And certainly that is the future we would like to see.
So Secretary Pompeo has made very clear he supports those peaceful protesters. We have condemned violence against them and have condemned all
efforts by Iran to dominate Iraq.
ANDERSON: Sir, we'll have you back. It's important to have you on and thank you for your time.
HOOK: Thanks, Becky.
ANDERSON: Brian Hook on The very latest on the maximum pressure campaign, the latest sanctions on the Islamic Republic of Iran.
We are keeping an eye on what could turn out to be some very enlightening testimony on Capitol Hill. The Department of Justice's inspector general
is answering questions in the U.S. Senate about his report into Russian election meddling and the Trump campaign.
It found the FBI's investigation was justified and showed no political bias. President Trump has been lying about the report's conclusions,
including a false statement at a rally last night, that the FBI spied on his campaign.
It is a busy hour of news. Coming up, we're fast approaching the end of a decade, one that has seen the number of displaced people rise to
unprecedented levels. I'll be speaking to the man entrusted with the care and protection of refugees around the world.
Plus, Lebanon in crisis. My interview with the former prime minister. His ideas and the way forward. That, after this.
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ANDERSON: Shares of Saudi Arabia's state oil company Aramco soaring, 10 percent, boosting the valuation to nearly $1.9 trillion. I want to bring
in CNN's Nic Robertson who joins us live from Riyadh in Saudi Arabia.
It's the world's largest IPO. It's the jewel in the crown of the crown prince's strategy to diversify the economy. He wanted a valuation of
around $2 trillion or more. And the response at least locally has helped push the market cap that way.
The question is, will there be international appetite for a slice of Aramco's action going forward?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I mean, I think, you know, the sort of jewel in the crown will have a bit more dazzle but the
shine has definitely come off of it since, you know, what the crown prince had originally wanted, a $2 trillion valuation. It was $1.7 trillion. It
came up to $1.9 trillion. The fact it's been able to push it at all is seen as positive. The shine came up after the razzle-dazzle rollout in
2016 when international business leaders gathered in the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Riyadh.
We were told this IPO was coming, how big it was going to be and what it would do for the country, which is a vehicle for the crown prince to fund
his vision for the country going forward, diversifying the economy, getting more people into private jobs and out of government employment.
A year later, that same hotel was being used to round up an hold for long periods of time, 300 princes and businessmen. The government says it was
anti-corruption. The sense was it was a power grab and a lot of them lost a lot of money in the process. So that took the shine off for the
international investor.
There's a trust deficit and that's something that Saudi Arabia and the crown prince are going to have to work doubly hard to get around. And that
really perhaps is part of the lesson, the takeaway, the big picture of this IPO.
That said, the crown prince has got what he wants. He's proven he can do it. But he does have the opportunity to leverage a lot more money out of
Aramco over the coming years.
ANDERSON: In the U.S., the Pentagon says it is halting its training program for hundreds of Saudi military personnel after a Saudi airman shot
and killed three people at a naval air station in Florida. Authorities treating this as a possible act of terrorism.
You've been on the ground working your sources. As the kingdom, promised it would extend any help needed in the investigation.
What's the latest there, Nic?
ROBERTSON: What we can say from what we know and studying the same Twitter accounts that investigators are studying, that they believe are associated
with the shooter, is that this is a man who, although in the last minutes before his attack was tweeting anti-American -- quoting Osama bin Laden and
the Al Qaeda cleric, al-Awlaki.
[11:20:00]
ROBERTSON: In the months and years before, he had been espousing anti- Saudi views. There's a sense he slipped under the radar. And it's something that should have been caught.
You know, as far as the relationship goes with the United States, it's quite clear that the relationship between the two countries will endure.
But no doubt the United States is going to want this as well, is to get a more increased level of vetting in place of international students.
Certainly Saudi Arabia has given every indication that's going to comply with that. They recognize it needs to.
ANDERSON: Nic Robertson on the ground in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, Nic, thank you.
