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Cases Up In U.S. States As Social Distancing Eased; Top U.S. General Apologizes For Walk With President Donald Trump; How British Police Tactics Differ From The U.S.; British Poet Addressing Police Brutality and Racism In United Kingdom; WarnerMedia CFO On "Gone With The Wind" Decision. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired June 11, 2020 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Hala Gorani. Two major stories this hour. U.S. COVID cases top 2 million with numbers climbing weeks after
states reopen will governments rethink lockdown? And America is still in crisis the nation's highest-ranking military officer is apologizing for his
role in this photo op, even as President Trump digs in over antiracist protesters' demands.
We begin with a dire prediction for the United States, as the country reaches another staggering milestone in the COVID pandemic. The number of
COVID-19 cases has now surpassed 2 million, far above any other country, and as states across the U.S. ease social distancing measures, new hot
spots are emerging.
One medical expert warns that if cases keep increasing at the current rate there could be an additional 100,000 deaths by September. That's even
higher than what some other models had predicted. Now some healthcare facilities are already operating at near capacity. This is raising some
concerns as a number of hospitalizations continue to rise. We're not out of this pandemic, not in the least. CNN's Erica Hill has our story.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sobering new data about Coronavirus-related hospitalizations up in at least a dozen states since Memorial Day weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was our highest day yet of hospitalizations. I continue to be concerned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: In Arizona 79 percent of the state's ICU beds are currently in using, the Director of Health Services asking hospitals to activate their
emergency plans and reduce or suspend elective surgeries. The overall trends alarming health officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD BESSER, PRESIDENT AND CEO, ROBERT WOOD JOHNSON FOUNDATION: What concerns me is do we have the systems in place to ensure that a community
doesn't lead to a cluster, doesn't lead to an outbreak, doesn't lead to a healthcare system once again getting overwhelmed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Across the country 19 states reporting a rise in new cases over the past week, including Florida, Georgia and South Carolina among the first to
reopen much of the Northeast seeing a decline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO, (D-NY): It has to be done right, and we have to stay disciplined. The evidence is all around us what happens if we're not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: New CNN polling shows Americans are split when it comes to returning to their regular routines and whether the worst is behind us. Women are
more likely to exercise caution just 38 percent say they're ready to resume those routines and yet the country moves forward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've missed it. This is the reason I live here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Miami's beaches reopened this morning. Students in Vermont and Rhode Island will be back in the classroom this fall. NASCAR fans can watch the
action in person, with masks and distance this weekend in Homestead, Florida. The U.S. government says it will fund and study three experimental
vaccines this summer, including one from Johnson & Johnson, set to begin human trials next month.
GORANI: Well, I spoke last time with our Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen and asked her whether some states have perhaps reopened a
bit too soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, when you open up and then two, three, four weeks later you see spikes in cases and spikes in
hospitalizations and spikes in deaths, that kind of gives you your answer. Now the question is, are we okay with that?
I mean, some states are basically saying, you know what? This is what happened. We think opening up is important for all of these X, Y, Z
reasons, we're going to continue. Although they might not put it that way implicitly, that's what they're saying when they continue with their
efforts to open up.
GORANI: Some confusions or at least give an opinion about what distance we should keep between people who don't live in the same households. Here in
U.K. it's two meters. It's virtually impossible to respect two meters in your anywhere indoors. Other countries say one meter is enough. What is the
consensus?
COHEN: Right, unfortunately, as you just said, there is no consensus. Different countries have decided different things, one meter versus two
meters. Here in the U.S. they say six feet. I will say that when I am out and about and I'm not out and about nearly as much as other people are, you
can do six feet.
I mean, it is possible, when you go grocery shopping, if you want to get that gallon of milk that's on the shelf and someone else is at the shelf,
you sit and wait until that person walks away. Obviously in all situations it's not as easy as what I described, but it is possible. Unfortunately
there isn't a consensus about one versus two meters, but I think it's safe to say the farther away, the better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:05:00]
GORANI: Now the government here in the U.K. is under fire as health experts say the death toll could have been half of what it is, half if the
government had acted just a little bit earlier. Let's get more on that with Scott McLean is here in London. So we're at 50,000 deaths in the U.K. which
is really a jaw dropping number but some health officials and experts are saying had the government acted sooner, we could be seeing fewer, a much
smaller number of fatalities.
