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Iran State Media: Top Nuclear Scientist Assassinated Outside Tehran; Live Pictures of Scene of Scientist's Killing. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired November 27, 2020 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: I'm Becky Anderson in Abu Dhabi. We are following breaking news at this hour. Iran's military chief

promising severe revenge after his country's top nuclear scientist was assassinated. Iran's state media reported it happed earlier on Friday, east

of Tehran.

No word on who is behind the assassination, but Iran's Foreign Minister in a tweet describes the killing as cowardice with serious indications of an

Israeli role. Israel's Prime minister has yet to comment on the assassination.

For its part, the United States officials tell CNN that they are closely monitoring the developments. We have all angles covered for you. Let's

bring in our team. International Security Editor, Nick Paton Walsh, is in London. Pentagon Correspondent, Barbara Starr, in Washington, and Oren

Liebermann is in Jerusalem. Nick, let's start with you. What do we know specifically at this point?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Well let me describe the scene for you a little bit here. We are talking essentially about broad

daylight on the outskirts of Tehran. A verdant area known as Absard, a town there in which it seems the car or cars in which this gentleman, Mr.

Fakhrizadeh - Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, was driving with his security guards came under attack. You can see at the scene there damage done to the car.

State media in Iran are suggestion an explosion may have been involved in this attack. That might make sense if you are trying to incapacitate the

security around Mr. Fakhrizadeh, and also, too, if you look at that car there you can see in the windscreen the possibility that gunshots were also

used to attack him. This would be frankly in keeping with previous assassination attempts we've seen inside of Tehran.

This is an embarrassment for Iran be and (ph) absolutely no doubt this is one of their most prominent nuclear scientists. Not a name you know unless

you'd be listening to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu talk about Iran's previous nuclear activity or you're study U.S. State Department

document released late last year talking about how this man was the repository of what Iran knew for nuclear weapons program.

What's important, Becky, here is the timing. Yes, this is brazen. Yes, this is embarrassing, but it sends a signal frankly to Iran's hawks perhaps that

maybe there'll be those who will try and derail any diplomacy between Iran and the incoming administration of Joe Biden, the U.S. President-Elect.

Remember, Donald Trump tore up the nuclear agreement very publically, put maximum pressure as he called it on Iran with sanctions.

Such high tension in the region like we haven't seen for a number of years, and it's this gap of about 50 days now in which many are concerned the

tension in the region could be exacerbated by those hawks who don't want to see peace, who don't want to see the sanctions taken off Iran, and who feel

that any possible latitude that Tehran gets will simply lead to them continuing to grow as a presence in the region here.

But remember, this is an embarrassment to Iran. A very senior official under great security in the capital itself after Qasem Soleimani, their

most prominent military chief, was killed earlier this year.

That didn't necessarily start the conflict that many Iranian officials talked it might do. They promised great revenge then, too. It's going to be

interesting to see precisely what this leads to here. My hunch is they'll probably put it in a bit of a box and move on. Becky -

ANDERSON: Described as the face of the nuclear program, Oren, the foreign minister today describing the killing as cowardice with serious indications

of an Israeli role. What are we hearing where you are?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Officially the response from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office is that there will be no comment

on the killing, the assignation of Dr. Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, and that's no surprise.

Whether Israeli was behind this or not, Israel rarely comments on something of this magnitude, especially when it comes to Iran, especially when it

comes this close to Tehran with somebody so high up in the administration and somebody so high up in the nuclear program.

That's because Israel's policy is generally not to give Iran any other reason to retaliate, not to be seen boasting about the action, and for that

reason Israel remains quiet. It's easy to see why Iran And Javad Zarif would simply point the finger at Israel. It was Israel's policy according

to other countries, according to the accusations to target Iranian nuclear scientists in previous years.

And if you look at those and if you look at this there are similarities certainly in the importance of the target to the nuclear program, and

Netanyahu has made it clear it is his goal to stop Iran from ever advancing its nuclear program to the point of a nuclear weapon, and Israel would

seriously consider any opportunity to stop the advancement or at least slow down the advancement of Iran's nuclear program.

