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Klitschko Brothers Lead Battle To Keep Russians Out Of Kyiv; U.S. President Biden Addresses U.S. Troops In Poland; Biden, E.U. Chief Announces Task Force To Reduce Dependence On Russia Energy; Biden: "We Would Respond" To Chemical Weapons In Ukraine; Ukrainian Refugees Face Difficult U.K. Visa Application Process; Biden In Poland Discussing Needs Of Millions Of War Refugees. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired March 25, 2022 - 11:00   ET



BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: This hour Ukrainian forces retake towns on the outskirts of Kyiv while the death toll from Russia's Mariupol

theater strike becomes clearer and more devastating.

Meanwhile, U.S. President Joe Biden is in Poland to highlight the wars refugee crisis a day after what was an extraordinary NATO summit in

Brussels, where western leaders presented a united front against Russia and at the center of that summit, a globe spanning effort to wean Europe off

Russian energy.

The result was U.S. president announcing a new energy task force with Europe to deprive the Russian president of profits used to "drive his war

machine" and the west hoping to get support from this energy rich region of the Gulf where I am especially Qatar, one of the world's largest producers

of liquefied natural gas or LNG.

My exclusive interview with Qatar's Energy Minister is just ahead. I'm Becky Anderson. Hello and welcome to CONNECT THE WORLD. Well, the massive

refugee crisis sparked by Russia's war on Ukraine in focus in Poland this hour.

Joe Biden arriving a few hours ago in a city near Ukraine's border, Mr. Biden not receiving a planned greeting from Poland's President after

Andrzej Duda's plane was forced to return to Warsaw and make an emergency landing.

Well, the U.S. president instead changing his schedule to first meet U.S. troops stationed in the area before he gets an initial briefing from

President Duda, who is now on the ground. The two will sit down tomorrow to discuss the massive refugee influx to the country.

Poland of course is taking in the majority of the more than three and a half million people who have fled Ukraine since the start of the war. The

White House announcing Mr. Biden will meet with some of those refugees tomorrow and deliver what is described as a major address.

Well meanwhile, on the ground in Ukraine, there is now an estimated death toll in one of the most heinous attacks of Russia's month's long invasion.

The city the council City Council of besieged Mariupol says it believes about 300 people was killed when Russia bombed a theater that was being

used as a shelter for families.

This newly released video shows people escaping after that bomb hit. As many as 1300 people were believed there at the time of the bombing, well

the attack happening despite the world children written in big letters outside the theater.

Well today Russia claiming a cruise missile attack destroyed Ukraine's largest remaining fuel depot not far from Kyiv. Video of the attack posted

on social media. Now this comes as the UK Defense Ministry reports Ukrainian troops on the ground have retaken towns and defensive positions

east of the capital.

Kyiv itself has endured intense Russian airstrikes. But the mayor and his brother both former world heavyweight boxing champions are vowing to keep

Russian troops out of the city. CNN's Fred Pleitgen spoke exclusively with the Klitschko brothers, here is his report.


FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As Vladimir Putin continues his assault on Ukraine, the U.S. believes taking

the capital Kyiv remains Russia's main goal. But the city's mayor former world boxing champ Vitali Klitschko vows Putin's troops will not enter this


We met the mayor and his brother Wladimir Klitschko himself a former boxing champion in a secret location in Kyiv.

PLEITGEN (on camera): Do you think that you have what it takes to fend them off completely and that the city will not be taken by Russia?

VITALI KLITSCHKO, KYIV, UKRAINE MAYOR: Is our hometown, we fight us never go to the knee. We don't want to be slaves. We dumped one back to USSR to

live in dictator to live in outer terrorism. We see our country as modern European democratic country.

PLEITGEN (voice over): The Klitschko's are on the move 24/7 visiting residential areas shelled by the Russian army, sometimes getting emotional

when seeing the aftermath of Russian attacks. Putin says he's only targeting military targets.

KLITSCHKO: Boom shoots, sorry. Waves moved out target.

PLEITGEN (voice over): Comforting those affected by the war and overseeing the effort to train those looking to confront Russian forces.

PLEITGEN (on camera): You've really stepped up and really have organized the defense of the city, how did you manage to do that? Learn that so

quickly, learning on the fly.


KLITSCHKO: We don't need to organize. I meet people in blog post was very peaceful profession, artist, musician, doctors never ever have idea to take

the uniform and take the weapons in their hand, but right now, they in the street and ready to fight. Few days ago the apartments building destroyed

from racket.

One man around 60 years old, coming to me, ask what is I doing? What I have to do right now. I give him proposal to elevate him to my safe zone to west

of Ukraine. He told Mr. Klitschko, my --, I don't want to leave from my hometown. Please give me weapons. I am ready to defend my family, my lovely


Instead, the panic instead demoralization, the people motivate so much and have spirit to defend our future.

