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Khan: I had Perfectly Good Relations with Trump Admin; Life in Prison for Russian Soldier Convicted of War Crimes; CNN Speaks to South Korea's new President; Separatist Leader: Tribunals ahead for Azovstal Soldiers; Photojournalist Wins Pulitzer Prize for Afghanistan Work; Manchester City Stage Epic Comeback to Clinch Title. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired May 23, 2022 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN, London. This is "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST, CONNECT THE WORLD: This hour a Russian soldier has been sentenced to life in prison for killing an unarmed man in
Ukraine's first war crimes trial since the invasion by Russia began, more on that in a moment.
But first I want to take you to Asia, where U.S. President Joe Biden currently is and for my exclusive interview with Pakistan's Former Prime
Minister Imran Khan. I'm Becky Anderson. Hello and welcome back to "Connect the World".
U.S. President Joe Biden causing whiplash today, his comments on defending Taiwan more on that in a moment but first to Pakistan where the Former
Prime Minister is claiming once again that the Biden Administration is the root of his political problems.
Imran Khan continues to tout an unsubstantiated claim that an American led conspiracy is the reason he was ousted from power last month. Khan was
removed by no confidence vote over allegations of economic mismanagement, the country facing depleting foreign exchange reserves and skyrocketing
inflation. Shehbaz Sharif whose family dynasty is no stranger to scandal itself now leads the country until the next general election which is
expected in 2023.
However, Imran Khan is calling for early elections and for the nation to follow him on a "Long march" on Islamabad just two days from now, he says
his march is not about politics, but it's a revolution. Pakistan's Information Minister says Khan is showing his desperation at the expense of
the country.
Well, in his first interview with international media since being removed from power, he tells me that am Imran Khan, how he believes the United
States interfered to have him ousted.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IMRAN KHAN, FORMER PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER: On the 7th of March, Becky, Undersecretary of State, the U.S. who's responsible for South Asia, he
calls our ambassador - meeting between our Ambassador in Washington, he tells that Ambassador in an official meeting, there are no takers on both
sides.
He tells the Ambassador that unless you get rid of your Prime Minister Imran Khan in a vote of no confidence, which by the way hadn't been tabled
as yet, but he seemed to know about it. He said unless you get rid of Pakistan will suffer consequences.
And then goes on to say, of course, if you get rid of him through the vote of no confidence, all will be forgiven. Such arrogance apart from anything
else, by the way, Becky, this guy should be sacked for bad manners and sheer arrogance.
Imagine telling a country - Ambassador of a country of 220 million people that you get to get rid of your Prime Minister. So this is where it started
the next day. Next day this vote of no confidence is rivaled in our Parliament and--
ANDERSON: Imran why have you never made this public before? You are being very specific about what you allege was said?
KHAN: Well, Becky, I put it in front of our cabinet. This cipher was read out in the cabinet. There minutes of the cabinet, then I presented it to
our National Security Council where all the service chiefs are present. Why did I present them because this was a blatant intervention in the internal
affairs of Pakistan, a regime change?
ANDERSON: As Foreign Minister at the time, did you get in touch with you U.S. President with the U.S. Secretary of State? What happened?
KHAN: We, the National Security Council decided to give a - protested to the U.S. in Pakistan and in the Washington. We issued this this is all
minute. Then we present it to the Parliament Committee, then the Speaker of Parliament, then the President of Pakistan who has this cipher, he sent it
to the Chief Justice of Pakistan, that there should be an inquiry held in this blatant interference in the internal affairs of Pakistan.
ANDERSON: Pakistan's new Foreign Minister says the United States and his country are entering a new engagement after what has been years of strained
relations. And you and I have talked about those strained relations under your Premiership. Do you believe for the sake of Pakistan that it is better
to have a good relationship with the United States?
[11:05:00]
KHAN: Becky, I had perfectly good relationship with the Trump Administration. It's only when the Biden Administration came and it
coincided with what was happening in Afghanistan. And for some reason, which I still know me never - they never got in touch with me.
There was no U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan. I have no idea. But look, my point is very simple. 220 million people of Pakistan elected me. My first
responsibility is to the people of Pakistan. My responsibility is for the well-being we have 50 million people living below the poverty line. So when
Russia offers us 30 percent discount on oil and 30 percent discount on wheat imports India does the same.