As you've pointed out, this is not the first time Netanyahu has every said the name Fakhrizadeh. In fact, he mentioned him quite extensively in April

2018 when Netanyahu revealed the stealing of Iran's secret nuclear archive, a speech he gave in English because analysts saw that as a speech directly

targeting President Donald Trump and trying to convince him to leave the Iranian nuclear deal and begin the maximum pressure campaign, all of which

Netanyahu supported.

When Netanyahu laid out what was essentially the work of Fakhrizadeh, he said that he was in charge of Project AMAD, which from the late 80s to the

early 2000s was Iran's attempt to build, design, and test five nuclear war heads, 10 kilotons each, to be placed inside missiles.

When that was wound down in 2003, it was Netanyahu who said he then went to SUPAN (ph), the division within the Ministry of Defense, that essentially

did the same thing and continued to advance Iran's nuclear program according to Netanyahu.

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Netanyahu had his name up on screen and also had his picture up on screen, so no doubt Israel and the Israeli intelligence community were well aware

of who this was. Information, I think it's safe to say, they almost certainly shared with their U.S. counterparts and perhaps other western

intelligence counterparts.

Netanyahu said specifically in that speech, remember that name Fakhrizadeh, that's one of the lines that stuck out from that speech. As of this point

there is no indication the idea of his going on (ph) high alert in the north either along the Lebanese border or along the Syrian border.

That's one of the things we'll watch out for, and there's no indication of troops or reinforcements. That being said, Israel may simply believe that

Iran is not going to respond imminently. Israel's belief has always been that Iran would pick a well thought, planned out response if it so chooses

to retaliate against Israel.

ANDERSON: Oren, thank you. Iran's top scientist, a man who was (inaudible), as I understand it, by the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo

back in April of 2018 as well. Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon. As we understand it, Washington keeping an eye on what is going on. What else do

we know at this point?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, so far no official word from the Trump administration just like the Israelis, but that doesn't mean

things aren't happening. As you say, Becky, watching very carefully behind the scenes, looking for any intelligence threads (ph) about what might come

next, if anything.

The U.S. security wager, if you will, is that the Iranians will not engage in a direct provocation with the United States, at least. And that is very

important because the military assessment is there would have to be that kind of provocation for the U.S. to engage in a strike against Iran at this

point. That's pretty much the advice that President Trump, broadly speaking, has been given.

Any kind of Iranian retaliation could come - as Oren pointed out, down the road. But the U.S. particularly concerned because Iran has about 3,000

ballistic missiles that it could aim and target against U.S. and allied interests in the region. And once you get in to that kind of thing then

you're talking about a major conflict.

As for President Trump engaging in any kind of attack against Iran's nuclear facilities - again, not likely, we're told unless there is some

kind of provocation - unless there is a truly imminent threat.

That Natanz centrifuge facility, one of the key potential targets, but also one of the toughest. You have to engage in repeated strikes by manned

bombers to destroy it. It's being constructed deep underground and it is well inside Iran, which means getting past Iranian air defenses. So the

calculation about going against Iran, just simply hasn't changed.

ANDERSON: Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon. To all of you, I thank you very much indeed for joining us. Let's bring in our CNN Global Affairs

Analyst, Jason Rezaian and "The Washington Post," former Tehran Bureau Chief who was of course held in Iran for more than 500 days.

Let's just pick apart what we've just been discussing here, Jason. What do you make of what we understand to have happened, and the timing of this

assassination?

JASON REZAIAN, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Becky, I think first and foremost over the past decade we've seen repeated assassinations of Iranian

nuclear scientists - usually assumed to be by - done by Israel.

Obviously the timing is very unique and interesting as we're about to see the end of the Trump administration - an administration that has been

particularly tough on Iran, but also in locked step with U.S. regional allies Israel and Saudi Arabia, who - neither one of which has made any

bones about the fact that not only do they have severe problems with the Islamic Republic, but that they'd like to see it go.