Still to come this hour on CONNECT THE WORLD, he ran the White House communications office for a total of 11 days until President Trump fired
him. What Anthony Scaramucci thinks about the impeachment inquiry and the 2020 elections.
Coming up after the break, my conversation with the former prime minister of Lebanon, an ally of the former prime minister, Hariri, who appears to be
positioning himself for a comeback. That after this.
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ANDERSON: We're seeing new video from social media showing a clash in Beirut. Security forces appear to have clashed with protesters who were
going around the city center in their cars.
It is the same area where the longtime speaker of the parliament of Lebanon Nabih Berri lives. He heads the Amal movement. Lebanon has seen weeks of
mostly peaceful protest, demanding economic reform and a change in leadership; in fact, a change in the entire system.
The Lebanese president Michel Aoun has reportedly postponed consultations to designate a new prime minister by one week. They had been scheduled for
Monday but we were put on hold after a businessmen Samir Khatib withdrew his consideration.
So we caught up with someone who used to have that job, the former Lebanese prime minister, Fouad Siniora, who was this week in Dubai at the Arab
Strategy Forum.
Saad Hariri seems to be trying to position himself to return as prime minister, a question I put to the former leader.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: You know Saad Hariri well. You are one of his closest allies and a member of his future movement.
What does he want at present?
Does he want to be prime minister?
[11:25:00]
FOUAD SINIORA, FORMER LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER: He expressed his readiness because he has already recognized and acknowledged the fact that, with this
situation, with such division among the various political groups, is not going to lead to any reform and it will not save the country.
That's why he said I'm ready to assume responsibility in taking that post, provided that we will have a group of people who are not related or they
are masterminded by the political groups.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: A group that doesn't include the former foreign minister --
(CROSSTALK)
SINIORA: Or any of the, let's say, representatives of the political groups.
ANDERSON: You are of the ilk that protesters are demonstrating against a generation of politicians they say who have completely let them down. Just
this past month of November, the financial prosecutor issued an order for you to appeal for questions over some $11 billion worth of spending during
your term as premier.
That is exactly what protesters are demonstrating against, what they call corruption.
SINIORA: My history over the past 27 years in the public sector, being, first of all, as a minister of finance and then the prime minister, I have
been subjected to a great deal of what you call character assassination.
Let me tell you, it's not only $11 billion I have been accused of, which is entirely wrong and definitely not correct, basically, it is the group of
the president as well as Hezbollah and others. I have been carrying the banner of reform in the country. I would have done the same things that I
have done when I was a prime minister.
ANDERSON: You oversaw a national debt that went from $2 billion to some $50 billion. You say that money, that $11 billion, was legally spent.
Was that just then inept?
SINIORA: Everything is properly recorded in the accounts of the ministry. And I am really proud, again, what I have done was right thing.
ANDERSON: How did you feel when protesters outside your home chanted, by simply summoning him, it is not enough. We want the money, we want our
children's money. We will not leave the streets until we get it.
They see you as part of this corrupt elite, sir, with respect.
SINIORA: Despite all of these allegations, I have been very clear and straightforward, supporting the demands of the young men and women.
ANDERSON: Lebanon stands on the verge of an economic collapse. We have been talking about this for some time.
Is there any way to avert that, that you can see?
Already the consultation for a new prime minister has been delayed once again. There is clearly no agreement on Lebanon's political future as
these stand today.
What -- how concerned are you, sir?
SINIORA: I'm very concerned. I'm very concerned.
But how to get up?
Actually every economy is dependent on one important thing; confidence.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: There was no confidence in anybody's economy. Why have the Arab states --
SINIORA: What has been going on has been a complete erosion of confidence in the Lebanese economy, in the Lebanese state, the Lebanese government and
the Lebanese political class.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: My conversation with the former Lebanese prime minister, Fouad Siniora.
By the way, the caretaker finance minister has just said the country's 2019 budget deficit will be much bigger than expected. He's quoted by Reuters
as saying it's because of a very concerning decrease in state revenues. The economic picture directly linked to the political situation here.