India imports, India's part of the Quad part of the strategic alliance with the U.S., India imports oil from the U.S., but for some reason, this was
taken against me as if I was being anti-U.S. or anti-American.
ANDERSON: The U.S. let me repeat has rubbished the notion that they have been involved in regime change in Pakistan. You continue to assert what
they suggest is a conspiracy theory here. Do you genuinely believe that the U.S. has been behind a regime change in Pakistan?
KHAN: Before this happened before this meeting with Donald - and our Ambassador? The U.S. Embassy was calling members of my party who were some
of the backbenchers who were not happy. They were having meetings of the U.S. Embassy.
And what were the meeting them and they were the first ones who then jumped ship. And they were the ones who then offered a million dollars each to buy
my other members of parliament who actually jumped ship later on. Why would the U.S. Embassy be interested in backbenchers of our party?
ANDERSON: So is the current government and American implant?
KHAN: It's with the blessings. And you know, the painful thing, Becky is not just that, everyone, we all call it important government. But the worst
thing is, there are a bunch of criminals for 30 years, these guys have been plundering the country 60 percent of the cabinet is on bail.
ANDERSON: You were in Russia meeting President Putin the day he announced the war in Ukraine. The optics didn't and don't look good, do they?
KHAN: That didn't, Becky but let me explain to you. This visit was planned a long time back. And all the stakeholders in Pakistan were on board. The
military wanted hardware from the Russians. We wanted oil there was a gas pipeline, which was being negotiated for the past six years before my
government came in.
So this trip was planned a long time before. How would I know that the day I land in Moscow President Putin once decides to go into Ukraine? I was--
ANDERSON: Do you regret that trip now?
KHAN: I would regret if all this - if we had known about the invasion. And then I had gone in I guess I would have regretted it because I do not
believe in military solutions. I have opposed all military ways of achieving political ends. So but I wasn't supposed to know.
ANDERSON: Imran Khan, will you run again? Will you run again as Prime Minister in the next elections?
KHAN: Whenever the next elections take place, not only will we run, but I can predict right now that this will become the biggest party in Pakistan's
history, because people are so incensed and feel insulted that these criminals have been foisted upon us who have been plundering this country
for 30 years.
There is anger in Pakistan. And unfortunately because of all this coming back becoming public, the cipher Donald - comments, who should be sacked
for bad manners, this anti-Americanism because you know, that so many regime changes whether U.S. like in Iran, Prime Minister like in a South
American countries, when you - when unpopular governments are foisted on a people, the resentment that goes to do against the U.S. And unfortunately
yes, there is anti-Americanism right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Well, that's Imran Khan in his first interview with international media since his ousting. We have reached out to the U.S. State Department
today following my interview.
[11:10:00]
ANDERSON: Well, that's Imran Khan and his first interview with International Media since he's ousting. We have reached out to the U.S.
State Department today following my interview, they again denied the allegations by saying there is absolutely no truth to them.
And on April the fourth, the State Department said, "we support the peaceful upholding of constitutional democratic principles. That is the
case. In Pakistan, it is the case around the world. We do not support one political party over another.
We support the broader principles, the principles of rule of law of equal justice under the law.
And we also reached out to Pakistan's current government, which we have not heard back yet. But right before April the 2017, Pakistan's Information
Minister said and I quote him here, "people of Pakistan are questioning Imran over his false corruption narrative they are asking him why he not
proved any corruption with all his abuse of powers for four years".
And apologies for the technical glitch there as we were wanting to bring that up that statement for you on the screen we're moving on to Ukrainian a
first since Russia's invasion. A court in --found a Russian soldier guilty of war crimes in the first such trial.
Since Russia invaded nearly three months ago, the 21 year old was sentenced to life in prison for shooting and killing an unarmed civilian. He has 30
days to appeal. Meantime, Ukraine's president met virtually with world economic leaders gathered in Davos, Switzerland today.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy says up to 100 people are dying every day defending Eastern Ukraine and he urged nations to send more weapons and to maximize
sanctions on Russia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Do not wait for fatal shots. Do not wait for Russia to use special chemical and biological and God forbid
nuclear weapons. Do not create an image in the aggressor's mind that the world won't repel enough.
You need to straightaway apply maximum effort to protect the freedom and the normal beneficial for everyone in the world. This is what sanctions
should be maximum in order for Russia or any other potential aggressor who wants to wage war and its neighbor to know straight away what the result
will be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, CNN's Melissa Bell joins us live from Kyiv today. Let's start with the guilty verdict and life sentence for this Russian soldier.
