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Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak Dies; Coronavirus Outbreak; Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak Reflects on the Life of Hosni Mubarak; Weinstein Found Guilty; China Fires Back at CNN Uyghur Report. Aired 11a-12:00p ET
Aired February 25, 2020 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, this is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Hello. A warm welcome from our Middle East broadcasting hub in the UAE. Our top story: the death of Hosni
Mubarak, the former Egyptian president, who helped fight a war against Israel, then staunchly defended peace with the Jewish state.
A man who for decades crushed internal dissent at home for eventually falling to it. For much of his time, he was a cult-like figure, a man
seemingly destined to rule for life. A key player in the morass of Middle East politics, maintaining peace with Israel and winning support and
billions of dollars in aid from the United States.
But nearly three decades of iron-fisted rule at home came to an end in mere weeks during the 2011 Arab Spring protests. Here's my look at his rise to
power and his sudden shocking downfall.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON (voice-over): Hosni Mubarak climbed his way to the top going from training in the Soviet Union to taking command of Egypt's air force. He did
so before the 1973 Yom Kippur war when Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack on Israel.
Two years later, he became the country's vice president and then, six years later, the president, Anwar Sadat, was assassinated by Islamic militants.
Mubarak himself only narrowly escaping the bullets. With such a close brush as president, Mubarak fought a long and bloody war against Islamic
militants who were bent on toppling his regime and massacred brazenly.
In the worst example of their brutality, this, they murdered more than 60 people, mostly European and Japanese tourists, in a 1997 rampage. In its
wake, Egypt's security forces went full force on crushing the militants. While human rights groups accused the regime of widespread torture and
abuse, still he remained a regular close friend of America.
He was in many ways their go-to guy in the Middle East. and so a regular guest at the White House. He sent Egyptian troops to help drive Iraqi
forces out of Kuwait during the first Gulf War. His troops making up the largest Arab contingent.
But friendship has limits. Mubarak later declining to join the second invasion of Iraq. He reacted coolly to Bush's calls for democratic reform
in the Arab world.
But under intense pressure from Washington, Mubarak began to ease his grip on power. In September of 2005, Egypt had its first-ever multicandidate
presidential election. While his opponent made some gains, Mubarak still held firmly onto power.
That was, until growing discontent over corruption, police brutality and economic inequality boiled over on January 25th, 2011, when a group of
young activists using social media organized an uprising that would in some ways become a revolution.
Erupted in 18 days of mounting protests across the country, calling for his resignation, to which Mubarak responded brutally. Human rights
organizations estimated more than 800 protesters were killed in clashes with police and his supporters. But no amount of blood could turn the tide.
The movement against Mubarak growing. He refused to simply step back. He saw himself as a modern-day pharaoh, to whom Egypt belonged. But on
February 11th, 2011, he was finally forced out.
Millions of Egyptians took to the streets in wild celebration. So long his rule, two-thirds of all Egyptians were born under it; a year and a half
later, justice. He was sentenced to life in prison, a sentence for his role in the killing of protesters.
Seven months later, an appeals court reversed that ruling. He was free of sorts.
[11:05:00]
ANDERSON (voice-over): He walked back into the world though, with little fanfare or opposition some six years after that uprising. Since then, he'd
been rarely seen in public. This believed to be the last public photo of Mubarak, frail, with his son by his side.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Our team on this for you, CNN international correspondent Arwa Damon, who is in Istanbul, and Christiane Amanpour, who is in London.
And you were both in Egypt in 2011.
Arwa, I want to show our viewers what it was like on the streets as it happened back then. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The atmosphere here is still electric. People celebrating hours after the news first hit Tahrir
Square that president Mubarak would no longer be running this country. People erupting into cheers, screams, strangers hugging and kissing and
congratulating one another.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: There is, among some quarters, some nostalgia for the former Egyptian president. But take me back to that time, Arwa, if you will.
DAMON: You know, it had been some 18 days of a complete emotional roller coaster, where those protesters, mostly young, mostly college students,
young adults, had really been trying to pile on the pressure in Tahrir Square.
And they had stood up to people charging through them on horseback to tanks, to some of those who supported Mubarak trying to assault them. There
had been numerous cases reported of individuals getting beaten up, being detained by either the formal security apparatus or by others, who were
better described as being Mubarak's thugs.
