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Russia Getting Around Sanctions By Plundering Sudan's Gold; Grain Exports Still On Hold One Week After Deal; Taiwan Holds Defense Drills Amid Fears Of Chinese Threat; Opposition Leader: Power Grab Reminiscent Of Gadhafi Regime; Pope Denounces "Evil" Of Sexual Abuse during Canada Trip; INARA Charity Climbs Mt. Kilimanjaro To Help Refugees. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired July 29, 2022 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN, London. This is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Welcome back! This hour on "Connect the World" Russia's far reaching tentacles being felt across the world,
thousands of miles from Ukraine, Russia having a devastating impact on another country tamping down democratic change and plundering its riches
its weapons, not just guns, but also gold.
In an exclusive report CNN takes a closer look at Russia's operation to illegally exploit and smuggle gold from Sudan. It's been going on for years
now Moscow using those games to replenish its war chest for Ukraine.
Well, CNN's Nima Elbagir and her team traveled to the north of Sudan to show us now how Russia manipulates the Sudanese military government and how
it is using front companies to get around U.S. sanctions to hold on to the gold have a look at this.
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Deep in Sudan's gold country, miners toil in the searing heat, barely
surviving in what should be one of Africa's richest countries providing gold for a war a continent away.
We investigate a force more powerful than Sudan's government controlling its gold. Subverting Sudan's destiny, threatening me and our sources and 14
democracies to evade sanctions in Russia's war on Ukraine question managers on his way they say. We uncover the extent of Russia's grip on Sudan.
For millennia Sudan has produced some of the most sought after gold in the world. And Putin's private army, the notorious paramilitary group Wagner
knows it. Sudan's government is denying Wagner's existence in country but we're not buying it and we've come to investigate.
Further tentacles stretch right across Africa. We've discovered some of its most notorious operatives are working on Sudan. Evgeny Prigozhin the Head
of Wagner. Mikhail Potepkin Head of Sudan Ops and Alexander Sergeyevich Kuznetsov Wagner's key enforcer previously convicted of kidnap and robbery
working with this man, Sudanese General Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo AKA - in a quid-pro-quo for training and weaponry.
We traveled 200 miles north from the Capital Khartoum to Gold Country to take a closer look at Wagner's main moneymaker Artisanal Gold. Miners bring
rocks they extract here to be processed 85 percent of Sudan's gold is produced artisanal.
ELBAGIR (on camera): This right here it may not look like much. This is what's left after the rocks that the miners have brought in are milled. Now
they've taken what they can out of it, but this gets sold and when it's properly processed with someone who has superior technology, you can make
10 times what those miners over there are making.
ELBAGIR (voice over): Ten times more money without any of the backbreaking work. And the only foreign processing plant operational in Sudan is
Wagner's Moroe Gold, despite a Sudanese law limiting ownership to locals. Also troubling Moroe Gold was sanctioned two years ago by the United States
for exploiting Sudan's natural resources and spreading their malign influence around the globe.
According to the Sudanese government, they officially ceased operations but they are still here, still evading sanctions. We verified their location
with coordinates provided by Sudanese anti-corruption investigators and head there to see for ourselves.
As we approached the red flag of the former Soviet Union blows in the wind, increasingly used by Russian nationalists. It brazenly marks the Moroe Gold
compound. A Russian tanker sits next to it. We get to the entrance and decide to ask a few questions, but not before we turn on our covert
cameras. Well, that's convenient they've just confirmed the Russians are at this location.
ELBAGIR (voice over): There's a black pickup approaching. OK, get on. Guys just confirmed that the Russian managers are on this black pickup and is on
his way to us. A Russian van races to the office but no one seems to be coming over. Seems the Russian manager has changed his mind. But others
turn up instead.
They claim this plant is Sudanese owned and is called as - remember that name? It's important --. We head off the property to do some more filming.
But we're followed security approaches they want us to stop.
ELBAGIR (on camera): This is public ground. This is public ground. Why is your bomb stopping here trying to get us to move on they're taking pictures
of us of our license plates.
ELBAGIR (voice over): The reason they're so nervous - is a front for the Russian Company Moroe Gold, Wagner is still operating illegally a foreign
company pretending to be Sudanese to evade U.S. sanctions.
