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U.N. Chief: There's now a "Beacon of Hope" on Black Sea; Ukraine: Russian Drones Use Technology from U.S., Europe; Aid to Rebel-Held Areas Extended but Limited to Six Months; IRC: Three Million in East Africa could die without Aid; Ukraine and Russia Sign Grain Export Deal; Tunisian Mother Looks for Son Lost on Deadly Migration Route. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired July 22, 2022 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST, CONNECT THE WORLD: This hour a beacon of light in the Black Sea. Millions of tons of grains that have been held up in Ukraine
could finally be released a big step in easing what is a global food crisis.
Welcome back! Today major progress on moving tons of grain out of Ukraine and possibly averting catastrophe as a short time ago, Ukraine's
Infrastructure Minister signed an agreement with Russia to open three ports including Odessa.
The exports will be shipped through safe corridors on the Black Sea. The United Nations in Turkey helped broker that deal, the UN Secretary General
said the welfare of humanity was the driving force behind the talks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONIO GUTERRES, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY- GENERAL: Today, there is a beacon on the Black Sea, a beacon of hope, a beacon of possibility, a
beacon of relief in a world that needs it more than ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Millions of tons of grain have been stuck in Ukraine since Russia's invasion back in February. And given Ukraine's role as a global
supplier the blockage has driven up food prices worldwide and raises the specter of famine in some parts of the world.
Ukrainian officials stressed the agreement was signed with Turkey and the United Nations not with Moscow. Well our Nic Robertson covering the story
from the scene, Nada Bashir is in Istanbul, where the deal was made official and where a Joint Coordination Center is being set up. What do we
know on the detail at this point? Let's start with you Nada.
NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER: Well look Becky; we are still learning more details about this deal as it comes in. We did hear from a senior UN
official speaking this morning outlining a few of the terms of the agreement of the framework that is to be established. But we also waiting
for that final confirmation of what that deal will entail.
Now, we do understand, as you mentioned, that is that they Joint Coordination Center is going to be established here in Istanbul. And the
Turkish government and military officials will be overseeing that center alongside representatives from Ukraine, from Russia and also from the
Now those that Joint Coordination Center, those representatives will be overseeing what is to be a safe corridor of passage for vessels looking to
travel from those ports in Ukraine, through the Black Sea through the Bosporus in order to carry out those grain exports.
And what is key here of course, is that along those ports in the Black Sea, there are some mines there, they have said that demining the entire area
would have taken months it was a non-starter. So what they are now looking at doing is with the aid of Ukrainian officials, establishing a safe
corridor that will be overseen by that Joint Coordination Center and also by aerial support as well in order to allow these vessels to pass through.
And that was a crucial part of the agreement as we understand. They'll also, of course, be looking at inspecting those vessels. Turkey set to play
a significant role in those inspections establishing a team, including at once again, representatives from all parties involved in this agreement in
order to take a look at those vessels purportedly from a port in Turkey.
Although it's still to be confirmed which ports they will take place at? In order to ensure that these vessels are indeed carrying grain and
agricultural goods those goods are as outlined in the agreement as opposed to what Russia has expressed concerns of weapons.
So that will be a key responsibility for the Turkish government and of course, for the officials that will be selected by the Ukrainian
government, the Russian Federation, also the United Nations, but of course, this is a breakthrough deal.
This is significant and will have a major impact on alleviating the risks posed by the food security crisis. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan speaking
earlier, alongside Antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General statement Turkey takes great pride in this agreement.
And having been able to mediate this agreement, they say that this has established an environment of peace, at least in order to allow for further
talks to take place. And that is the hope here really by the Turkish government.
We've seen previous attempts by Turkey in order to start trying to negotiate bring Russia and Ukraine to the negotiating table. Those didn't
have successful results, but appears now that that Ukraine and Russia have been able to come to some sort of agreement at least focused specifically
on the export of grain and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is set to continue those efforts to try and bring Russia and Ukraine to the
negotiating table in coming weeks and months.
But at this stage, it is a breakthrough deal. And it is of course, a major diplomatic win for the Turkish President who has, for some time now been
seen as somewhat of an outlier. He hasn't laid his own independent sanctions against Russia. Although he has openly condemned the war on
Ukraine, he has supported the Ukrainian armed forces by transporting military armament to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
BASHIR: But of course, he has maintained that channel of dialogue and negotiation that has proven to be key, when it comes to this grain
ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. A beacon of light a beacon of hope, Nic is how Antonio Guterres described this in the Black Sea. There's no doubt that
this deal could help avert a catastrophic global food crisis. And on the diplomatic front Nada just pointing out how important the Turkish role has
been in all of this?