There was this sense of euphoria. But look, if we look at what happened afterwards and where Egypt is today, many will tell you President Sisi is
even more repressive than President Mubarak ever was.
And in some way, the ideals that the masses were looking for, were fighting for during that time period in February, never came to pass.
And speaking of that time period, I also had ended up spending some time with the parents of some of these young protesters. And they were
apologetic. They said they were apologizing to their children because they felt as if they bore a burden of responsibility for allowing Mubarak to
continue in the way that he did and that Egyptians themselves hadn't gone out sooner and asked for the kinds of changes we saw in February.
ANDERSON: Christiane, I spoke to the former British ambassador to Egypt earlier, who said of Mubarak, and I quote him, "Before 2011 he was a
cunning consolidator and cautious statesman who, for 30 years, made it impossible for Egyptians to imagine a world without him."
You met Mubarak in 2011 after he announced he would not contest another election. But before he stepped down. We are seeing images of the two of
you on the screen.
Now what are your memories of Mubarak?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Well, so that was exactly February the 3rd, which transpired to be one week before he stepped down. And so, yes, I was
covering. I was in the square. Remember, of course, that Egypt's uprising happened after the initial one which was in Tunisia, when the young flower
and fruit seller burned himself in protest. That led to that.
And there was the big uprising in Egypt, the biggest of the Arab nations and the rock of the Arab world. It was shocking for the world, which had
this relationship with Hosni Mubarak. And I happened to be in the palace there, the presidential palace on that day, interviewing Omar Suleiman, his
head of intelligence and who was going to be his successor and certainly was his right hand man at the time.
I went there to interview Suleiman and all of a sudden, I understand that Mubarak was in the palace. He hadn't been seen publicly. No journalist had
been near him since all this started. I basically, just because I knew the palace, because I'd interviewed him many times before there myself and my
producer, we went down the marble staircase. And it was like there was no noise or sound. There were all these empty rooms.
[11:10:00]
AMANPOUR: You could tell it was the end of an era. And I was ushered into a sort of a reception room. There was Mubarak with his son and maybe one or
two advisers. Very much alone, different to the many times I met him before.
We did not have a video camera. I spoke to him for 25 minutes and broke the news that he said he would step down. And at the time he said to me, you
know, I've had enough. I need to go.
He said he wanted to stay for a few weeks or months to ensure stability. He used to say that a lot, the idea of stability. But then he also said that
he felt betrayed by the United States because, as you remember, the Obama administration was siding with the street and insisted that he leave.
And to be honest with you, that move by the Obama administration poisoned President Obama's relations with many of the Arab world's and his allies
there, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, many who thought, wow, if the U.S. can sell an ally like Mubarak down the river, what will they do to us?
That started this kind of real sort of bad relations between that part of the Arab world and the Obama administration. And then a week later, he
stepped down and the rest is history.
But you know, I was the last to see him before he stepped down and it was a very interesting human moment, because this strong man, who had ruled for
more than 30 years, was really humbled and brought low and, as you laid out in the obit, he never saw the light of day again in any meaningful way. He
was an invalid and incarcerated and his movements restricted for the last 10 years.
ANDERSON: Christiane makes some good points about how Mubarak will be remembered around this region. We've talked about his relationship with the
Palestinians and the Israelis. The statements from both today, mourning his passing.
It's -- it's a difficult calculation, isn't it, around this region. It really depends on which prism you're looking through, as to how you might
expect people to react and perhaps leadership around the region reacting in quite a different way than many on the street.
DAMON: And, Becky, it's going to be interesting to see how some of these leaders do end up reacting.
I mean, look, in the eyes of many leaders, specifically in this region, they recognize the strongman. They all, in different ways, sort of approach
this idea of governance, whether it's through dictatorships or through monarchies or any other sort of regime.
But they view governance as sort of being this ability to control a population and that they are the ones who know what is best for the country
and for the individuals. And you do see a very similar heavy hand to the one Mubarak used in Egypt still being used in Egypt today and being used in
a number of countries in the Middle East.
That, to a certain degree, is respected by other governments here and the desire of a population to want to move toward, say, for example, a more
fair democracy or for a population to want to demand accountability for violations of human rights. Those, many governments in the region tend to
brush aside.
And that being said, there are people who will look at Mubarak's 30-year history ruling Egypt and look at what he did in his early days, his
military history, when he was something of a hero, and they'll say that that's enough for them to be able to forgive the way that he was governing.