PLEITGEN (voice over): But they're up against a strong and better equipped fall as President Biden visits Europe to meet NATO allies. The Klitschko's

messages get tougher on Putin.

PLEITGEN (on camera): What are your demands? What do you guys need to continue this fight?

WLADIMIR KLITCHKO, KYIV BRIGADE OF UKRAINIAN DEFENSE FORCE: So our will is strong. And it's better and stronger than any army in any weapon. But we

definitely need to close our sky, our civilians, and our cities are getting destroyed. And it's continuing while we're giving this interview and

speaking about it, the fights are still going on, we need supply of the defensive weapons.

And you guys just need to stop any economic relationship with Russia. This way, we will isolate him making weaker and just show that international law

cannot be broken. Oil, obviously, the world needs oil and gas. But it's better to pay higher price than to pay with lives.


ANDERSON: And let me get you to Poland now where the U.S. President is speaking to troops on the ground. Let's listen in.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know a couple things. First of all, thank you, you represent 1 percent of the American people. None of

you have to be here, you all decided to be here for your country. Everyone a volunteer, every single one of you stepped up.

And the rest of the 99 percent of the rest of the country, including me owes you. And I was your big number one. Number two, you know, we're unique

country in many ways. And we're the only country, the only country in the world not based, organized based on geography or ethnicity, or religion or

race or anything else.

We're based on an idea, literally the only country in the world based on idea that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all women and men

are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.

Sounds corny, but it's the truth of who we are. We've never lived up to it. We've never walked away from it. And the rest of the world looks to us.

Because you know, we not only lead by the example of our power, but by the power of our example.

And your generation combines both. The rest of the world looks at you and sees who you are. They see you are a multi ethnic group of Americans that

are fact together and unite into one resolve to defend your country. And to help those who need help. That's why you're here.

I spent a lot of time in Ukraine when I was a senator and vice president. I've spoken to the - in the days when they in fact, didn't have what you

called democracy, and was there in the - when the former leader had to take off and head into Russia.

And so you know, with the Ukrainian people, Ukrainian people have a lot of backbone of guts. And I'm sure you're observing. And I don't mean just a

military, which is we've been trained in since back when they Russia moved into and the southeast, Ukraine.

But also the average citizen, looking how they're stepping up and how they're stepping up and you're going to see when you're there and stuff.

Have you been there?

You're going to see, you're going to see women young people stand on stand in the middle of front of damn tank. They're saying I'm not leaving, I'm

holding my ground, and they're incredible.


BIDEN: But they take a lot of inspiration from us. And you know, woman who just died, the Secretary of State used to have an expression, she said, we

are the essential nation. It sounds like a bit of hyperbole.

But the truth of the matter is you are the organizing principle around which the rest of the world is the free world is moving. We're in the midst

of and I don't want to sound too philosophic here. But you're in the midst of a fight between democracies and oligarchs.

Xi Jinping who have spent more time what tell me than any other world leader, points out to me, he believes in China that democracies can't

succeed in the 21st century. The reason is things are moving so fast changes happening so quickly, that democracy require consensus.

And we can't put together consensus as quickly as autocrats can. So what's at stake, not just in what we're doing here in Ukraine to try to help the

Ukrainian people and keep the massacre from continuing?

But beyond that, what's at stake is what's - what are your kids and grandkids going to look like in terms of their freedom? What's happening?

The last 10 years when fewer democracies have been formed than we've lost in the world.

So this is what you're engaged in as much more than just whether or not you can alleviate the pain and suffering of the people in Ukraine. We're in a

new phase, your generation, we're at an inflection point, about every four or five generations that comes along and changes fundamental change takes


The world isn't going to be the same not because of Ukraine, but I'm not going to be the same 10, 15 years now in terms of organizational

structures. And the question is who's going to prevail? Are democracies going to prevail on and the values we share, or autocracy is going to

prevail. And that's really what's at stake. So what you're doing is consequential, really consequential.

And as I said, grew up in the dining room, you all in the --. The fact of matter is that you are the finest, this is not hyperbole, and you are the

finest fighting force in the history of the world. We say it again, the finest fighting force in the history of the world.

Part of the reason is you've had to fight so much for the last 20 years. It's for real and not many generations. Now, the greatest generation was my

father's generation, your grandfather's generation, and World War II generation.

But nobody, no other generation has had to be in a battle, have your buddy blown up, wipe the blood off the Humvee and get back in and saddle up and

go for another six months.

Second time I flew, and I've been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan about 40 times 30, sometimes 38 times. And every time I go in, I'd see like the

last time I flew in, and I flew in on the cockpit. I was landing in --.

And either six people came up with a cargo basically, last slide. And I said, how many of us - your first tour duty, not one person raises their

hand, second tour, not one person. Third tour duty three, fourth, one, fifth one or sixth one this has ever happened before.