Let's not underplay the significance of what we have witnessed today. Representatives from Ukraine and Russia, in the same room this is five
months into what has been a grinding war.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Absolutely, and the fact that there was a handshake between them after the signing was
significant that they sat at opposite ends of the table rather than sort of along the table with the Turkish President and the UN Secretary General,
which seemed to sort of hint at, you know, a certain level of distrust or animosity.
And behind this really important diplomatic deal and behind that handshake, there remains that level of distrust, you know, as Nada was explaining
there. The Russians want the inspection of cargoes coming to and from Ukraine, because they fear that Ukraine will get weapons supply is going in
We've heard from President Zelenskyy's Advisor here in Kyiv saying, if there is any military transgression by Russia, there will be a response
from Ukraine. And I think the notion as well of the sea lanes not being cleared of mines a lengthy process for sure.
But the fact that those mines remain, and there's not some parallel process to do that, to make this easier going forward, is really indicative of the
lack of trust that exists. So this is really a thin layer of agreement with that's not bounded by some really hard and fast language, there is no for
example, no hard and fast ceasefire around the port. So that's something you know, of a concern for the Ukrainian side.
How it plays out of course, will be hugely important because if the initial phases go, well, then this is going to allow the shipping companies that
want to bring ships in because the initial ships that are going to come out from Ukraine are ones that have been trapped there since the war began?
But to get more ships back in, there's going to have to be insurance on those vessels. And of course, if the early days of these early weeks go
well, then it will be easier for global shipping companies to find insurance to send ships and to bring out those precious cargoes.
ANDERSON: Meantime Nic, you have been looking at the Ukrainian ability to continue this fight, both on the ground and in the air?
ROBERTSON: Yes, we've heard from a U.S. military official today saying that so far, using this very new sophisticated, highly accurate, longer range
high mars artillery systems that Ukraine has struck over hundred strategic Russian targets.
But this is only part of the picture of the war. Ukraine has been asking for more and more weapons and systems, artillery systems like this, but
there's another part of that battle where they need international support.
And that is the drones that the Russians are using to oversee where Ukrainian troop positions are and use those drones that target them.
Ukrainians are finding out those drones have got parts in them made by their allies.
ROBERTSON (voice over): Away from the front lines, technical Intel Officer Maxime, not his real name, strips down a captured Russian all antennas
surveillance drone. We are the first journalists they are showing how Russia is using Western Tech to kill Ukrainian troops?
ROBERTSON (on camera): This circuit board that can pinpoint cell phones is even maybe more dangerous than the camera.
ROBERTSON (voice over): The cell phone tracker he says made in the USA. The engine made in Japan and the thermal imager module on the camera he claims
was made in France after Russia invaded.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Drones like this one are a terror on the battlefield and are revolutionizing the way war is being fought. But the battle over
control of components inside of them is almost as important as the supply of new rockets and artillery. At the front lines Ukrainian soldiers fear
Russian drones and celebrate and share what they call successful hits.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Kyiv's military intelligence, say the drone's powerful cameras with thermal and infrared imaging and cell phone tracking
are making it easier for Russia to kill Ukrainian soldiers.
SAMUEL CRANNY-EVANS, RUSI RESEARCH ANALYST: From a UAV or drone identifying a Ukrainian target it can be three to four minutes for the Russians to
ROBERTSON (on camera): So French lens Japanese engine U.S. made GSM parts. What are the country's components go in here?
ROBERTSON (voice over): The list Maxime says is long includes Austria, Germany, Taiwan, and the Netherlands. His job follow every serial number,
find out who made it until allies to figure out how to stop Russia's drone techs, getting their hands on it. But stopping supply of these often
commercial components won't be easy. Russia may have huge stockpiles and has a long history, evading controls.
CRANNY-EVANS: The FBI has been tracking down Russian supply networks since 2014 and trying to close them down. So if they can, they will continue
trying to sidestep that and it is a real problem because often these compared to them bought by legitimate companies.