But others, especially the young generation, they remember those days out in Tahrir Square and won't necessarily be as forgiving, perhaps, at this
stage.
ANDERSON: Michael Hanna, senior fellow at the Century Foundation treating this on the news of Mubarak's death.
"The Egyptian security state understands Mubarak's downfall not only as a product of misguided focus on succession but also as a result of Mubarak's
efforts to create controlled opposition politics as a safety valve. They've worked since to ensure that that never happens again."
What do you make of that?
[11:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, look, I think what he's saying is what we've seen unfold in the Middle East, certainly before and since the Arab Spring. There were
sort of tolerated small parties that were allowed to be official opposition.
It kind of is irrelevant now, to be frank. That's all sort of moved on. I mean, the bottom line is the most successful political party in Egypt was
the Muslim Brotherhood. It was not accepted as a political party yet. Its presence was in every single neighborhood, in every mosque, in every local
grassroots politics by other means.
In other words, Muslim Brotherhood dealt with and met the human needs of people who were not being ministered to by the government: poverty,
homelessness, all sorts of ways were alleviated in many ways through the network of people in the mosques.
And that was the inevitable second iteration of power, once the autocrats fell. And that's what you saw happened in Egypt. Once Mubarak fell and
there were the first ever free and fair elections and that's not contested, they were free and they were as fair as they've ever been, guess who won,
the Muslim Brotherhood candidate, who I also interviewed and I got the first interview with him.
But to say this wasn't good enough for the rest of the country and certainly the military in Egypt and they wanted him out. They were very,
very scared that a Muslim Brotherhood government would take the country down the route of extremism and all the way back to the original problems
in Egypt which, as you remember, Hosni Mubarak's immediate predecessor, Anwar Sadat was murdered by religion Islamist extremists. Many say because
he forged peace with Israel.
But of all the Arab Spring countries, nothing went right. In Egypt it hasn't gone right, although it's stable in a sort of military authoritarian
way. Libya has not gone right. It is the source of a huge amount of instability and emigration to the West now.
Syria is an all-out war. Nine years, nearly 10 years later, Syria is still at war, with hundreds of thousands of people dead. That just started by
ordinary people rising up on the street and saying we want some reform and look what they got.
Millions and millions of refugees and it's terrible. The only country that's managed is the first one. And that was Tunisia. We ought to really
embrace and admire them for what they were able to do out of this horror of what happened after the Arab Spring.
ANDERSON: Christiane Amanpour in London. Arwa is in Istanbul.
To both of you, thank you.
We'll stick with this story throughout the hour. I'll speak with a former Israeli prime minister, who sat across the table from the late Egyptian
leader.
And a senior Iranian official tests positive for the coronavirus after appearing ill on TV. What the country is and is not doing to contain the
outbreak. That is up next.
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ANDERSON: Tonight we could see a health official's worst fears coming true right here in the Middle East as the coronavirus spreads quickly through
countries with weaker health care systems.
New cases in Iran are spreading to new parts of the country and slipping beyond its borders. But Qom, the epicenter of Iran's epidemic, still hasn't
been quarantined. The health minister quoted by state media as saying they believe people are, quote, "cultured enough to refrain from traveling from
infected cities to other places."
But it is already spreading from Iran to other countries. The illness reaching neighboring Iraq and Afghanistan. And there is Kuwait, Bahrain,
Oman, even as far as Lebanon. Outside the Middle East, the number of cases in South Korea reaching almost 1,000 and northern Italy also a growing hot
spot.
The prime minister blaming mismanagement at a hospital for the outbreak there. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is joining us and Melissa Bell will join us in a
moment from Venice.
Let's start with you, Sanjay. What we are seeing around this region is a real concern to people living here in the Middle East.
What do you make of Iran reporting 95 confirmed cases and the number of deaths so much higher than that which we are seeing elsewhere?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, if you start to look at this number, which is known as the fatality ratio, the
number of deaths as compared to the number of infected, it's obviously higher in Iran, higher in that region of the world.
The global fatality ratio is higher than what was initially reported out of China as well, closer to 3.5 percent versus 2 percent. So this is all
concerning. A couple points of context.
You know, when we compare this to SARS -- and the reason the comparison is made is because they're both the same family of viruses, known as a
coronavirus. And in the end, when you looked at the SARS numbers, it was around a 10 percent fatality ratio.
