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Has Sweden's Covid-19 Strategy Really Succeeded?; France Details How It Will Begin Easing Lockdown; Some U.S. States Open, Others Wait; Coronavirus Possibly Tied to Rare, Serious Illness in Children; British Government to Test 100K by April 30; Clashes Erupt between Protesters, Security Forces in Lebanon; COVID-19 Highlights Economic Disparity in U.S.; China Is Installing Surveillance Cameras, Sometimes in Homes; Tokyo 2020 Olympics Could Be Canceled; Pentagon Officially Releases UFO Videos. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired April 28, 2020 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:00]
HALA GORANI, CNN HOST (voice-over): Hello and welcome to the program. This is CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Hala Gorani. We're going to take you around the
world this hour once again.
France, Spain, Russia, all updating guidance to their nations, the very latest on the new phase in the pandemic fight.
Also this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI (voice-over): Lebanon pushed to the brink, how long can the strained economy survive under lockdown?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI (voice-over): Then the U.K. reassesses the risk to children.
Is there a coronavirus link to youth ICU cases?
Plus, the postponed Tokyo Olympics might be canceled altogether unless there is a vaccine by next summer.
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GORANI: Well, let's kick off the hour with a progress report. It is, of course, the next phase in this global fight against the pandemic and that
is what to do about the lockdowns all around the world.
The United States, for instance, is reassessing state by state; in Europe, each country is using its own approach. The U.S. is reopening, as I
mentioned, on a state by state basis, even as a model used by the White House now predicts more than 74,000 deaths by early August. That's 25
percent higher than three weeks ago.
Russia is facing a spike in cases as we wait to hear if president Vladimir Putin extends a nationwide lockdown past this Thursday.
In France, one of the hardest hit countries, its prime minister says its nation must cautiously start to lift the lockdown there or risk economic
collapse. Some restrictions will start easing on May 11th. Now more on all of those measures later this hour.
First, I want to look at a country that has used from the beginning quite a approach. I'm talking about Sweden. It is not easing lockdown restrictions
because it never had any lockdown restrictions that were mandatory in place. Businesses are still open, that students are still in school. The
Swedish say their strategy is working.
Now let's compare them to other Nordic countries. Johns Hopkins says Sweden has over 2,000 deaths, 22 deaths for every 100,000 people. Compare that to
Denmark, Norway and Finland, the other Nordic countries, with fewer than 10 deaths per 100,000 people. The deputy prime minister of Sweden joins me now
live.
Thank you, deputy prime minister, for being with me.
Are you satisfied at this stage of the fight against the pandemic that the Swedish strategy was the correct one?
ISABELLA LOVIN, SWEDISH DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you for inviting me. I think we're all aware that this pandemic will not be over
this month or even in -- maybe not this year or even in a few years' time. So this is not the time to evaluate each and every country's individual
strategy.
But we have to see, once we have some type of control over this global disease, and we realized from the beginning that this is not a sprint. This
is a marathon. And the measures that we have taken -- and some of them are legally binding -- and also very strict recommendations on an individual
responsibility basis, they need to be sustained over time.
We need to be very transparent with what measures -- and the risks of being infected and what measures are the most effective ones. And also we have
some responsibility to the population. And we have very strong support also from almost every political party in Sweden that this is the right way to
go.
[10:05:00]
GORANI: So you're satisfied with the way things have gone. Even though, as I mentioned in the introduction, if you look at the numbers -- behind every
number is a personal tragedy and one that affects more than one person -- Sweden has about 2,300 deaths registered so far.
If you compare that to Denmark at 427, Norway at 206, it is a higher death toll, no doubt.
But you believe still though that this is something that, you know, is not a price worth paying but this is an effect of the -- of not having imposed
a mandatory full scale lockdown?
LOVIN: Well, of course, we cannot congratulate ourselves on this death toll and no country can do that. And we need really to evaluate how we're
going to contain and combat this virus globally.
And I can see that our neighboring countries now here in Scandinavia are easing up on their restrictions. And we also hear from their health
authorities that they believe that now they will also have an increase in the number of people infected by COVID-19. So it is very much too early to
say what strategy is the right one. But we also need to understand that we have to have these measures in place for a very, very long time. Sweden is
not easing up on our measures.
On the contrary, we're saying, when our experts are telling us we need more restrictions, we're ready to do that. And the Swedish government is
following very, very closely the development.