ANDERSON: There is a little later this hour. Thank you, Nic! I'll be talking to one of the Chief Architects of that big green agreement that we
have reported on just in the last hour. UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres joins me live from Istanbul to join us for that.
Well, as relief on two fronts this week, this newly signed grain deal and Russia's resumption on Thursday of natural gas deliveries into Europe via
the Nord Stream I Pipeline that had been shut down for 10 days for routine maintenance. The pipeline has been operating at reduced capacity during the
ongoing conflict in Ukraine, but there have been fears it wouldn't be restarted at all.
Well, my next guest is an Adviser to Gazprom CEO. He's also advised the Russian government on its energy strategy and he is a Professor of
International Energy Economy at the Diplomatic Academy of Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs Andrey Konoplyanik joins me now live via Skype from the
Upper Volga region of Russia.
Good to have you, sir! Mr. Putin warned that Gazprom would send only half of the volume intended and that's a quote through the Nord Stream Pipeline,
what's the Kremlin strategy here sir?
ANDREY KONOPLYANIK, ENERGY ECONOMIST: OK, nice to see you, Becky. I will just like to make some corrections. I am adviser not to the CEO of Gazprom,
but to the Director General of Gazprom Expert, which is an affiliated company of Gazprom and major, equity political.
Thank you for the question because there is a lot of speculations about what the strategy of my country. The strategy of my country is very simple.
We have huge energy resources, not only gas, but oil and coal.
And our national interest is the sovereign states to monetize these natural resources in a best effective way. And since gas is traded with Europe
through the pipelines and we have developed through the past 50 years a common cross border very capital intensive e-mobile gas infrastructure.
We are interested that this infrastructure is effectively working. And that does mean we would like to have European market as a predictable one. So we
have the long term stability, and prediction of our supply. So we can develop our upstream field, because we cannot develop any upstream field
until and unless the guess is to be sold.
Because you know, of course, that all the money that I needed, they are raised in the form of finance, and so you need to pay back it. So we need
to have the long term reliable, stable supplies with the predictable prices not too high.
Because if the prices are high, the consumers would like to deviate from this energy to alternatives and not so low and in this field, we are
competing with U.S. LNG, first of all, and if the competition is fair, we're waiting, because our costs are the lowest. And what we see today
through the sanctions resume is their unfriendly, unfair competition.
ANDERSON: Right, that's sanctions regime is there for a reason, sir, because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Gazprom could pump more gas
without the turbine that has been maintained in Canada. There are plenty of other ways that it could send more gas through other pipelines like the
Yamal Pipeline. So why isn't doing that?
KONOPLYANIK: OK, there were two questions in your question, one statement, and then the question. Regarding statement, you referred to the special
military operation started on the 24th.
ANDERSON: No I referred to Russia's invasion of Ukraine sir with respect?
KONOPLYANIK: No, I understand what you're saying. We have different terminology. So I do understand that everything has started as in the
sanctions regime with the Gaza, which was signed on the 2nd August of 2017, by United States.
And it's very clearly stated there in this Gaza law, that in order to support energy security of Ukraine, their major political aim of United
States is to expand it expert to create additional employment in United States to create additional capacities, so to protect its own producers.
That's a fair point.
But to reach this fair point, well, unfortunately, unfair competition is taking place and why I can see the story with the Siemens Turbine as one of
the elements in the chains where my country is prevented to supply all its gas, it's ready to supply to Europe.
Because you correctly mentioned that we have come to the 40 percent of utilization of capacity of Nord Stream I after this maintenance. We have in
usage only two turbines and six, because others turbines, four turbines - they are preparing for the maintenance.
You may be known that since the Nord Stream I, is the offshore pipeline, which lengthens 1200 kilometers, in order to provide the adequate pressure
onshore in Germany. We need to have the pressure in the part over around 210 bars. That does mean there let me say pressure on the turbines--
ANDERSON: OK, all right. I'm going to move us on because this isn't a show, which specializes in the sort of machinations of energy provision. And I
know some of our viewers might get a little confused as to that. I hear what you've said Germany's Vice Chancellor and Energy Minister says that
they certainly cannot rely on commitments from Gazprom. And will Russia keep Europe guessing over gas at this point?
European Commissioner, President Ursula Von Der Leyen recently said that Russia is blackmailing us, and I quote her here, Russia is using energy as
a weapon is it?
