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South Africa Pauses Oxford-AstraZeneca Vaccine Rollout; U.S., Iran Trade Tough Talk On Future Of Nuclear Deal; Israel Prime Minister Pleads Not Guilty. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired February 08, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:22]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ninety-five percent of the cases in South Africa are of that variant. And if they're going to roll out a vaccine, they want to make

sure that it has efficacy.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR (voice-over): South Africa's raging COVID-19 variant throws a spanner in the country's vaccine rollout.

We will tell you how and why just ahead. Then.

NORAH O'DONNELL, CBS EVENING NEWS ANCHOR: Will the U.S. lift sanctions first in order to get Iran back to the negotiating table?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No.

ANDERSON (voice-over): A simple answer but not a simple path ahead. Washington and Tehran lay out their stances on the Iran Nuclear Deal. Plus,

D.C. gears up for Donald Trump's second impeachment trial yet one day out. Still so many questions about the process remain.

Well, it's 10:00 in the morning in D.C. It's 5:00 p.m. in Cape Town, 7:00 in the evening here in Abu Dhabi. Hello and welcome. I am Becky Anderson

and you are watching CONNECT THE WORLD. This hour, a vaccine setback but still hope has coronavirus variants through major new obstacles into

getting the world vaccinated as quickly as possible. South Africa pausing the country's much anticipated rollout of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine

after a study found it offers minimal protection against mild and moderate cases of the variant now dominant there.

That variant detected in more than 30 other countries. Important to note, the study that I'm referring to is still awaiting peer review and does not

offer any information on possible protection against severe cases of COVID- 19. AstraZeneca says it believes the vaccine can be effective against those cases under the right dosing intervals. And the study's lead researcher in

South Africa is echoing that hope.

But for now, those potentially life-saving jobs are on hold as the country awaits vaccines from other drug makers. David McKenzie has previously

connected as to the lab that first discovered the variant in South Africa. He joins us tonight from Molawi. David, firstly, let's stick to what is

going on in South Africa. Just how significant is this decision for the country's vaccine rollout?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's very significant, Becky, and it's deeply disappointing for South Africa because

there was much fanfare with those, one million doses of AstraZeneca vaccine arrived just a short time ago. And then there's bad news that limited

vaccine trial and we've been talking to the head of that trial over many months, shows that it has very minimal effect against mild and moderate

disease in COVID-19.

So, they're opposing it. They are going to do more investigations. Here's what the Health Minister had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZWELI MKHIZE, SOUTH AFRICAN HEALTH MINISTER: -- its infection and we're uncertain about the impact on -- of the vaccine that it will have on

hospitalization, severe diseases, and -- excuse me, this means that what we will take from Professor Shabir Madhi is that some more work needs to be

done on this issue because the results from other countries have been quite satisfactory. But there are issues in South Africa that we need to study a

bit more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKENZIE: So, down the line, they may be able to use that vaccine for severe disease, but the variant discovered in South Africa has ripped

through this entire region. Here in Molawi, they are dealing with a dramatic second wave. Becky?

ANDERSON: Let's just talk about what is going on on the ground there in Molawi. What is the situation and will this this pause in South Africa, for

example, in its vaccine rollout impact how things progress where you are?

MCKENZIE: Potentially, Becky. You know, you see the tents behind me, that's where the overflow of this hospital are. They worry that this wave will be

followed by another wave. But in Molawi there is a difference because the vaccines haven't even arrived here yet. Doctors without borders and

administrators here are really hoping to order vaccines 40,000 of them. Obviously, vaccines that would work against this new variant for the

healthcare workers. We were inside one of four COVID-19 isolation wards here at the hospital.

[10:05:01]

MCKENZIE: They were really doing an amazing job with the limited resources they've had. We've been out of district hospitals and clinics across this

part of the country. And they really are struggling, even a lack of oxygen in some of those district hospitals. So, the need is now, and as some are

saying, it's not just an issue of the availability of vaccines. It's an issue of timing. They said get vaccines into countries like Molawi that are

dealing with a surge right at this moment, then you can at least help the healthcare system survive. Becky?