ANDERSON: A number of people who I would consider decent experts on the region, and particularly on Iran, specifically pointing out that the target

of this, perhaps less the face of the nuclear program after all - a very big character within Tehron's nuclear program. But I mean, it can continue

without him, perhaps the target being Joe Biden, the incoming president with the new Iran file just 50 days from now.

REZAIAN: I believe that this is a real attempt to make it as difficult as possible for President Elect Biden to reengage with Iran. Also, as we heard

before the idea that Iran would retaliate against American assets in the region is probably pretty slim. That being said, we have two very distinct

power seats in Iran.

You have the forward international leaning presidency and foreign ministry that deeply believe in the need to engage with the west, and then you have

the revolutionary guard who wants to cut off the possibility of any sort of outreach. So, you know, it is an interesting situation in that, you know,

the animosity between Riyadh and Jerusalem and Tehran plays into each other's hands pretty well.

ANDERSON: We know that Pompeo has been doing the rounds in region and indeed was with the Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman in Saudi Arabia just

in the past week or so. We'd also very infamously now in the -- visited the settlements in the Golan Heights in Israel are what many say is the sort of

the dying embers of his job as it sounds of president.

This may be a -- with a view to a run of the presidency in 2024. Be that as it may, he's had -- lightly had conversations about Iran in the past 10

days or so with local stakeholders, and I call them local. I am of course in Abu Dhabi here in the UAE in the region. I want to refer you to the

words of Mike Pompeo, in May of 2018. A speech entitled after the deal a new Iran strategy.

Pompeo said, and I quote him here "Just last month, Iranian Foreign Minister Zarif told a Sunday morning news show, "we never wanted to produce

a bomb." This claim -- this claim would be laughable if not for the willful deception behind it.

Not only did the AMAD program exist, the Iranians took great care - though, as we can see now, not enough care to protect, hide, and preserve the work

of Mohsen Fakrizadeh Mahabadi and his gang of nuclear scientists."

That speech of course made just after Benjamin Netanyahu name checked this scientist in an infamous now speech that he made himself. This has been a

man who has been in the crosshairs, as it were, of this anti-Iran alliance now for some time.

REZAIAN: Certainly, and I was in a room that date that Secretary of State Pompeo gave that speech. He's always had an unnatural obsession with Iran

throughout his years in government, still does, and I find it unlikely that he would've been unaware of any Israeli or other regional attempts to go

after Fakhrizadeh in this way.

I think it's worth mentioning at the time, I called that speech silly because it was a list of a dozen demands to the Iranian leadership in order

to reengage each and every one of those demands, Iran made clear was a non starter. So, ultimately we're back at square one and I think -- the real

important thing here, what's going happen in the next 50 days and what sort of situation will President-Elect Biden inherit in his first day in office.

He's got a national security and diplomatic team that has more experience directly dealing with Iranian counterparts than any administration in the

last 40 years, since the inception of the Islamic republic. And, you know, I for one am always one that hopes for the cooler heads to prevail, but the

hot heads are going to try to make it difficult over these next seven weeks or so.

ANDERSON: Jason, as you talked, we are looking at live images of the scene there just east of Tehran, the scene of an assassination today -- earlier

today at around 4:00 local time. The details are pretty sketchy, although we are learning from media in Iran reporting that a car exploded close to

the victim's car and there are reports of gunfire.

I want to talk to you about what happens next because you brought this up and it's extremely important at this point. The argument from Iranian --

from anti-Iran hawks, as it were, is that any attempt by the Biden administration to get back into this JCPOA deal needs to be conducted

alongside what they would call, you know, the nuclear deal 2, which is addressing Iran's malign behavior in the region and indeed its ballistic

missile program.

Now, we've just been speaking to our colleague, Barbara Starr, who says that this is something, of course, Washington, whether they -- whether they

knew about what was happening today in Tehran or not, something they will be very worried about because there are something like 3,000 ballistic

missiles from Iran, you know, in a position to take out U.S. and regional allies' infrastructure.