We're going to keep breaking it down for you on CONNECT THE WORLD as Lebanon is about to enter its third month of protests.
Up next, they're facing rape, murder, torture, even genocide. These only a few of the terrible horrors inflicted upon the Rohingya Muslims of Myanmar.
[11:30:00]
ANDERSON: Next we speak to the head of the United Nations Refugee Agency. That is up next.
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ANDERSON: Welcome back. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD, I'm Becky Anderson.
Once a voice for the oppressed, now accused of siding with the oppressors; you'll know the name of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi. She
became the symbol of global human rights. But right now, she's defending Myanmar's government of accusations of genocide against the minority
Rohingya Muslims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AUNG SAN SUU KYI, MYANMAR STATE COUNSELOR: To conclude, Mr. President and members of the court, Rahkine today suffers an internal armed conflict
between the Buddhist army and Myanmar's defense services. Muslims are not a party to this conflict but may, like other civilians in the conflict
area, be affected by security measures that are in place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Myanmar's de facto leader was addressing the International Court of Justice in The Hague earlier today, calling the allegations against her
country, quote, "incomplete and misleading."
That genocide has forced more than 700,000 Rohingya Muslims to flee to neighboring Bangladesh. If there's anyone who understands the effects of
displacement, it's my next guest, Filippo Grandi. He's the U.N. High commissioner for Refugees.
Sir, it is good to have you with us. This all marks a remarkable fall from grace for Suu Kyi, who used to be seen as an icon but today giving what was
a spirited defense of the very same military brass who for years locked her up under house arrest.
What do you make of this irony?
[11:35:00]
FILIPPO GRANDI, U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: I think that the judgment on what happened, not only in 2017 but also before at this moment,
really lies with the judicial process that is happening in The Hague.
We as UNHCR are particularly concerned about the current situation of hundreds of thousands of Rohingyas who are refugees in Bangladesh and
others that continue to be displaced inside Myanmar.
On this, we have, as we always do, we engage with both the Myanmar and Bangladesh government to try and find solutions and, in the meantime, to
try and make life less miserable for these people who have suffered such terrible situations in the past.
ANDERSON: Rohingya refugees, we are, sir, one day away from the U.K. general election, the issue of migration, of course, playing a major role
in Brexit. It will play a factor in the people's vote.
Turkey's president warning European countries of, quote, "opening the floodgates" to a new wave of migrants, refugees leaving his country. I
wonder whether you share my horror or distaste of the use of the term "open the floodgates."
What can be done to fix this lack of joint action amongst European leaders on this issue?
GRANDI: I think you're right to say that we've come to a very sad place in Europe if refugees can be used to threaten or, you know, be utilized, be
presented as a threat. Refugees are people like we just heard from you about the Rohingya in Myanmar who flee from unspeakable situations of
conflict and violence.
We have to turn the narrative around. Too many politicians in Europe, in rich countries in particular, have utilized refugees as a way to gain
consensus by presenting them as a threat. That's why we're having this big refugee forum next week in Geneva.
Also to turn the narrative around, to restore a sense of solidarity for people who are not coming to invade or to make us victims but who are
victims themselves of very, very dangerous situations.
ANDERSON: I'm sure the refugee crisis from Libya will be front and center at that meeting that you speak of. This should be a stain on Europe's
conscience, its lack of a coordinated policy, seen thousands lose their lives trying to cross from the North African country for a better life.
Sir, as the name of your organization suggests, it is entrusted with the care and protection of refugees. However, the agency is being accused of
starving migrants out of a detention center in Libya and forcing them to leave by deliberately withholding aid.
What's your response to these claims?
GRANDI: I think this issue has been misunderstood and misrepresented. We're actually helping as much as we can refugees and, together with other
organizations, migrants and other people on the move, who are really in sometimes -- detained in these horrible centers that CNN, by the way, has
talked about so effectively in the past.
So we're really doing our best, we're trying to rationalize the scarce means that we have and scarce access. Don't forget we're operating across
war lines, war and then the international community has been unable or sometimes I feel unwilling to resolve.