ANDERSON: David McKenzie is in Molawi. And we will have David's full report next hour. Thank you. Well, despite the vaccine pause in South Africa that

David and I have just been discussing, the head of the country's COVID-19 Advisory Committee. So, South Africa still hopes to vaccinate 100,000

people by the beginning of March. Salim Abdool Karim spoke to me a short time ago. And I started by asking him if the pause in the vaccine rollout

is the right move.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SALIM ABDOOL KARIM, CHAIR, SOUTH AFRICA COVID-19 ADVISORY COMMITTEE: As we look at the overall strategy for COVID-19 vaccination in South Africa, we

always wanted to have a diversity of candidates. One of those candidates is the AstraZeneca vaccine. We chose it based on its efficacy that was shown

in the U.K. and Brazil. And we saw that it's evidence provided, showed that it prevented hospitalization as well.

Based on that, we thought it was a good vaccine to proceed with. However, on Monday this week, some results that came from a small South African

study that looked at young people only, below the age of 65 showed that the vaccine was not as efficacious against mild and moderate disease. Now, we

don't know whether the same results can be expected for severe disease and hospitalizations.

And that's what we're trying to prevent with the vaccine. And so, we have uncertainty about whether this vaccine will be efficacious in the context

of the 501.V2 variant in South Africa. And so that's why it's now being delayed. It's not being stopped. It's just being delayed in order to get

the information on its effects on hospitalization before we proceeded to rolling out to millions of people.

ANDERSON: How long do you expect this pause to last?

KARIM: The proposal right now is to institute the rollout of the AstraZeneca vaccine in a stepped approach, where we would start by

vaccinating about 100,000 individuals in the first step. We would look at the hospitalization rates once we've done those vaccinations. And if we

find that the hospitalization rates are below the threshold that we are looking at, then we can be confident that the vaccine is efficacious and

maintains its efficacy against hospitalization, at least.

And if so, we can then proceed to continuing the rollout. If we find that the hospitalizations are substantial, more than we anticipated, then we

would have to stop -- take stock of where we are and perhaps switch to other vaccines.

ANDERSON: My sense is that you have some concerns about this study suggesting two doses of the vaccine provided only minimal protection

against mild to moderate cases. Correct?

KARIM: When we look at the study itself, it had never set out to look at the effects of a variant. There was no variant at the time. It was a study

simply to look at whether the vaccine was efficacious in the younger people. So, now it's a study that was designed for X now being used to

answer a completely different question. And the overall rate it produced, which was 22 percent efficiency as a confidence interval that's very wide

including 60 percent efficacy.

So, we are unsure what the study has created some uncertainty about the efficacy of the AstraZeneca vaccine. So, it's more about what the

uncertainty is rather than what it actually shows.

ANDERSON: South Africa experiencing a second wave and now this new variant, first sequenced in the country is clearly a real concern. How big a

concern, sir?

KARIM: When we look at any new variant, there are four key questions. The first is, is this more infectious? And what we have found, yes, the 501Y.V2

variant is more infectious. It's about 50 percent or so more infectious based on some modeling studies and based on -- it took 50 percent fewer

days in order to reach 100,000 cases in the Western Cape is one indication.

[10:10:10]

KARIM: The second is we wanted to assess is it causing more severe disease? And that's not an easy question to answer. It's quite complicated. What we

have been able to establish with preliminary data is that it looks like this virus is not causing more severe disease, but they are -- there is an

increase in deaths because of the pressure of the rapid increase in cases on hospitals. Then the next question is, does it escaped natural immunity?

The answer to that is yes, it does. In other words, all of those individuals who became infected in the first wave are now susceptible to

this variant in the second wave. And then the fourth question, is it escaping vaccines? And it looks like based on the evidence we have, yes, it

seems to be escaping vaccine induced immunity,

ANDERSON: Which -- to many of our viewers will be really, really concerning points that you raised. What's your message at this point?