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, 50,000 deaths and climbing, another 151 deaths from the Coronavirus to add to the tally today. The U.K. did
implement a lockdown, but it came in March that was more than a week after Spain took similar measures, it was more than two weeks after Italy took
similar measures.
U.K. has really paid the price. As I said more than 50,000 death, its death rate per million is actually pretty similar to Sweden's, which didn't have
a lockdown at all. It hasn't even closed schools on mass.
Yesterday one of this country's leading epidemiologists said that if the U.K. had it started its lockdown just one week earlier it could have halved
the number of deaths. The British Prime Minister Boris Johnson was asked to respond to that yesterday, here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We did make the decision at the time on the guidance of sage including Professor Ferguson that we thought were
right for this country. I think that the questions that are posed are still unanswered. There's a lot of data we still frankly do not have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCLEAN: So that leading epidemiologist is Neal Ferguson and he used to be on the Board of Scientific Advisers that was giving advice to the U.K.
government on how to move forward. He no longer advises the government, though, Hala, because after a newspaper revealed that he himself had
actually broken the lockdown rules and so he was forced to do resign.
Perhaps what he said yesterday to that Parliamentary Committee about the death poll being halved if the lockdown was moved up shouldn't come as big
of a surprise to what's though and that is because almost three weeks before the U.K. decided to go into nationwide lockdown, this nationwide
stay-at-home order.
That Committee of Scientific Advisers had written that if there was household isolation and social distancing measures it could reduce the
death toll compared to the worst-case scenario by about one third. What they did not spell out at that time though was when the U.K. should take
action.
GORANI: And there's this debate over how much to social distance? In the U.K. right now it's two meters, that's the recommendation, other countries
one meter, even a third group 1.5 meters. But pubs and restaurants are saying if we can't open, we'll basically go bankrupt if you tell us 2
meters is the requirement here.
So is there talk of reducing it so that restaurants and pubs can open by the way, to be completely transparent. We all want to get out of our homes
and go to pubs and restaurants and bars and the like. Is this going to be possibility?
MCLEAN: Yes, it's a great question. And to Elizabeth Cohen's point in the last segment, Hala, she said the further the distance obviously the better.
There's no magic number of what will keep you safe, but obviously further is better. But there are some realistic considerations taken into account.
That's that two-meter social distancing rule is really hampering the ability of businesses to reopen, when you can only fit may be two or three
people in a small shop in Central London you're not going to get a whole lot of business.
When you can only have a couple tables on your pub patio and by the way there are not even open yet as you know, you're not going to get a lot of
business. And so government source has told CNN that two top Cabinet Ministers, the Chancellor and the Business Secretary are keen on scrapping
that rule altogether in the interest of getting business restarted, or at least helping get businesses restarted.
What could happen as sort of an interim solution is that the U.K. could go down to the one-meter standard which is recommended by the W.H.O. The Prime
Minister was asked about this yesterday and he seemed to urge a more cautious approach, saying he would like to see the number of new
Coronavirus cases daily start to drop before taking any kind of measures like that, Hala.
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Scott McLean. The European Commission says China and Russia are behind campaigns to spread misinformation about
COVID-19. The accusation comes in a new report which says Moscow and Beijing ran what it calls "Targeted influence operations and misinformation
campaigns in the EU its neighboring and globally" according to the report.
According also to the report that aim was to polarize public opinions and make countries look better in the contest of the pandemic. Russia and China
are denying the accusation.
[11:10:00]
GORNI: Now one European Commission Vice President told reporters if there's evidence, we should not shy away from naming and shaming. Let's speak with
her now Vice President Vera Jourova joins me now from Brussels with more. So talk to me about the evidence that the European Commission has that
Russia and China and your estimation are behind these disinformation campaigns on COVID.
VERA JOUROVA, EUROPEAN COMMISSION VICE PRESIDENT FOR VALUES AND TRANSPARENCY: Hello, thank you for inviting me for this debate. While our
external extend service has sufficient evidence not only about the Russian influence, which is long-lasting, because this is nothing new which we have
published yesterday regarding Russia.