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So what does happen going forward? You've alluded to the worry about what happens in the next 50 days, and we've spoken loosely about what the Biden

administration is likely to take on.

For example, what is going on behind the scenes as far as Tehran is concerned in building its Washington file just as Biden is taking on the

Iran file at this point. And how does a presidential election next year in Iran play into all of this?

REZAIAN: Well, I think it plays into it very much. And you know, to go back to the first part of the question, if we look to, you know, 2016, when

the -- when the JCPOA was implemented, until the spring of 2018 when President Trump pulled the U.S. out of it, it was working to do what it was

intended to do.

The inspections were being carried out. Iran was adhering to the deal. And you didn't see the type of regional adventurism that we are seeing once

again, now that the U.S. has left the deal. Those ballistic missiles that you -- that you talked about, you know, Iran used those on the -- on the

Saudi oil fields late last year, and then on a U.S. -- towards a U.S. military -- or a base in Iraq that held U.S. military personnel.

So you know, I think we have to go back to that fact that the deal was working. And you're right. The folks in Tehran who are in charge and who

are involved in making and carrying out foreign policy, they might look very different come May of next year. So I think from the Iranian side,

from the Iranian president's side, there is going to be a real push to re- up negotiations quickly.

But I think the Biden administration will have to wait and see whether or not they think that Rouhani, the president of Iran, is a lame duck and

whether or not allies of his have a chance of, you know, coming to office come next spring. So there is still a lot of things that needs to -- need

to be shaped (ph) out. But I think --

ANDERSON: Right.

REZAIAN: -- you know, the powers that be in Washington at the moment, in Israel and in Saudi Arabia would like to see more tension, not less.

ANDERSON: With a great respect, I have to say that I think there would be people in this region who have just listened to what you've said and said,

while the deal was intact, you suggested that there have been less Iranian, as you -- as you call it, adventurism around the region. I think -- yes,

I'm pretty sure that there will be people in this region who say, what about Yemen, what about Iraq, what about Syria, be that as it may.

Don't go away, Jason. I just want to bring in Nick Paton Walsh at this point because we are getting these new images in. And Nick, I know that

you've been speaking to your sources on the ground and monitoring Iranian media. What do we understand about the scene of this assassination as we

look at these live images?

WALSH: As you can see, it's getting dark there at this time. And the first pictures we saw, they were obviously in daylight here. Now, state media is

suggesting that this attack may have begun with an explosion, and that very much tallies with some of the detritus that we saw in some of the earlier

pictures. It seems (ph) to match this scene as well.

That might make sense given what we're also hearing in terms of the narrative about what went down. If this man was traveling -- Mr.

Fakhrizadeh was traveling with bodyguards, security, then it might be possible that those targeting him would choose an explosion to disrupt that

security first.

And then if you look at that car too, there do appear to be three or four holes in the windshield, which might possibly be from the gunshots which

state media is suggesting may have followed up that initial explosion. And that suggests a very complex, coordinated attack.

Remember, you have to obtain the explosives and the firearms, plot where you're going to do this, all inside the pretty border-tight security

apparatus that is Iran a lot of the time, and carry it out and then most likely get away as well. So this is a complicated attack that serves as

sort of an embarrassment, frankly, to Iran's security apparatus, particularly, frankly, to the most prominent nuclear scientist that they

had.

And I think there'll be a lot of people in Tehran at the moment urgently conducting manhunts and trying to work out how on earth this actually

happened.

Becky?

ANDERSON: Oren, let me just bring you in at this point. The context on the timing of this assassination, this is something that Jason's been, you

know, extremely insightful in explaining for us. I think it's important that we just firstly caveat this by saying there have been accusations from

Iran that Israel is involved or behind this.

We can't stand those accusations up at this point, but let's just consider Benjamin Netanyahu's movements in the last week or so.