KONOPLYANIK: I strongly disagree with this statement. You're referring to the political leadership of Germany to - unfortunately, unfortunately, I
disagree with their whole philosophy.
Because national interest of my country is not to blackmail anyone, because we are strongly linked with Europe, and only in the mood of mutual
ANDERSON: So let me ask you this--
KONOPLYANIK: We can--
ANDERSON: Well, let me ask you this will Russia continue to pump gas through the Nord Stream I Pipeline and others they are not weaponized? Is
that what you are saying? You're convinced that Russia is not weaponizing gas?
KONOPLYANIK: Right. We have not been weaponizing our energy. That's the false statement. I strongly disagree with this. Russia is interested and
would be supplying gas but you need to understand that we have few pipelines in operation that supply in Europe.
One is Nord Stream I, which is dependent on the maintenance which is dependent on Siemens and Canada. By the way, Canada has expanded its
sanctions when the turbine was already in Canada at the plant. Second, we have this North Stream II which is available to supply gas to Europe and
solve all the problems.
ANDERSON: But it is not happening sir? Point is, it's not happening is it? Because that's a decision that's been taken I've got to take a break. It's
good to have you on we'll have you back. I've got to move it on today because we've got a lot of other news but thank you very much indeed for
Coming up a desperate plea for help in Syria, why the UN can ensure relief in the northern part of the country for the next six months that story is
an important one and it is coming up.
ANDERSON: While much of the world's attention may be focused on the war in Ukraine, Syria is still in the throes of a civil war after more than a
decade. People there still in dire need of help as they have been for more than a decade.
Much of that helps rebel held areas comes via the Bab Al Hawa crossing between Syria and Turkey near the Syrian city of Idlib.
The UN just voted to keep humanitarian aid flowing through Bab Al Hawa for the next six months. Well, the U.S. and other countries were hoping that
that extension will be for another year.
But Russia which has veto power demanded just six months. Well earlier this week, the presidents of Russia and Turkey met in Tehran discussing
humanitarian aid in Syria and possibly extending turkey's zone of control in northwest Syria. Both countries work and continue to be huge players in
My next guest says he is relieved that the vote to renew the resolutions passed. But he's not too happy about the timeline. He writes, and I quote,
"There is currently no viable alternative to cross border assistance to meet the growing needs across Syria".
Despite recent progress on cross line assistance, the same will be said in six months' time. And so there really can be no justification for having
cut the timeline short.
Former UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband joining us now live, he's the Head of the International Rescue Committee. You went on to say that council
members should be guided by humanitarian imperatives rather than politics. What did you mean by that? David, what are you suggesting?
DAVID MILIBAND, PRESIDENT & CEO, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE: Thanks very much, Becky. I was making the point that the evidence from the ground
from NGOs, from United Nations agencies, from people themselves is of extreme need in the northwest of Syria, where about three and a half
million people live, maybe 4 million.
And in the northeast of Syria, where about 3 million people live, many of them have been pushed into those parts of Syria as a result of the war.
They're internally displaced. And access to humanitarian aid for those people is an international legal right.
And our argument for not just sustaining the crossing point from Iraq, from turkey into Syria, but extending or reopening the crossing point from Iraq
into Syria was that humanitarian need demands immediate and direct access for humanitarian agencies to those people.
Politics is different, politics says will play one part of the world against off against the other. There's a standoff in Ukraine, let's
transfer that into a tug of war inside Syria. Syria itself has its geo and regional politics.
And my point was that in a situation where the legalities are so clear, and the evidence is so clear, there's absolutely no excuse for casting a cloud
over the future of humanitarian aid that these people literally depend on food, medical supplies and the rest of it.
ANDERSON: Right. Russia has said the aid operation is outdated and it violates serious sovereignty and territorial integrity deliver point. Is
there a better alternative here?
MILIBAND: No, I mean, this isn't a fact based point. It's not an evidence based point. In the report of the secretary general to the security
council, he explained that there had been five crossings of about 14 lorries trucks each across the conflict lines within Syria.
MILIBAND: That contrasts with about 50,000 trucks that have crossed cross border in the 10 years of the war. So those five agreed cross line aid
supplies are nowhere near sufficient for the people who are dependent on them.
And the truth is that the Syrian government and its opponents inside Syria have not been able to come to any agreement about the passage of UN or
other aid across conflict lines within the country.
And that's why cross border aid far from being a violation of sovereignty is actually a way of upholding the individual rights that are enshrined in
the UN charter.