We, just a few weeks ago, prepared ourselves for the event that we -- if we need to close down shops, traveling, railway stations or any types of
transportation, we will do that. But it is very important that we take the right measures at the right time.
GORANI: Last one, I mean, you know, so many experts are predicting potentially another wave, another spike.
What has Sweden learned from this pandemic, which could be phase one of the pandemic, that will, you know, inform what strategy you choose to implement
if there is a second wave of this disease?
LOVIN: I mean, our first priority is to limit the disease and the virus. But also the second one is to make the healthcare system work. And so far
we have still available intensive care units and we don't have an overload in our healthcare system.
So little by little we've increased the capacity of the hospitals and the healthcare system so we have appropriate care for those that are infected
but also for everyone else that normally needs help from our healthcare system.
And also, we have -- we're very privileged in Sweden. We already have a very advanced social security system. So what we have provided for each and
every citizen is that, if they feel the slightest symptom of COVID-19, they should stay at home from work and they have paid sick leave from the state
from day one.
And this has also made it possible for many people to stay at home, work from home. And we're limiting the spread of the virus this way. And little
by little we will have to handle this pandemic. And I hope we will get through this but I don't think maybe the end of it is here until we have a
vaccine.
GORANI: Sure. Thank you very much, Isabella Lovin, deputy prime minister of Sweden, for joining us live. We appreciate you sharing the Swedish
experience and strategy with our viewers around the world.
And we continue this world tour. Let's take it to France now. France is planning to ease its six-week long lockdown. This was a different lockdown
from what you saw from Nordic countries outside Sweden. Melissa Bell joins me from Paris with more.
We're hearing from the prime minister about a phased approach to easing the lockdown, only if the numbers support it.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Hala. He just spoke in front of the national assembly to lawmakers explaining that while that
gradual lifting of the strict restrictions with would begin on May 11th.
They would look carefully, the authorities, in the days running up to May 11th to make sure the trend of COVID-19 patients, in hospital, continues to
be on the down.
[10:10:00]
BELL: We have seen it has fallen every day for the last two weeks. Now with the government's looking at is how it can slowly get a sense of
getting this country back on its feet because it is, of course, the economy that is taking a huge hit.
So what he announced is a cautious and gradual approach from May 11th, some schoolchildren can go back to school on a voluntary basis, it will be
staggered in terms of their ages. That is crucial to getting their parents back to work.
But he said even after May 11th, working from home would really be important to continue where it is possible. What they're worried about is
everyone getting back to work on the same day, things like public transport being overloaded.
What he said is -- you can imagine there will be a fair amount of chaos at peak hours for instance, public transport will only be open to people who
have to get to work, whose work is deemed necessary.
So all kinds of details about how when practice is going to work, lots more to be learned still about exactly how long it is going to take,
essentially, a trial period between May 11th and early June to see how it is working, to make sure that second wave hasn't come and to see whether
they can continue on that path towards trying to get France back to being open for business as it was.
GORANI: All right, Melissa Bell, live in Paris, thanks very much.
Now Spain is one of the country's hardest hit by the pandemic and it too is looking at easing some of these restrictions that they implemented, the
public officials, in order to try to slow the very fast spread of the pandemic. Let's bring in our Scott McLean, live in Madrid.
What are they considering in Spain, Scott?
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Hala. What we know is the prime minister wrapped a meeting with his cabinet to finalize this government's
plan to gradually reopen the economy.
Unfortunately, we won't know the details of what that plan entails for the next two hours or so. That's when they're planning on having a press
conference. But we know that nothing is likely to happen quickly with this reopening.
The prime minister has already teased that if allowing the kids out for an hour a day, this week, doesn't cause a new spike in cases, then adults and
even senior citizens will be allowed out to exercise outside beginning this weekend.
The stay at home order, as of right now, will remain in effect until at least May 9th. In the past, the government has said that only some time
after that will things gradually start to reopen. It can't happen soon enough for a lot of workers.
Spain's economy was in pretty rough shape even before this happened. It was one of the most indebted countries in Europe, had a 13 percent unemployment
rate. And we know that one of the last industries to actually restart in this country will be tourism, which makes up some 12 percent of the Spanish
economy.
There is good news, though. That's that broadly speaking the data here looks pretty good. Today is the fifth day in a row there have been more
recoveries from the coronavirus than confirmed new cases, though the death toll still remains stubbornly high at around 300.
