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CNN Goes Inside U.K. ICU; Trump Floats Dangerous Misinformation; "Catastrophic" Economic Prediction. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired April 24, 2020 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:17]
HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Welcome to CONNECT THE WORLD.
We start this hour with the human cost of COVID-19.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've had a telephone to the ear of a gentleman who was dying, so his wife could speak to him. He was sedated, but we would always
assume someone could hear you. The nurses looking after the patient will sit and hold their hand as they pass away. So, they're always with someone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: CNN gives you an inside firsthand look at an ICU unit here in the U.K.
Also ahead, do not ingest or inject disinfectant into your body -- it must be said after Donald Trump speculates dangerously in the White House
briefing room about the potential benefit of doing just that.
And later, debating the lockdowns, I'll speak to a member of U.K. parliament who predicts catastrophic economic damage if the lockdown
measures are not lifted soon.
We begin this hour with a grim reminder of the cost and the sacrifices involved in battling the COVID-19 virus. Across the globe, patients are
dying and they're dying without family members by their sides and doctors and nurses are risking their own lives and their own mental health to save
people from suffocating to death.
At one hospital in Coventry, England, over 170 people died since this has begun.
Nick Paton Walsh was granted access to an intensive care unit in a hospital in Coventry and he joins me now live with his report -- Nick.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Hala, a lot of the debate in public in the open now is about whether there is going to be
economic damage to countries that's longstanding if lockdowns are not lifted. But the real impact of this disease occurs entirely out of most
people's vision. We can't see it, but behind these walls here, you can definitely see it as it kills.
It is startling. As we enter into maybe the second month now of many lockdowns around the world to see this daily death toll, two losing their
lives in 24 hours we're inside the hospital behind me and positively two people recovering, enough to leave intensive care.
The toll on the staff and the patients is extraordinary. It is relentless and, frankly, it's a whole separate world away from the largest debate
raging about had the world can get back to normal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH (voice-over): When, if ever, does it end? This vast hospital is in the U.K.'s second worst hot spot, the Midlands, and has no easy answers.
So, are the London men (ph) here, the living and the dying keep coming. And they fear the second wave may be near.
We look to numbers for comfort, but in this ICU, the odds are about even, doctors say. During the 24 hours we were here, two patients died and two
got out of ICU. In here, its power is in the quiet it imposes.
(on camera): Standing here, you don't see the ferocity of this disease, but the silence with which it kills and also the helplessness of the people
suffering. One doctor wore a body cam during the life saving procedure of proning, turning a patient on their front to ease breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't 100 percent understand why it works, essentially what it does is it changes the distribution of air within the
chest. But also changes the way the blood is distributed within the chest.
If people pass away, it's more often because we have come to the conclusion that they're not going to survive whatever we do rather than them dying
suddenly.
WALSH (voice-over): The hardest to stop, the isolation means patients die here without their family nearby. Masked doctors and nurses are the last
people they see alive.
DR. ROGER TOWNSEND, CONSULTANT, UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL COVENTRY: I've held the telephone to the ear of a gentleman who was dying so his wife could
speak to him. He was sedated, but we would always assume someone could hear you. Even the nurses looking after the patient will sit and hold their
hands as they pass away as well.
So they're always with someone. One of my colleagues confessed and said they were scared, I said I'm scared too. This has gone on, I think the best
we can do is wear the PPE.
[10:05:04]
Keep our fingers crossed we don't get it, yes. So am I scared? No, not scared like I was when I started.
NERISSA CIFRA MANALAD, NURSE, UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL COVENTRY: It's been really difficult shifts wherein I just cried in the shower. Cried in the
shower. I cry at night. I'm going to cry again.
It is very -- I'm scared. I'm just scared and I'm, you know, I'm just basically, like, when am I going to catch this, you know, because, you
know, we're here, we're dealing with patients who are infected. Despite having the PPE, you still don't know, even if you're -- if you go by the
book, there are people still getting infected. So it is just really so scared.
WALSH: This is not over. And it is not even clear if this is the beginning of the end or the lull before another wave.
TOWNSEND: We need to continue with the lockdown we have to stop it spreading. For the next six weeks, we're on stand by.
WALSH (on camera): For another wave?
TOWNSEND: For another wave, yes.
WALSH (voice-over): Still the sick come, worsening and improving.