One of the things I think is really important -- and maybe this is the point you're highlighting -- is that different regions of the world are
going to be able to handle this in different ways. And it's going to be more challenging in places that don't have a robust public health
infrastructure.
That's the case. And right now the World Health Organization calls this a public health emergency of international concern. When you really start to
dig into what that means, it does come with this understanding that there are certain parts of the world that are going to be better able to contain
this and other parts that are going to be more at risk.
So we're going to have to wait and see. This has only been something we've been talking about for two months total. Two months. And you can see how
much this has changed, how much this has spread and how many people it's affected in that short time.
ANDERSON: Peter Piot, the director of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, quoted by "The New York Times," Sanjay, as saying, "Iran
is a recipe for a massive viral outbreak."
Nobody wants to foment panic, not least the WHO, who is very mindful about the language that is used around this, very reticent to call this a
pandemic.
Is it?
GUPTA: Well, it does seem like it's a little bit of semantics in this case. There are specific criteria that the WHO sort of wants to look at, to
call this a pandemic. For example, you start to see people who have the infection that have had no travel to parts of the world, such as Wuhan or
other parts of the Asia. and then you see sustained transmission within these other regions of the world.
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GUPTA: Ultimately when you see that sustained transmission in other parts of the world, it triggers the definition of pandemic.
But I think nowhere else probably in science is there this real balance between what does the science show and how do we be careful not to incite
panic, as you say?
Dr. Tedros of the World Health Organization, he was asked specifically about the point about whether it's a pandemic or not. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: For the moment, we are not witnessing the uncontained global spread of this virus and we
are not witnessing large scale deaths.
Does this virus have pandemic potential?
Absolutely it has.
Are we there yet?
From our assessment, not yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: I do think when you see the sudden uptick in numbers, obviously you have to pay attention to that. It's of concern. Keep in mind, early on in
China, that's what we saw as well. First, there was not even 100 cases. Then it went into the thousands quickly.
Why?
Some is because it's spreading. Some is because now there's increased awareness of the coronavirus in that area, more testing available. So the
uptick in numbers doesn't necessarily correspond to a true spread as much as the testing and the awareness. Again, not to be dismissive of that but
we want to see what this does over time. In China, we are starting to see the numbers plateau a little bit. So that could be a positive sign.
ANDERSON: Yes. We're seeing some 77,000 cases in China. And that clearly the kind of -- you know, the major cluster, the clusters in South Korea, in
Japan, in Iran.
And indeed, in Italy, Melissa, which is where you are tonight, causing the authorities great concern. As we understand it today, further cases outside
of the initial area where the first were diagnosed.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Becky. What we've seen over the course of the last few days is a rapid spread from an unknown patient
zero. Italian authorities simply don't know who that initial patient was.
We have patient one at one of those towns that is now under lockdown. We understand that it was his arrival at a hospital and protocols that weren't
properly respected. We know this from none other than the prime minister himself, that allowed the very fast spread of the coronavirus here in
Italy.
But beyond those regions here in northern Italy that have been so far impacted, where those lockdowns had been and the cases had been so far
identified, the majority of cases, that has now spread. Seven regions in all, including two new ones today, Sicily and Tuscany have been added to
the list.
We're expecting authorities to announce maybe an eighth. So it is spreading in Italy. The important thing now for neighboring countries is to prevent
that geographic spread over open borders in the Schengen area.
Health ministers have met to try to figure out how to do that. But for the time being, what we're seeing are more and more countries declaring new
cases, Austria and Croatia join the list today. And that's unlikely to be the end of it.
ANDERSON: Melissa Bell is in Italy, Sanjay joining us slightly earlier. Thank you both.
While Washington figures out its response to the outbreak, the U.S. president is in India, where he repeated his claim that the virus won't be
around for long. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We lost almost 1,000 points yesterday on the market and that's something -- things like that happen where -- and you have it in your
business all the time. Had nothing to do with you. It's an outside source that nobody would have ever predicted if you go back six months or three
months ago, nobody would have ever predicted. But let's see, I think it's going to be under control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That's the U.S. president on the spread of the coronavirus.
Still to come, tonight this hour on CONNECT THE WORLD, we speak with the former Israeli prime minister who talks about the life and legacy of a man
who died today aged 91. That's next.