As I understand it, this is or potentially is just the first of many such trials, correct?
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've just been speaking I in fact, Becky, we've just come from an interview with Ukraine's chief prosecutor who said
that she was satisfied with the way due process had been respected in this court ruling.
But there were 13,000 more recorded war crimes for Ukraine's judiciary to get through. And for now, it's just not going to have the number of
prosecutors, it needs to do that.
But she is very satisfied that it has been able to get to the end of this verdict in the first trial, because there are she says, so many more to
come. Bear in mind, Becky also, that the point of this process was to begin bringing justice for this unarmed civilian who was killed on the fourth day
of the war by Vadim Shishimarin, who would admit his guilt from the outset.
But had defended him by saying that he'd been following orders bear in mind that this trial happens as the war rages in the east of the country, but
elsewhere as well and even as those 100 lives are being lost, according to President Zelenskyy every day, on the front lines of Ukraine, this was an
important message as well said the prosecutor speaking just after the sentence was handed down to those Russian soldiers still fighting in
Ukraine, have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDRIY SUNYUK, PROSECUTOR: I think that all other law enforcement agencies will move along the path we have traveled. This will be a good example for
other occupiers who may not yet be on our territory, but are planning to come or those who are here now and plan to stay and fight. Or maybe they
will think that it's time to leave here for their own territory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BELL: Now, it's important to remember that this is a civilian court, judging and in the end ruling and carrying out - announcing the sentence,
bringing lane, bringing hunting down its verdict rather Becky, on Vadim Shishimarin with regard to a particular article of Ukrainian law.
And that is that he was found guilty of premeditated murder in violation of the customs and rules of war. But this was a civilian tribunal. It is not a
war crimes tribunal.
And the evidence that has been gathered right now here in Ukraine, there's 13,000 war crimes that have been documented by Ukrainian authorities. They
say they are looking forward to the ICC being able to have a look at because it is only the international courts that have the jurisdictions and
the ability to look at crimes like crimes against humanity, the legality or not of this invasion to begin with.
[11:15:00]
BELL: And they believe that by collecting with the help of all of international forensic teams here on the ground looking at the specific
details of what they can record about the specific war crimes that are alleged to have been committed, that this will then help international
justice to do its job Becky.
ANDERSON: Melissa Bell is in Kyiv for you, thank you. You're watching "Connect the World" with me Becky Anderson lives day from London for you.
Still ahead, the harrowing wait for information for a wife whose husband surrendered to Russian forces, the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol.
And Joe Biden went to Asia to talk about countering China's economic might but he had another warning for Beijing, details of his controversial
statement in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Joe Biden's visit to Tokyo on Monday went as expected except for one surprise. As expected, Mr. Biden got Japan to sign on to a new trade
agreement that seeks to blunt China's influence in Asia.
But Mr. Biden also raised the eyebrows by signaling that the U.S. would get involved militarily if China invades Taiwan, have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You didn't want to get involved in the Ukraine conflict militarily for obvious reasons. Are you willing to get involved
militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are.
BIDEN: That's the commitment we made. We agree with the One China policy. We signed on to it and all the attendant agreements made from there. But
the idea that that can be taken by force, just taken by force is just not it's just not appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, U.S. officials were said to be surprised by the President's statement and the White House says the U.S. has not changed its policy on
Taiwan. CNN White House Correspondent Jeremy Diamond traveling with the president, he joins us live from Tokyo.
Not the first time that Biden or at least we are told that the U.S. President Joe Biden has slipped his words as it were, Jeremy your sense?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. And I think it's notable that this walk back that we got from a White House
official just moments after the president made those comments.
It's the same statement that they've issued twice before when President Biden has also put into question this policy of strategic ambiguity, a
White House official saying, quote, "Our policy has not changed, and insisting that the president said something to that effect".
But in fact, if you listen to the President's words, that was as we just heard them in that clip that you played the President is pretty unambiguous
without caveat saying that the U.S. would intervene militarily should change China move to invade Taiwan?
[11:20:00]
DIAMOND: Yes. He also says that the U.S. still stands by its one China policy whereby it acknowledges China's claim to Taiwan, but does not
officially accept it nor endorse that position and still maintains, of course, those unofficial diplomatic relations with Taiwan.