Jacqueline who delayed coming to the hospital because she feared catching there the virus she already had is improving.
JACQUELINE SMITH, PATIENT: They called the ambulance three times and I kept refusing to come in, I was scared to come in. Oh, my goodness. It is
so tight, you've got somebody sitting on your chest. You're trying to breathe and you're not getting anywhere. It is really frightening.
WALSH: This hospital has had over 170 patients die from COVID. It now has about 170 who have it or possibly have it. A toll leaving them both ready
and cautious about a second wave and a pandemic so riddled with unknowns, it leaves us certain only of how much we need each other.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH: Now, there are so many unknowns about this disease, how many people in various countries, populations have had it, who may have some limited
immunity, exactly how long it will be until a vaccine is available -- quite why it seems to target certain people so acutely and others not. But one
absolutely certainty is the fact that it takes lives with extraordinary regularity. And some of the doctors we spoke to talked about the impact on
them, frankly, often seeing parallels to themselves, young male doctors saying young men brought in here, who seem totally healthy with children
similar to their ages, dying very fast, deteriorating very fast.
So much they're learning behind me here, but one thing clearly admitting to, there is so much they don't know about this disease -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, thanks very much.
Really a moving report there, hearing from the nurse and the doctor firsthand.
Now to the United States, where the coronavirus death toll is just about at 50,000 people dead. 50,000. And President Donald Trump seems to be grasping
at straws to find an effective treatment.
Listen to these comments from Thursday's coronavirus briefing and watch closely for the uncomfortable real time reaction to the comment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether ultraviolet or very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn't been checked, but
you're going to test it. I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do through the skin or in some other way, and I think
you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting.
Right, and then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that? By injection
inside or almost a cleaning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The president there is musing out loud about injecting disinfectant potentially to treat these illnesses.
You saw the reaction there from Dr. Deborah Birx, who is leading the White House coronavirus task force, literally wincing when the president was
speaking.
She was then later asked about this notion that UV light could be used as some sort of treatment for COVID-19.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether ultraviolet or very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn't been checked, but
you're going to test it. I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do through the skin or in some other way, and --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right, that was the wrong sound bite, but essentially specialists, experts, doctors around the world are saying, listen, do not
inject disinfectant, do not ingest disinfectant.
[10:10:01]
It is dangerous to do so. It does not kill viruses inside the body. It will hurt you.
CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joins me now.
So we heard the president float the idea, this prompted the response from the company that makes Lysol in the United States, by the way.
We must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body.
So, Elizabeth, let's make it clear for our viewers, this is a public service announcement, do not do this. It will be detrimental to your
health.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORESPONDENT: Right, Hala, whoever would have thought we would see the day we had to say that people shouldn't
be injecting disinfectant because the president of the United States has suggested it. What an incredibly dangerous thing to do.
Another dangerous thing, not quite as dangerous, but still dangerous, that the president has been doing is encouraging the use of a drug for
coronavirus that hasn't been proved to actually work. The latest study to come out saying it doesn't appear that it does work.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COHEN (voice-over): Hydroxychloroquine, President Trump has been touting it for weeks.
TRUMP: So we -- the hydroxychloroquine is something that I have been pushing very hard.
If this drug works, it will be not a game changer because that's not a nice enough term, it will be wonderful.
COHEN: But it didn't work for very sick coronavirus patients, according to the preliminary results of the largest study to date, sponsored by the New
York State Department of Health.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: From the review that I heard, basically it was not seen as a positive, not seen as a negative, and didn't really
have much of an effect on the recovery rate.
COHEN: The study, done at the University of Albany School of Public Health looked at death rates among patients who took the drug and those who did
not, and found no statistically significant difference.
There was also no difference when patients took hydroxychloroquine plus the antibiotic azithromycin also known as a Z-Pak. Trump has been a cheerleader
for that too.
TRUMP: I just hope that hydroxychloroquine wins, coupled with perhaps the Z-Pak as we call it.
COHEN: The state of New York shared the preliminary results with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
DR. STEPHEN HAHN, FDA COMMISSIONER: It is a significant observational study.
COHEN: The final results of the study which could be released as early as next week will include 1,200 patients.
HAHN: Obviously, you need to wait for the entire cohort of individuals to have been treated with the complete course of treatment to get a full lead
on that.