One other point of concern is that, even just in the last 24 hours, more than a quarter of the confirmed cases here have been that of healthcare
workers. We know from the beginning of this outbreak, doctors and nurses have long complained about not having the proper protective equipment.
One of the nursing advocacy groups is even suing the government over that very issue. The public broadcaster here says -- is reporting that 37
healthcare workers have died from the coronavirus, though the government has so far refused to put out its own data on that.
GORANI: All right, Scott McLean, thank you very much, live from Madrid.
Going to be tricky. Going to be tricky because you ease restrictions.
But how do you buy clothes in a shop?
Do you not try the clothing on?
Do you not try the shoes on?
Are we going to have to have restaurant tables three meters apart from each other to make sure people don't infect each other if COVID is still not
kept at bay by a vaccine?
So many questions. In the United States, one of the most prominent models for trying to predict the spread of coronavirus, of COVID-19, places the
death toll at 74,000 potentially in the next few months. That's a 14,000 increase from earlier estimates.
This comes as more than a dozen states start to emerge from shutdowns. The director of the study says that easing lockdown restrictions might be
happening too soon. Erica Hill has more on the patchwork approach to easing restrictions across the United States.
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ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dinner and a movie back on the menu this Friday in Texas.
[10:15:00]
GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS GOVERNOR: All retail stores, restaurants, movie theaters and malls can reopen May the 1st.
HILL (voice-over): Occupancy limited to 25 percent. The governor's new executive order supersedes all local measures. The mayor of the largest
city in Texas urges caution, holding up a copy of "The Houston Chronicle" with the headline, local cases more prevalent in at risk neighborhoods.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know people want to open up. I got that. But many of the people who live in these communities, these are individuals who are
serving the tables and these are the people who are riding the bus.
And what they are asking for is not necessarily when we are going to open but, Mayor, tell me what are you going to do to keep us safe?
HILL (voice-over): Denver's mayor choosing to delay reopening as his state moves forward.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not feel that we are ready and we felt that more needs to be done. This virus is not going away. It's going to remain with
us for a while. We need to make sure we are building infrastructure for the long haul.
HILL (voice-over): Mississippi still urging residents to stay home, maintaining its ban on gathering of more than 10 people, yet allowing
retail stores to open today, with restrictions.
In Florida, more beaches are poised to welcome residents as the governor once pushing to reopen, adopts a cautious tone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm less concerned about a specific date than I am about getting it right.
HILL (voice-over): Ohio, one of the first states to take aggressive measures announcing today its stay-at-home orders will remain in place. A
phased reopening begins on Friday. Retail, however, will not presume for another 2 weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have an obligation as governor of this state to do 2 things right now, get people back to work and keep them safe.
HILL (voice-over): In New York, expect some areas, including hardhit New York City, to open much later.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): In some parts of the states, some regions, you could make the case that we should unpause on May 15th. But you have to be
smart about it. There is no light switch, where you flick a switch and everyone goes back to what they are. doing
HILL (voice-over): More than a dozen states have started easing restrictions, as business leaders and health officials warn more testing is
still needed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we're seeing are governors putting together economic recovery teams but it's completely delinked to the public health
component.
HILL (voice-over): Tyson's chicken processing plant in Shelbyville, Tennessee, now closed for deep cleaning amid new questions about the
country's meat supply. The company's chairman warning the food supply chain is breaking, as experts note there is enough food, though the variety may
change.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right, there you have it. That's Erica Hill reporting.
Now the New York governor is urging residents to still be very careful, of course, the numbers do not justify an easing of the lockdown measures in
any great numbers.
But on the other coast in the United States, the West Coast, some Californians seem to be throwing caution to the wind, especially because it
is great weather and they have wonderful beaches there in California. Stephanie Elam joins me now live from Newport Beach.
What is the situation there?
The video and pictures I've seen don't look like people are taking social distancing too seriously there.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I keep saying it is like being in the Twilight Zone, because, on Saturday, where I was driving just to see the
crowds that were coming out, my car said it got up to 93 degrees. It did get very hot on Saturday.
So what we saw happen is people heading out to the beach. Depends which county you were in. Los Angeles County, San Diego County, those two areas,
the beaches stay closed. Here in Orange County, Newport Beach, they said go ahead, you can head back out there.
That's where we saw the huge crowds and also north of Los Angeles County, in Ventura County. I drove along the Pacific Coast Highway, that beautiful
stretch along the Pacific Ocean there. Almost as soon as you got to Ventura County, north of Los Angeles, you could see people were out there.