They also have it in the military doctrine that they use this information as a means of influencing the other countries, especially the EU having the
specific strategy on each of the countries, and using the vulnerabilities which are in our different societies or different states.
And on China, it was a new announcement we have observed a lot of different news and messages which were trying to promote the ways China managed the
Corona crisis, and also indicating that the EU member states and EU such was not able to manage and these kinds of things.
Also, just to give you an example, there was a wave of disinformation relating to the origin of Coronavirus, that it was spread by NATO soldiers,
it have U.S. origin. And these are messages which many people have a tendency to believe. So we have to react, and open and inform the public.
GORANI: So you're saying - let's focus on Russia for a moment, this information campaign, can you provide examples of what was being done?
JOUROVA: This was one of them. I will not spread myself the disinformation, which we have registered which is coming from Russia. For a long time
Russia has specification strategy, specific or individual member states, especially the eastern - East European companies have registered a lot of
concrete disinformation campaigns targeted to their citizens due to the history especially sensitive in Baltic Sea countries, Latvia, Estonia,
Lithuania also in center and other East European countries there's increased activity.
We have to respond and we are responding by delivering and providing the people with facts and figures, and we also yesterday announced that our
communication will be more productive, more assertive where we have to defend our democracies, and the way we are tackling COVID-19 and to give
the people a true picture.
GORANI: I'm just trying to get to a specific example, because I think viewers watching this in the EU would want to know. I mean, is it on
Twitter? Is it on Facebook? Are these troll factories in Russia or other countries that were coming up with kind of disinformation to sow chaos in
the EU? Is that what you are saying?
JOUROVA: The disinformation is always very well designed. That is usually a part of the truth and a big pile of untrue information, which is well
designed to have a potential to sow anxiety, fear, distrust to institutions--
GORANI: Sure.
JOUROVA: --and this is especially dangerous on times when we rely on European Democratic Institutions, on the member state institutions, which
try to manage the COVID crisis. To sow the distrust among the citizens in a time when the people are sitting at home in the lockdown and the vast
majority of information is coming to their households through digital means. And through the platforms, it's especially important to take some
action against the influx of this information.
[11:15:00]
JOUROVA: And, as I said before, we have a lot of evidence and also the platforms should report on a monthly basis to the public what they
witnessed happening in their systems about a coordinated disinformation activities.
GORANI: Just a quick last one. Facebook is not removing some of the Donald Trump's posts and is not fact checking them either. He posted about a 75-
year-old man who was pushed down by police officers in Buffalo, accusing of it being ANTIFA. Do you think that the European Union should compel social
media companies to remove posts from the U.S. President if they're factually incorrect and spreading misinformation?
JOUROVA: I would not like to answer in relation to Mr. President Trump's posts, but we have the principle that the illegal content which is hate
speech and speech which can incites violence should be re removed because it is prohibited by the EU member states laws.
The disinformation which has the potential to do the public harm should be fact checked, but left there so that the people can have a multiple choice,
so that they can compare the facts and declarations of the politician politicians - not only politicians, but we politicians when we use these
platforms and use these channels of information to address the citizens.
We should count with fact checking and we should count with that somebody will ask whether it's true or a lie or whether it is not dangerous what we
are saying. So this is a very democratic and open source. I trust that we are doing the right thing.
GORANI: All right. Thank you, Vera Jourova. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. We appreciate it.
JOUROVA: Thank you.
GORANI: And a quick check of the DOW Jones right now. It is down this hour. It has defied expectations over the last several weeks, because the
economic news has been horrific, the unemployment news has been horrific and yet stocks continue to climb. Today, however, they're down 1,000 points
plus, the DOW is hovering just below 26,000.
Still ahead, a stunning apology from the top American General for his actions of President Trump's controversial photo op outside of a church in
Washington D.C. last week, he says it was a mistake to accompany the President. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:20:00]
GORANI: We have seen it here in U.K. and elsewhere in Europe it is happening also in the U.S. Protesters are toppling statues of leaders with
a history of racism and supporting slavery. Like this one of Jefferson Davis he was President of Confederate States during the U.S. Civil War.