COHEN: The lead researcher noted that the patients in the New York study who took hydroxychloroquine were already very sick. He said it is possible
the drug could be effective for other groups.
DAVID HOLTGRAVE, STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AT ALBANY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: One might try and use these drugs perhaps on patients who were a
little bit earlier on in the course of their disease or perhaps in a way to try and prevent disease.
COHEN: The New York study is not considered the gold standard. That would be a double blind clinical trial where doctors take a large group of
patients and randomly assign them to take the drug or a placebo, a pill that does nothing. Results of those trials at Harvard, the University of
Washington, and other centers are not expected for months.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COHEN: And we'll have more on those final results when they come in, again, perhaps as early as next week -- Hala.
GORANI: OK, thanks very much. Look forward to that.
How is Europe reacting to what President Trump is saying about considering the idea that injecting bleach or disinfectant into the human body could be
a treatment and also just the E.U. response to this coronavirus crisis has come under some criticism especially in the first few weeks of the
pandemic.
Vera Jourova joins me from Brussels. She's the vice president of the European Commission for Values and Transparency.
Thank you, Vera, for joining us.
I want to first -- one thing you tweet about and talk about a lot is fake news, misinformation. What would you say to Europeans watching this and
listening to the U.S. president who is advocating the idea that, you know, there should be tests conducted by injecting bleach or disinfectant into
the human body?
VERA JOUROVA, EUROPEAN COMMISSION VICE PRESIDENT FOR VALUES & TRANSPARENCY: Thank you very much, Hala, for inviting me for this debate.
While I am telling the Europeans always the same thing, follow the information from the authorized sources, this is not a criticism of Mr.
Trump as being not authorized, but to give the health advice, but we are recommending the European citizens to follow the information guaranteed by
the WHO and by the ministries of health of each member state.
[10:15:02]
And we also have agreement with the big platforms for online information sharing that they should create the necessary space for the trustworthy, a
very viable and reliable information.
This is too serious time for all of us. And we cannot let the unreliable or even dangerous information to be spread.
GORANI: Now, I understand you urged platforms like Facebook and Twitter to combat misinformation. I guess when it comes from a world leader like the
president of the United States it must be difficult for you, right? To tell European citizens don't listen a world leader, listen to other sources of
information.
JOUROVA: We have to rely also on the common sense and the ability to use critical thinking from the side of the European citizens.
We have to create a very simple way for the people to find this authoritative content and what we say, look at the information from the
health institution because these should be able to collect the trustworthy data and to share the information with the public. The trust in information
is very important now and we cannot effort to have the people misled. This is too dangerous now, because health is at stake.
GORANI: Right. You say ignore the U.S. president and listen to verifiable medical sources.
JOUROVA: I am afraid if Mr. President Trump is the only arbiter of the truth in this case, it would be difficult to ignore him, but I would repeat
myself, our advice for the people is follow the sources which are authorized to give the health information or health related information.
GORANI: Let me ask you about the E.U. response, the former prime minister of Denmark, Helle Thorning-Schmidt, was on the program a few weeks ago. She
did not mince her words. She said, in the beginning, the E.U. really dropped the ball in terms of solidarity when it comes to coronavirus, that
Italy asked for help and they were met with silence.
When you look at the response in the initial few weeks of the pandemic, where did the E.U. go wrong in your opinion?
JOUROVA: I think the reaction of the E.U. was very slow. We were all surprised by pandemic which came to Europe at the beginning of March or at
the end of February. The problem was that we have the mechanism for the civil protection for Europe. When some countries are in danger -- in danger
somehow by earthquakes and so on, the other countries help.
GORANI: Yes.
JOUROVA: But in this case, it is, I think, for the first time in the modern history when all the states were affected. And so, there was a lack
of solidarity at the beginning and mutual help, but now it is much better, the states are offering the cities and hospitals and also the medical
equipment and the things necessary to fight against corona and the -- I have to say that corona did not eat the European solidarity. It is very
dangerous moment and testing moment but we are back, Europe is back.
GORANI: Let me -- one of the other things you said was that the E.U. has a, quote, morbid dependency on China when it comes to medical supplies.
What did you mean by that exactly?
JOUROVA: This crisis revealed a lot of things -- some new ones, some old, suspected ones. And one of them is that we are too dependent on the third
countries in this medical equipment, on China, on medical, on India, and it is clear we should be more self-sufficient, more resilient and more strong
in our ability to respond on crisis like that.