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ANDERSON: You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. For those of you just joining us, you are more than welcome.
The death of a man who shaped Egypt and the Arab world, Hosni Mubarak was the Egyptian president for 30 years. He was likened to a modern day
pharaoh, ruling with what many saw as an iron fist. He clamped down on any dissent until it spilled over and put him out of office.
As part of the uprising in 2011, it was known as the Arab Spring. It's not easy to win praise from both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
But Israel's prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, saying in a statement released after the announcement of Mubarak's death today, quote, "I met
with him many times. I was impressed by his commitment. We will continue to follow this common path."
And Mahmoud Abbas also praising Mubarak, that he, quote, "praised the stances of the late president in supporting the Palestinian cause and the
Palestinian people in achieving their rights to freedom and independence."
No small thing to get praised from both the Israelis and indeed the Palestinians. Joining me now is a man who knew Hosni Mubarak quite well.
Former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak sat across the negotiating table from Mubarak on many occasions as prime minister and defense minister. He
joins us now live from Tel Aviv.
Perhaps it's overlooked or taken for granted but the peace deal signed by Begin and Sadat in 1979 really was a breakthrough. So that would be gone
within two years, assassinated by Islamists.
[11:35:00]
ANDERSON: And it fell to Mubarak to manage the relationship with Israel for 30 years. You knew him well.
What's your assessment of his stewardship of the relationship between the two countries?
EHUD BARAK, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: He was an impressive, balanced leader. He was brought out the air force (ph). That's a profession that
needs attention to detail and focus and control. He was deeply committed to it.
Under Mubarak, along several decades, he criticized Israel from time to time. Several times, he brought his ambassador back. But he never swayed in
regard to the peace process, even when Israeli tanks rolled into a neighboring Arab capital in Beirut.
He felt the commitment out of understanding. He respected the Israeli military capabilities. But his focus really was internally on feeding 60
million, then 70 million, then 80 million Egyptians under impossible conditions. Very backward economy, heavily corrupted and complicated.
He was focused very, very much on keeping the stability inside Egypt, which was also a deterrence (ph) and also on keeping the leadership role of Egypt
in the Arab world.
ANDERSON: CNN spoke to a former ambassador to Egypt, who regretted what he saw as Mubarak's willingness to hollow out the Israeli-Egyptian
relationship so they could improve Egypt's ties with the rest of the Arab world.
Did Mubarak invest as much in that relationship as Israel did?
BARAK: You know, he experienced for decades as a general the price on the Egypt society economy and so on and the capacity to move forward as a
result of the repeated clashes with Israel.
We have several wars and he participated in them. So he realized that it's -- he realized it's a better strategy overall (ph). I remember him telling
me about what happened when Sadat initiated the flights to the Knesset (ph). And he called; he was in Libya at the time. And he called him. And he
came. Everyone was totally frightened.
And he, Mubarak, proposed, why should we go directly to Jordan?
Probably have to go first to Damascus because we went to war together with Assad Senior (ph). Let's do the peace with him. And he reminded how Sadat
talked, looked at him and said, Hosni, how do you think?
It's a good idea in Arabic. And they went beyond the way to Jerusalem. They went through Damascus tried to bring Assad together with them as well,
which, of course, failed. He was --
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: How would you --
BARAK: -- from day one, I found him extremely reliable.
ANDERSON: That's my next question. I wonder how you would assess his diplomatic skills that you clearly have some time for, in terms of
balancing relations with Israel and the rest of the Arab world.
BARAK: He gradually resumed the leadership position of Egypt in the Arab diplomatic arena, bringing back the Arab League, around the world back to
Cairo. And he knew how to negotiate in spite of being the weaker economy, how to negotiate with the other player, mainly with the Saudis and the
Syrians.
He was a very effective diplomat. He begged us, even at -- I went to Camp David with Clinton. We both contacted (ph) him. I came before he went to
Camp David immediately afterwards. He fully supported that. He was very open with us. He said, I will go every inch that Arafat will be ready to go
(ph).
I cannot replace him in leading the Palestinian people. I can back him, however far he will be ready to go. I will not push him beyond what he's
ready to do. And that was a some of the sad facts (ph) but that was part of reality.
ANDERSON: When you look at the current Egyptian president, Sisi in charge of Egypt now for nearly seven years, I wonder what lessons you believe he's
taken from the fall of Hosni Mubarak.