One thing to go in and be in the middle of a battle, go home and get sent back in --. And so one of the things that I've said and I've gotten in

trouble for saying but not anymore. We've seen it from since I've got elected.

We have a sacred obligation, only one obligation as government. We have a lot of obligations to the elderly, the poor, children, et cetera and we

want sacred obligation to equip those that we send to war, to care for them and their families when they come home.

And so you are amazing group of women and men. I just want to thank you for your service. As your commander in chief, I mean, from the bottom of my

heart. As I said, it's not new to me --.

My son spent a year in Iraq; he spent six months in Kosovo, won the bronze star like a speaker service medal and other awards. Proud to say we didn't

put that uniform on. Like many of you, he didn't have to go either.

He was the Attorney General of the State of Delaware in the Delaware National Guard. And what happened was when his unit was going to be sent

overseas, he had to go to Washington again, quite an equivalent of a dispensation because you either had to be fed property or state property.

He was the Attorney General of State and to give up the office in order to be able to go with his troops. The point is that there were hundreds and

thousands of people like my son like all of you.


BIDEN: So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And it's not only what you're doing to help the Ukrainian people, it's not only what you're

doing to help Europe began to gain - regain its confidence.

Reason why when the general, when the Secretary of State asked me if I send other 12,000 troops along to the United States, I said, yes, from the

United States, got 100,000 American forces here in Europe.

We haven't had that a long, long time because we are the organizing principle for the rest of the world. And I said, we've sent the best, the

best available America. And that's all of you, women and men.

So I'm here I came for one simple, basic reason not a joke. Say thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your service. Thank you for who you

are. And thank you for what you're doing.

As, as my grandfather will say, every time I walked out of his house, Joe, Joe he screamed, keep the faith, my grandmother all kidding aside, this is

serious. She - now spread it. You're spreading the faith.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. God bless you all, and keep you safe. May God protect our troops? Thank you. Thank you.

ANDERSON: We've been listening to the U.S. President visiting with American troops who are bolstering NATO's deterrence efforts in Poland. And he said

the Ukrainian people have a lot of backbone, a lot of guts and not just their military, he said.

But the average citizen, and he said to these troops, you will see this when you get there, you are in the midst between democracy and autocracy.

What's at stake here? He said is what life will be like for your kids and grandkids. We're in a new phase, he said, a new inflection point the world

is not going to be the same 10 or 15 years from now.

Question is, he said, will democracies prevail or will autocracies prevail? And he said to those troops, what you're doing is consequential. U.S.

troops are the organizing principle he said, for the rest of the world.

Melissa Bell is in Rzeszow, Present Biden talking to American troops there. Nic Robertson is in Brussels where, of course this week those crisis talks

have taken place. Let's start with you, Melissa.

A big day there, President Biden addressing troops, then we'll spend some time with the president. And he's there to show solidarity for a country

which quite frankly, has more than shouldered a responsibility for the millions displaced by this war, which of course grind on a month on. Just

describe what's going on there.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, just a very close to where I'm standing in front of the airfield here where he arrived a while ago and

just spoke to those troops. You heard that speech.

They're really I suspect, giving an idea or flavor of what we're likely to hear from him tomorrow in Warsaw already, American officials have said

he'll be making a major speech tomorrow in Warsaw.

And I suspect speaking to exactly that, the idea that what is happening in Ukraine is not just a war between Moscow and Kyiv, it is about that fight

for democracy and the battle between democracies and autocracies going forward. So I think we had a little hint of that coating, of course, the

American Declaration of Independence, we've never quite risen to it, he said, but neither have we walked away from it.

He finishes that speech then to come back to the airfield behind me where he used to meet President Duda, the Polish President, he got delayed

earlier on after a technical issue. That meant that his plane had to turn around and go back to Warsaw before he came here.

And so the program of the American president was switched around, he's finished up finishing up with the 82nd airborne division there. And off

that he'll be received by President Duda what should have happened first, before meeting with people who work for the humanitarian organizations.

So not just USAID in the shape of Ambassador Samantha Power, but also other humanitarians and that visit will really be also not just about what is

happening to help Poland deal with that refugee crisis, the more than 2.2 million refugees who come across the Polish border, it's also about helping


Look at how they're helping the many millions of Ukrainians inside the country who still need all that help the food, the water, the medical

supplies that continue to make their way across the border.

And I think most of all, what this visit by Joe Biden is about Becky is about the symbolism of the American President standing here on the Eastern

Flank of NATO. We are just 60 miles away from Ukraine's border; it is a highly symbolic visit.

One aim to really get to the bottom to the end of those words he spoke on Air Force One as he landed in Europe earlier this week to show how unified

NATO allies are.