So after the crisis will weaken, we will take lessons and one of them is I think that we have to diversify and shorten the value chains and we have to
look into how to make European Unions more resilient.
[10:20:09]
GORANI: OK. Are you at -- have you gone into work? I can see you're in an office or are you working from home?
JOUROVA: I am working partly from home, but I like from time to time to come to the office. Not to see the people, I would love to see some people.
But to have a better technical equipment and to be absolutely sure if CNN calls I can respond. So this is the reason why I am here.
GORANI: All right. Well, good luck to everyone in offices everywhere and I understand what your point about the technical support being certainly more
reliable when you're in an office.
Vera Jourova, the E.U. Commission vice president for values and transparency, thanks so much for joining us.
Just a few weeks ago, not everyone had heard of Wuhan in China. Now the city where COVID-19 originated is very much back in the news, this time for
getting back to, quote/unquote, normal. We'll bring you that.
And I'll be speaking to a pediatric surgeon who helped save this girl's life, one of the first children saved from the coronavirus by a very
complex procedure called a heart-lung bypass. We'll explore that story later in the program.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Well, life in Wuhan, China, is slowly getting back to normal. But it is very much a new normal.
Our David Culver went to Wuhan to see how has life has changed there and spoke with the widow of a doctor who first blew the whistle on the virus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As the folks that live here within Wuhan look to move forward after this lockdown has eased and tried to resume life
as it was prior to the lockdown, knowing it is going to look a lot different. They're also cognizant of what they have just experienced and
for many that was a painful several months. Some of them losing loved ones, others losing their jobs and not sure if they'll have that financial
cushion to return to. And it seems as of now they won't have that -- many of them at least.
However, they're also reflecting on those who early on tried to the sound the alarm here, and that includes Dr. Li Wenliang, who was an
ophthalmologist who simply wanted to alert his friends that there was a SARS-like illness going around back in December. Send a message, that
message got to police, police reprimanded him, silenced him, he wasn't the only early whistleblower to be silenced, and eventually, he went back to
the hospital, contracted the virus, got sick, and died.
Less than a week before he died, he shared his story with CNN.
[10:25:03]
And now being back here, we wanted to follow up with his family. We wanted to hear their side of things, to see if they would be willing it talk.
Here's our attempt at contacting his widow.
We pulled up to the apartment building of the Dr. Li Wenliang. He is really seen as a hero here in China. His widow lives in a building that I'm
looking at just down the street here. We're going to give a call to see if she would be willing to share a little bit with us about this whole
experience and how she has been able to process it.
That was Dr. Li's widow who acknowledged her identity on the phone. We're just in front of where she lives. Part of the concern has been since his
story has been politicized by some here, and outside of China, the concern is that there is more pressure on his family to keep quiet and to simply
not share beyond what the Dr. Li already shared. At least we tried.
Out of respect we did not air the voice of Dr. Li's widow. What you heard there was the change voice of our translator.
But Dr. Li's widow told us that she's simply too busy to talk. She had other things to do and didn't go into much detail beyond that. There is a
lot of fear surrounding speaking out, particularly to foreign media. There is distrust and concern.
And even us being here as foreigners, there is an uncertainty as to what we could be bringing virus-wise into this area. State media focused heavily
open the external threat and the potential that a second wave could be caused by imported cases.
David Culver, CNN, Wuhan, China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Georgia is the first U.S. state to reopen nonessential business businesses. After the break, we'll explore that story, that's -- even
though there is a virus model suggesting the death toll there will soon double.
Plus, the economic effects of stay at home order, our next guest says they could lead to an economic catastrophe here in the U.K.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Well, in the U.S., there are states extending their lockdown measures, like Michigan. They just announced they would extend their stay
at home order until mid-May. And then there are others like the U.S. state of Georgia that are reopening nonessential businesses and the governor of
Georgia, Brian Kemp, is unfazed by criticism that he may be doing this too soon.
[10:30:08]
So, as a result, businesses that require very close contact between individuals, hair salons, tattoo parlors and the like are able to reopen if
they so wish.
Martin Savidge is live in Atlanta with the very latest on reaction there -- Martin.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Hala.