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Reports that he was in Saudi Arabia with the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, two characters who have certainly got Iran in their crosshairs at

present and as we've been discussing would want that to continue to be the kind of prevailing attitude with Washington as well.

LIEBERMANN: Very much. The United States, Saudi Arabia, and Israel see eye-to-eye when it comes to Iran. They supported President Donald Trump's

withdrawal from the JCPOA, the maximum pressure against Iran, and you rightly point out what we've heard and what we've seen from Netanyahu over

the course of the last couple weeks.

Key is that reported trip - that secret trip to Saudi Arabia to meet Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman at a time when Secretary of State Mike Pompeo

was also there and has said right around that timeframe that all options are still on the table when it comes to Iran.

Just before that Netanyahu had said speaking in Israel that we must return to the Iran nuclear deal and they gave a wholehearted endorsement of the

continuation of sanctions, the continuation of pressure against Iran without specifically mentioning President Donald Trump and without

specifically mentioning who that message was clearly for and that being President-Elect Joe Biden. Netanyahu very much knows the situation right

now.

There's less than two months of Trump being in office, less than two months of the wholehearted support that Washington has given Netanyahu when it

comes to his statements, when it comes to his actions against Iran. So if it was Israel, and again we don't have that information right now and

Israel has simply given a no comment, Netanyahu knows that soon his options may be limited.

His ability to act freely may be limited. Trump gives him the cover he wants when he decides he wants to act, and we've certainly seen Israeli

actions in Syria both acknowledged and accused from other states and other militaries, specifically the Syrians and the Iranians, and we've seen

Israel act in Iran.

Specifically there they took credit for stealing the Iranian nuclear archive, which showed a tremendous ability to operate within a very hostile

country. This, if this was Israeli would obviously do the same thing.

A very difficult operation to pull off as Nick Paton Walsh pulled off - pointed out, and yet here we stand. Somebody did this. Somebody did it very

well and very precisely. And if you look at it from Netanyahu's perspective, there are reasons this is advantageous as Jason specifically

pointed out to try to put limits on what Biden is able to do when it comes to diplomacy with Iran.

So when you look at the situation there are elements here that would certainly benefit Israel, but it is a very delicate situation at this point

and it's difficult to determine exactly how this plays out. I would also point out that I think Nick Paton Walsh was very right to point that beside

the rhetoric we're hearing from Tehran right now, perhaps the response, the retaliation won't be as big as they're making it up to be.

ANDERSON: Thank you, Oren. Let me just bring Jason back in. Look, Jason. Tehran was home for you for a long time. You love the place dearly. You

know an awful lot of people there. You know, how do you expect people might be responding to what they will be seeing on their state media this

evening?

REZAIAN: Well I think it depends on what kind of people we're talking about. I mean, there are obviously a large number of Iranians who do not

support the regime in power anymore.

That being said, I mean, any infiltration of the national territory and such an extreme act being successful makes people, you know, rightfully

very scared about the security within their own borders. And as both of my colleagues just pointed out, I mean, this is not the first time that this

has happened in the last decade. It's happened multiple times.

I think ultimately we also have to acknowledge the fact that Iran is kind of on its back legs right now because of an economy that's tattered by

sanctions and some of the - actually the worst COVID outbreak in the Middle East up against powers that are much wealthier and better armed than they

are. So I think that the actual response - the rhetorical response will be tough, but the actual response it's likely to be rather subdued.

ANDERSON: Yes, your insight is invaluable, sir. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. I also spoke a little early to

Vali Nasr, professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. Have a listen to our discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VALI NASR, PROFESSOR, JOHNS HOPKINS SCHOOL OF ADVANCED INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: I think it's a very dangerous and intense situation.

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This is the second assassination that has happened in Iran. Only a few weeks back there was report that Israel had assassinated Al Qaeda's number

two in Iran in July.

I think partly Israelis want to send the signal to Iran that they can operate inside Iran at will to embarrass the government, but also within a

long period during which the Iranians are unlikely to retaliate because they don't want to stir the pot before the Biden administration comes in

and complicate discussions around the United States rejoining the nuclear agreement, and also that the Israelis will have much more leeway while the

Trump administration is in there.