I've been out here this morning, I can tell you there are a lot of people standing around together, they do not have on masks, just a couple of
people actually have on masks here, which is very different from being in Los Angeles county. All the shop owners have on masks but people going in
there don't.
So it is very different here and this is why the governor of California, Gavin Newsom, came out with strong words. He was saying, listen, we're
weeks away from easing some of these stay at home orders that we put in place, the first state in the nation to put them in place.
And it has made a difference on flattening that curve here in California. He said it is weeks, not months but this whole idea of easing is based off
of the data. And the data is going to be influenced by Californians' behaviors. He made that point because of images we have seen.
However, there was not the social distancing that is supposed to be occurring here.
[10:20:00]
ELAM: With this in mind, the city council here in Newport Beach, they're going to meet later today and discuss perhaps closing down the beaches for
the next three weekends.
Or alternatively maybe shutting down some of the roadways that lead you out here to the beach. I can tell you that it has been kind of cool and rainy,
pretty recently here, which is, you know, our winter here in Southern California.
So as soon as that switch turned to summer very quickly, people are feeling pent up, want to get outside. You can't go hiking, you can't walk on the
beaches in most parts of the state.
So to see this easing, you see people taking advantage of it. And this is why, you see that data showing we'll see the numbers increase with the
number of lives lost because of this.
If people had seen what I had seen when I was in Washington state and people running outside of windows to try to look at their loved ones inside
a nursing facility, where people had an outbreak of the coronavirus, if they knew what it actually looked like, if they would still be out here in
the same way without masks and still kind of coagulating in little groups.
It is really mind boggling, based on what I've seen up close of covering this pandemic.
GORANI: That's why it is so important for journalists like you to bring up those story and those images so that people know what is at stake. Thanks
so much, Stephanie Elam, in California.
Stephanie was saying they got one nice day. Here in the U.K., when it normally rains almost every day, since the lockdown has begun, the weather
has been spectacular. It has been the best weather I have ever experienced in the United Kingdom just as people were told stay home. It has been a
little frustrating, I know, for a lot of people.
Still ahead, speaking of the U.K., doctors here in this country issued an urgent warning over a rare but serious illness in children. They say it
could be linked to COVID-19. We'll bring you that next.
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GORANI: Well, there is a new warning from health officials in the United Kingdom. Listen up if you have kids. COVID-19 could be tied to a rare but
serious illness in children.
Doctors say they have seen a rise in the number of cases of a rare inflammatory syndrome with symptoms of abdominal pain and swollen arteries.
One NHS official says this is a matter of urgency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN POWIS, NHS MEDICAL DIRECTOR: We have become aware in the last few days of reports of severe illness in children, which might be a Kawasaki
like disease, that is a very rare inflammatory condition that occurs in children. The cause is not often known. It can be related to a number of
things.
So it is only in the last few days as I say that we have seen those reports.
[10:25:00]
POWIS: And I know you -- you reported that in the health service journal this morning. So both Chris and I are aware of that, we have asked our
experts, I asked the national clinical director for children, young people, to look into this as a matter of urgency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, our senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joins me live from Atlanta.
Is there a causal effect between the increase in COVID cases and this rare condition in children?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, they're trying to figure that out. We have been hearing for months that COVID is not very
severe in children and they're the ones least infected.
But as you get more and more cases, we may be seeing rare situations, just to throw out a number. If one in a million children have this rare
complication, you need to see a million infected children in order for it to come through.
We may be seeing a rare complication or it is possible we're seeing something that is not connected to COVID, that's what they're trying to
figure out. But it is possible that for some children they develop this rare complication and it is very scary. Kids could end up in the intensive
care unit or worse with this kind of condition.
GORANI: All right. Elizabeth, thanks very much. We'll continue to keep our eye, of course, on that development.
Now staying in the United Kingdom, the U.K. fell silent for a moment today. And that is in honor of the more than 100 key workers, who died after
having been infected with COVID-19.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI (voice-over): The United Kingdom will not be relaxing its coronavirus restrictions anytime soon. The prime minister Boris Johnson
says the danger is still too high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's go to our chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward, she is in London, live.