Yes, people here were surprised initially by that list, because, as you point out, it does require close contact. The businesses are open today,
very sporadic as to which ones have. There are a number that could have opened in the shopping center. One hair salon says it will.
And for businesses that are opening, it is definitely not business as usual.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Georgia Governor Brian Kemp's plan to relax some social distancing efforts begins this morning. Owners of barbershops, hair
and nail salons, bowling alleys, gyms and massage parlors can reopen their stores. And next Monday, restaurants and theaters can do the same.
Kemp defending his move to allow some sectors of the state to resume business, tweeting: My team has worked closely with the Trump
administration and our decisions and direction are informed by data and public health recommendations.
This as president Trump tosses out unscientific ideas from the White House podium, last night, raising the bizarre notion of using household cleaners
as a possible treatment for coronavirus patients.
TRUMP: I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection
inside or almost a cleaning.
SAVIDGE: But health experts agree, there is no scientific merit for that suggestion.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: He also said it needs to be studied, actually, it doesn't. We know the answer to this one. The
idea that we with do a trial of some sort and injection some people with disinfectant and some people not and see what happens, I mean, as you point
out, I think everybody would know that that would be dangerous, and counterproductive and not at all moving us in the right direction.
SAVIDGE: Meantime, Illinois extending their stay at home orders through May 30th, with an added requirement, requiring face coverings in public at
the six foot distance can't be maintained.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: We need to keep going a little while longer to finish the job.
SAVIDGE: California's governor asking residents pressing to end social distancing efforts to look at the facts.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: We're not out of the woods yet. I know there's deep desire. People are making calls saying it is time to open back
up. Consider the deadliest day in the state of California, is the last 24 hours, 8.5 percent increase in the total number of deaths.
SAVIDGE: Dr. Anthony Fauci says the U.S. needs to ramp up both the number and the capacity to perform tests in order to safely reopen parts of the
country.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE: I am not overly confident right now at all that we have what it
takes to do that. We are getting better and better at it as the weeks go by. But we are not in a situation where we say we're exactly where we want
to be with regard to testing.
SAVIDGE: But according to Trump --
TRUMP: No, I don't agree with him on that. I think we are doing a great job on testing. If he said that, I don't agree with him.
SAVIDGE: Yet, many state leaders say there is much work to be done.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D), NEW JERSEY: The fact is as a nation, we weren't ready for this as a testing matter. We'll cobble together now up to 86
different sites. But we're still not there yet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: Hala, I want to show you some video that we got of a barbershop that opened up this morning. The door opened at 7:00 a.m. There was
actually a line of few guys at 6:30 in the morning.
You can see that the barber is wearing a mask. But that is about the only thing he's following as far as the state guidelines. He's supposed to be
wearing gloves. You do see social distancing. But what you dent see is he was supposed to be taking temperatures, and then on top of that, asking
each of his guests if they were feeling well, and if they had been around anybody who might be sick.
So it's clear that some businesses are open, they're already not following the guidelines the state said for them to do -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Martin Savidge, I guess we'll see what the effect of this decision is over the next few weeks. Thanks very much, reporting live
from Atlanta.
All right. We like to tell you what is going on around the world with this pandemic and globally more than 191,000 people have died after being
infected by COVID-19. That's the official number so far.
CNN has reporters all around the world and they are bringing us the very latest developments. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Scott McLean in Spain.
More than 300 people have died from the coronavirus every day for the past five weeks straight. That doesn't sound like progress, but the government
says that things are getting better. Two out of the 13 hotels being used as hospital wards have now closed with an eye toward gradually and cautiously
closing the rest of them.
[10:35:05]
And the government has also outlined the rules to allow kids to finally get out of their houses beginning this Sunday. Kids can go out with a parent
for no more than one hour and they cannot stray far from home. Parks and playgrounds will stay closed.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Fred Pleitgen in Berlin where German Chancellor Angela Merkel is now warning
that Germany risks squandering the gains it made in combating COVID-19.
The Germans have loosened some restrictions on public life here after they say they were able to push the pandemic back. Now, Angela Merkel says she
feels that some states here in this country might be going too fast in loosening some restrictions. All this comes as the death tool here in
Germany has now topped 5,000.