KARIM: I think we have to accept that we are now in a world of COVID-19 t.at is creating new variants. And those variants will escape immunity. And

we likely to see this continue in various ways. What it means is that we have to now be smarter about the way we make our vaccines and how we can

respond with the next generation of vaccines. So, we need a wider array of vaccines.

We need new generation vaccines that are much broader in the immunity that are able to kill a wide range of variants. And importantly, as new variants

emerge, we've got the -- get the ability to rapidly produce a new booster shot that deals with new variants. So, I think what we have seen is a new

way in which the race between the virus and humankind is playing itself out. And I'm pretty confident that with the science we have, that -- win.

ANDERSON: So, you are confident that big pharma can cope at this point?

KARIM: I'm particularly confident because I've just seen the data on the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, which shows that against the 501Y.V2 variant,

it's at least 50 -- 57 percent effective. But importantly, it's 85 percent effective against the 501Y.V2 variant for hospitalization and severe

disease. Now, that I think indicates to me with a single dose of vaccine that we can get such high levels of protection against the most severe

forms of the disease tells me we are on the right path

ANDERSON: AstraZeneca slated to roll out to neighboring countries through the COVAX mechanism. Do you believe South Africa's decision to delay at

this point should be a guide for neighboring countries who find themselves in the midst of this second wave with less resources and options than South

Africa?

KARIM: I wouldn't presume to give advice to other countries, I would just say that our experience in South Africa is linked directly to how common

the 501Y.V2 variant is. In any country with the same variant is predominant. I would be hesitant to roll out a vaccine, because we might

end up giving a million people the vaccine and then realizing that oh, it doesn't prevent hospitalization.

And that's not what we want to be doing. We need to be prudent. We're not saying don't roll out the vaccine, roll it out. But make sure that we are

assessing its efficacy. And if it is efficacious, roll it out by all means.

ANDERSON: The impact of COVID-19 in terms of death rates is comparatively lower in Africa, compared with other places, for example, Europe. Why is

that, sir?

KARIM: There have been many hypotheses about why the death rates are so much lower in Africa. I think the one predominant feature is the younger

populations that we have in Africa, that we have a very small proportion of our population that is over 65. And so, we would naturally see fewer cases

of illness and fewer deaths because we have fewer older people. But I think what we -- even with the younger population, that's not the whole story.

That can't explain why the death rates are that low. There is some element of under reporting. But even then my colleagues as I serve on the African

Coronavirus Task Force, don't, you know, they just don't have hospitals full of patients with respiratory distress.

[10:15:14]

KARIM: So, it seems that there's more at play. There is much speculation about that. But there is no evidence to tell us why that's the case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON: And of course, we will continue to dig to try and find out exactly why that is the case. Important information there with my guess.

Well, the major developments to tell you about now coming from this region with only six weeks to go until Israeli voters head back to the polls/

Benjamin Netanyahu was back before a judge saying he is not guilty of charges of bribery, fraud and breach of trust. Mr. Netanyahu is Israel's

first sitting Prime Minister to go on trial. As a viewer of CONNECT THE WORLD, you will know that he was on good terms with Joe Biden's

predecessor.

And you can bet the Israeli Prime Minister is keeping a close watch on the new U.S. president who didn't mention Israel or the Palestinians in his

first foreign policy speech. Connecting you to CNN's Sam Kiley, now in developments at the Jerusalem District Court. This happening in the

background, of course of another election next month. Connect it to the big picture, if you will.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we had the -- not extraordinary it's the second time it's happened but the appearance of an

Israeli prime minister in a district court charged with criminal offenses, the most grievous of which, if convicted could lead conceivably to a 10-

year jail sentence, Becky. Extraordinary scenes within the courthouse none of the grandstanding that we saw back in May when he was first arraigned

but this was his formal plea process.