This happens last night in Richmond, Virginia.
On the other side of the country, in Portland, Oregon crowds protesting the death of George Floyd massed outside the City's Justice Center some
breached a fence before police pushed them back. In Minnesota, fired police officers Thomas Lane was released on $750,000 bond. He was one of the
scenes as another officer pinned a dying Floyd under his knee that's his mug shot from the day he was arrested.
Now really a significant development here, the top American General is apologizing for his appearance with President Donald Trump ahead of his
photo op outside of a Church in Washington D.C. I'm talking about the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley.
He was wearing combat fatigues when they walked outside of the White House. You'll remember protesters had been forcibly removed with teargas before
the President's much criticized appearance. Here is what Milley had to say to his fellow troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, U.S. JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: As many of you saw the result of the photograph of me at Lafayette Square last week that
sparked a national debate about the role of the military in civil society. I should not have been there. My presence in that moment and in that
environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics. As a commissioned uniformed officer it was a mistake that I
learned from. I sincerely hope we can all learn from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, I want to bring in Joe Johns. And Joe what interesting, too, is he expressed solidarity with the protesters, and acknowledged the
centuries of injustices that have been committed and perpetrated against African Americans.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: It is very interesting, and he took a lot of blowback if you will for that appearance, simply because
the United States military is supposed to be nonpartisan, apolitical, and there you have the top guy from the Pentagon out at this demonstration
seemingly on the side of the President.
So it created some discomfort in the United States, because our professional military sees itself as a cut above those military
organizations in certain countries where dictators use them to their own devices so quite a moment here for this General, the President's General,
to say what he said, Hala.
GORANI: Let's talk also about other big cultural shifts in the United States. Let's talk about NASCAR in particular, because this is an event
which I didn't know you could still bring confederate flags to NASCAR races, but NASCAR is now saying that they are not going to allow that.
The President, though, is digging in on the renaming of military bases that are named after confederate military leaders and the like. How is that
debate and conversation going in the United States?
JOHNS: Well, a couple things there. It shows you the cultural shift that's going on in the United States. NASCAR is very Republican, 91 percent of
white, supportive of the President, so much so that the President even attended one of NASCAR's biggest events back in February, flying the plane
Air Force One over the arena, driving his car, the beast, around the track, and really putting on a show for the NASCAR audience he sees as part of his
supporters.
It turns out NASCAR is saying no to the confederate flag, saying they will no longer fly that flag at events, in part because of the an African-
American race car driver who drove a black lives matter car in one of the events, but NASCAR also saying in the statement that they want to use
inclusiveness as one of their big ideas.
On the other hand, the President, getting into a tiff here in the United States over the question of whether military bases ought to be named for
Confederate General who supported slavery in the United States Civil War? They are ten U.S. army bases in the United States named after these
Confederate Generals who were seen by many as individuals who betrayed the trust of the United States, and decided to fight against the United States
government in the Civil War.
[11:25:00]
JOHNS: Now, some at the Pentagon, and some of the top people at the Pentagon have even said they're interested in entertaining that discussion,
talking about it, and perhaps moving forward while the President himself has said he doesn't want to entertain that idea at all, and simply will not
talk about it.
He says he thinking those bases ought to keep the names of the Confederate General, so there's a real cultural divide. By the way, Hala, just up on
Capitol Hill, Republican Senate Committee has voted just today to remove the names of the Confederate Generals in about three years, but that bill,
of course, has a long way to go, Hala?
GORANI: Joe Johns thanks very much. Coming up on CNN, we'll speak with a British Poet who is using his artful words to address the racial and social
issues in the U.K. Here's some of his award-winning podcast in just a bit. I'll be speaking to George the Poet after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: The Mayor of London says attacks on police will not be tolerated after two police officers on patrol were allegedly attacked. Take a look at
how it happened? Metropolitan police say this video is authentic. The officers say they were flagged down for an alleged assault.