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Sam Kiley in Abu Dhabi. Now, this is the beginning of the Ramadan month long feast in this
part of the world over the next 24 hours. Other parts of the Islamic world will also declare the beginning of Ramadan. But wherever they are, the
world's nearly 2 billion Muslim will be facing a different period of reflection and celebration with very truncated evening Iftars.
Almost a whole of the Islamic world, with the one outlier being Pakistan, is under some kind of lockdown particularly with access to mosques being
shuttered. In Pakistan, though, they are saying that Muslims who insist on it will be able to gather.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right, that's your look around the world.
We're seeing today that the U.K. economy has suffered very much as a result of the lockdown and those stay at home orders across the country.
Now, in march, these are figures coming in today, the country had the worst drop in retail sales ever reported, down 5 percent. Food and alcohol,
though, unsurprisingly are flying off the shelves. Actually, alcohol sales in that period up almost 32 percent, more than 31 percent.
Online shopping is also up, but in the enough because clothing and nearly everything else has sharply dropped. And this is hurting the economy and it
will have a knock gone effect on employment in this country.
My next guest says that economic damage from these lockdowns could be potentially catastrophic.
Conservative MP Theresa Villiers joins me now live. She's a former U.K. environment secretary.
So, what would you -- what approach would you support then? Right now, if you were in charge, what would you like to see happen in the United Kingdom
in terms of lockdowns?
THERESA VILLIERS, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Well, certainly, if I'm in charge, I would have the same view as ministers that it can't be lifted as
yet. But what I've been arguing is for a road map to the release of the lockdown because of the crucially importance of finding a way to ensure we
keep the virus under control and save lives. But we draw to a close it is huge damage that is being done to our economy, which is in a medically
induced coma at the moment.
GORANI: Uh-huh.
So you would support the current lockdown strategy, but you would urge the government to release some sort of exit plan from the current lockdown
situation that we're in now?
VILLIERS: Yes. We need a plan for a phased lifting of the lockdown rules. There are -- you know, there is a huge economic package which the
government has brought forward, which is protecting many jobs and businesses, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been very clear there
is no government package anywhere which can protect every business and every job. And there will be people, entrepreneurs, who have a company that
is in difficulty, and if they have the hope that we will see the lockdown lifted in the not too distant future, then maybe they'll be able to handle.
That glimmer of hope can be crucial in mitigating the economic damage that would otherwise be done by the lockdown and having no sort of obvious exit
route from it.
GORANI: I guess there is some experts, some economists even, Federal Reserve economists in the United States who argued that it is really a
false trade-off that when you lift a lockdown too soon, you could hurt the economy even more and if you once and for all shut it down for an extended
period of time but only once rather than risk a second wave, that that was the case for instance when they studied statistics from the Spanish flu in
the United States, that those areas that locked down for longer then bounced back quicker and in a more durable fashion.
Do you accept that perhaps this is not necessarily the trade-off we should be looking at, one between economic growth and health?
[10:40:03]
VILLIERS: I agree that it is not a simple trade-off, of course. Keeping people healthy and tackling this disease and preventing a second spike in
cases is crucial to safeguarding our economies. But the argument I've been making is actually when the predictions that the outcome of this epidemic
were first published, they made assumptions about how people would respond to the lockdown.
Actually those assumptions have been pessimistic and -- has been much higher. My point is that we are committed to this lockdown in Great
Britain, we will all stick to it but actually if we give the hope that some time pretty soon it will start to be lifted in a phased and orderly
process, that will give comfort to families stuck at home and also help ensure that we keep businesses on -- which are on the edge, we keep them
going. We ensure they're able to hold on.
If it goes on indefinitely with no sign of how it comes to an end, then I feel that more businesses and more jobs will head off a cliff and we won't
get them back at end.
GORANI: The doctor who featured in our reporter Nick Paton Walsh's story from Coventry at the beginning of the hour said -- and this is someone who
works on the front lines of the COVID pandemic who treats patients every single day, he says we need to continue with the lockdown that we have to
stop it spreading. So, for the next six weeks we're on stand by for another wave.
So the -- at least six weeks is what really just experts, professionals and people who treat COVID patients every single day are saying is absolutely
necessary.
What is your take on that timeline at least another six weeks?