But again, the fact that the President has done this not once, twice, but now three times and this time, frankly, in the most forceful way possible,
really does suggest a change in U.S. policy, despite what the White House is now saying.
Of course, China, we saw are forcefully condemning these words, but it is notable, of course, they see how the President is defining them now
suggesting that he would intervene militarily, Becky.
ANDERSON: Is his China policy on this trip across the board becoming clear? DIAMOND: Well, I think that obviously, you have the national security and
the economic dynamics to this trip. But on the economic front, the President's Indo Pacific economic framework is that attempt by President
Biden to do what he has talked about since coming into office, which is to say that the U.S. wants competition, economic competition with China, but
not confrontation.
And in this way, he hopes that this new framework will help the U.S. reassert its economic influence over the Indo Pacific pushback on China's
growing economic dominance in the region.
But it is notable that it is not as strong as the Trans Pacific Partnership, which President Trump pulled out of. Now on the national
security front, we've heard President Biden repeatedly emphasizing on this trip the importance of free maritime travel and respect for maritime law in
this Indo Pacific region.
He has also talked about respect for the Taiwan Strait. There are a number of disputes over several islands, of course, between China and Japan, for
example. But what's been interesting, Becky is the fact that China has really been the subtext of so much of what President Biden has talked about
here.
He's made very few explicit mentions of China except when asked in certain questions; it was on that first day where we heard President Biden talk
about supply chains you referenced Russia and Putin.
But the subtext of that, again, was China talking about the need for the U.S., South Korea, Japan, to work together more closely economically,
talking about likeminded countries working together rather than relying on autocracies again, like China?
ANDERSON: Yes, fascinating. Jeremy, thank you. Just days after hosting President Biden in Seoul, South Korea's new President sat down with CNN for
his first media interview since taking office earlier this month, speaking exclusively to my colleague Paula Hancocks.
President Yoon Suk Yeol signal that the age of appeasing North Korea is over. Paula Hancocks joining us now from the South Korean capital and just
explain how significant this narrative pivot is by the new president?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Becky, President Yoon Suk Yeol may only be two weeks into the job, but he is definitely putting his mark on
North Korean policy. Now he has said that he believes that the, his predecessors approach towards North Korea has failed.
And he also has pointed out that he believes if Kim Jong-Un, the North Korean leader wants to start dialogue then he has to be the one to initiate
it. But of course it is a very big if.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HANCOCKS (voice over): South Korea's new President Yoon Suk Yeol sets up a new sign for his desk, a gift from U.S. President Joe Biden who was just in
Seoul, a popular quote from the late U.S. President Harry Truman.
A former prosecutor just two weeks into his presidency and fresh from a summit with Biden, Yoon is now dealing with North Korea expected to launch
a long range missile or conduct an underground nuclear test any day.
YOON SUK YEOL, SOUTH KOREAN PRESIDENT: Our response will be stronger and firmer than it has been before. We will coordinate closely with our U.S.
counterparts.
HANCOCKS (on camera): But in Kim Jong Un, you have a leader who's given a five year plan of what he wants to achieve militarily, he seems to have no
interest in talking whatsoever. How do you convince him to talk?
YEOL: I think the ball is in Chairman Kim's court. It is his choice to start a dialogue with us. I do not want North Korea to collapse. My hope is
for North Korea to prosper alongside South Korea.
HANCOCKS (voice over): At the same time Yoon says he believes his predecessor's policy of prioritizing dialogue with North Korea has failed.
YEOL: Just to temporarily escape North Korean provocation or conflict is not something that we should do. Many callers serve all diplomacy but the
policy of being over concerned about the other side's feelings does not work and has proven to be a failure in the past five years.
[11:25:00]
HANCOCKS (voice over): South Korea is one of 13 nations President Biden announced today as joining his new Indo Pacific economic framework, already
criticized by China, South Korea's largest trading partner.
YEOL: Even if we strengthen our alliances with the United States in security and technology, it does not mean that we think our economic
cooperation with China is unimportant. So I do not believe it is reasonable for China to be overly sensitive about this matter.
HANCOCKS (voice over): President Yoon says he believes China should abide by the rules based international order. At a time when that order is under
pressure around the world, South Korea's president is clear that his country's future, at least for the next five years, is firmly by the side
of the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HANCOCKS: Now when it comes to President Yoon's decision and agreement with President Biden that they may expand the joint military drills between
their two militaries. We do know from experience that this will anger Pyongyang.