Yet we're tasked with dealing with the most extreme consequences of that conflict, which is to create spaces for unscrupulous people to exploit
miserable migrants and refugees trying to reach better lives.
In that narrow space, we have to make compromises. Sometimes we have to shift assistance from one place to the other, with denying assistance to
nobody. We're trying to promote assistance outside centers and not inside centers.
That's what has generated some misperception, which I very much regret because my colleagues out there, together with NGOs and other
organizations, are risking their lives day in, day out, to help those people.
ANDERSON: You will be well aware of this stark statistic: every two seconds, a person has to leave their home, we are told, due to climate
change.
[11:40:00]
ANDERSON: That's according to figures from Oxfam, which means -- and many of these, of course, are migrants, refugees moving through Libya, from
other parts of Africa. That means since we started talking, hundreds, literally hundreds of people have had to flee because of what we're doing
to our planet. I know this is an incredibly important issue to you at the agency.
What's the U.N. doing to help people facing these issues?
GRANDI: Well, I think the most important work has to be done to address the root causes of this new factor of displacement, which is climate
change. So this is what the secretary general, what Greta Thunberg is talking about.
We need quicker action, it's already too late in many cases to reduce emissions and to take other measures to address the causes of climate
change.
We as always, as a humanitarian refugee organization, we have to deal with the consequences of that. So we're telling people get ready for this new
type of displacement.
It's generated by rising seas, by drought, by natural disasters that are also displacing people more rapidly and more suddenly than before. And we
are working with states to help them with that.
This is not purely a refugee issue. This is not people fleeing from war and violence but often through the same countries, as you said, and often
with the same effects. So we're certainly working on that very hard at the moment. It's a very big challenge for the future.
ANDERSON: Very briefly, sir, because we're nearing the end of our time. We are nearing the end of what has been a troubling decade. According to
your organization, the number of refugees worldwide has risen to over 25 million.
As commissioner for refugees, are you, frankly, fighting a losing battle at this point?
GRANDI: I did not hear your question, I apologize.
ANDERSON: Are you fighting a losing battle?
GRANDI: If I felt that this battle was a lost one, I would certainly quit my job and not do it. I think there is still a space, still solidarity,
there's still an interest in the international community to address this in a rational effective manner.
For this, we need to work together, more together. International cooperation is necessary; hence, the Global Refugee Forum that will take
place in Geneva next week.
ANDERSON: With that, we'll leave it there, sir. It's a pleasure having you on, we thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.
Before we move on, I want share this image. A church in California depicting the birth of Jesus into a strong statement about the plight of
refugees and migrants by putting images of Joseph, Jesus and Mary in cases.
On this show at CONNECT THE WORLD, we are connecting the world. It is about connecting us all together.
Next up on the show --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER TRUMP COMMS DIRECTOR: He is the exemplar of somebody who needs to and should be impeached and should be removed from
office.
ANDERSON (voice-over): One-time Trump champion, now with a very different opinion of his former boss. Why Anthony "The Mooch" Scaramucci thinks it's
the beginning of the end of the Trump presidency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[11:45:00]
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[11:50:00]
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ANDERSON: He used today sing the praises of the U.S. president, calling Donald Trump an unbelievable politician. Now he calls his former boss a
raging lunatic. Anthony "The Mooch" Scaramucci is part of a large club of those fired by Mr. Trump but he's one of the few who has turned into a
full-on Trump critic.
With the articles of impeachment now officially revealed, I sat down with him earlier and asked whether he genuinely thought the president should be
removed from office.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCARAMUCCI: I think when you read Article 65 from the Federalist Papers or actually study the Constitution and what the founders were thinking about,
they were thinking about President Trump.
They were thinking about a man that would recklessly use the power of the presidency to go after his individual citizens. He's the exemplar of
somebody who needs to and should be impeached and should be removed from office.
ANDERSON: It won't likely get through the Senate, so what's the point?