BELL: And to show by his presence, that he means what he says it is, of course, about dealing that huge humanitarian catastrophe, Becky, he said a

miracle taking 100,000 refugees. He also wants to help coordinate and help Poland in what you described as that massive, massive humanitarian effort

has been involved in Becky.

ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. Let me get to Brussels. Thank you, Melissa. Nic, two big summits this week, the NATO summit and a summit of EU leaders,

which was addressed by President Zelensky late on Thursday is applauding Europe's leaders for adopting, "powerful sanctions against Moscow".

But he chided them for being, "a little too late" on action that might have avoided this Russian invasion a month on. Is it clear after this week what

the plan is, to put it to put a stop to this what's been achieved?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Unity has been achieved. If you think in terms of the war started, sanctions were put in

place, additional NATO troop's center, and NATO's Eastern flanks. All of that happened in a real hurry in the days and weeks immediately in the run

up to the Russia starting that war of choices, President Biden frames it in Ukraine.

So President Biden is coming here now to make sure that there's a commitment to continue this forward and to try to get more alignment on

more sanctions going forward. One of those important sanctions that he wanted to get in place that he would like to get in place was sanctions on

Russia's energy sector.

It supplies a lot of gas, liquefied natural gas and oil products to the European Union. Today, an important announcement by President Biden and

Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission President before President Biden the left here, saying that United States is going to strive to ensure

that it provides 15 billion cubic meters of natural gas by the end of the year to the European Union.

That would represent a two thirds reduction of what is the liquefied natural gas that Europe right now gets from Russia? Why is that important?

Because the energy prices here in Europe as other places are going up.

There are concerns among European leaders that those rising energy prices are hurting their own constituents. So before putting additional sanctions

on Russia, which is what President Biden would like to see, they need they need to offset that.

And I spoke to Kyriakos Mitsotakis, the Greek Prime Minister about the economic pain he and others already feeling here, this are what he told me.


KYRIAKOS MITSOTAKIS, GREEK PRIME MINISTER: We are all already paying a price. I think we certainly all need to reassess our growth forecasts,

we're faced with significant inflationary pressures as a result of the war. And energy costs are really hurting, and they're hurting our citizens.

But at the end of the day, as much as we have an allegiance to support Ukraine, we also have an allegiance to our citizens to make sure that they

do not suffer more than they can actually bear.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Is America getting ahead of the pain that Europe can bear on this with what America would like to see if President Biden would

like to see happen?

MITSOTAKIS: I mean the truth is that the U.S. is much less dependent on Russian gas than Europe is this is a reality. And of course, the energy

transition now, before Europe, this is no longer just a climate story. It's a geopolitical story.


ROBERTSON: And it's much bigger than just an economic story, Becky. And that was one point Prime Minister Mitsotakis made very clear to me; he

said, you know, not just the rising prices of energy, but also the influx of refugees.

We've saw that back in 2015 how destabilizing politically that can be in Europe. Greece has taken a huge number of refugees 15,000, they have their

right now, coming from Ukraine, the knowledge and feeling that they need to help more.

But this I think is going to be what we see more of now going forward. Where do things stand today? Well, Europe is beginning to feel the economic

pain of that war in Ukraine.

And also will have to deal with a political reality, an outfall of having so many millions of refugees to help take care of. Recent history has shown

just how destabilizing that can be, that worries leaders in the European Union.

ANDERSON: Absolutely. Nic is in Brussels for you folks. Thank you. Well, Nic is in Brussels. Melissa is on the ground in Poland. To both of you,

thank you. We'll get back to you.

Mr. Biden and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen have announced a joint task force to help reduce dependence on Russian oil and

gas and deprive Vladimir Putin of the profits he needs to "drive his war machine" as they have suggested.

The panel will be tasked to find alternative supplies of liquefied natural gas. The Biden Administration says the U.S. will work with others to send

additional gas supplies to Europe.


ANDERSON: Well, I sat down exclusively with Qatar's Minister of State for Energy Affairs, who says his nation will stand in solidarity with Europe

and keeps natural gas flowing. I started by asking Saad al-Kaabi about the role the U.S. will play in the future of energy production.


SAAD SHERIDA AL-KAABI, QATARI MINISTER OF STATE FOR ENERGY AFFAIRS: I think, definitely the U.S. is going to be, you know, one of the largest

suppliers, if not the largest supplier at some point in time, because they're building a lot of LNG terminal capacity, and they have ample

abundance of gas in the U.S.

So we ourselves are building a terminal to supply Europe. So I think it's a big opportunity for the U.S. But that has been planned for a while because

that's the closest destination and the biggest market.

ANDERSON: The U.S. is leaning heavily on Europe at present to immediately cut Russian energy imports. Is that feasible to your mind?