Essentially appearing in court to confirm what his lawyers had already said in writing, which is that he pleads not guilty to all of the charges laid

across three different cases called case 1001, 2004, 1000. The most powerful case if you like, the most spectacular relates to rather complex

allegations that the Israeli Prime Minister traded legislative favor in, which helped a company called Eurocom which had a commanding interest in

Bezeq, a telecoms giant here, which resulted in profits of some estimated $280 million equivalent.

Now, of course, there's no suggestion that the Israeli Prime Minister benefited in a pecuniary sense, but the allegation is that he was given a

favorable coverage in an online news site, whether the news site, one of the news sites here. That is the major allegation, but there are a number

of others against him and others in this case. It's really key here, though, Becky, that in the six weeks ahead of an election campaign, the

Netanyahu camp obviously do not want to see endless prosecution witnesses as taking the stand at this critical political time.

In other words, he's both facing legal and political jeopardy with the March 23rd elections looming on the other side. Politically, the left here

is in such disarray that the Likud coalitions that he is likely to be able to attract around him look pretty confident that they probably would win in

March because nothing is ever set in stone in the rather repetitive election campaigns that we've seen in Israel over the last few years.

This is the fourth in almost as many years I think that Israel is going to have to be enduring all coming of course on top of the COVID lockdown,

which was lifted slightly in the last 24 hours with a little bit more flexibility here and there, but schools still closed and above all, the

airspace, land crossings and sea access close to passengers not afraid -- close to passengers, except for returning Israelis here to Israel. Becky?

ANDERSON: Senior International Correspondent Sam Kiley in Jerusalem for you. Thank you, Sam. Well, some tough talk from Iran on relations with the

United States and the future of the nuclear deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Iran never left the deal. Iran is in the deal. Iran has reduced some of its commitments in line with the deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Well, and coming up. Both countries saying the next move is up to the other. Will either side blink? We'll have a live report up next on a

busy but crucial week underway in Washington. Will Donald Trump's unprecedented second impeachment trial effect President Biden's push for

COVID-19 relief.

[10:20:09]

ANDERSON: Parallel tracks. Both hugely important. We'll take a look after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Well, Iran and the United States currently both putting the ball in each other's course as it was this hour when it comes to the Iran

Nuclear Deal. Iran supreme leader has demanded that the U.S. must drop all sanctions against Iran to return to the deal. The Biden administration

however, giving that option a hard no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'DONNELL: Will the U.S. lift sanctions first in order to get Iran back to the negotiating table?

BIDEN: No.

O'DONNELL: They have to stop enriching uranium first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Well, Joe Biden couldn't be more emphatic. Iran's Foreign Minister spoke to CNN on Sunday saying the future of their relationship

with the U.S. is really after Mr. Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZARIF: Iran never left the deal. Iran is in the deal. Iran has reduced some of its commitments in line with the deal. The way to go back to full

compliance on the part of Iran is for the United States, which has totally left the deal, to come back and implement its obligations. Now it's clear

it's a decision that President Biden and his advisers need to take. Whether they want to break with the failed policies of President Trump or whether

they want to build on his failures.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Our International diplomatic editor Nic Robertson has been keeping a close eye on all of this as the narrative develops between

Washington and Tehran and joins us now. Nic, what is the likely path going forward regarding the Iran Nuclear Deal and the wider story of Tehran-

Washington Relations at this point?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, it's clearly not going to make a lot of progress at the public level. Is it, Becky? I mean,

that's the narrative that we heard loud and clear over the weekend. You do it our way? No, you do it our way. OK. It's sort of -- it looks like an

impasse there. What we know is happening. There's several things. One is we know that the Biden administration is still going through a review of the

United States relationship with Iran by -- it's trying to figure out its position.

OK. How is it doing that? What's it doing on the ground? Jake Sullivan, national security advisor President Biden says he's talking to the E3.