SCARAMUCCI: I think it's a constitutional mission. Because history will judge that; 15 or 20 years from now, when people are studying America,
they'll say, OK, there was a large group of brave, principled Americans that saw what was going on and called it for what it is rather than
overlooked it.
ANDERSON: But the point is that we haven't seen a single Republican cross the line at this point.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, it doesn't speak well of them. Yes, that's an integrity and a character issue.
ANDERSON: They're overwhelmingly supportive of the president.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, they want to maintain their personal power. They've got it in reverse. It should be what's in the best interest of the American
citizens, then party and personal power. But they've flipped the pyramid.
Mr. Trump has said he'll testify.
SCARAMUCCI: Zero chance.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: You know him well, you were his communications director for 11 days but go on.
SCARAMUCCI: First of all, he's a congenital liar and the second issue he has is he won't be able to keep his story straight. He knows. He knows
what he's capable of.
ANDERSON: You said in the past that if impeached, you do not think he'll run again. There is no sign that he is --
(CROSSTALK)
SCARAMUCCI: I still think he's not going to run. I think there's a combination of things that are going on, some of it is related to his
health. I think some of it is related to the impeachment process.
He'll be the third American president in U.S. history, in 243 years, to have been impeached by the House of Representatives. And so there will be
a cascade of information, a waterfall of information that will not reflect well on him.
He's also exhausted the people he needs to win the American presidency. There's 15 percent to 18 percent of the people in the middle. These are
moderates and independents that live in those swing states that I think he has exhausted.
I mean, trust me, I know the president reasonably well. He claims he doesn't know me but I've got a good understanding of his personality. It's
humiliation, that's one guy that doesn't like to be humiliated.
ANDERSON: Why did you turn on Donald Trump?
SCARAMUCCI: It was a gradual process. I wanted to be loyal to him. After I got fired, I didn't take it personally. In fact, I have always been
accountable for my own firing. You separate the women from the children, sorry; I don't like that. You're disavowing the intelligence agencies in
Helsinki.
They when he went after the American congressman, I'm an Italian American. They told my 18-year-old grandmother when she came off the boat that she
couldn't work in certain places because she was Italian.
The leader of the free world and the president of the United States should not be talking like that.
ANDERSON: Last question to you. Donald Trump said recently that if Jared Kushner cannot sort out peace in the Middle East, no one can. You know
Jared Kushner.
What's going on up here?
Is he the only man who can sort out peace in the Middle East?
SCARAMUCCI: I attended the Bahrain peace conference. I looked at the economic plan for the Palestinians. I know there has to be a corresponding
political plan that's equally well thought out.
[11:55:00]
SCARAMUCCI: Unfortunately, this is a very complicated area of the world. The Sykes-Picot treaty, I think, you know, created a level of disruption in
this part of the world that in some ways could be unhealable. So I think it's too much pressure on one person, frankly, to be put in this position.
But I like Jared a great deal. I think he's a very thoughtful person.
ANDERSON: You say you like and respect Jared Kushner, one of a very small cohort of people around a president that you say is not fit for office.
How do you square that?
SCARAMUCCI: I'm smart enough to discern the different individuals and cast my judgment on them personally, not collectively. And so, yes, you have to
understand the president beats to his own drum (sic). He takes very little counsel from anybody. Not a great listener.
He's evacuated staff that would challenge him or have the intellectual confidence to do that. In Jared's case, I think he's figured out a way to
work with the president. The fact he's married to the president's daughter, I think, has helped build a level of trust with the president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Interesting character, some interesting insights. The possible impeachment of Donald Trump is a defining story of our time. No doubt
about it. We've got a lot more coverage coming up on CNN.
Both sides, Republicans and Democrats, get set to debate the charges of high crimes and misdemeanors against the most powerful man in the world.
That's coming up in the hours ahead.
Up next here on CNN, Richard Quest looks at the British election, Saudi Aramco's massive IPO and power cuts in South Africa.
It's your world, we've been connecting you to it. See you tomorrow.
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