We obtained their registration documents to prove it. The document on the left is from Moroe Gold, the one on the right Al Solag these dates
represent complaints made in employment courts against Moroe Gold. These ones from Al Solag are the same. Under Sudanese law when a company's
holdings are transferred so are any judgments against it?
Here you can see the judgments against both companies are identical. All they've done is changed the name Wagner hiding in plain sight to avoid U.S.
sanctions and keep the financial pipeline flowing back to Moscow, and its war on Ukraine a dangerous business to delve into.
ELBAGIR (on camera): Since we've arrived in country, I've been informed by sources of threats that they believe to be credible against me. They say
that's what happens here. When you look too closely at Russia's business dealings were after me one of those sources and he's asked that I come
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Moroe Gold is a front for the Russians, specifically for the forces of Wagner that are working to exploit gold in Sudan and its
export. It's the front it's not a company that extracts gold from tailings and it buys gold from the Sudanese artisanal miners. That's not legal,
because the law says that any gold producer is supposed to report the quantity it produces to the central bank and to the Ministry of Mining, and
that does not happen.
ELBAGIR (voice over): Inside Sudan's central bank a whistleblower snapped this photo of computer screen showing official production in 2021 at 49.7
tons. 32.7 tons are unaccounted for by the central bank. But the real figure we're told by whistleblowers could be over 220 tons. That's around
$13.4 billion worth of gold a year that's being stolen from Sudan.
How has this happened? Two years ago, the Sudanese people successfully overthrew Africa's second longest ruling dictator --. 18 months later, the
military staged its own coup, sweeping aside civilian and they did this we're told with Wagner's support in exchange for gold.
This man had a front row seat to Russia's machinations, and has evidence to prove it stood to gain by supporting the Sudanese military's coup. Under
threat of assassination he's been in hiding for the last nine months, moving from safe house to safe house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Russians and Sudanese officers saw the civilians in the government as an obstacle to the plan. The official anti-corruption
task force was in caving to pressure or threats or even bribery. The armed forces were found to be complicit in the smuggling of gold by the Russians,
and it was raised with them.
ELBAGIR (on camera): Do you blame Russia for the death of democracy here in Sudan?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Definitely. Russia carries the majority of the blame for the silk birthing of Sudan's democracy.
ELBAGIR (voice over): Just days later, his nephew was killed by state actors trying to stop a pro-democracy demonstration. And the two weeks
we've been in Sudan investigating Russia's illegal gold mining 10 people were killed, protesting for change. It's not just on the battlefields of
Ukraine that Russia is spilling blood. Here too there is a human cost. The cost of Russia's support of Sudan's generals in return for its gold
ANDERSON: Joining me now is Nima Elbagir. This is not new and this is not a new story to the United States. What's been their response?
ELBAGIR: Yes, it's been an open secret for years.
ELBAGIR: Essentially, their response was to confirm our voicing to confirm loudness continued presence in country, but to say that they were
monitoring the situation that they will continue to raise with the Sudanese military rulers, what they call the malign influence of Wagner and Russia
in the region.
I mean, at least they responded. The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Russian Ministry of Defense, phone numbers that we have for promotion
all didn't result in any response. Sudan's generals are trying to ignore that this is happening.
But the U.S. is in a very difficult position, because they have known for some time that Russia is looking for these avenues of gold of revenue to
buttress themselves against U.S. sanctions. And what we're seeing, especially with what the Ruble has been doing recently, is that that is
working in the U.S. has allowed that to happen.
ANDERSON: What is Hemedti relationship with Moscow? And how deep does this Russian influence in Sudan go?
ELBAGIR: He essentially has inherited the relationship of his mentor of Former Dictator Bashir with the Russians, perhaps in a slightly more
subservient role that Omar al-Bashir was in. And in return for training, for weaponry for technological support, so much disinformation has poured
out onto the internet in Arabic in Sudan. There is a Russian making all in support of making Hemedti the most powerful man in the country.
He's very close. He's number two. So they have - they have actually done well on their investment. But what's going against them and him is the
revolutionary movement in Sudan, and the ways in which the Sudanese people continue to go out on the streets and die for their right to democracy.
ANDERSON: While the U.S. says effectively, you know, our viewers can see the words specifically, but what effectively, they are saying is we are
monitoring the situation. And how much leverage does Washington have over those who run Sudan these days?