That's the European allies, Britain, France, Germany who were partners to that original JCPOA, the Iran Nuclear Deal back in 2015. To see what

they'll stand by the United States on/

[10:25:11]

ROBERTSON: I mean, there are other issues here beyond the JCPOA beyond the nuclear deal. There's an ambition for these nations to try to get Iran to

dial back its ballistic missiles program and to stop its -- what's viewed as a destabilizing effect in the region. So, all of that appears to be in

discussion in the background. So, the million-dollar question is, who moves first? And I think, frank, Becky, we don't know.

And I'm not sure that the Biden administration has quite figured out its way forward. What -- speaking last week on his foreign -- big foreign

policy statement, Biden didn't really have a lot to say about Iran, apart from putting them on notice about this destabilizing influence in the

region. So, you know, at the moment, that's where things stand, the ball is not moving. But you know, behind the scenes, there's a lot of diplomatic

effort which is going to be the key to this, of course, behind the scenes, and they're still trying to figure it out, Becky.

ANDERSON: Yes. Fly on the wall in the back channeling is going on at present would be very interesting. Look, it is that destabilizing influence

on the region that has the U.N. Special Envoy for Yemen, Martin Griffiths currently in Iran to discuss efforts to end the Yemen conflict. Now this

comes, of course, as the U.S. moves to limits intelligence sharing with Saudi Arabia as part of Washington's decision to end support for offensive

ops in Yemen.

Nothing in this region happens in isolation. And Joe Biden knows that better than most. What does Biden want to achieve regarding Yemen at this

point?

ROBERTSON: You know, what the U.N. wants to achieve and Biden said he wants to do this as well is to end the fighting there and to improve the

humanitarian situation in Yemen for all the Yemen. It's widely regarded as the worst humanitarian crisis in the world at the moment. And part of that

is because there's been a war going on there between the Houthi-backed rebels that seize power in Yemen from the U.N. an internationally

recognized government.

And the U.-S. -- sorry, the Saudis and a coalition of forces against that Houthi-backed -- those Houthi-backed rebels in Yemen. So, that's the sort

of starting position. What we know this U.N. Special Representative Martin Griffiths is doing in Iran at the moment is trying to move that ball along.

And I think it's really important, as you say, look at this in the round, look at what President Biden said in his foreign policy speech last week

that he wants to see -- he is going to support the U.N. diplomatic peace efforts in Yemen rather than provide the Saudis with satellite information

about the disposition of Houthi forces.

And perhaps through their air to air refueling that we know is something that the -- that the United States has done for the Saudi Air Force in that

-- in that arena. So, yes, the fact that -- the fact that a few days after President Biden says that about supporting the U.N. effort that the U.N.

envoy is making his first trip to Tehran is important. But the -- but these were only at the beginning, Becky. It's hard to see -- it's hard to see the

next step at this stage.

ANDERSON: Yes, yes. No, I know you'll keep your eye on exactly what is going on. And any moves we do get, you will have, and our viewers will get

reports on those.

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, Ali al-Nimr who was arrested and sentenced to death for taking part in anti-government protests as a teenager we reported

at length on this story has had his sentence commuted. How significant is this, Nic?

ROBERTSON: Yes. Again, put this in the round with President Biden again, saying that he is going to sort of call Saudi Arabia to account on human

rights abuses. And part of that picture is the number of people that are detained in Saudi Arabia now is Ali Al Nimr's case falling under that.

Possibly not, this is very hard to read. We do know that a couple of Saudi- American activists who were in detention in Saudi Arabia for almost two years were released last week right on the eve of Biden's big foreign

policy speech.

Ali Al Nimr's case and a couple of other teenage or young men who were teenagers when they were arrested back in 2012, part of the Shia community

that were protesting against the government at the time accused of, you know, accused of -- by the state of attacking the police at the time. You

know, last year before President Biden came anywhere close to winning the U.S. election last year, there was a royal decree in Saudi Arabia that said

anyone of Ali Al Nimr's age who was a teenager when they were arrested should serve only a maximum of 10 years in jail.

[10:30:14]

ROBERTSON: And at that time or just before that, he'd had the death penalty hanging over his head. So, the royal commission that called for the -- sort

of end of his detention and for others as well, that was last year. But the court met this weekend and they made a clear decision that -- and his

father was in the court there, we've spoken to his father afterwards. And the court said, you know, within eight or nine months he should be

released.