[11:40:00]
ANDERSON: And also, finally, I'd love your thoughts on what you believe Hosni Mubarak's legacy is.
BARAK: You know, I think that Mubarak legacy is a real loyalty to the people. He failed tell you the truth. He felt some were betrayed by the
American administration nine years ago when the Tahrir events erupted.
He felt the American, for which he was -- with whom he worked together very closely for almost two decades at the time, that they had been too fast,
too quickly abandoned him and preferred the taste of the people.
And basically so, the following events, both the coming to power of the Muslim Brotherhood and the toppling down under a major kind of eruption of
violence, as a proof that his way was better.
He was extremely sensitive. You know, he was (INAUDIBLE) but I once met him in one of my visits to the palace and I saw him a very kind of disturbed
and in a downward mood.
Asked him, what happened, Hosni?
He told me yesterday in (INAUDIBLE) university, 600 students, attacked half a dozen of policemen. I asked what the hell he's telling me?
The man has half a million of Secret Service people of several layers working for him.
He's really worried about 600 students?
Yes, he was sensitive to the fact that he's old, so it is fragile and based on legitimacy, which is achieved in a very cautious and substantive
process. I see that he see the -- in these last days, he saw the two Italian means (ph) that Sisi, who was a young general in the intelligence
under Mubarak, the city has to take in order to fight now, both internal sentiment and the daish and the finite (ph) as in a proof that his policy
was the right. That now a paid is being -- a price is being paid for throwing him out or pushing him out too early for his taste, of course.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: Just finally, sir --
BARAK: -- ability and steadiness.
ANDERSON: I just want to ask you this. Over the past couple days, we have seen an exchange of rocket fire and strikes between the Palestinian Islamic
Jihad group in Gaza and Israeli forces; on Tuesday a cease-fire brokered by Egypt and the U.N. Too cold on the Israel-Gaza border, very briefly.
Do you believe it will hold?
BARAK: I think it will hold until the Israeli election. Sooner or later, it will be resumed. Israel have to resume its deterrence, which had been
lost in the recent two years under the practices of Netanyahu government, including the protection money paid to the Hamas.
We have an interest to put a wedge between the 2 million innocent Palestinians in Gaza and the Hamas and Jihad Islamic leadership, which is
throwing them into total kind of almost nonhumanitarian situation.
ANDERSON: Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister, your thoughts very much appreciated this evening, on a day when we learned the news that
Hosni Mubarak, the former Egyptian president, has died at the age of 91.
Taking a short break. Back after this.
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ANDERSON: Disgraced movie mogul Harvey Weinstein could spend the rest of his life behind bars after being convicted of two felony sex crimes. He's
due to be sentenced on March 11th and faces up to 29 years in jail. Earlier, I spoke to one of the accusers who testified against Weinstein,
Dawn Dunning, and her attorney, Debra Katz.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAWN DUNNING, WEINSTEIN ACCUSER: Harvey Weinstein is now a convicted rapist. It's in my opinion a huge victory for women and I'm hoping this is
just the beginning of a bigger cultural movement.
ANDERSON: And your perspective, Debra?
DEBRA KATZ, DUNNING'S ATTORNEY: It was a very, very significant day yesterday. A watershed in American criminal justice. The fact that the
prosecutors took on a very complicated and difficult case and the jury sifted through the evidence and found him guilty of rape is very, very
significant.
And hopefully other prosecutors will understand that in this #MeToo moment, they can take on high profile, risky cases where there's not forensic
evidence, where time has gone by but juries now believe the power of women's stories.
ANDERSON: Dawn, Harvey Weinstein's lawyers have sought to undermine your credibility, for instance, in saying that you shared only parts of your
story in several television interviews.
How do you respond to this?
DUNNING: I mean, I think it's irrelevant. I wouldn't have been put in this position in the first place if it wasn't for him. This is not something I
wanted to do. This isn't something I wanted to have attached to my name for the rest of my life. No one wants to be a victim of sexual assault.
ANDERSON: A young woman and an aspiring actress, you were, as I understand it, waiting tables in the mid 2000s in New York.
How did a powerful Hollywood producer like Weinstein make you feel?