They were questioning people when one of men began to resist. After a struggle, one officer was pinned to the ground, the other officer
intervened. Two men were eventually arrested on suspicion of assaulting police. CNN has tried to contact the suspects for comment.
That incident comes shortly after a British Rapper spoke about police tasing his father. Wretch 32 posted this video on the incident on social
media and despite this encounter, some U.K. police say they are not like American police whose tactics have sparked protests around the world. CNN's
Nic Robertson has that story.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: As police rush into a house looking for a suspect, they taser a 62-year-old father on the stairs
all of this during lockdown. The police body cam video emerging as global anger over racism and police rises in the wake of George Floyd's killing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this moment in time we are being singled out and targeted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:30:00]
ROBERTSON: A son of the victim, not involved in the police incident is Rapper Wretch 32.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WRETCH 32, BRITISH RAPPER: I've grown up in a household with my dad and my uncle and I've watched them fight against police brutality in my whole
life. And I now have to have the same conversations that my dad, my uncle, my grandparents had with me. That means there's no progression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: Police dispute Scott's version of events say an internal review has revealed no misconduct, a statement released by London's most senior
minority officer says that progress in dealing with racism in the police has been made over recent decades.
And what appears to be an effort to dealing anger at George Floyd's death, to anger at British police, says no comparison can be made between British
and U.S. police forces, because here he says, they police by consensus mostly, not force.
His point, the heavily armed tear gas-wielding cops, who bow down on peaceful protesters near the White House last week, so President Trump
could pose, bible in hand, for a photo op outside eluted church, wouldn't be the tactic of choice in the U.K. The subtext for protesters here, don't
react to British cops, as if they would.
By contrast with many of the U.S. counterparts, British police mingle with peaceful protesters. Officers armed with little more than handcuffs,
gauging the crowd's mood. Out of sight downside streets, a heftier force is on standby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN ROGERS, POLICE SCIENCES PROFESSOR: The result has been completely different. There's more consensus, more peaceful demonstrations, so I think
- I think you know that there are two quick reactions to go to war a paramilitary reaction to deal with people in demonstrations situations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: But getting to this point hasn't been easy. Just a decade ago, a police killing sparked riots heard around the world, where the toughest
policing lessons were learned was Northern Ireland. Confrontation and perceptions of police bias exacerbate and prolonged the three-decade
conflict there.
Today police are still fire bombed and shot at, but are more likely to draw a line, sit in their armed wagons, than respond in kind. Even so, today's
protests in London still offer a very real glimpse of how quickly tensions can escalate. At the heart of it still, anger protesters are being ignored
a police problem yes, but at its root a political one, too. Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
GORANI: With heated incidents like that, it's apparent that U.K. is also suffering from issues surrounding racism. British Spoken Word Artist George
the Poet has been addressing those issues among others through his podcast. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE MPANGA, GEORGE THE POET: As of 2019, quite a few people from the early grave scene have written their way into early retirement. What no one
has been able to do is clean up this "Dirty Environment". I'm thinking that might be where I come in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, as you see there, George has just won a Peabody Award for his podcast, very prestigious award, and the brilliant wordsmith you just heard
George Mpanga joins me now via Skype from right here in London. Thanks for joining us. Congratulations first off on your Peabody. That's amazing.
Let me ask you about these protests that have really ignited a global movement after the death of George Floyd. Talk to us about how the British
black experience, how is it similar and/or different from the U.S. African- American experience?
MPANGA: Well, the interesting difference - thanks for having me on the show. The interesting difference between African-America and the Black
Britain is that Black Britain comes from a lot of different places in the world, a lot of Caribbean community over here came in the '50s, the African
community started to grow from the '80s onward, whereas the African- American community have maybe a more collective history in the transatlantic slave trade, which brought a lot of them over and those
families developed from there.
[11:35:00]
MPANGA: But we have similarities. Black people over here are twice as likely to die in police custody. Black males in particular are over-
represented at every level of the criminal justice system. Over half of all young people in jail are black, minority ethnic.
We also have the morbidity crisis among our black women, five times more likely to die in childbirth. So what we have is a society that produces
equally racist outcomes as the U.S. does.