You know, his father said, look, this should not be a situation where a sentence is commuted. He was innocent, he should have been acquitted. I

spoke to his father in Saudi about his son four years ago, and he told me then that his son said that he'd been tortured when he was in jail. So, I

think there's a lot more to find out about this. What does it mean in the big picture?

ANDERSON: Thank you, Nic. Stay with CNN. We got a lot more in the early days of the -- on the early days of the Biden administration. Clearly big

foreign policy challenges. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is Wolf's guest on The Sit Room at 2:00 a.m. Abu Dhabi time, 10:00 p.m. London. We

will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Well, what a week in Washington. The historic second impeachment trial of Donald Trump begins Tuesday but with just about 24 hours to go.

Still surprisingly few details about what the trial will actually look like. Senate leaders are still deciding the rules, including whether

witnesses will be called. All the while, it is a decisive week of negotiations for Democrats as they debate how to move ahead with President

Joe Biden's COVID-19 relief plan.

Bottom line, we know Democrats will be united on Trump's impeachment. But the big question, can they maintain that unity with Mr. Biden's first big

legislative push? It's a really good question. Let's break it all down with CNN John Avlon who's in the House for you. Let's start with impeachment.

It's still a day away. And so many questions about just how this will work. Why, John?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we're in uncharted territory. I mean, remember, this has only happened four times before in

American history. And just because half of those belonged to Donald Trump over the last 25 months or so, doesn't mean that the details can be worked

out because this also is happening to an ex-president. And Republicans want to stonewall this on process.

[10:35:04]

AVLON: So, the question of witnesses, which was also an issue in the last impeachment is one of the real sticking points. How will this operate? How

quickly will it go? Will there be witnesses? These are details but this is going forward beginning tomorrow from the fourth time in American history

and American president. Impeachment trial in the Senate. It's a big deal.

ANDERSON: Do we have any idea how long this could last?

AVLON: Well, there's every indication that both parties would like it to be relatively quick, they wouldn't mind if it were over in a week, typically,

impeachment trials can go longer than that. And that's indeed one of the Republicans negotiating points, one of the weapons they believe they have

is saying, look, if you want to open it up to witnesses, we'll extend this and that could have a negative impact on the other deals.

The other business in front of Congress in the Senate, in particular, as you mentioned, President Biden's first big push to have a $1.9 trillion

COVID relief. And Democrats are concerned about this. Perceptions that they may be doing their duty, but for a lot of the American people, they'll say,

look, that's about the past COVID beliefs about the future. It's one of the many sticking points in the politics behind this constitutional prerogative

of impeachment.

ANDERSON: Yes. And I want to talk about the COVID relief plan in a moment. Let's just close this bit out. President Biden himself has told CNN that he

doesn't believe there will be enough votes to convict Donald Trump, but the process must happen. Members of the Republican Party are calling the

process a complete waste of time. Democrats say it must happen. For our international audience, what is the point of the process if it's not likely

to result in conviction, John?

AVLON: Well, first of all, no president has been convicted in a Senate trial. You've got Andrew Johnson came within one vote in the 1860s. Then

you got to fast forward to Bill Clinton, Richard Nixon, resigning under threat of impeachment, but not actually facing it. And then Donald Trump

with two terms. So, no presidents actually been convicted. The reason it has to go forward is that the House impeach while Donald Trump was still

president, for actions he took, you know, after the election, that fall very squarely, very clearly.

And what the founders imagined to be an impeachable offense, inciting an insurrection against the U.S. government. So you can't simply table it and

say, we're good now. Now there is some debate about whether you can impeach a previous officeholder, but that has been answered in the past. A

secretary of war was impeached after leaving office in the 1870s for corruption, for bribery.

So, this is going to go forward. Republicans want to minimize it and derailed on process because they don't want to take the vote. But they

don't have the option to simply say this doesn't matter because there's a constitutional process that is already underway because the House of

impeachment.