I asked him about this and whether he worried this would anger Pyongyang. To which President Yoon simply replied that militaries around the world
need to be in a state of readiness and the U.S. and South Korea and alliance is no different. Becky?
ANDERSON: Paula Hancocks with the interview and on the story for you, Paula, thank you. Still ahead on "Connect the World" a sentence is
announced in a landmark legal case in Ukraine.
The prison time is now facing a Russian soldier who pleaded guilty to war crimes and face coverings remain a point of contention in Afghanistan, a
show of supporting Afghan news Channel TOLO News.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: A Ukrainian court has sentenced Russian soldier to life in prison in Ukraine's first war crimes trials since the start of the Russian
invasion. 21 year old is seen here on the right pleading guilty to killing an unarmed Ukrainian civilian in the early days of the war.
Well, Ukrainian soldiers have fled the Azov steel plant in Mariupol. And they will reportedly face their own trials. The pro-Russian separatist's
leader of Donetsk telling Russian state media, the documents for tribunals are now being prepared.
And there's also talk of a possible prisoner exchange coming from the Russian Foreign Ministry. Well, let's pick this apart somewhat. I want to
bring in Suzanne Malveaux connecting us from Lviv in Western Ukraine.
[11:30:00]
ANDERSON: And as I understand it, you've been speaking to the wife of a soldier who was stuck in that steel plant in Mariupol. What's the family
been telling you?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the family is simply waiting at this point. Natalia Zarytska essentially is trying to get any kind of
glimmer of hope that she can from the statements and they are conflicting statements as you had noted.
She is hoping that President Zelenskyy is warning to the Russians that if in fact they destroy or ruin the lives of those in Azovstal that there will
be no discussions with the Russians.
But of course, she has no idea whether or not out of those about 2000 or so the Russians say that are being held in captivity, whether or not her
husband in fact will be tried and be going through this kind of interrogation process or not.
She is trying to remain strong. She says her husband is strong, and she in the meantime just has to wait.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice over): As Russia pummeled the Mariupol steel plant with overwhelming firepower; Natalia Zarytska could only watch and prays for her
husband Bogdan inside. But Bogdan, a Ukrainian soldier was able to update Natalia almost daily she says chronicling the worsening conditions.
NATALIA ZARYTSKA, WIFE OF AZOVSTAL FIGHTER: He described the situation like the real hell because people had no lamps, no hands and no Madison.
MALVEAUX (voice over): Weeks in photos revealed Bogdan was jaundice and had dropped weight.
ZARYTSKA: He lost weight approximately 20 kilos. But he has a very strong spirit.
MALVEAUX (voice over): He'd seen many of his friends killed and feared he was next. Following his commander's order Thursday Bogdan surrendered
telling Natalia he would lose all ability to communicate.
Now with his fellow soldiers in Russian custody, Natalia can only assume he's at their nearby detention center. Her greatest fear now that he is
being tortured, or worse.
ZARYTSKA: We arrived at each message as a last one.
MALVEAUX (on camera): What is the last message that he typed to you?
ZARYTSKA: I love you. He was worried about his mom. He asked me to let her know that he is alive and to wait for him.
MALVEAUX (voice over): Natalia believes Bogdan will give everything to stay alive, motivated by their shared desire to someday create a family.
ZARYTSKA: And this idea helps me to be strong.
MALVEAUX (voice over): But the pain of not knowing is excruciating. The weight heavy as Russia's attacks carry on.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And Natalia says for her husband, she says he is a man of action and Natalia is taking action herself. She is part of a small group of wives
and mothers of those who are being detained by Russian forces.
And they are working with Turkish government officials, including the Turkish president, to try to bring awareness and perhaps try to push as
some sort of negotiation some sort of prison swap.
But Becky so far, she does not have any updates about this and she has not yet heard from her husband.
ANDERSON: It's absolutely terrifying, isn't it? Suzanne, CNN has spoken exclusively to a Russian who resigned after objecting to President Putin's
invasion of Ukraine, what else do we know about this man?
MALVEAUX: Well, at this point, we know that he is home back in Russia with his family, but his fate is certainly uncertain, actually, because he
doesn't really know what will happen next. But he did tell his story.
And it was anonymously. It was February 22. That's when we saw that huge buildup on the Ukrainian border of the Russian troops. He said at that
point, he was ordered along with his fellow officer's comrades, if you will to turn over their cell phones that are when he lost communication with the
rest of the world.