So I guess the critics of the government say it is all great to hold a moment of silence. But there has been so much criticism directed at the
government that there were no adequate stockpile of personal protective equipment, that there were no masks, that some doctors had to wear bin bags
to protect themselves and that that in part has led to the very high death toll among doctors and nurses, Clarissa.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think that's a big part of it, Hala.
I also think that the government has come under a huge amount of criticism for being really slow to get with the program vis-a-vis testing. And
testing is particularly important for NHS workers who are on the front lines, who are being exposed to huge viral loads, often every day, in the
work they are doing.
The government has obviously made significant headway on that front in terms of at least having the capacity to test many more healthcare workers.
Their target is to be able to test 100,000 people, not just healthcare workers but 100,000 people across the board by later this week, by
Thursday.
But it still appears they're quite a ways off of hitting that target, Hala. Just a few days ago, they were hovering somewhere just below 30,000.
If you sort of compare the numbers vis-a-vis testing, in the U.K., to Germany, you see this huge chasm or gap or discrepancy. And I think a lot
of people here in the U.K. would like to have a better sense of why it is that the U.K. seems to be a little bit behind on the issue of testing, on
the issue of sorting out the supply of PPE.
And obviously everybody very much wants to see a situation in which healthcare workers here are safe and are able to perform their jobs with
the maximum protection that they can be accorded, Hala.
GORANI: All right, Clarissa Ward, thank you very much, at 10 Downing Street.
After the break, people have taken once again to the streets in Lebanon to demonstrate against failing economic policies and corruption. Why some are
calling this the hunger protest.
And the Olympics have been rescheduled once. As the pandemic persists, could the games be canceled altogether?
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[10:30:00]
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GORANI: What began as a relatively peaceful protest in Lebanon overnight devolved into violent clashes. Take a look at some of the video coming to
us from northern Lebanon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI (voice-over): Dozens were injured, at least one demonstrator has died. The family members says he was shot dead by security forces.
Protesters burned tires in the streets, threw Molotov cocktails at banks and other buildings.
They are furious that the soaring cost of living and the failing economy and what they say are failing -- politicians that failed them, corrupt
politicians that have mismanaged the economy for decades.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Arwa Damon joins me live with more.
You can see from the images the sheer desperation of the protesters and in some cases the desperation of the security forces who, when they're told by
demonstrators we're hungry, the security forces say to them, we're hungry, too. It is an entire country that is in agony here.
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is, Hala. And, look, Lebanon had its economic problems well before the outbreak of
COVID-19. The economy was already struggling. The currency was losing value, people were already desperately trying to cope back then. There were
those protests that began.
You'll remember back in October of 2019, because of the economic situation, because of the consecutive inability of governments to actually address the
needs of the people, do what needs to be done, instead of putting their own political and financial gains first.
And all of this has to a certain degree culminated in what we're seeing happening now across the country but really focused in the northern city of
Tripoli, which is Lebanon's second largest city but among its poorest.
The anger there among the people is palpable. They are targeting banks, they are going after other institutions, torching them, venting this
building anger and frustration that has been compounded by the lockdown that took place over the last two months, due to the coronavirus.
People are chanting, we are hungry. That protester killed, just 26 years old, is being called the martyr of hunger. If you look at the statistics
that are coming out, they are very startling, Hala.
Prior to the outbreak of COVID-19, the World Bank according to the minister of social affairs was estimating that 45 percent of Lebanon would be below
the poverty line in 2020.
Now the ministry of social affairs itself is saying that 75 percent of the population is in need of aid. And there were meant to be aid distributions
but they have been delayed, again, why?
Because of politics. So when the Lebanese population looks at its leaders, it sees this government that is standing in the way of the people not only
moving forward financially speaking.
[10:35:00]
DAMON: But now literally when it comes to trying to put food on the table, add to all of that, of course, Lebanon has a high refugee population. And
the International Rescue Committee is estimating that 87 percent of refugees living in Lebanon now also need food, now are also struggling to
eat.
And at this stage, the government has yet to put forward any sort of plan that is going to actually address the needs of the people, needs that are
becoming more dire by the day.
GORANI: Arwa Damon, thank you very much. Arwa is live in Istanbul.
I was just asking for the population of Lebanon, because in relation to its population, Lebanon hosts the most refugees of any country. And as Arwa was
saying, this is putting an additional pressure on its economy.
We have been talking a lot about reopening, about the impact of all of these shutdowns on the world economy and on economic growth in the United
States. The U.S. government is trying to ease the hardship of American consumers by putting money directly in the hands of Americans.