ELBAGIR: Well, you always have sanctions, and there is a very good argument to be made, especially against Hemedti whose forces have been implicated by
eyewitnesses for years and atrocities therefore in other parts of Sudan, you have a very good case for global - sanctions. But what we've seen in
the Horn of Africa, the way that they dealt with Abby Ahmed in Ethiopia, the way that they had difficulties in Somalia, they're not very good at
making these kinds of decisive decisions on the foreign stage right now.
And especially with the hunger, crisis, biting and Russia's ability to place, its thumbs on that lever, and starve the world and raise inflation.
For now, though, what we're hearing from a lot of the Sudanese who are risking their lives to get this evidence out there is that they feel that
America lacks the political will to deal with this, and it's impacting Sudan. It's also impacting America.
ANDERSON: Nima Elbagir on the story for us, thank you very much indeed powerful reporting. If you want to read more about it do go to the website,
you'll find more of Nima's reporting - big team around members while only should be the first to suggest that this is a big team effort, you'll find
maps linking that reporting tool and a closer look at the key players that Nima has just been talking about. This all on your CNN app or you can log
on to cnn.com. Nima thank you.
Well, Russia plundering gold while preventing Ukraine from exporting grain to the world. Its prolonged blockade appears to be nearing an end one week
after Ukraine and Russia signed mirror agreements to resume the exports but ships loaded with grain have not yet left three principal ports in Southern
Today the President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in G7, ambassadors gathered at the port in Tirana Mosque in a show of unity, calling on exports to resume and
at a news conference in nearby Odessa, Ukraine's Infrastructure Minister expressed what could best be called "Cautious Optimism" about just when
that could happen?
Well, Nic Robertson is in Odessa with important details what before the start of this, these exports and what Nic could happen next? What are you
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, it could be that the several dozen ships that are loaded with grain in three of Ukraine's
ports here on the Black Sea actually get to leave and actually get to sail out through the Black Sea through the Bosphorus and bring grain to that's
much needed in many parts of the world.
It could be according to the Infrastructure Minister, something that begins happening as soon as this weekend. Today, tomorrow is how President
Zelenskyy framed it, however, I think, perhaps caution that is in the wind at the moment because while the Ukrainians have put their proposed routes
to the UN for these ships to come out, safely from Ukrainian ports and get out to the Black Sea while they've handed those routes over to the UN.
ROBERTSON: It seems that Russia is yet to sign off on those routes. And Ukraine believes it's done everything that it can, that it's ready to do
this. And it's complied with all the elements of the UN brokered deal that it needs to. And it's Russia that's the holdout.
I spoke today to the Ambassador of the United States here in Ukraine and the British Ambassador here as well, to get their views on what's
happening. This is what they told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON (on camera): Precisely what is holding things up now?
MELINDA SIMMONS, BRITISH AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: So there's one last piece of the agreement which is on the corridors for the ships, the United States
isn't part of this agreement. But once that is agreed, then the ships can sail.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Ukraine's agreed to it. So we're waiting for Russia.
SIMMONS: We are waiting for Russia to implement this deal yes.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Precisely what are we waiting for at the moment to get the cargo moving?
SIMMONS: Well, my understanding is that they're still signing off on the route that will be taken. Ukrainians have put their options together.
Russians have other ideas. The UN is having to mediate it. That's what we're waiting on.
ROBERTSON (on camera): The ball is in Russia's court?
SIMMONS: The ball is in Russia's court but then it always has been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: Yes, what she went on to say that was a balls always been in Russia's court. Because of course, as she pointed out, that if Russia
stopped this war, then of course, there'd be no problem getting the grain to the world.
And that's really what the international community, at least those that many that support Ukraine had been saying that Russia has essentially been
holding the world to food ransom, and has actually leveraged its position and had some sanctions east on it. So it can actually export some food and
fertilizer as well.
At the moment, it's really all eyes on the UN to see what they can get from Russia to allow this to go ahead but picture from here as they're ready,
ANDERSON: Yes. And the ball as a number of those ambassadors effectively told you is in Russia's court. Ankara Turkey, of course will be eager to
make this successful, given that they have been part of the brokering of this deal and you know, will want to be acknowledged as such.