ANDERSON: China, joining Russia in its positioning, and it's blamed the United States for some of serious plight, have a listen to what the foreign
minister had to say recently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WANG WENBIN, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON: The U.S. has been preaching that it follows the highest standard of human rights and the rule
of law. But their action in Syria has exposed its disqualification and maintaining human rights and the rule of law.
The U.S. should respect serious sovereignty and territorial integrity, respond to the Syrian people's appeal, immediately lift unilateral
sanctions on Syria, stop plundering Syria's natural resources and compensate Syrian people with concrete actions for the harm it has done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Your thoughts on the foreign ministry spokesman?
ANDERSON: Just your thoughts, your thoughts on what you just heard there from the Chinese foreign ministry spokesman?
MILIBAND: Yes, I mean, obviously, I'm speaking to this as someone who's running an independent, neutral and impartial humanitarian agency. What I
would say to the foreign minister and his spokespeople is that the systems inside Syria for supporting basically a quarter of its population, a third
of its population are not working, the conflict is continuing.
And that is why cross border aid, far from being the violation of sovereignty that he claims is, in fact, an essential way of upholding
individual rights that are within the UN charter. My brief is not to defend one country or another, it's to speak for the people who are on the
receiving end of the conflict.
And we've seen that with our own staff who've been killed in the course of the conflict and civilians who we've been treating the brutality of this
war, marked it out as a poster child of the age of impunity that I've talked about, on your show before.
And obviously, we're living at a time of global geopolitical standoff, not just tension of gridlock in the institutions of war in Europe, and have a
standoff between the U.S. and china.
And my argument, at both the Chinese Administration and the U.S. Administration and to any other administration, is that they have a duty
under the UN charter to uphold the rights of individuals not just to uphold their own national interest.
And that's something that has to be cauterized from the wider geopolitical tension that is such a marked feature of the modern world. We've had a sub-
tiny signal of hope today, with the issue that you cover the agreement about the grain supplies to come out of Odessa in the Ukraine that should
have happened a month ago.
But the fact that 20 million tons of grain will be coming out of Ukraine is desperately needed for the people that the international rescue committee
is serving in Somalia, Ethiopia, and Kenya, which is the epicenter of a growing famine crisis. That's a victim of geopolitical tension too.
ANDERSON: Yes, very good point. The leaders of Russia and Turkey met in Iran earlier this week, as you know, to discuss serious conflict. Do you
worry that Ankara's position on Ukraine and what that brings with it and there's sort of multiple layers there, but that it risks further
destabilization of Russia finally, of Syria, sorry.
MILIBAND: What I worry about is that the multilateral effort, the UN led political effort around Syria is being marginalized. And what we've seen in
the case of the grain supplies that I just mentioned, and that you've covered is that the UN is the ultimate legitimate authority for forging
compromise to me humanitarian need. What I worry about in the Syria case is that 11 years into the war, the peace, the political process, led by the UN
is in danger of being marginalized.
That's never going to be a recipe for sustained stability, nor hope for the people inside Syria or the 6 million refugees who've been driven into other
ANDERSON: It's always good to have you. Your insight and analysis is so important a timeline. Yes, David thank you very much indeed.
MILIBAND: Thank you.
ANDERSON: His dad is the man who helped broker that deal to put Ukrainian grain back into the food supply chain. This is a story that should help
avert a global food crisis not least in East Africa as David has just been pointing out. I'll be talking live to the UN Secretary General Antonio
Guterres up next.
ANDERSON: Welcome back. You're watching "Connect the World". I'm Becky Anderson. It is just after half past four in London. I want to get you more
on our top story now.
And it's an important one, unblocking Ukrainian grain in a deal that could help food supply chains already battered by a pandemic. In the last hour
Moscow and Kyiv signing a grain export agreement mediated by Turkey and the United Nations it was quite quiet.
But it was a momentous act designed to move millions of tons of grain Ukrainian grain trapped in the country's black sea ports by Russia's
invasion. This corridor should be hugely significant in addressing the global food shortage that we are seeing today.
I'm delighted to say the UN Secretary General, one of the architects of this deal. Antonio Guterres joins me live from Istanbul. Sir, it's good to
have you congratulations on getting this across the line. How long before the shipments begin sir?