VILLIERS: I would certainly hope there may be the possibility for a partial lift of the lockdown more quickly than that. But as I acknowledged
at the start of this conversation, you know, we do need to listen to the doctors, to the scientists, and it is clear that it we will be stuck in
this position for the next few weeks. But I'm pressing the U.K. government to do everything it can in terms of testing and the like and tracking and
tracing to make sure as soon as it is safe, we can get the economy moving again. There are huge long-term consequences to an economic downturn. That
has massive impacts on money, health, quality of life and prosperity.
GORANI: Thank you so much, Theresa Villiers, a member of parliament, a conservative member of parliament and a former secretary for the
environment in the U.K. -- thank you for joining us on CNN.
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, very interesting story, one of the first, if not the first child COVID patient has been
saved using a drastic procedure. I'll talk to one of her doctors, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:45:37]
GORANI: At just 16 years old, Karla Duarte, unable to breathe because of coronavirus, was put on a ventilator. But when she still wasn't getting
enough oxygen, doctors took a drastic last ditch step.
And here she is, three weeks later, walking home to loved ones and hugs with just the help of a walker. You can see her here with some of the
hospital staff looking healthy and understandably super happy to leave the hospital.
Joining me now is one of the doctors that helped save Karla's life, Dr. Chethan Sathya, a pediatric surgeon in New York.
Doctor, you used a technique called a heart-lung bypass.
Could you explain what that is, first of all?
DR. CHETHAN SATHYA, PEDIATRIC SURGEON, NORTHWELL HEALTH: Yes, of course. Thank you for having me on.
So this technique is called ECMO, which is short for Extra Corporal Memory and Oxygenation. And as you mentioned, is a form of lung bypass and
sometimes heart-lung bypass. We reserve it for the sickest of the sick patients who are dying on ventilators.
So, in this circumstance, for Karla, it is for a patient whose lungs are so scarred from COVID, she can't absorb the oxygen the ventilator is pumping
into her body. We insert a tube into some of the veins, pull out blood from the patient, put it through an artificial lung and put it back in.
It's a risky procedure. We only reserve it for those who are going to die on a ventilator.
GORANI: And what are the lingering effects of this? Can the patient recover fully?
SATHYA: Yes. You know, survival data with respect to COVID and ECMO is still coming out. Initial reports out of Wuhan suggested that survival was
around 11 percent to 12 percent. We now know according to registry of about 550 ECMOs that have been done worldwide for COVID patients that survival
rate is up to 40 percent.
But just as you're mentioning, there are many complications, that include death, bleeding, strokes. So, a lot of patients have numerous complications
and I'm very, very pleased that Karla was able to survive this and have very few complications as a result.
GORANI: So how is she doing now?
SATHYA: She's doing wonderfully. Just as you see in the video, she's walking with a walker, she's with her family. She's moving without any
support at all. She's eating, growing, so she's done very, very well.
GORANI: Uh-huh. And this isn't for everyone, obviously. This is a drastic, drastic technique and really you would consider this only for patients for
whom every -- on whom every other method of easing breathing and injecting oxygen into the body has been tried, right?
SATHYA: Yes. This is a last ditch effort, we're literally, you know, only reserving this for people who have no other option. But to your point, we
cannot offer this procedure to everyone. As you can imagine, it is extremely resource intensive, very expensive, very risky, and really
patient selection is key here.
So, we need to pick the right patients that will do well with this procedure. Otherwise, you know, it is not something we can offer let's say
to very elderly patients or people with comorbidities because they do not survive even with this machine.
GORANI: Sure.
And, you know, I mean, from the beginning of the pandemic, we heard time and again that it is mainly older, male patients who contract COVID. Why do
-- how does a 16-year-old contract this virus and then end up in such a severe health state that this very extreme technique is used on her? How --
can you tell our viewers, what is the -- when I think of a 16-year-old, I think of a patient or person that is very unlikely to catch COVID.
SATHYA: Yes, again, great question. You know, here in New York City, we really have been emphasizing that, even if you're young and otherwise
healthy, you can get very sick from COVID.
[10:50:02]
So, you're right, I mean, the majority of people that are sick from this are older men with diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. But in Karla's
case, she's an otherwise healthy 16-year-old, and this can happen to anybody.
So, I think the point of this story as well is to show that, you know, you can be totally just walking on the street and get direly ill from this.
So, the stay-at-home orders that we recommend and social distancing are for a reason and really, COVID can affect anybody.