Is the money enough, is it going to the right people?
The U.S. president says yes and the economy will come roaring back in the months ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We are the greatest economy ever, the history of our world and I had to turn it off in order to get to a point where we are today. And now
we're making a comeback and I think we're going to have economically from an economic standpoint next year, an unbelievable year. And I think that
you're going to see a fantastic fourth quarter and third quarter will start to build. But the second quarter, obviously, you're going to have GDP, lack
of growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, the economist and Nobel laureate Paul Krugman joins me now.
You say it doesn't have to be accompanied by severe hardship but you say it is because the federal government is not diverting the resources and funds
where they need to go.
PAUL KRUGMAN, ECONOMIST: That's right. If you look -- what we're doing on paper, some of it looks pretty good, enhanced unemployment benefits that
Congress passed are a very good step.
But they're run through state unemployment offices and the states are overwhelmed. A lot of states deliberately made it hard to apply for
insurance. And so at this point, we probably have only one in three or less of the people who lost jobs are actually receiving any benefits.
And the same is true, small business loans, not by and large going to the businesses that really, really need them. So we're -- and we're not aiding
civil governments but the -- but right now what is happening is that stuff that looks good on paper in terms of implementation is not providing
relief. So there is an enormous amount of suffering taking place.
GORANI: What needs to change?
KRUGMAN: Well, if I were president, if I were actually thinking of -- if we had anybody other than the current management, a lot of these benefits
should be run through special federal agencies.
In Canada, they have an unemployment scheme not too different in principle from what we're doing to deal with this. But it is being run by the
Canadian federal government. There is a web portal, a hot line, people are getting benefits in a matter of days in Canada.
Here, people have been waiting weeks and weeks and weeks and still seeing nothing. So those are the kinds of things. We did not have any attention
given to -- Congress has allocated the money, how does it reach the people who need it.
GORANI: Yes. Also criticism that corporations would be getting bailouts and that that money could potentially be better spent benefiting consumer
and ordinary wage earners across the country.
Do you agree with that?
KRUGMAN: Yes, although I think the bigger problem is not -- there is going to be -- spending trillions of dollars on short notice, there is going to
be waste, fraud and abuse. Some undeserving entities will get -- receive money.
The biggest problem is that the small business loan, small business -- a lot of it -- is not -- it is being run through the banks and the banks are
servicing their big important customers first. And that's why we see so much of the money going to giant restaurant chains instead of to failing
small businesses.
GORANI: Can I ask you, I mean, in the beginning of this pandemic, we heard people say COVID is the great equalizer, you know, the virus doesn't
discriminate.
[10:40:00]
GORANI: It hits and sickens rich people, poor people, young, old, all sorts of ethnicities but really it is highlighting the great inequalities
in some economies. What is a minor inconvenience or sometimes even a major inconvenience for some is a life altering tragedy for someone else.
How do you -- how do you sort of even things out a little bit if you look at it from a macro perspective here?
KRUGMAN: Well, yes. It is tremendously unequalizing as it turns out. It turns out if you are, you know, a well paid white collar worker who can
work from home, lives in a relatively not dense location or, you know, a second house in the country you retreated to, you're way less likely to get
this.
There are some rich people who are getting -- who are dying from it. But it is disproportionately the least advantaged who are being hurt.
On short notice, there is not much we can do to change the way in which people live. But again, we could make the really -- erring on the side of
making sure that money gets to people who need it.
We're -- I'm less concerned with the fact that some undeserving corporations are getting money than I am concerned with the fact that lots
and lots of deserving workers are not getting money. And that's gratuitous hardship. That does not have to be happening.
GORANI: What will be the economic impact if we compare it for instance to 2008, 2009?
KRUGMAN: Oh, it is clear already, we had a -- we're almost certainly already in a slump twice or three times as deep as what we had in 2008-
2009. The Congressional Budget Office says 36 percent unemployment, they may be understating the case.
It is really horrific. The question is about duration, how quickly do things come back. That's partly a question of the epidemiology.
And I have to say, the worst news I've seen this morning is from Germany, which has handled this very well, began the limited reopening and we're
seeing the infection rate -- that's the number I talked about -- has gone from 0.7 up to 1, which is the red line.
So if even Germany is having trouble reopening without setting the pandemic off again, what prospect is there for the rest of us?
And then, so that's the first -- and then all of the financial damage being done to families and businesses now is going to create a long hangover for
the economy.