I know that President Erdogan and President Putin are due to meet in Sochi next week. What sort of leverage do you think ultimately, Turkey might have
in ensuring that this is, you know, successful and as immediate as possible at this point?
ROBERTSON: Turkey has invested a huge amount. President Erdogan has really sort of put a lot on the line here being a mediator because he can speak
both with Russia and he can speak with Ukraine who is supplying with aerial drones that are targeting Russian forces.
It has put himself in the middle and he wants to be a mediator. He wants to help like that. But you know, go back to last weekend. The deal was signed
a week ago today on Friday. On Saturday, Russia sent two huge cruise missiles into the port just down from where I'm standing here right now.
And then, Turkey's Defense Minister spoke to Russia's Defense Minister who'd signed the deal. This was Saturday last week and the Russians told
the Turkish Defense Minister that they had not targeted they had not fired missiles at the port the following day. They said they had the following
day. Then they said that they targeted some military installations in the port.
The British government said they'd analyze the photographs. And they didn't believe that was the case that the Russia hadn't actually hit military
facilities. But the bottom line here is Turkey is in a delicate position. It wants to do everything it can to make this happen but it's already been
embarrassed diplomatic diplomatically by Russia just last weekend.
So what leverage they - what leverage Turkey really has over Russia to make Russia comply I think that's a very big an open question right now.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. Nic, thank you! Nic Robertson is in Odessa for you. Well, a top U.S. lawmaker goes to Taiwan tensions are building as Beijing,
Taipei and Washington all await that answer. We'll have the very latest on that in a moment.
Plus, they demanded democracy during the Arab Spring and got it now there are fears a change in the constitution will drag Tunisia backwards. I speak
to a leading opposition figure who's warning of a possible dictatorship.
ANDERSON: Right, welcome back. You're watching "Connect the World". We want to get you up to speed on some of the other stories that are on our radar
In the UK's record breaking heat wave last week was made at least 10 times more likely by climate change. That is according to new research. For the
first time ever the UK is halted in temperatures above 40 degrees Celsius or 104 degrees Fahrenheit.
And scientists say heat waves are becoming more frequent globally and climate change has an influence on all of them. Well, the German city of
Hanover has banned hot water in public buildings due to the Russian gas crisis.
It's the first city in Germany to make hot water unavailable in government facilities, gyms and swimming pools across EU member states. Countries are
scrambling to cut gas use by 15 percent.
U.S. and Taliban officials have met to discuss the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. The Americans push the effort to free up money to help the
Billions of Afghan dollars have been frozen overseas since the Taliban took over President Biden has ordered some of it on frozen earlier this year.
Well, those who play with fire will perish by it that was part of Chinese President Xi Jinping's reaction to any U.S. push for Taiwanese
Mr. Xi urged Washington to abide by the one China principle on his call Thursday with President Joe Biden. Well, the White House says Mr. Biden
emphasized that U.S. policy hasn't changed on Taiwan and that it "strongly opposes unilateral efforts to change the status quo".
Well, a big question is how China will respond if U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi decides that she will visit Taiwan, she and her delegation of
American lawmakers are leaving for Asia today.
But it's not clear if the self-govern Island is on their itinerary. We're expecting her to hold a news conference at the top of the hour. We'll let
you know she reveals her plans. Right now let's get you to CNN's Will Ripley, who is in Taipei. And what is the reaction there to what is at
present, you know, a possible U.S. visit?
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, she was supposed to visit earlier this year, Becky, right before she got COVID.
It was never officially confirmed. But we did hear later on that in fact, there was a trip in the works and just like this potential trip, it was
kept under wraps.
So on the official agenda we're hearing its Japan, South Korea, Malaysia and Singapore. If she were to stop in Japan, it would be very easy to get a
military escort to fly over to Taiwan. The two are very close.
And that would make sense because she might need a military escort given what China has been hinting it might do in retaliation. But we will say
this, Becky, the words from Xi Jinping, not as strong as they could have been which has some here hoping that this is going to be a rhetorical
escalation, not a physical or military escalation.
RIPLEY (voice over): Taiwan trains for a Chinese attack, air raid sirens in Taipei fighter jets scramble. Helicopters hunt submarines, destroyers open
fire. China's refusal to publicly condemn Russia's war on Ukraine is adding urgency to the islands annual military drills, fueling fears of a cross
Taiwan tensions dominated a more than two hour call Thursday. President Joe Biden and Chinese leader Xi Jinping is trading warnings on Taiwan. Chinese
state media quoting Xi those who play with fire will perish by it.