GORANI: The legacy is different, the outcome, though, the treatment of minority and black communities in the U.K., a very painful and unequal
line. You say white people love black culture, but they don't respect necessarily the black people. Could you explain? What do you mean by that?
MPANGA: I don't think that's the direct quote of mine, but I do share that sentiment.
GORANI: I'm paraphrasing.
MPANGA: Oh, cool, cool, cool. While societies do embrace products of black cultures, and they have done for as long as black people have had access to
recording equipment. So you'll know in the stateside experience that since the '20s, young black teenagers in particular in urban settings are
pioneered genres from Jazz to Beat Pop, R&B, Rock & Roll, and eventually Hip-Hop, and what did the genres going to do experience amazing commercial
success across white society.
We have a similar phenomenon over here. It's crazy because these trends happen in isolation, but we do have home-grown British genres that emerge
specifically out in the black community in the 70s it was - in the 90s it was - and in the 2000s that became grind. That's now grown into a very
healthy U.K. rap scene.
These are all black innovations that have gone on to see great commercial success from communities whose trials, who is struggle is not understood.
It's a crazy situation.
GORANI: What needs to change in the U.K.? And how do you go about it?
MPANGA: A long time I think the black community over here has no choice but to build the economic momentum that would allow them to develop their own
strategies, independent of the sympathy and the accommodation of people who are outside of their pressures. So to be clear, I do appreciate the allies
we have in this, but it's very important we develop our own economic momentum.
GORANI: How do you do that? I mean, what needs to change? If some of the discrimination is systemic, the system has to change in what ways?
MPANAG: So I wouldn't - I don't put my money on system change. That's a very big task to bank on. But I do think what black people can start to do
is recognize the reality that we are a political bloc. We might not have the same cultures and same histories, but like I said, we have the same
outcomes.
When it comes to the police, we have the same dangers. So if we recognize that we are a political bloc, we can start to form our own political
agenda, much in the way that the black focuses are ability to do in African-American society, which we're not at the level yet in British
society.
GORANI: And your podcast, I listened to a few episodes today. "Have You Heard George's Podcast?" it's so creative and so fascinating. I mean, it
combines the spoken word with music, with, you know, some acting out of scenes. It's just so incredibly fresh and lovely. Where were you when you
heard you won a Peabody for it?
MPANGA: Thank you so much. When I heard, I guess I was at home. I'm not somewhere here usually doing my work. That's the beautiful thing about
winning these awards, right? When you're doing the work, you don't think about how it's going to be praised?
You're just trying to get your message out there. So I really honor the Peabody Jurors. They had to agree unanimously to let us win. My producer -
is amazing and this is a good time for all of us in that respect.
GORANI: All right, thanks very much George Mpanga. George the Poet who is the Host of "Have You Heard George's Podcast?" Thank you so much. I really
appreciate having you on the program and congrats again. Coming up, Supermodel and Fashion Icon Naomi Campbell will join us for a conversation
after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:40:00]
GORANI: Well, the fashion industry has had a long tenuous relationship in history with racism from questionable catwalks, to who fronts magazines
covers and campaigns, and now the industry is having to reexamine its role in the antiracism conversation.
The day after George Floyd's death Supermodel and Activist Naomi Campbell tweeted she was "sick and tired of people dying needlessly, harassed and
humiliated" and that she thought these challenging times would bring people together, but that Coronavirus has brought out more racism in a major way.
Naomi Campbell has spoken candidly about racism and her own experience as a black woman in the fashion industry before, and she joins us now live from
Los Angeles. Thank you Naomi for being with us. Last time we spoke, you said - great thank you so much. Last we spoke you said equal pay for
minority and people of color models--
NAOMI CAMPBELL, MODEL & BUSINESSWOMAN: Yes.
GORANI: --was the next frontier. I mean, it was quite - actually you talked about it before this movement. How has this reignited the conversation?
CAMPBELL: Nothing has changed for and how I feel about equal pay for models of diversity across the board. It's not changed so it's something that I
keep speaking up about. I feel this is very important time for things that were not working the way they were. This is the time for everyone across
the board to ask the things that they want.