They were also ordered to paint these Z's on their military vehicles. At the time, he was not aware of what the meaning was that a symbol of the
Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
And then he says two days later, February 24, he was part of that initial convoy that in fact, invaded Ukraine. He said he had no idea of what this
mission was about or the purpose.
And that he was not alone that there were many others with him, who did not understand the point that they had not heard any kind of propaganda or
message that had trickled down to them regarding getting rid of Nazis or de-Nazifying Ukrainians as the propaganda had been.
[11:35:00]
MALVEAUX: And he describes a harrowing experience inside the first couple of days. That yes, the Ukrainian forces, they were under attack, that he
was scared for his life. He thought it was a miracle that they had essentially survived.
And just weeks into the war is when things change for him, he obtained a radio receiver. And as that is when he actually got news from the rest of
the world, saying that, yes, that the economy was collapsing in Russia and he was filled with guilt with remorse that he felt shame even that he was
in the Ukrainian People's country. Becky?
ANDERSON: Suzanne Malveaux, on the ground in Ukraine for you. Suzanne, it's always a pleasure. Thank you. If you want to read the full piece by CNN's
Uliana Pavlova, you can find that@cnn.com.
It is I have to say a fascinating reach. You're watching "Connect the World" with me Becky Anderson live from London today. Ahead documenting
history in Afghanistan, a photo journalist wins a Pulitzer Prize for his images of the fall of Kabul.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANDERSON: A show of solidarity at Afghan news channel TOLOnews. Now on Sunday, a group of men employees wore masks alongside female anchors
that've been ordered by the Taliban to cover their faces.
Those anchors are now wearing face coverings on - and over the weekend the Taliban once again emphasizing those women must follow their order. My
colleague CNN's Christiane Amanpour was reporting from Kabul last week when the Taliban's announcement came down.
And she met with TOLO's anchors about their fears before that announcement was made. Have a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For the past five months Khatera Ahmadi has been anchoring the morning news on TOLO TV, but
this might be the last time she can show her face on air. The morning editorial meeting starts with worried discussion about mandatory masking.
Station Director Khpolwak Sapai says he'd even considered just shutting down and leaving. But then he thought female staffs who want to carry on
anchoring with a mask can, while those who don't will get other jobs behind the scenes.
KHPOLWAK SAPAI, DIRECTOR, TOLONEWS: We will leave the last decision to them. They will make their own decision.
AMANPOUR (voice over): And it's a tough decision for these women who braved the new Taliban regime to stay on the air who've already adjusted their
headscarves to hide their hair, and who now fear is steep slide back to the Middle Ages.
Khatera says she's so stressed; she couldn't even present her program properly.
KHATERA, TOLONEWS ANCHOR: It's not clear even if we appear with the burkha maybe they will say that women's voices are forbidden, they want women to
be removed from the stream. They are afraid of an educated woman.
[11:40:00]
AMANPOUR (voice over): Across town, the Taliban government spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid was attending a meeting with local journalists to mark a
slightly delayed World Press Freedom Day. We stopped him on the way in.
AMANPOUR (on camera): You have said they have to wear a face mask if they're on television. Women why?
AMANPOUR (voice over): It's advisory from the ministry, he says.
AMANPOUR (on camera): But what does that mean? Is it compulsory?
AMANPOUR (voice over): If it is said they should wear it, it will be implemented as it is in our religion too, says Mujahid, it is good if it's
implemented.
AMANPOUR (on camera): Afghan women are afraid that this is the beginning of your efforts to erase them from the workspace. They're afraid that if they
wear the mask, the next thing you will say is their voice cannot be heard publicly. What is your response to that?
AMANPOUR (voice over): Like during COVID, he says masks were mandatory. Women would only be wearing hijab or masks and they will continue their
work. He seems to say that if women wear this they can go to work.
But the dress code edicts like saying female university students must now wear black not colored headscarves is an escalating war of nerves and
everyone fears where this will lead.
Back at TOLOnews, these female anchors are distraught. What should we do cries --Tahmina, we don't know. We were ready to fight to the last to
perform our work, but they don't allow us.
We women have been taken hostage says Hila. Women can't get themselves educated or work like me, who's worked on screen for years and couldn't
leave Afghanistan due to the fear of the Taliban; I can't go on screen again.