RIPLEY (voice over): The ominous warning amid growing speculation U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi may be planning a trip to Taiwan a plan
discouraged by Biden.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: But military thinks it's not a good idea right now.
RIPLEY (voice over): Pelosi won't talk about her travel plans for security reasons; it would be the highest level U.S. visit in 25 years.
BRIAN HIOE, TAIWANESE-AMERICAN LIVING IN TAIPEI: There could have been more dialogue between Taiwan and the Biden Administration rather than have this
confusing mixed signals presented out there openly in the public in a way that now China has noticed and will respond in some way.
RIPLEY (voice over): A U.S. aircraft carrier strike group is back in the South China Sea, citing routine operations ahead of Pelosi's possible
HIOE: It could be caught in the crossfire of a conflict between the U.S. and China it would be Taiwan which is right there next to China.
RIPLEY (voice over): These young Beijing promises firm and resolute measures to safeguard national sovereignty. Chinese passports show Taiwan
as a mainland province, even though it has its own military and government for more than seven decades.
WANG TING-YU, TAIWANESE MP, DEMOCRATIC PROGRESSIVE PARTY: Taiwan is the country highway is our home. We are not home of anyone, not Chinese, not
RIPLEY (voice over): China considers U.S. Taiwan diplomacy a red line, Beijing won't rule out using force to prevent the islands formal
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will show our waiting to defend ourselves.
RIPLEY (voice over): Defending against China's massive military would be a Herculean task. Taiwan is counting on friends like the U.S. to defend their
democracy from what they call a growing threat.
RIPLEY: But when you ask people here if they think the United States would actually send in troops if there were to be a conflict with China, a lot of
people say they're not sure some just say no.
And so really, it is on Taiwan right now to try to train them to fend off a military 15 times bigger in terms of financing than their own, not to
mention sheer numbers.
But people here in Taiwan say that they are determined to defend their island, an island that's had its own system for more than seven years. And
yet still Becky is in the passports in China, as listed as a province.
China just does not accept any suggestion that Taiwan could be its own independent entity. They say it will be a part of China and if there's any
suggestion to the otherwise, they will correct that.
ANDERSON: Will Ripley is on the story out of Taipei in Taiwan. Thank you, sir. Well just ahead on "Connect the World" with me Becky Anderson,
Tunisia's president gathering new powers including immunity and extended terms but the opposition calls what he's doing a coup.
And just a little later if the pope wraps up his Canadian pilgrimage of penance, we'll find out how it's being viewed by those who survived abuse
in what were church run institutions, that coming up.
ANDERSON: More than 11 years after Tunisians topple their totalitarian government and demanded democracy, they have voted in a new constitution.
Monday's referendum was a democratic act in itself but ironically, critics say it could destroy the fledgling system and bring back the days of
CNN's Nada Bashir has more.
NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER (voice over): A new constitution for Tunisia and new powers for the country's president. It was an overwhelming referendum
win for Kais Saied; they're riddled with controversy, with less than a third of eligible voters casting ballots.
KAIS SAIED, TUNISIAN PRESIDENT: We will continue to build Tunis that it becomes like it once was and even better than it once was.
BASHIR (voice over): The new constitution will shift significant powers away from Parliament and back to the presidency. A move saved claims will
give him the mandate to rid the country of corruption. But opposition leaders feared this could take Tunisia back to an era of one man rule.
RACHED GHANNOUCHI, OPPOSITION POLITICIAN: The constitution is for an individual regime that reminds us of the Qaddafi regime and other Arab
BASHIR (voice over): Tunisia was once regarded as the only democracy to emerge from the mass protests of the 2011 Arab Spring. Now, analysts say
this new constitution could unravel the political gains made by Tunisia over the last decade.
SARAH YERKES, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: Unfortunately, the referendum that was passed on July 25 is really sort of
the final death blow to democracy in Tunisia.
BASHIR (on camera): What signal does this send other countries in the region where people do still have aspirations for democratic change?