GORANI: How do you go about changing things? This is a global movement now- -
CAMPBELL: It's a conversation - it's always been a conversation. It's never been an accusation. It's never been pointing fingers. It's not about
embarrassing anyone, but there comes a time when how many times you're going to keep asking, let's talk, let's talk.
It was only a natural progression that if you finally are going to put the models of diversities on the runway and in ads and in campaigns, it's only
natural that it should be paid the same as you pay some others kids that are on television and who are not really considered to be models. The real
models should be paid the same.
GORANI: And is it about having more people of color and black people in positions of authority? Because they're the once making the decisions,
they're ones deciding pay scales and the rest of it in terms of remunerations. Is that one of the solutions, do you think?
CAMPBELL: I've said that before also, in terms of we should have a seat at the table. Instead of always when things - that confusion, there's a
conflict and there's, you know, a hurry of mixed ramble and get people together to fix this right.
[11:45:00]
CAMPBELL: Let's get educated now. No, let's get educated before so that it prevents it from happening. And basically, you know, I know everyone is
trying to do their best. I understand, but in my business, this has gone for long enough. I've gone through it, people think oh, because you're
successful in your career that you haven't, but I have. Even up until recently it happens.
So it's not something I call out, because I want to raise to each talent, I want to break through and I don't want it to stop me from getting where I
wanted to get. But not everyone is so strong or everyone is so able to deal with that rejection and feeling not to be who you are because of the color
of your skin. I'm talking about not just black. It's all diverse. Let's remember that. That's important for me to get across. It's all models.
GORANI: I find it interesting that someone at your level, I mean, you're a household name around the world that still you feel that the color of your
skin is something that is, what, that is impacting how some people interact with you? I mean, when you say that's something that happened to you
recently, what do you mean by that?
CAMPBELL: Well, there's a certain country that wouldn't use my ad because of the color of my skin. I spoke about that. There was a particular hotel
in France that wouldn't let me in because of the color of my skin. You know it happens, kind of it happens. As I said, I'm not going to point the
finger, but I'm going to make the change. If that's what I can do, I will do my hardest to make the change in any way that I can.
GORANI: Well, one of the other things - now when you look at--
CAMPBELL: That's what - sorry. Go ahead.
GORANI: Got it. You know, the very - the younger crop of famous supermodels, if I have to think I'm seeing and we're seeing a lot more
people of color and women of color and black women on the cover of magazines than say 25 or 30 years ago.
But still the names that I know that come to my mind, the household names are still largely white models. What needs to be done to change that? To
have them be more kind of front and center and become the household names?
CAMPBELL: It's not disrespect. I mean, I just see the difference of true model and someone that handed on a plate that doesn't really want it, that
can decide to put down fashion shows, because it's not necessary, they don't need the money.
People who have - you have to be grateful and always never rest on your lawyers. You never know how low has been enough. And you always have to
keep trying to better yourself and giving your best. I was raised in the way of you have to do 150 percent you have to be better than better.
You have to challenge yourself each time to do better than yourself because you know you have to find a way to reinvent. We've never had, and we never
were able to, you know be able to rest on our laurels. We had to keep going, finding new ways. That's going to change.
GORANI: You're the global face for Pat McGrath Labs, which is a black makeup artist who launched this line, and I'm seeing a lot on Instagram and
social media, makeup artists, some of them are white, to be fair to them who are making a huge effort in highlighting and promoting black-owned
beauty brands.
CAMPBELL: Now - why not before?
GORANI: That has to be maybe part of the next frontier.
CAMPBELL: I mean I'm very proud and honored to be the face of Pat McGrath, the first face of Pat McGrath labs and Pat McGrath's brand. I'm very proud
that, you know, Pat's from South London like I am. I felt when I had first met Pat there were not many black makeup artists that I worked with in this
business that over the course of 3 to 4 years.
I could pick them on one hand, so to me it was finally a relief when I met Pat to sit down, be comfortable and know that I was going to be made the
right shade of my skin. And I'm very proud of Pat and what she has done her makeup was incredible. She embraces all diversity, all communities, and
it's really a best thing and honored to be.