Since the Taliban takeover the stations employed even more women than before, because they need a safe space. And as for the actual journalism,
TOLOnews is Afghanistan's leading independent news channel.
But Director Sapai says they'll all quit the day the Taliban pressures them to tailor their coverage or lie to a public that's come to trust the truth
they've been delivering over 20 years.
He saved the station so far, recruiting a whole new staff after most employees fled the Taliban's arrival.
Sapai: From management level, I felt alone. And I was considered, I was only thinking that how to keep the screen alive, not to go dark.
AMANPOUR (voice over): The challenge now is keeping it from going dark. Christiane Amanpour CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: As you can see, the U.S. withdrawal and subsequent fall of Kabul has changed the course of history for Afghanistan. And my next guest was
there to document that. Photojournalist Marcus Yam won the Pulitzer Prize for breaking news photography last week.
The judges said these role and urgent images captured the human costs of the historic change in the country. These images are powerful and
distressing and in some cases, graphic.
Los Angeles Times, Foreign Correspondent and star photographer Marcus Yam joins me now from New York. I have to say and I looked at and consumed your
photographs during the fall of Kabul, they are terrific.
Before we take a look at somewhat of a catalogue of your shots, you've just heard our report there from Christiane and heard the news that men now at
TOLOnews are wearing face masks in support of their female colleagues.
What's your sense of that story and where that takes the country given your experience there recently?
MARCUS YAM, LOS ANGELES TIMES STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER: I mean, even as the country fell, and shortly afterwards, I spoke to many women who saw the
writing on the wall. Many have expressed their fear and anxiety of what was to come.
Despite, at that point, Taliban, the Taliban authorities saying that there will be a new Afghanistan a new version of a rule what they call Taliban
2.0 But many women already knew that, you know, this they would somehow regress to a world where you know, a reality where you know, the only
spoken off by their mothers.
And you know, and in that sense I feel like well it's not, I don't feel anything that says I mean I'm not you know, but I have always just listened
to people tell me and kind of tell me about their anxieties.
[11:45:00]
YAM: And a lot of them have some flood, some, you know, are brave enough to stay behind and resist. So--
ANDERSON: Yes, yes, it's, it's a sad, very, very sad state of affairs. Your work is remarkable, they say all news is history and your work here has
catalog those fateful days in Kabul.
When you were on the ground and before we took take a look at the shots just very briefly did it feel like something seismic was happening around
you?
YAM: It definitely did feel like something seismic was happening. I mean, there's a confluence of so many things happening at the same time, it was,
you know, is a historic event on both for both countries, Afghanistan and the United States.
And it was it felt like walking into the unknown. And at the same time, it felt like, you know, the ground shifting for everyday Afghans their lives
are transformed overnight, you know and they had no say in this.
ANDERSON: Let me pull up some of the images that you took. I mean, I have to warn our viewers. The first is quite graphic; it depicts two journalists
and their wounds from Taliban torture. Just tell me their stories and why this happened to them?
YAM: These two journalists, were journalists with the newspaper at the - and they were doing their jobs. They were videographers for the newspaper.
And they were out filming a protest in support a rally in support of women's rights outside a police station, and they were immediately
apprehended.
And then, you know, taken into the police station and beaten up, they were lucky enough they had handed off their cameras, to you know, friends and
supporters who just rushed the cameras and footage out there.
But, you know, they weren't so lucky. I mean, they described to me, you know, how, you know, the kinds of people that were torturing them. And what
they will say to them, at some point, you know a Taliban fighter, mocked one of them and said, you know, are you filming me now, you know, after
beating them up, and it was just horrendous.
And when I met them, they were in so much pain; they couldn't even sit down probably properly. And, and when I described to them what we wanted to do,
they were so courageous, they agreed to just take off their clothes and, you know, drop their pants and turn around.
And you know, stoically just, you know, display their wounds, like, you know, it looks as though like, it was freshly painted on, you know, like,
map, you know, like, like maps.
ANDERSON: I've got to warn our viewers, this next photo is graphic, and it's raw, it's shows a child crying is behind him, a man carries a blooded
child. And just the third image I've got here is of a crowd of women and children who really are panicked at what is happening around them.
Just walk me through these crowds, these crushing crowds and the mayhem that you must have experienced.
YAM: This, in the early days, I guess this photo was taken the day after the infamous moment where the U.S. transport airplane took off with Afghans
clambering onto it.