GORANI: I see that she's hugging people. And she's home and she's obviously, you know, with her family and in close contact with others. Is
it because she's already contracted COVID, the assumption is made she's now not contagious anymore?
SATHYA: I don't think we made that assumption yet. That may be the case. But, of course, we don't have the data to know whether or not that's true
for the entire population. She is, you know, just like everyone else, still adhering to social distancing measures within her own home. She may have
people within her own house. I know some of the healthcare workers were giving her hugs but they had their masks on. So, as far as I know, she's
still adhering to social distancing measures.
GORANI: OK, because that is a question. I mean, we hear a lot about the need for antibody tests because, again, the assumption is being made that
once you've contracted COVID and recovered from it that you're less likely then to be contagious and that you're certainly less likely to become sick
again.
How long before we know if any of that is true?
SATHYA: Yes, I think -- just as Dr. Fauci said, it is weeks or months before we know what those antibodies mean. I would refer to the virologist,
infectious disease specialists for that specific question. But that is what I've been hearing.
GORANI: Yes.
SATHYA: And I'm sure you saw we recently ran some antibody tests in New York City and they're suggesting 13.9 percent of the population in New York
City are showing antibodies which means --
GORANI: Yes.
SATHYA: -- almost 2.7 million people here may actually have had coronavirus.
But the significance of that is what you're saying, does that confirm immunity? I think we're weeks to months away from knowing that.
GORANI: But you certainly wouldn't recommend trials be conducted in which patients are injected with bleach or Lysol or anything like that as the
president seems to think is a good idea for a clinical trial?
SATHYA: No, absolutely not. If we thought that had some benefit, we would have already tested that many, many years ago.
I can tell you as a surgeon, we actually see many children and adults who either accidentally swallow disinfectants or try to commit suicide using
disinfectants and the effects are drastic. They either die or they come to see us, they're scarred, their windpipes, their food pipes, they can't eat
for the rest of their lives, require multiple surgeries. So, this can cause life-long misery if it doesn't kill you, and it by no means has any benefit
towards COVID.
GORANI: Dr. Chethan Sathya, thank you very much for joining us, pediatric surgeon in New York.
All right. We are going to show you one very moving moment here in the U.K. during this pandemic I found particularly touching. It is filmed from
inside a car that is holding the coffin of a doctor who died of the coronavirus. Take a look.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
GORANI: Medical staff paying tribute to one of their own at Whiston Hospital near Liverpool in England. And you can see the staff lined the
streets to pay respects to their colleague.
Sadeq Elhowsh was an orthopedic surgeon and father of four who died from COVID.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
GORANI: The medical workers erupted into applause to show their support and honor Dr. Elhowsh's memory.
Well, if you half that number of people showing up to pay tributes to you when you pass away, you have lived a good life.
We'll be right back. Stay with us. We'll be -- we'll have more on the pandemic after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:56:19]
GORANI: Well, a British judge has held the first court hearing in the duchess of Sussex's lawsuit against a British tabloid.
Meghan is accusing "The Mail on Sunday" of a breach of privacy. They published some letters that she had written to her father.
Let's go to CNN's Max Foster, he's in Berkshire, England, with more on that.
So what is the latest in this case then?
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: So, it is a technical hearing really ahead of the full case. So associated newspapers, which represent "Mail on
Sunday" and "Mail Online" are trying to throw parts of the case out before the main trial. So that's what today has really been about.
And central to this is the duchess of Sussex claiming that in five articles, on two -- two in "The Mail on Sunday", three on "Mail Online",
they took a letter she sent to her father, they acted dishonestly in cutting words out of it to change its meaning. And they say as well, she
claims that the newspaper harassed, humiliated her estranged father to dig or stir up a dispute, make it a story.
As you say, it's a privacy case. They're trying to learn the parameters of this today. I've been told by the Sussex's office that the couple dialed in
to listen in today. Associated newspapers denying all the claims and saying they will fight them vigorously.
But there are pieces of evidence coming in which are of interest, of course, to the wider world, to tabloids as well. So, a slight irony they're
giving up some of their privacy in order to win this privacy case.
GORANI: All right, Max Foster, thanks very much.
And it is the first day of Ramadan. So if you are observing that, I hope you have a peaceful day on this Friday. I hope wherever you are in the
world, whatever your faith or however difficult this time period is for you, I wish you all the best.
And I will see you soon here on CNN.
END