GORANI: Last one, you mentioned Germany. Germany universally praised for how it handled it. They tested more than other countries. Their ICU
capacity, they were never overwhelmed.
If you compare the U.S. to Europe, to Asia, where did you think was the most logical approach in terms of balancing the healthcare risks versus the
economic effects?
KRUGMAN: You know, there really isn't very much of a balancing issue there. The exponential growth, what happens with the pandemic, gives you
very little wiggle room. It is not that you can say let's trade off a little bit more infections for a little bit more economic growth because
very quickly it explodes. So the economic trade-offs really barely exist. You have to lock down until the thing has -- until the infection rate is
way down and --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: But look at Sweden.
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: That's a good example of a middle of the road approach.
KRUGMAN: Well, they're having a lot of deaths. Relative to some neighbors, they're having a lot of deaths and their economy is not doing a whole lot
better. The Swedish story has been -- it turns out Swedes, being a kind of society they are, people did a lot of social distancing without being
ordered to.
So in many ways the fact that the Swedish government wasn't as strict as other governments has mattered less than people thought.
But for the United States, the important point is that we're nowhere close. We by no metric are we remotely ready to start lifting restrictions
anywhere in the country.
And what I'm afraid of is we will anyway. And that's a very scary prospect, not just for the disease but for the economy.
What happens if three or four months out from now we see this thing exploding again and we're forced to a second lockdown?
GORANI: Paul Krugman, thank you very much for joining us. It is always such a pleasure talking to you. We really appreciate it.
KRUGMAN: Take care.
GORANI: Coming up, the Olympic Games have only been canceled three times in history.
[10:45:00]
GORANI: Will the coronavirus pandemic make Tokyo 2020 the fourth?
Plus if you're under quarantine in China, you can expect to be watched, in some cases even from inside your own home.
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GORANI: The 2020 Olympics in Tokyo have been postponed to 2021. More than a year from today. That's an unprecedented move in peace time. The games
were canceled three times before. But as the pandemic persists, it is looking like the games may not happen at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I think it would be difficult to hold the Olympics without an effective vaccine being developed. I am not
saying that Japan should or shouldn't host it but I suspect it would be difficult to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The Tokyo Olympics president went even further as we mentioned, saying the games could be canceled altogether if the pandemic continues
into next summer. CNN's Will Ripley is in Tokyo.
That's a long way away, 2021.
When do they make this decision then?
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think that's still -- that decision is still many, many months away. Considering how long it took, you know, Japan
to actually acknowledge that they needed to postpone the games in the first place, they dragged their heels.
They have been, you know, working on this for years. Invested tens of billions of dollars. But you have this growing chorus of skepticism that it
is going to be safe to hold a large scale sporting event, even over a year from now, with people from 200 plus countries, when it is not even a
guarantee there will be a vaccine by then.
Some vaccines are never developed. And so there are a lot of ifs. And it certainly doesn't bode well for Japan's significant investment and
everything they have riding on a successful Olympics.
GORANI: Right. They do.
But if the decision on whether or not to cancel is several months away, what is the -- what would be the impact of this cancellation on all the
actors involved in a huge event like the Olympics in Japan?
RIPLEY: Well, you have prime minister Shinzo Abe, who has basically staked his entire Japanese economic revival on a successful Olympics, triggering a
huge surge in tourism to this country. Now because of coronavirus, tourism has all but evaporated at a significant cost to this country's already
stagnating economy.
You have all of the athletes who have been training, who could lose their shot at competition. You have billions of dollars in broadcasting rights.
Presold tickets, advertising revenue out the door.
To have the Tokyo 2020 president speaking so frankly and saying that if the pandemic is not under control by next summer, they might have to cancel, it
is really striking and it is making a lot of headlines here in Japan.
[10:50:00]
RIPLEY: The Tokyo 2020 organizers tried to dial it back and say they're still working very hard on a successful Olympics. But that's what they were
saying before they announced the first postponement.
GORANI: Fingers crossed. I hope events scheduled for 2021 will go ahead. If they don't go ahead, it means we will be in this state of suspended
animation for another 1.5 years, practically. And, yes, I hope the world is able to move on. Of course, it depends on entirely on infection rates.
Thank you very much. Will Ripley, live in Tokyo.