AL-KAABI: I think, you know, replacing Russian supplies of gas, you have to look at the numbers. And when you look at the numbers, today, somewhere in

the range of 30 to 40 percent of the total supply of gas comes from Russia. So to actually say that we - you know, European can replace that gas. It's

not practically possible.

ANDERSON: Do you expect a plan to jointly buy fuel from big suppliers like Qatar Energy? I'm just thinking about Europe will go about this?

AL-KAABI: If the governments decide that they want to buy as governments I think, I haven't not seen that yet. It hasn't happened in the past. But

everybody in Europe is talking to us and other LNG suppliers because they want to diversify their gas supplies.

ANDERSON: Qatar is clearly a great opportunity for Europe, as Europe is leant on heavily by Washington to wean itself off Russian gas. What does

Qatar supply at present?

AL-KAABI: The contract that we actually supply to Europe, our divertible, a majority are divertible, whatever it's in continental Europe or the UK. And

what we have actually committed to the Europeans is that the volumes that are divertible, we are not going to divert.

So we'll keep them during this circumstance, keep them in Europe, even if there was a financial game for us to divert away, we would not do that. And

that's in solidarity with what's going on in Europe.

ANDERSON: By clearly getting involved in supporting, as you describe it, solidarity for Europe in this time of crisis. Does that damage your

relations with the Kremlin?

AL-KAABI: I don't think it does. It's, you know, we're an energy supplier. We've been supplying Europe all along, so all the volumes that we're taking

to Europe have been destined for Europe. So we're just saying we're keeping that and not diverting away.

ANDERSON: Let me put it another way, are you choosing a side at this point because to date, Qatar hasn't chosen aside in this war?

AL-KAABI: We are not. You know, from a business perspective, we don't choose sides, we act as a business and we do our business and our guests

business is driven by business, not by politics.

ANDERSON: So what is the impact on Asia? You're not saying you're not turning your back on the Asian consumers? Is that what you're telling me?

AL-KAABI: No, not at all. We've been the only company or maybe the largest company as far as percentage wise, signing long term deals with the Asian

customers. We've signed several deals in the last three years for long term.

So we have supply and we want to diversify our buyers too. So we have we think it's going to be right in the middle would be about 50, 50 when all

is said and done. Our vision is or our plan is we want to be 50 percent east of Suez, 50 percent west of Suez. Whether it becomes 60, 40 or

thereabouts, but that's the target.

ANDERSON: And what are the levels at the moment.

AL-KAABI: Now, it's probably I would say 80, 20 or 85, 15 somewhere in that range.

ANDERSON: Do you think the west is doing the right thing in sanctioning Russian energy?

AL-KAABI: Energy part is difficult to deal with. I think the energy should stay out of politics because it tampers development and it can affect

prices the way it has. And it has lot of volatility, so keeping energy sector out of the political decisions and political sanctions is better

for, you know, human growth and development around the world.


ANDERSON: You could argue this is the first crisis of the energy transition as Europe tries to wean itself off Russian energy by resorting to coal, for

example. So, so again, what's the impact do you think of this Ukraine crisis?

AL-KAABI: I think it's very negative for the transition because you see coal being used at the highest level ever. Everybody rightfully so are

looking at their energy security, ahead of other long term gains that they're trying to get. But I think we can do that as an energy industry in

a responsible way.

ANDERSON: Europe has traditionally or certainly over the past decade or so had little interest in doing more business with Qatar. How does it feel to

have the Europeans knocking on your door at this point?

AL-KAABI: It's always it's always nice to be wanted whether it's in business or life you know, so I think the importance of gas has been

amplified. And I think we're lucky to be in the position we're in with the grace of God. And we've worked to be in that position, it's not something

that we got you known, just free it.


ANDERSON: That's the Qatar Energy Minister speaking to me earlier. While the possibility of Qatar replacing Russian gas supplies in the near term is

limited by, amongst other things, a complicated production and transportation process without a network of pipelines from places like

Qatar to Europe.

Natural gas must first be purified and converted into a liquefied form so that it can be shipped and that is liquefied natural gas or LNG is created

through a specialized cooling process. It's then carried on massive tanker ships and transported to processing terminals. Those terminals convert the

liquid back to a gaseous state so it can be delivered to consumers through pipelines.

Germany, for one currently doesn't have any such facilities. It has though, announced the construction of two terminals, but those could take years to

build, just a quick take for you on LNG. Well, President Biden warning Russia not to use chemical weapons in Ukraine. Ahead I talked with somebody

who served in the Obama Administration when Syria crossed the "red line".



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would the U.S. or NATO respond with military action if he did use chemical weapons?

BIDEN: We would respond, we would respond if he uses it. The nature of the response would depend on the nature of the use.

ANDERSON: U.S. President Joe Biden there with a stern although somewhat vague warning to Russia against using chemical weapons in Ukraine, Mr.