And if the Israelis can get Iran to retaliate in a way that would get the Trump administration to go to military means, so much the better because

that will even (ph) further complicate any kind of a reengagement by the Biden administration and Iran.

ANDERSON: What do the Israelis achieve if the accusations are true? And let's be absolutely clear here, there has been no comment from the prime

minister's office to CNN - these are accusations that Israeli is behind this assassination and these accusations are coming from Iran. Ultimately,

what does Israeli achieve, were it to have been them assassinating this scientist?

NASR: Two things - first of all is to slow down the program, I mean, Fakhrizadeh would be probably the ninth or tenth nuclear scientist has

Israel has assassinated in Iran (ph). There was about eight of them who were assassinated before the Trump administration came to power, and those

are the ones we know.

So by taking out key people, you hope to dent (ph) the progress of the program. But Fakrizadeh being a well known name, being that Netanyahu had

mentioned him also has a symbolism of provoking Iran.

This is a way in which to tell the Iranians that we can operate in Iran, we can embarrass you, we can kill people in Iran at will. And it puts a lot of

pressure on Iranian intelligence and security services not to react.

So it is a two-fold effect, so one is to slow down the program - the other one, which is something that Prime Minister Netanyahu would want is to get

Iran to do something that would make it impossible for the United States to engage Iran after January 20.

And I think the Iranians will want to retaliate, not to just take revenge, but they want to do something to tell Israel that this kind of action

inside Iran has costs. They want to impose deterrence on Israel.

But I don't think they will do it before January 20 because they full well know that Secretary Pompeo and Prime Minister Netanyahu would love nothing

better than get Iran out in to an open fight that then would muddy the water after January 20. This is a - this is also a tactic by Prime Minister

Netanyahu to tie the new administration's hands behind its back before it comes in.

ANDERSON: Yeah. Fascinating. Mike Pompeo, of course has now agreed that the State Department will begin talking to the Biden administration, a

State Department that will be run going forward, by Antony Blinken.

He has also just swung through this region on what was, it sort of felt like a farewell tour to many, and to others it felt like hey - hello, 2024

tour from Mike Pompeo. What did you make of that last swing through the Middle East by the Secretary of State, outgoing?

NASR: Well, I think you characterized it very well. In other words he was laying the groundwork for 2024 - particularly taking pictures of these

settlements, brokering a supposed meeting between the Saudi crown prince and the Israeli prime minister. But at the same time he's very sensitive

trying to protect his legacy, the fact that he has not really achieved anything in office - particularly vis-...-vis Iran.

So this was a last effort to do that, but I would add one thing, Becky, when we talk about the fact that one of the problems with the lack of

cooperation between the Trump administration and President Elect Biden during the transition is not sharing intelligence until this week means

that the Biden administration was in the dark as to what meetings happened in Iran.

Who might have been behind this assassination? What might have been planned? And so there's a lot been happening in the Middle East that could

end up in war, and at least since November 4, the Biden administration has not been getting formal detailed intelligence reports on what's going on.

So they won't even know what Secretary Pompeo discussed in the Middle East and maybe that was partly deliberate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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ANDERSON: Finalizing -- rounding out our coverage in a region that's just -- never stops. I'm Becky Anderson, of course, in Abu Dhabi. A reminder on

our massive breaking news this evening, Iran says its top nuclear scientist is dead, the victim of an assassination.

You can see the scene here. According to state television, a car filled with explosives exploded near Mohsen Fakhrizadeh's vehicle earlier Friday

and attackers began firing on his car.

The Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif calls the death "cowardice with serious indications of an Israeli role." Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

Netanyahu's office has not responded to CNN's request for comment.

Iran's Army Chief of Staff is warning of "severe revenge" after the killing. We will stay on top of this story for you as you would expect here

on CNN. Right now, there's a lot going on in the states and my colleague Brooke Baldwin has it covered for you.

END