YERKES: I don't think it's the end. I don't think we're going to see the democracy activists go home and give up. I think we're going to see them
continue to fight and hopefully that will inspire others in countries that are in worse situations to continue to fight for democracy as well.
BASHIR (voice over): But for Tunisia's neighbors, aspirations for democratic change have proven nearly impossible to realize. In Libya, a
decade of violent clashes between rival factions has left the country in a state of political paralysis.
And in Egypt, President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi has faced widespread condemnation by rights groups of his oppressive and undemocratic regime,
but with severe economic crises across the region, and growing concern over the erosion of civil rights. Analysts say pro-democracy movements could
still prove successful in demanding political reform.
YERKES: But I do think people they learned in 2010, 2011 that their voices can be heard and that they matter. And that lesson has not gone away. I
think we will continue to see protests, we will continue to see people use the street to try to demand change and try to improve their lives.
BASHIR (voice over): For now those across the region hoping for change. We'll be watching to see whether this truly is the final nail in the coffin
of Tunisia's short lived democratic era. Nada Bashir, CNN, Istanbul.
ANDERSON: Why people are so alarmed and what then exactly is in this constitution which alarm so many? Well, here are some of the highlights it
allows the president to appoint the prime minister and Cabinet members a job that used to be reserved for parliament.
He can fire any government or its members at will and extend his term if for some reason elections cannot be held. The president has the right to
draft new laws and his proposals will take priority in parliament.
And constitution also gives the sitting president immunity and says his actions shall not be questioned and the list goes on. But critics say it
comes down to this, a new governmental structure where the president gets the final say.
Of course, we've mentioned President Saied defends his moves to amass more power as a way to resolve government corruption and other serious problems
in Tunisia. You saw in Nada's piece a leading opposition politician, Rached Ghannouchi warning of a Gaddafi style, tyranny.
But Ghannouchi's own party has also been accused of making bad choices that have dragged the country into dire economic straits. Just a few hours ago,
I caught up with him and asked him to respond.
GHANNOUCHI: We do not consider ourselves infallible or free of any responsibility for what took place in the last 10 years. However, we refuse
to be the only ones the sole ones you know, held responsible Tunisia was another was participating in the government.
GHANNOUCHI: But during the presidency of the late -- al-Nahyan was not leading the government. It was led by the first party which was - Tunis,
which was the first party in government and in Parliament. The last decade was not a black, dark decade.
This is the narrative of the counter revolution the enemies of democracy, who wish to justify the coup against democracy. Yes, the economy faced
difficulties. But when another was in charge, in the first three years, Tunisia experienced the highest growth rates of the last 10 years,
Tunisians most importantly, enjoyed freedom.
ANDERSON: But it's the economy that is in dire straits with respect. And young Tunisians have had enough look, the IMF does look set to work with
Saied with a rescue deal without I have to say political conditionality. Will you support him if only for the good of the country at this point?
GHANNOUCHI: We do not believe that there is a possibility for any economic progress in the context of a dictatorship. We link democracy and economic
development, the project of President Saied is an authoritarian regime that cannot where Investors private Investors cannot trust in a system where
there is no independence of the judiciary, no freedom of the press and no accountability.
Therefore, the climate of dictatorship is not the right climate or development progress. Therefore, the year that was led by Saied on his own,
where he monopolize decision making, we have lost through the scoop what was enjoyed in Tunisia, the freedoms.
At the same time, Tunisia in that year did not gain any prosperity or progress. It has been negative on all levels.
ANDERSON: But while you're saying that the IMF should not cut a deal with Kais Saied at this point for the benefit of the Tunisian economy.
GHANNOUCHI: We keep; we hold all international institutions responsible for not turning a blind eye to the will of the Tunisian people and the
aspirations to freedom. And we do not believe that there can be development without freedom or democracy. Therefore, we hope that there should be a
link between all economic aid and democratic progress.
ANDERSON: The U.S. State Department spokesman Ned Price has said that Washington is "aware of concerns by some about a lack of inclusive and
transparent process and the limited scope for genuine public debate during the drafting of the constitution"; he said which could compromise the
protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms.
But it was all couched in terms of Washington being aware of concerns these weren't Washington's facts themselves. To your mind, is that sufficient
response from the U.S.?