And I had made my way up to the airport. And there was the Taliban were using gunfire as crowd control, you know, pretty - without any trigger
discipline, I would say.
And I was standing in a crowd of tens of thousands, thousands of people just milling around, and I was just standing there trying to interview
people. At some point I hear, you know, a rattle of gunfire go off all at once, you know, and I see across the street, you know, this woman and this,
you know, being dragged across the street with a guy a gentleman carrying this bloodied baby towards me.
And I just, you know, run towards them to intercept them and try to make this all happen very quickly. There was a child who looked me in the eye
and just screamed and really worked, you know, didn't know what to make sensitive, how to be sensitive.
ANDERSON: It is remarkable, isn't it? I mean, I've got another photo here, which captures that sense of desperation most poignantly, I think those
left behind looking up at the sky losing hope.
And let's just bring that image up. You had a roommate that we know quite well at CNN. Also noted is quite extraordinary. Her reporting and that is,
of course, Clarissa ward.
How did you both feel getting back to your accommodation after witnessing those scenes day-in, day-out?
[11:50:00]
YAM: I would say, when I got back after photographing that airport scene with a child shrieking and a bloody baby and injured woman that was carried
away in a --.
I sat there for a while, and I, I said that I thought about what I just saw.
I mean, it took me a while to press the send button. You know, and, and it took a while to process what I just seen like it was, it hit me very, very
hard. That everything that the Afghans were afraid of is now coming into reality.
I mean, it's one thing to watch it on a screen on the news. It's another to actually experience it firsthand. And, you know, watch this indiscriminate
violence take over their lives.
ANDERSON: Marcus, your imagery is remarkable. We applaud you for the prize, I know that you will applaud those Afghans who have survived and continue
to survive in a country which is so broken, at present.
It's a pleasure having you on, thank you very much indeed for joining us. We are taking a very short break, back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Well, it wasn't decided until the final minute's last game of the season, but that is why they call it the beautiful game. Reigning champions
Manchester City captured the English Premier League title again, thanks to a dramatic comeback.
It is the club's fourth EPL championship in five years and their eighth top flight title in team history. It was looking like Liverpool would claim
that title after Man City trailed Aston Villa to nil.
Relatively late in the game but city school three goals in quick succession, giving them the title and sending the home fans into a frenzy.
Alex Thomas from CNN World Sport is joining me now from Manchester in England.
This was ultimately the way I think this season should have gone down. And what a cliffhanger and what an end to the season and what an atmosphere
there must be in Manchester certainly one half of Manchester today, Alex.
ALEX THOMAS, CNN WORLD SPORT: Yes, the sky blue half getting ready for a party here, Becky, there's no doubt about that. In the last few minutes the
gates open a bit further up Deansgate, one of the main streets here in the center of Manchester.
And as you can see the fans let in waving city flags memorabilia replica kits. I'm actually going to step out a shot just to show you what's going
on here because the parade issued a start any moment.
It will take place starting from Exchange were less than a mile away from where we are here, ending up at the stage you can see in the background
there. With the current slogan for the champions again, the City fans getting used to winning Premier League titles.
Now Becky, ever since the new owners arrived at the club back in 2008, 14 major trophies in the space of his many years. And as you say a fourth
premier league title in five years, the - under the new owners the eighth time they've been English champions in their long history stretching back
more than 100 years.
But this is an unprecedented collapse of silverware for the team and a city that used to be ruled by the reign of Manchester United, which we can't see
because the champions again signed, but old - is closer than the Etihad Stadium.
But these days it's the sky blue bands used for celebrating success rather than the united supporters.
[11:55:00]
ANDERSON: Just taking up the atmosphere with you there, as we said, it went right down to the wire Liverpool fans, of course, you've got to feel sorry
for them to a certain extent, Alex, haven't you really?
Because they thought not only were they going to clinch the EPL, but of course they're still in Champions League, a tournament Man City would have
loved to have won this season. But I guess EPL league title winners is enough.
THOMAS: Yes. A historic quadruple of trophies was on the cards for Liverpool. And the amount of points they have won in recent seasons would
have won Premier League titles in many of the previous years.
Their rivalry of city is really driving - football forward. But as I said, it's all about Manchester City today and their celebrations.
ANDRESON: Isn't it just lovely. Enjoy it, Alex Thomas on the ground there on the blue side, light blue side of Manchester. Thank you for joining us.
We will see you same time, same place tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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