GUTERRES: I hope that very soon in my discussion with our Ukrainian friends harbors will be ready, two of the harbors will be ready in a few days and
we hope that if ships can go in, we will be able maximum two weeks to start exporting.
But these things are always relatively complex, that does not forget that there will not be a demining. So there will be safe corridors managed by
the Ukrainian authorities conducting the ships to the harbors.
And when they enter or when they leave, they will then enter into a corridor whose safety and security is guaranteed by all the parties.
ANDERSON: Yes, these ships carrying the grain will have to navigate minefields, which could prove to be difficult and highly dangerous. Can we
just get a bit more detail on how you plan to implement this deal?
GUTERRES: Well, the mines were to put by the Ukrainian so they know where the mines are. And the idea is that it is possible to have safe passages
that allow ships to go without any risk. But the agreement also establishes that in case the analysis that will now be made will detect that some
improvements need to be made.
GUTERRES: There is an agreement for another country to be involved in equip the mining operation, wherever necessary. But we hope it won't be necessary
in those safe passages in Ukrainian waters.
Let's not forget that in these Ukrainian waters, the ships will be conducted by Ukrainian pilots and supported by the Ukrainian coast guard.
ANDERSON: Are you confident this deal will stick particularly from the Russian side? Do you trust them?
GUTERRES: Well, I mean, nobody believed when I said three months ago, that I had made this proposal to President Putin and to President Zelenskyy and
that we were starting to work on it. Everybody was saying this was not possible.
It has happened. So I believe it is in the mutual interest of the parties, because this will represent not only an important solution for Ukraine that
has all the silos full and the new offers being made. So it's vital to export Ukraine grants. But we are working also as it is known with U.S and
with EU, the U.S. has already issued a statement in relation to this.
There are no sanctions on food and fertilizers. And so Russian food and fertilizers will also be able to be in access to the world markets and
these two combined operations will mean huge injection that I believe will bring prices down, will stabilize the markets.
And will allow developing countries that are in an extremely difficult situation and vulnerable populations where famine is growing that will
allow this to stop that was our objective, our motivation.
What has guided us during these three months, they were very difficult, many obstacles. But I have to say, I mean, today I feel like leaving
probably the most important day of my tenure of secretary general.
ANDERSON: Is there a mechanism in place to hold parties accountable? Should they renege on this deal, sir?
GUTERRES: There is a joint coordination committee, that joint coordination committee as representatives of the UN, Turkey, Russia and Ukraine; all
movements will be coordinated by this committee.
All ships that will be in this movement will be resisted and will be followed through remote mechanisms that exist in order to make sure that we
all know at any moment where any boat any ship is.
And there is a clear commitment of the parties that not only no attacks will be made on any of these ships, but that the control will be remote,
not web warships in the proximity.
So I strongly believe that we have now a clear mechanism to if there is anything wrong if there is an infraction, to make accountability, very easy
ANDERSON: Last month, you marked the grim milestone of 100 days of war to renew a call for an immediate end to this violence more than a month on
with no end in sight. Do you accept the criticism of the UN's failure to hold Moscow's aggression?
GUTERRES: Well, I don't think it is a failure of the secretariat of the UN. If there is a failure is in the Security Council where of course the
Russian veto doesn't allow for any decision to stop the war, and to make sure that the UN charter and international law respected.
But I think the UN has been doing an extraordinary work from the humanitarian point of view. And we have already two interventions in which
our mediation the second one, together with Turkey.
The first was the release in safety and security of the civilians from Azovstal that four months was considered impossible until we got involved
and now disagreement. So I believe the UN is doing a lot.
But one thing is clear. We are far from a peace agreement and I have some mixed feelings. On one hand, I must say I'm happy because we got what we
wanted. But at the same time I'm very unhappy to see that the war is raging that people are being killed that Ukraine people are suffering.
And obviously I can only hope that this beacon of the black sea best will allow inspiring people to move into a road to peace, a road to peace,
always in respect of international law.
ANDERSON: And you have described today's agreement as a beacon of light, a beacon of hope in the black sea. And the symbolism of seeing the Russians
and the Ukrainians at the same table certainly is one that ought to provide some optimism in what is such a grim situation.
Russia's permanent membership of the UN Security Council does effectively render that body ineffective at present, that must be a concern to you,
GUTERRES: Well, my message is very clear. Let us all be inspired by what was achieved, let's be cautioned that we are very far from a situation in
which a true peace process is possible. But let's do everything we can to create the conditions for it to happen. But I repeat to happen in respect
for the UN charter and international law.