Biden is now in Poland less than 100 kilometers from the Ukrainian border. We saw him addressing U.S. troops just moments ago, and he'll also be

speaking with the Polish President later, and he will meet with Ukrainian refugees tomorrow.

Let's remember, Ukraine, shouldering the three and a half million refugees, most of them who have made their way from Ukraine, not necessarily all in

the country at present, but enormous amount of refugees are made their way through Poland.

Well, let's talk more about Mr. Biden's warning to Russia to not use WMDs. Robert Cardillo served for decades in the U.S. intelligence community,

including, as U.S. deputy Intelligence Director for the Obama Administration during the Syrian war.

It's good to have you with us. I was reminded when reading an article in The Atlantic recently, it was by Ben Rhodes. And he reminded his readers

that in August 2012, Obama was asked about what could lead him to use military force in Syria.

And he said, "We have been very clear to the Assad regime". He said that a red line for us is when we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons

is moving around or being utilized, that would change my calculus.

Well, history tells us that, in fact, the calculus wasn't changed and that the weapons weren't used against military force wasn't used against the

Assad regime, when indeed, they did use chemical weapons.

As you listen to Joe Biden, yesterday, that period of time in your life must have been sort of working through your mind. Just give me a sense of

what you believe or where you believe Joe Biden is at this point, and how that relates to what happened back in 2012?

ROBERT CARDILLO, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. GEOSPATIAL-INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Well, thanks, Becky, I think that President Biden is learning the lessons,

the experience in Syria. And to me, at least one of the lessons was to keep options open in a way that provides you some chance to elevate should the

circumstances demand or to or to moderate. So I think everything they're doing now is to keep all those options open.

ANDERSON: What are these options at this point?

CARDILLO: So, you know, famous first two words from an intelligence official, it depends, but clearly, the president and his team are going to

want to be able to scale their response. And look, as you know, my job under President Obama was to bring him the intelligence case upon which he

would make his policy decision.

And so in this case, in that case, and in this case, my expectation is that first reports are going to be unclear. There's going to be dueling claims

of responsibility. There's going to be false narratives, maybe even some deep fakes, posted into social media to confuse the situation.

So I think the president and his team need to be ready for that moment when there's going to be this dueling accusations. And then I think, you know,

as soon as we can get to clarity and of course, the intelligence community will be a part of that.

But let's face it, it's a connected world and so, so social media will play a role. Local officials will play a role. And I think, I mean, to my mind,

step one is to isolate the claim. And to add a tribute who's responsible? Once you once you do that, then you have your levers depending on the

magnitude of the attack.

ANDERSON: I guess the question at this point 10 years or a decade on from the use of this term last time; will we hear the use of the term red line

by the U.S. president?

CARDILLO: No, I would, I would almost guarantee you will not hear that because look, it's a corner that they put themselves in when you use that

term. And that's not where you want to be. I mean, you want I mean, to my mind they want to keep President Putin in Russia in the corner.


CARDILLO: Should they choose to escalate, should they choose to introduce any sort of, you know, chemical warfare to my mind that further isolates

further strengthens further strengthens the resolve of the international community to apply consequences and again that's the key question, what

level would we go to and response.

ANDERSON: Robert, good to have you on sir. Thank you. We're taking a very short break back after this.


ANDERSON: Number of people fleeing the war in Ukraine keeps rising every day. The U.N. refugee agency now says more than 4 million Ukrainians have

left their homeland to help ease the humanitarian crisis brewing in Europe and it is a crisis.

The U.S. is planning to accept up to 100,000 of those Ukrainian refugees. Look that is a drop in the bucket not even enough to fill some college

football stadiums, just three hundredths of a percent of the U.S. population of roughly 332 million people.

Look at the numbers here, Island, a nation of 5 million people has already welcomed 10,000 Ukrainian refugees roughly two tenths of a percent of its

population. And Poland has taken in the most number of refugees from Ukraine with a population of more than 38 million. Poland has absorbed 2.2

million, nearly 6 percent of its population.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian refugees seeking shelter further west in the UK are struggling to get there. The UKs homes for Ukraine program are giving

residents funds to host Ukrainian refugees in their homes. But frustration is growing over long wait times during the visa application process. Nada

Bashir shows the toll that this long wait is taking on those involved.


NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER (voice over): After an agonizing wait, Victoria and her mother have finally been reunited in London, life returning to what

little normality is left after Russian forces closed in on their hometown of --.

Like many Ukrainian refugees, Victoria's parents fled first to Moldova and then Romania. But actually getting to the UK where Victoria has lived for

more than a decade proved to be one of the most difficult parts of their journey.