GHANNOUCHI: We know that the situation is very precarious and that the position of western democracies is sensitive between dealing with the
dictatorship. There is they are torn between putting stability in Tunisia because the U.S. has interests in Tunisia and it needs stability in
But the American position we believe is evolving towards further pressure exerting further pressure on Kais Saied's regime in order for more openers
for bringing back democracy for organizing a national dialogue that brings together everyone, but they are not finding any positive response.
GHANNOUCHI: And I believe that the Western and U.S. position will evolve towards exerting further pressure and what realizing that what they have
done so far has not led to any positive results.
We believe that the democratic family around the world has not reached the required level, which is, which starts by cooling things with their real
name. Because so far they have criticized Kais Saied for undermining democracy and that human rights are being violated and they have exerted
pressure to respect a pluralistic system but none of this has led to anything.
These countries have so far not pulled what happened on the 25th of July 2021 as of --.
ANDERSON: We must note that Rashid Ghannouchi appeared in court earlier this month in a money laundering probe which his lawyer and critics of Kais
Saied have described as politically motivated.
In our interview, he denied the allegations put forth against him. Well, just ahead what the Pope said, for the very first time on his historic
journey of penance in Canada.
ANDERSON: Pope Francis will head to northern calendar in the coming hours. The final stop on what is his weeklong pilgrimage of penances described by
Ahead of that Francis acknowledged for the first time during his historic trip the sexual abuse of minors by members of the Canadian Catholic Church,
take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS: The Church in Canada after being hurt and devastated by the evil perpetrated by some of its sons and daughters has set out on a new
path. I think in particular of the sexual abuse against minors and vulnerable people, crimes that require firm action and an irreversible
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, right now the Pope is meeting with indigenous groups in Quebec City. Throughout the tour, Francis has apologized to indigenous
communities for abuse in this Canadian church run school.
CNN's Paula Newton standing by for us in Quebec City and she joins us now live. And you've been with them on this trip. And you've also been speaking
to survivors. How has this trip been received, Paula?
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: With pain, Becky, I can tell you with pain, you just rightly pointed out the fact that for the first time the
pope uttered the kind of monstrous crimes, just a few of them that were committed here to literally tens of thousands of indigenous children.
Indeed, being categorical was important. Having said that, as historic as this trip is Becky, there are a lot of pieces of this atonement on what the
Pope calls his trip of penance.
There is a lot missing for those indigenous survivors. I'll remind you a lot of them are elderly, a lot of them have already passed away. In this
historic sense for his visit here, he has apologized more than once and yet there are still some very mixed feelings, take a listen.
NEWTON (voice over): The Pope's self-proclaimed act of contrition in Canada was not without its lighter moments. In crowds embracing the church's
future, these acts seem to fortify an ailing Pope.
After he begged Canada's indigenous peoples for forgiveness, there was this extraordinary gesture. Chief Wilton Littlechild, himself a survivor of a
Catholic residential institution is honoring the pontiff with a headdress.
So many indigenous peoples still revere him and the religion he represents. At 89, Agnes Swampy' gnarled hands swollen and damaged from years of forced
labor in a residential school are still classed in prayer.
AGNES SWAMPY, RESIDENTIAL SCHOOL ABUSE SURVIVOR: I still say my rosaries because I always think I always say God wasn't the one that abuses.
NEWTON (voice over): Her painful past has nothing to do with her creator, she says, she appreciates the apology but forgiving the church. No, not
NEWTON (on camera): As hopeful as the Vatican and the Catholic Church have been that this apology will be well received. So many indigenous survivors
are asking what now what more can be done for reconciliation.
ARCHBISHOP DONALD BOLEN, REGINA ARCHDIOCESE: For those who are looking for more, I guess, all I would want to say is we want to continue to walk with
you. We want to find ways that we can find words and actions that will bring healing. And that's going to be a long journey.
NEWTON (voice over): That journey must continue with all Canadians and especially the nearly one third of the country that identify as Catholic. -
says she's disheartened by indifference to the faith. Not many showed up to see the Pope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm so disappointed. I thought there'd be more people here we all thought there'd be more people here.
NEWTON (voice over): In fact, the Catholic Church's future in healing is still in doubt here. In the words of Canada's Governor General indigenous
herself, seeking reconciliation is not enough, she says reconciliation must be earned.