In China, surveillance is already a part of public life. People are watched crossing the street, entering shopping malls and eating at restaurants. Now
cameras have been installed just outside the doors of people's homes, those who are under quarantine. There are reports in rare cases of cameras being
installed inside people's houses.
You see some examples of these newly installed cameras on your screen now, obtained by CNN digital producer Necter Gan.
NECTER GAN, CNN DIGITAL PRODUCER: We have spoken to several people who told us about their experiences with the cameras, one in Beijing and another in
Guangzhou.
One said authorities came to install the camera from a cabinet wall inside his apartment on the first day of his home quarantine. He didn't like the
idea and he tried to complain to the mayor's hot line. But officials told him that she should understand and cooperate.
So he had to live with a surveillance camera inside his living room for two weeks. He said it had a huge impact on him mentally. He couldn't stop
worrying about the camera, even when he went to sleep in his bedroom. And he wouldn't dare to make phone calls because he didn't want his
conversations recorded.
And in the end, when committee workers came to uninstall his camera at the end of his quarantine, he said they told him he could keep the camera for
free as a souvenir. But he was so angry about having to live under its gaze for two weeks that he took out a hammer and smashed it.
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GORANI: All right. Elsewhere like in South Korea and Poland, people under quarantine are being tracked with phone apps. Hong Kong has people wearing
electronic bracelets to track their movements, bracelets you're not supposed to take off.
And they also call you at your home and you're supposed to take your temperature a few times a day. That's how Hong Kong is managing the issue
there.
You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. Still to come --
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that thing?
GORANI (voice-over): What exactly do we know about these UFOs and these videos?
We're getting some information. We'll bring you that next.
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GORANI: All right, not sure this is exactly what we needed in the middle of a pandemic but we have officially now released videos of UFOs. The
Pentagon has officially released three short videos of what appear to be unidentified flying objects. The videos have been floating around the
Internet for a few years now.
[10:55:00]
GORANI: You may remember this is cockpit video, by the way and the Defense officials wanted to put an end to the question of whether those videos were
genuine. U.S. Navy infrared cameras recorded the flying objects, moving quite rapidly now.
If you were hoping that officials would be able to shed some light as to what these UFOs are, you will be disappointed because they don't know what
the objects are. Just that they're unidentified and that they're flying.
The pandemic changed everyday life for children around the world. When asked to draw the things that they miss most, it is very interesting, the
answers end up being quite simple. Robyn Curnow has this story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LYDIA, NEW YORK CITY RESIDENT: My name is Lydia. I'm 10 years old. And I live in New York City.
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Lydia, like many children around the world, is on lockdown, a scary time for kids even with family members
around because they know that life just isn't the same.
LYDIA: I miss being social with people and I drew this picture of me selling lemonade.
CURNOW (voice-over): When asked to draw what they missed the most while riding out the coronavirus, two brothers in Hungary said they missed
playing sports. For this young lady in Sri Lanka, it was dancing. A trip to the zoo in Prague, even if it means wearing a face mask.
This young man is 10 and lives in New Delhi. And like most growing boys, he misses the food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, was like all my favorite restaurants. I do Starbucks, KFC, McDonald's.
CURNOW (voice-over): Perhaps the images depicted most were of family and friends -- figures like grandma and grandpa, once regular in young lives
and the ones that 6-year-old Tom, in Germany, says he wants to see.
This big sister in Tokyo showed us a picture of her friends and she says she feels anxious because she doesn't know what will happen next.
Little Hala (ph), in Damascus, said this is a portrait of some planets, her brother and the coronavirus. She says she spends a lot of time drawing and
plans to keep doing it until it's safe to go out again.
Indelible images crafted by children that somehow seem universally true no matter how old you are -- Robyn Curnow, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, we'll have a lot more on the coronavirus pandemic in the next hour. I'm Hala Gorani. I will see you next time. Stay with CNN.
How have you been working out and keeping in shape at home?
Do you want me to show you?
Yes, I do.
OK. This is the gym. Honestly, I've been doing a lot of body weight stuff, the core, using the bike trainer. I feel like dancing is a good way to
exercise and express yourself and it is good for your soul. Guitar.
Something you've been working on at the moment?
I've been wanting to learn, one of my favorite songs right now. I'm drowning in the light when I fight this you're the one I trust
Thank you. That was so lovely. I hope the weekend is watching an paying attention.
I hope he's not.
Viewers in the United States and the around the world. I'm John King in Washington. This is CNN continuing.
END