VICTORIA AND ANDRIY, UKRAINIAN-BRITISH FAMILY: I was the only source of information and I was guiding them through like you know, step by step what

to do, helping with the applications, so it was all hectic, there were no instructions.

BASHIR (voice over): Government data shows thousands of Ukrainians hoping to join relatives in the UK are still waiting for their applications to be

processed. A separate scheme set up to allow UK citizens to open up their homes to refugees is also proving to be riddled with red tape. Only in the

fine print our applicants told they'll need to find someone to sponsor on their own.


ELSA DE JAGER, HOST, UK "HOMES FOR UKRAINE" SCHEME: It feels genuinely every step of the way, as a deterrent to people applying. That's how it


BASHIR (voice over): Hoping to open up her London home to someone in need, Elsa connected with a support group helping Ukrainian refugees on Facebook.

It's here she connected with Yana still in Ukraine with her four year old daughter desperately trying to make it across the border in the hope of

reaching the UK.

JAGER: I mean it's so frustrating because our houses are sitting, not empty. But the rooms are sitting empty. There's room for people today to

come in.

BASHIR (on camera): This shouldn't be this kind of red tape when people are getting bombed every day. Do you think that's intentional?

JAGER: I think it's absolutely intentional is absolutely intentional. It's in my mind a PR stunt to say we're going to open UK homes to refugees.

BASHIR (voice over): The two are perfect strangers. But they've been required to share sensitive personal documents with one another as part of

the application process. And Yana in turn left a trust in Elsa's generosity.

JAGER: If something happens to them whilst we're waiting for somebody behind a desk to put a stamp on it on a visa for them. I mean, I don't know

how it feels but I'd be more than devastated.

BASHIR (voice over): The government has said Ukrainians are welcome, asserting that it schemes will allow refugees to live and work in the UK

for up to three years. But there is growing impatience about Britain's approach, which they see as more bureaucratic than some of Ukraine's


LAURA KYRKE-SMITH, UK EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE: But it still involves this lengthy process to apply for a visa and what a

far better system would be is for visas to be waived all together. Every human being has the right to seek asylum under international law.

BASHIR (voice over): The UK Home Office says it's streamlined its visa application process in order to help people as quickly as possible, but for

so many, the experience has been far from straightforward.

VICTORIA: If government is afraid that this people will stay here for longer term, I don't think that's the case because their families are still

there. Men are still in Ukraine fighting. As soon as there is a chance they will go back home.

BASHIR (voice over): Despite the devastation at home, Victoria's mother, like so many remains hopeful she will one day is able to return to a

peaceful country, her life no longer in limbo. Nada Bashir, CNN, London.


ANDERSON: Well, the ripple effects of this war being felt across countries, across industries and science as well. Ahead on the show my conversation

with the Head of the European Space Agency which has just suspended a joint Mars rover mission with Russia.


ANDERSON: We are only beginning to see our Russia's invasion of Ukraine is destroying cooperation between nations. Last week the European Space Agency

suspended its $1.2 billion Mars rover project with Russia saying it is "fully aligned with the sanctions imposed on Russia by its member states".

The rover was set to be launched this September. The Head of Russia space agency Roscosmos calls the decision a pity. And said Russia will start

working on its own mars mission "without any European friends with their tails tucked in from the American shout".


ANDERSON: Well, I spoke with the Director General of the ESA, Josef Aschbacher. I started by asking him to explain why that decision was made.


JOSEF ASCHBACHER, EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY DIRECTOR GENERAL: One reason is that the sanctions, which all the member States of the European Space

Agency, but also our partners in the U.S. have been putting on Russia make it practically impossible to now launch this model, so over to the mars

surface with Russia.

So this is it, making it practically impossible, but also politically, of course, geopolitically, it is clear that we need to sever our ties with

Russia. And this decision has been made by the member states. So yes, it's rather unfortunate for all the science and technology and the engineers who

have been working on this for decades. But there's no other choice to make.

ANDERSON: Russia now says it will work alone on a Mars mission and says it has great doubts about what the ESA can do without it. Do you share those


ASCHBACHER: No, I don't share these concerns at all. We have a very resilient, very strong space program. Of course, as a consequence, now of

this one particular mission, we have to rethink what we do in other domains.

I mean, this is one of many projects, which we have; we have so many other undertaking. So where we work with other partners, NASA, for example, is a

very trusted partner with whom we work on --on future Mars, simply turn on science and many other domains.

But also with --, we have a very strong space component. But it is clear, though, that this walk in the Ukraine needs us to re think some of the

elements of cooperation and make us even more resilient and stronger. But certainly, what I want to achieve is getting out of this crisis with a

stronger, more strategically autonomous space sector in Europe.

ANDERSON: Just explain what you are doing on cyber resilience? As I understand it, Europe's agencies launched a cyber-resilience package back

in October, in anticipation it seems of a breakdown with in relations with Russia. How concerned are you about cyber-attacks?