ANDERSON: Your work is tireless, sir, you deserve congratulations for the work that was done behind the scenes to broker help broker the deal today.
And you explained as did the Turkish president, that this is months in the making.
It is really good news that we see this deal announced today. Congratulations on that. But as you rightly point out, we need to see the
end to this war.
GUTERRES: If I may? If I may, there is one thing I'd like to say, in this world in which everybody now is basically talking to the media before
trying to do anything. I think this has demonstrated that there is still a role for discreet diplomacy in the world.
There is still a role for people seeking the solution of the problems and not seeking the protagonist in the media that lasts for a few hours, but
has no impact on the grounds or on the sea.
ANDERSON: Make a very good point. Thank you very much indeed for joining us, taking a very short break, back after this.
ANDERSON: Well, as Russia's war on Ukraine rages on. We've seen countries across Europe welcoming Ukrainian refugees with open arms. A lot of aid
groups though saying the focus on Ukraine means that other crises are frankly being ignored.
One thing that has fallen off the radar is the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean since 2021. There has been a major uptick in the number of
people putting their lives at risk trying to get to a better life David McKenzie with this exclusive report.
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): --faded fishing boats Samia Jabloun searches. Where is that boat, she asks, done that take it back to
see? Samia wears fatty's image on her shirt. She still sees her son in her dreams.
SAMIA JABLOUN: This boat that takes my son, I hate this boat, I hate it because they take my son.
MCKENZIE (voice over): In this video, you can see Italy in the distance. It is Samia's last image of - before he vanished. In Europe, millions of
Ukrainians are given shelter from the war.
But we are in Tunisia, tracking what the UN and Tunisian officials called the biggest surge of illegal migrants in years. From across the African
continent, migrants make the desperate journey across the Mediterranean through a loose network of dangerous criminal gangs.
MCKENZIE (on camera): So our producers just go on to speak to the smuggling Kingpin who works on trying to get people out of Tunisia into Europe, just
seeing if he's comfortable to talk in this neighborhood.
MCKENZIE (voice over): But this is his zone. These are his people. He says his gang pulls up to 20,000 U.S. dollars for a boat of migrants. That's up
to $2,000 each live or die. There are no guarantees at sea, he says because we could take you but the authorities could catch you and they see die.
That death is your destiny.
A destiny like this crammed into vessels leaving at night. This passage is the planet's deadliest known migration routes says the United Nations, more
than 24,000 have gone missing just since 2014. But still they go.
Next time I'm taking my wife and daughters, says the smuggler.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though you know some people don't make it.
MCKENZIE (voice over): Yes, there'll be in god's hands whatever god wants for us. Those prayers often go unanswered. These migrant boats piled up by
the coast guard harbor.
MCKENZIE (on camera): A small boat like this could fit 10 people on it to go to Italy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, imagine it's that we have 10 people on board of this small boat for a trip of 120 miles.
MCKENZIE (on camera): 120 miles?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 120 miles. For that sometimes, the operation of looking for immigrants become operation of assistance and recuperation of dead
MCKENZIE (voice over): Even with the latest gear funded by the European union and U.S. Colonel - says the coast guard can't possibly trace
thousands of migrants trying to leave. When they catch them he says they often say they will try again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No matter how well you are trained and equipped if you do not cure the economic and social causes of illegal migration, then it
will continue for Tunisians and for other Africans.
MCKENZIE (on camera): So we've made this group of Ivorian that come into this place near the sea. Not only is it dangerous, this perilous journey to
Europe, but they are afraid while they're here, on Tunisian shores.
MCKENZIE (voice over): They live a marginal existence, working for years just to save enough money to pay the smugglers, often as laborers and
maids. Here in Tunisia, it's bad, we live illegally says Deborah wants to take a four month old daughter on a smuggler's boat.
When we get to Europe, we will be illegal too but the conditions are better. We have no liberty here.
MCKENZIE (on camera): Are you afraid of this journey?
MCKENZIE (voice over): Often, I'm afraid, but sometimes I'm not. Because when I see the problems that I'm going through, she says, when I see our
future and my dreams, my fears vanish. She says Ukrainians are welcome because they are European.