[11:50:00]
CAMPBELL: Of course I would have supported Pat regardless. That is just basically she's my chosen family. I get to work with such a great lady, who
is doing such great things in the beauty industry. She's an artist in her own right.
GORANI: Naomi Campbell thanks so much. Naomi is joining us live from L.A. I appreciate having you on the program.
CAMPBELL: Thank you so much, Hala.
GORANI: She's been tweeting about what's going on in the United States. Thanks for joining us with your thoughts this morning. The good feelings
we've been seeing on Wall Street have apparently come to a screeching halt.
Take a look at the DOW Jones Industrial average right now. We're down more than 1,000 points, I believe let me check that here there it is almost 1200
points down 4.3 percent. The NASDAQ and the S&P 500 are also down. Alison Kosik, talk us through what we're seeing today.
ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: The difference of couple of days makes Hala. We were just talking about the NASDAQ hitting a record high of
10,000 just a few days ago. We were talking about the S&P 500 entering positive territory for the year. Well, that is now all gone.
So we are watching stocks plunge. Part of this is because of what Fed Chair Jay Powell said yesterday. He really gave a gloomy outlook to what is
expected to happen to the economy as we see Americans live side by side with the Coronavirus crisis?
For one, he expects unemployed by year's end to still be high at 9.3 - this is in spite of keeping interest rates low and this despite the fed putting
out trillions of dollars in support, not just to the stock market in many in direct ways, but the economy as well.
Also concerning investors Hala, this worry about a second wave I think investors are coming to terms that this very well could happen, so you're
seeing investors sell today to try to take some gains of the table or may be make up for some loses in the past, Hala.
GORANI: All right. I mean is the overall markets have not reflected the economic misery that we have seen? Do experts warn that perhaps there's a
little bit too much enthusiasm going into stocks when there shouldn't be considering just how dire the unemployment numbers are?
KOSIK: Those are very good points and a very good question. We've been talking about this disconnect in the markets versus what's happening in the
economy for months now? I mean, we've seen as I said the NASDAQ reaching a record high during a time when we're seeing a pandemic that literally shut
down the economy.
A lot of what was going on here to boost the market tire was the support from the Federal Reserve pouring trillions of dollars basically into the
economy. It was the stimulus package and also on the hopes that Congress could pass another stimulus package.
Those hopes, though, seem to be fading that could also be an underlying worry that we're seeing today sort of seeing that reckoning coming to the
market. Also, what we saw in this disconnect between the markets and the economy is the fact that the markets are often forward-looking.
They see things way beyond what's happening now in the economy, which means investors often have the belief those things, will get better. Well, today
we're seeing a reversal of that. Once again we're seeing that as we get those grim numbers in unemployment picture over a million more Americans
filing unemployment claims as of last week, which shows these layoffs continue, even as millions of others, as we learned in the previous week
had to work.
So the concern is for many economists that I've been talking with is that we're going to wind up as seeing what's known as a jobless recovery, where
we're going to see the labor market really under a lot of stress, even though we see the economy sort of inch forward. Of course the right to all
this is that second wave that is worrying many Americans and clearly investors today as well, Hala.
GORANI: All right, thanks, Alison Kosik. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:55:00]
GORANI: The CFO of our parent company of CNN's parent company WarnerMedia says it is time to hire more black creators to ensure that black voices are
heard and amplified. Pascal Desroches was speaking after WarnerMedia decided to temporarily pull "Gone with the Wind" from its streaming service
HBO Max over some long-running concerns about its racist depictions of some characters. Desroches says well, we can't change the past the future begins
today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASCAL DESROCHES, CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER, WarnerMedia: "Gone with the Wind" is one example of a film that portrays blacks in an unrealistic and
unflattering light. There's not much we can do to change the past. What I think as a company our obligation is to do, is to tell stories in a much
better way about the black experience.
How do we do that? I think it's important that we hire black creators that actually can tell the story in a very authentic way and make sure that
blacks are being portrayed much more realistically than they have historically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, the movie will return eventually along with, "A discussion of its historical context" Thank you all for watching. I'm Hala Gorani in
London. The news continues on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: --White House on his way to Dallas, Texas, leaving a trial of controversy in his way quite frankly.
END