NEWTON: Those are incredibly powerful words coming from the indigenous, again, indigenous Governor General. And Becky I'm always staggered that
through everything that they have been through that those elders that those survivors, so many of them still cling to the faith that cannot be said of
other Canadians who as you've heard that devout Catholic right there say that there was a measure of indifference.
It's interesting now to that so many people are saying that this is larger in scope that the Pope does mean to speak out to indigenous peoples all
over the world. But there is that unsettling feeling that the Vatican and the Pope still kind of took this on as a PR mission.
And there are people who are uncomfortable with that. When we talk about actions survivors tell me, they want to see a commitment that does mean
actions in terms of financial compensation.
And it means a lasting relationship with indigenous peoples here who have been so harmed by the church, Becky.
ANDERSON: Yes, no, you're making some very good points. And like we've heard new reporting, that doesn't matter how many apologies are made. There
will be some who will, you know, just never feel that's enough that we'll be able to who are others who are looking for compensation.
And so the story goes on. Thank you. Your reporting has been terrific during this trip. Paula, thank you. Well, still to come. We'll visit the
biggest Syrian refugee camp in the world.
10 years after it open why Oxfam says one crisis after another is pushing people at this camp to the brink more on that after this.
ANDERSON: Well, it's been 10 years since the Zaatari Refugee Camp opened in Jordan. It's about 16 kilometers from the Syrian border and most of the
80,000 people there are from Syria.
The camp has evolved from a series of tents to some semblance quite frankly, of a city. And like most cities, the crises of the last two years
have had a major impact from the pandemic to soaring food prices caused by Russia's war on Ukraine.
Now the British charity Oxfam warns that it's pushing Syrian refugees to the brink. We spoke to a mother and daughter at the camp to see what their
situation is really like, have a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the Syrian refugees, the choking winds, the swirling sands, the heat now everyday life at the Zaatari refugee camp in
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These flatlands, conjuring, unimaginable cold rain, wind, and simply too many people to fit. Some nights nearly 2000 Syrians
arrive here, it can't grow fast enough.
AMAL MUHAMMAD AL-HUSHAN, SYRIAN LIVING IN ZAATARI REFUGEE CAMP: When we arrived, there were so many people, someone lost their child, someone
else's child was hurt. It was so difficult to come from a colorful place to a place that has nothing but tense and sound.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess at some point, people must have thought I'm only going to be here for a little while. But then as the months went on,
they realized they were going to be here a lot longer.
AL-HUSHAN: No matter how long you stay for, you're still a guest. You cannot buy property, a car. You cannot have rights as the people who are
from the land. I'm a guest in Jordan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we're looking at an entire generation that has grown up in the camp, knowing nothing account.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to be a doctor and help people.
AL-HUSHAN: Honestly, I see my kids grow up without a guaranteed future. Now Sarah - wants to be a doctor. I cannot see a future where she can become a
doctor. My son wants to be an engineer. I don't see a guaranteed future that he can be that. We are human beings, all of us.
We all have dreams, rights and ambitions to reach our potential. I hope there will be a focus on refugees to have bigger ambitions.
ANDERSON: That was Amal and her daughter - which you just heard from; they've lived in the camp almost since it opened in 2012. Oxfam is calling
on the international community to help the refugees there.
Well, in tonight's parting shots no challenges insurmountable. Barriers the message from a charity whose sole focus is supporting refugees wounded in
war. In - my former colleague, CNN colleague Arwa Damon once they hit the heights, Africa's highest peak to be specific.
And Arwa has a team climbing Mount Kilimanjaro to raise money for kids impacted by conflict and to show them they can reach any summit. Let's meet
ANDERSON: Every one of them knows what it means to face a hard climb. Adnan was shot by a sniper in Syria when he was 14. His goal is to compete in the
Paralympics. Ukrainian refugee Tatiana fled Kharkiv under daily bombardment.
Afghan refugee Shaqayeq had to flee her home around six years ago when her journalist mother was targeted in an attack. And Safa was a student who was
a student was injured due to unsafe conditions while living as a refugee.
You can be a hero to wounded refugee kids find out how you can support in our annex Mount Kilimanjaro climb. Do head to inara.org. Well thank you for
joining us. If it's the weekend in your part of the world, we wish you a good one. We will see you same time next week.