ANDERSON: John, this is of course a chance for the GOP to distance itself for certain lawmakers to distance themselves from Mr. Trump. This is what

Lindsey Graham had to say about the future of his Republican Party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARGARET BRENNAN, CBS HOST: You still believe President Trump is the best face for the Republican Party? Yes or no?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I think he's -- I think he's the -- yes, I think, yes, I think -- I think Donald Trump's policies serve the country

well. I think Donald Trump has to rehabilitate himself as a politician.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: I've heard Lindsey Graham be a lot more emphatic in answering a question than that. But your thoughts, John.

AVLON: Look, you could see him tap dancing on that one. He's trying to draw a distinction between Trump's policies and the person and in fact, his

actions. But look, you know, you would think this would be a chance to -- for the Republican Party to distance itself from a president who lied about

election results and incited an insurrection. Facts that very few people actually, you know, deny. But the fact is that Republicans are still afraid

of the base.

They're afraid of Donald Trump despite being deplatformed. So, the old fear of a mean tweet excuse doesn't exactly apply, and they want to avoid this

vote. The House -- the state parties are still very much enthralled to Donald Trump. They have censured, not the conspiracy theorists and the

enablers of this insurrection and the attempt to overturn the election, but the people who've called it out with moral clarity.

History is going to be on their side. But right now the party is controlled by the other folks. And that leads to this tension in the Republican Party

that Lindsey Graham and so many other people seem so visibly tortured by because they can't say what they know to be true, or they simply sold out

to the previous president.

ANDERSON: We've got 60 seconds, sir. I know you can do this. Ultimately, the COVID relief package that Joe Biden is planning will be much more

important as far as his legacy is concerned and what happens in impeachment this week. What can we expect?

AVLON: You can expect dual tracks, you can expect the Biden administration pushing forward and Democrats working to pass it in reconciliation. They

would like to take Republican input. They want this to be bipartisan but they're prepared to pass it along partisan lines if needed so that it hits

the necessary threshold to have a dramatic impact on defeating COVID and rebuilding the economy.

[10:40:14]

ANDERSON: John Avlon, I love the way you rise to a challenge. You did. You nailed it. Always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

AVLON: Take care, Becky.

ANDERSON: John Avlon in the House. And you can catch our special live coverage of Donald Trump's second impeachment trial throughout the day,

Tuesday, right here on CNN. We will be back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Well, football fans and I mean those of the American persuasion glued to their seats around the world for Super Bowl Sunday. And while many

were clearly keen to watch the game, others are waiting the infamous halftime show this year. Canadian singer The Weekend wowed crowds with some

snazzy visual effects making it look like - well, quite frankly, he got sucked into a maze of lights.

Don Riddell for that was watching the -- I don't know. Don, it made me just feel a little bit queasy actually, I have to say, but then I'm probably a

little bit out of touch. Perhaps the effects were too modern for me. I don't know. What do you think?

DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT ANCHOR: I don't know. Maybe it's because we had a couple of drinks watching the game and that could take us over the

edge. Yes. It was really cool -- really cool special effects. I will say that scene which has been memed all over the internet actually became a

visual metaphor for what happened to the Kansas City Chiefs because they seemed a bit dazed and confused.

And there's like -- they just couldn't find a way out. But I mean, they were just overwhelmed by a magnificent performance by the Bucs, notably

their defense. But of course, it's Tom Brady who takes all of the credits. Seven Super Bowl rings now, he's got one from every day of the week and he

has individually got even more than the most successful teams in the NFL. An extraordinary accomplishment by him.

ANDERSON: Absolutely remarkable. Absolutely remarkable. More on that with "WORLD SPORT." And Don Riddell who is rumored to be next year's halftime

performer

RIDDELL: My kids, they're the musical talent in my family. Not me.

ANDERSON: Oh, we'll look forward to seeing them. Thank you, Don. We will be -- he'll be back after the break and I'll be back after that.

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