ASCHBACHER: I'm concerned absolutely and we are regularly very carefully watching the situation day and night, as you can imagine, we do.


ANDERSON: That was the Head of the ESA; I do want to get you to Poland, where Joe Biden, the U.S. President is discussing one of the focal points

of his visit the growing refugee crisis there. Let's listen in.

BIDEN: As you and I have spoken before, Mr. Ambassador, I'm sure, Mr. President, the single most important thing that we can do from the outset,

is keep the democracies united in our opposition, and our effort to curtail devastation that is occurring at the hands of a man who, quite frankly,

think is a worker.

And I think we'll meet the legal definition of that as well. But I want to thank everyone. For, I think it's been a surprise that we've all stayed

together, across the board. The most severe punishing sanctions in the history of the world, economic sanctions have been imposed.

And there's more that will come. But you know there's still an awful lot of suffering. I, like many of you, in the past have been through refugee

camps, all around the world, literally, and see the devastation as a consequence of people who are abandoned, and in war ravaged regions of the

world, whether it's in the Middle East, or Africa, or wherever.

It's just devastating to see those little babies or children and looking at mothers who you don't have to understand the language they speak. You see

in their eyes, pain, and I mean, literally pain, watching their children.

I don't think there's anything worse for a parent than to see a child suffering, their child suffering. I mean, that's necessarily it's not

hyperbole emitted from the bottom my heart. And so what you, the humanitarian community are doing is of such an enormous consequence.

Brother, this is what we say we're about, this we say what our obligations are, but you're living up to it. We're doing it every day, all of you that

are sitting at this table. And so, you know, I'm here in Poland to see firsthand humanitarian crisis. And quite frankly part of my disappointment

is that I can't see it firsthand like I have in other places.


BIDEN: They will not let me understandably; I guess it crossed the border and take a look what's going on in, in Ukraine. But, you know, I'm eager to

hear from you and humanitarian community about what you see what you're doing, and where you think we go from here because you're doing it every


As we pointed out 10 million people have been displaced thus far. 3.8 million People to other countries, including more than a million children

and according to the U.N., there are thousands of civilian casualties, 12 million in need of assistance.

But hundreds of thousands of people are being cut off from help by Russian forces and our embassies in places like Mariupol. I mean, I started

stopping it's like something out of a science fiction --to turn on the television and see what these towns look like in city.

I want to thank each one of you in your organization, excuse me. We're busy in our troops may had pizza pie with hot peppers on it. But you know you're

helping millions of people, millions of people.

And we must have to continue to scale up that assistance coordinated closely with the Government of Ukraine, which is really I think even the

polls, where no, Ukraine, so well have to be a little bit surprised at how what how much courage and passionate to resilience the Ukrainian people.

When you see a 30-year-old woman standing there in front of a tank with a rifle, I mean, talk about what happened in Tiananmen Square, as Tiananmen

Square. And look, whether it's food - or cash, or the care for medical teams that we send in for our child welfare specialist, they need it now,

they needed as rapidly as we can get it.

And so yesterday, I announced on behalf of the American people, we're prepared to provide another 1 billion as the ambassador point out $1

billion for those who fled, and those who are affected around the world, as a consequence of the negative impact of this war on food security.

Bad news is their breadbasket of the world, Ukraine and Russia. But we, the United States are going to do our part because we're the third largest

producer of wheat in the world, and our Canadian friends are going to do the same thing.

But we're going to try very hard. But in the meantime, the suffering that's taking place now is at your doorstep. You're the ones are risking, in some

cases, your life and risking all, you know, to try to help and the American people are proud to support your efforts.

And today, I want to hear from all of you. The problem is and I know they're going to tell me I have to get on the plane. I have to leave it; I

have a lot of questions because I really mean it.

I learned a great deal from you and your counterparts as I travel the world in the last 30 years. And so I'm honored that President Putin is here today

and joined by Secretary Blinken, an old friend.

As well as my Secretary of State and our USAID Administrator, Samantha Powers, who, like my sister, whatever I say she says it's not enough. It's

not enough. I don't get to do more. And this is a workforce. So but I'm now going to turn it back to her screen --.

SAMANTHA POWER, HEAD OF THE U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. President. Present dude, I'd love it if

you'd like to say a few words. And before you do, though, just I think on behalf of the entire humanitarian community, we just want to extend our

thanks to you for the way that you and the Polish people have opened your borders, your hearts, your homes, the generosity and the show of solidarity

has been breathtaking. Thank you so much, sir, over to you.

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Thank you very much, Madam Ambassador. Excellency, Mr. President, Secretary, Madam Ambassador, Polish and American

friends please. If you can take these electronic devices and use it Channel Two's English because I would like to speak in my mother tongue Polish.