DUNNING: I mean, like you said, he was a powerful man. And he carried himself that way. He made that very clear in all of our interactions. So
you know, to see the verdict yesterday and to see that money and power don't always win was a huge success.
ANDERSON: The journalist who broke this story, Ronan Farrow, spoke earlier to CNN about what has changed because of this case. Here's what he had to
say. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONAN FARROW, "THE NEW YORKER": We are seeing vastly overdue change in the legal system, in the culture, in the way companies handle nondisclosure
agreements, in the way media companies are willing or not willing to cover up these kinds of crimes when they have evidence of them.
That is all a relief to many of the women who suffered at the hands of Harvey Weinstein. But there's a long way to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: And your reaction, Dawn, to what he just said?
DUNNING: I agree. There is a long way to go. I think this is a very good start in the right direction. I think the statute of limitations, you know,
that's a big problem that a lot of people are working to reverse. So hopefully, you know, like I said, this is just the beginning.
ANDERSON: And, Debra, Weinstein's lawyers have said they will appeal this decision.
What's your sense of where this goes next?
KATZ: Well, of course, they're going to appeal this decision. They continue to insist that he's an innocent man. Thankfully, the jury did not
see it that way. They saw him as a convicted rapist, which is who he is.
So the next step is for sentencing to take place in the United States in New York. And he will be put on trial in Los Angeles as well. So he faces
25 years of jail time on one count and four years that could run consecutively. So he's looking at possibly 29 years in prison.
And so the sentencing has to take place. And then he'll be put on trial in Los Angeles and we expect the same result.
[11:50:00]
ANDERSON: Finally, Dawn, what do you think this decision means for the #MeToo movement and for women not only in the U.S. but women around the
world in general?
DUNNING: I think for people around the world, it will help people feel comfortable to continue to come forward and to report these situations of
sexual violence. I think there will be people more responsive and more willing to listen now hopefully. I think this is a very big cultural change
for us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: That was Dawn Dunning and her lawyer, Debra Katz.
We'll be right back.
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ANDERSON: China responding to reports by CNN and other media that detail the systematic detention of Chinese Uyghurs in northwestern China.
In our report, we showed you leaked documents that appeared to describe intense government surveillance of hundreds of families and tenuous reasons
for putting them in detention. CNN's Ivan Watson reports China is strongly denying these claims.
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IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Officials in China have taken issue with a report by CNN and around a dozen other news
organizations about leaked documents that appear to show the surveillance and roundup of minority Muslims in China's western Xinjiang region.
In a press briefing on Saturday, a Chinese official insisted that most of the 311 people who were listed on the document as having been sent to
internment camps were actually living and working normally in society.
One man at the briefing said he was sent to what the Chinese government calls a vocational training center and says it fixed him. It's unclear
whether the man was speaking under duress.
MAIMATI YOUNUSI, RESIDENT OF MOYU COUNTY (through translator): My mind used to be filled with religious extremist thoughts. Not only did I not
earn a living for my family, I also believed it was against Muslim practices for women to earn money. So I prohibited my wife from working
outside.
After studying at the education and training center, I learned Mandarin, as well as laws and regulations. I also learned the knowledge about business
management.
WATSON: The U.S. government accuses China of rounding up around 2 million Muslims and sending them to what they've called modern-day concentration
camps.
After initially denying there was a mass internment program, Chinese officials eventually admitted the existence of what they call vocational
training in Xinjiang, aimed at stamping out the threat of religious extremism.
CNN has interviewed survivors of some of these facilities.
[11:55:00]
WATSON: They say they were held in crowded, prison-like conditions and subjected to torture.
The leaked document from Xinjiang in CNN's report last week appeared to show detailed government surveillance of at least 311 families in one
county and very arbitrary reasons for sending people into detention, such as for having a beard, or holding a passport without traveling
internationally.
CNN spoke to relatives living abroad who confirmed the authenticity of the details of at least eight of the families listed in the leaked document.
CNN also sent detailed questions to the Chinese foreign ministry and the Xinjiang regional government, but the government still hasn't answered
those questions.
Amid the crackdown and censorship in this part of China, it's very hard to confirm anything independently. CNN's Matt Rivers recently traveled to
report in Xinjiang but was routinely harassed and blocked from moving freely by Chinese security forces.
China's foreign minister recently called reports of the mass detention of Muslims in Xinjiang fake news -- Ivan Watson, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: I'm Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. A very good evening.