MCKENZIE (on camera): The millions of Ukrainians are being led by the European Union. Why aren't they letting more Africans into the European
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Political systems still look at humans based on their color, gender, religion and ethnicity and don't look at them as people who
are entitled to the same rights at the same level.
JABLOUN: --is the photo of my son.
MCKENZIE (voice over): Surrounded by her son's image, Samia says at least one migrant on the smuggling boat made it to Italy. They told her fatty
swam too, then like thousands before him, he vanished.
The millions of Ukrainians are being led by the European Union. But do you still have hope he is alive?
JABLOUN: Yes. Yes, yes. I suffer every day, I suffer. When I look his photos, I hope that god help him.
ANDERSON: David McKenzie joining us now, David?
MCKENZIE: You can see the real total, the way that Samia was so upset, and her face and her photos, she's just obsessed as you can understand with
trying to find her missing son.
We've met other mothers and sisters who have the same predicament thousands of young men who've left Tunisia and gone to Europe and many of them go
missing, many of them drowned.
And then a wave of other Africans from across the continent like Deborah that we spoke to, and those other men trying to get across, it really begs
the question. And it's a morally complicated one and a complicated one, just in its essence is who is welcome and who is not, and what kind of
desperate travel and years of working and possibly dying people go through to get to Europe.
Just in a few days, there will be a referendum in Tunisia, where the president will try and consolidate his power further, and people say that
that could lead to even more instability and more waves of migration hitting north, Becky.
ANDERSON: David McKenzie on the story, David, thank you, taking a short break back after this.
ANDERSON: Well, just before the break, we brought you David McKenzie's powerful exclusive story on the desperate and dangerous journey that
migrants take to seek a better life.
And in tonight's parting shots, I want to highlight the work of a former member of this very team on that subject. Before her award winning writing
career, she was an intern on this show, have a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Hi, sister, Sally, we need your help. We're under bad condition in Libya prison. If you have time, I will tell you the
SALLY HAYDEN, ORWELL PRIZE WINNER 2022: The genesis of the book was a Facebook message that I got actually out of nowhere in august 2018. It came
from a man who had been locked up in a detention center with around 500 other men, women and children.
ANDERSON (voice over): And unexpected message that sent Sally in search of a story and helped her uncover the dark reality of migrants in search of a
better life in Europe, ending up in Libyan detention centers.
HAYDEN: That was my first communication with people who were inside detention centers. It quickly became clear that people inside many of these
detention centers had hidden phones.
And my number and my name started being passed around. And I was then contacted by people inside many other detention centers and I began to
gather this evidence.
ANDERSON (voice over): And the evidence Sally gathered pointed to systemic abuse of thousands of migrants who've been intercepted at sea and locked up
in detention centers in Libya indefinitely since 2017.
HAYDEN: This has been supported by the European Union, the European Union flies, drones, helicopters planes to conduct surveillance to spot these
refugee boats and is also supporting the Libyan coast guard with tens of millions of euro to carry out interceptions.
And this is effectively a way of circumnavigating international law because European vessel would not be able to send people back to Libya, because
their lives would be in danger there. But Libyan vassal can do that.
ANDERSON (voice over): In my fourth time we drowned. Sally manages to shed light on the unimaginable horror that migrants face. But she also gives the
reader a glimpse into their humanity.
HAYDEN: What is happening inside detention centers includes rape, torture, you know, other types of violence, forced labor, starvation, medical
neglect, and a lot of that I document in the book.
I also tried to document generally humanity, how people survive in these situations, and what their day to day life is like, because I felt like a
lot of their coverage is in a way dehumanizing.
ANDERSON (voice over): Sally's work as a journalist has taken her all across Africa to countries such as Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Uganda, and
Somalia. She's reported on refugee crises on famine, and on war.
But the roots of her storied career can be traced all the way back to the CNN Newsroom in London, where she interned in 2014.
HAYDEN: My time at CNN really helped me a huge amount. I mean, it was very informative. You get to work with the best of the best, you get to see how
they make decisions. How do they decide what is the most newsworthy story of the day?
How do they decide who goes on error? How do they contact people and deal with contributors? You know, how they deal under pressure, because it's a
very pressurized environment.
And it was really just, you know, incredible for me, I carry that that experience with me up until now.
ANDERSON: Sally Hayden recipient of the prestigious Orwell Prize for political writing. Congratulations to Sally, you're watching CNN.