Return to Transcripts main page

Connect the World

U.S. Special Envoy Meets With Vladimir Putin In Moscow; April Report On U.S. Consumer Sentiment Released; China Cuts Tariffs On Some U.S. Made Semiconductors; Growing Fear As Trump Administration Targets International Students; A Look At The MAGA Media Covering The White House; U.S.-Iran Negotiations Continue In Oman This Weekend; Thousands Pay Respects To Late Pope Francis Ahead Of Funeral Saturday. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired April 25, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:32]

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, this is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Welcome to what is the second hour of the show from our Middle East programing headquarters. I'm Becky

Anderson. Time here in Abu Dhabi is just after 6:00 p.m. It is just after 5:00 p.m. in Moscow, where U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff is again meeting with

the Russian President Vladimir Putin as U.S. President Donald Trump tells "TIME" magazine, Crimea will stay with Russia.

In the same interview, President Trump claiming he has made 200 trade deals. Do the American people buy into his approach? Well, we will dig into

the latest U.S. consumer sentiment report that has just been released. And Harvard's president speaks out saying the university is not compromising in

its lawsuit against the Trump administration. I'll speak to an international student studying there about what he and his peers are going

through on campus.

Well, today could be a big turning point in America's push to end Russia's war on Ukraine. This hour, White House special envoy Steve Witkoff is in

the Russian capital, meeting with the Russian president. Well, the meeting comes in the wake of a second deadly night of Russian attacks on Ukraine.

At least eight people were killed in drone strikes across the country.

The U.S. president, Donald Trump, has expressed frustration at the ongoing hostilities, and sources say Mr. Trump has privately admitted ending the

conflict has been a lot more difficult than he anticipated. The president suggesting in that interview with "TIME" magazine that concessions must be

made to reach a deal, including that, quote, "Crimea will stay with Russia," though Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has long made it

clear he is not willing to let it go.

Well, meanwhile, President Trump had this to say about what he believes Russia is giving up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What concessions has Russia offered up thus far to get to the point where you're closer to peace?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Stopping the war. Stopping, taking the whole country. Pretty big concession.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Well, CNN's chief international security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, following the story for us. He is live today from London.

Nick, how is Trumps position likely to inform Witkoff's talks with Putin in Moscow?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I think ultimately Witkoff will be delivering the outcome of a meeting on Wednesday

in London here, which appeared to have tried to find some kind of common ground between the U.S. position, which was distinctly favorable towards

Moscow. The suggestion that the U.S. might unilaterally recognize Crimea as part of Russia, certainly part of that, along with the possibility of

freezing the front lines as they are, maybe with some other concessions that intolerable to Ukraine, certainly, and to many of its European allies.

And so we heard from President Zelenskyy of Ukraine that a sort of new document emerged from that London meeting found its way to Donald Trump's

desk. And so clearly, that is what Witkoff will be presenting to Russian officials. An indication, though, that we may not see radical change in the

next 72 hours simply because the Russian foreign minister, its top diplomat, Sergey Lavrov, gave an interview to CBS, which airs in full

Sunday, a part of which was released today, in which he said that they at this point want to reach a deal, but certain things still have to be

finetuned, I paraphrase there.

I think really pointing out the fact that Russia wants to continue the idea that it's amenable to some kind of settlement. It doesn't want to entirely

resist Trump's efforts here, partly because it wants to continue that diplomacy as long as possible to prevent any sanctions against it, but at

the same time, too, they are not in the same hurry that Donald Trump clearly is. A European official telling me they're so desperate to get this

done within the hundred days. That's really by Tuesday.

And so I think short of some kind of unilateral concession, like the Easter truce, so short-lived, offered by Putin for merely 30 hours, emerging from

this Witkoff meeting, Witkoff will then have to travel back to the White House, inform his boss of what the Russians have said about the now

American, European and Ukrainian proposal from London that may then get ameliorated and fed back to the Ukrainians and the Europeans again.

[10:05:05]

So this two-track process designed the White House said to speed things up at this point appears to be, frankly, playing to the Russians' hand here,

giving them way more time to maneuver here, way more time to inflict damage on the battlefield and potentially reequip their forces and see Ukraine

depleted.

Another complicating factor thrown into the mix here, Becky, in just a matter of hours before Witkoff arrived in Moscow, a mid-ranking Russian

commander was blown up outside of his home, it seemed, in the suburbs of Moscow in what's clearly, according to Russian authorities, is something of

an assassination there. And I think the finger pointed certainly towards Ukraine, although no response from them at all.

So clearly the violence inflicted often by Russia against civilians, and here a targeted assassination inside of Moscow, raging here at the same

time as this diplomacy tries to find some kind of solution -- Becky.

ANDERSON: Yes. It's good to have you.

Russia's foreign minister says Moscow is ready to strike a deal to end the conflict. This is what Sergey Lavrov said in that interview on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The president of the United States believes, and I think rightly so, that we are moving in the right

direction. The statement by the president mentions a deal, and we are ready to reach a deal. But there are still some specific points, elements of this

deal which need to be finetuned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Right. What are those specific points? We'll see.

CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is live in Moscow.

Fred, let's be clear. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, of course, has made it long clear that Crimea is a red line for him. He told reporters

on Tuesday, quote, "There is nothing to talk about. It is against our constitution. We also know what the U.S. perspective is. Donald Trump

wanted to end this as quickly as possible. Looks like he is getting very frustrated. What is the Russian position on these talks with Witkoff?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Becky. Yes, the Russians have been quite good at not disclosing what exactly some

of the issues are that they still want to talk about. They still think are in the way, as you, if you will, of reaching some sort of agreement. They

do say that there are still things that needs to be finetuned. The Russians however also saying that all of that needs to be discussed behind closed

doors.

However, as this meeting is now underway and by the way, we've just gotten a word from the Russians that it's almost been underway for three hours

now, the meeting of Steve Witkoff with Vladimir Putin, some other senior negotiators as well. There have always been two key issues that the

Russians have said are very important to them. One of them, of course, is the issue of territory with the Russians, of course, want to keep all or at

least most of all the territory that they've taken on Ukrainian soil.

Of course, as you know, a lot of that the Russians have annexed already, or claimed that there have been, or say that there have been referendums

there, and already consider that to be part of Russia. Crimea, of course, also they considered part of Russia by the Russians as well. So the

Russians certainly have said that as far as territory is concerned, that, of course, is a big issue for them. We've seen a video of that meeting on

our screen right now.

The other thing that we keep hearing from the Russians as well is, of course, the complex of a possible NATO membership for Ukraine in the

future, where the Russians are also saying that to them, that is an absolute red line. They say that that is one of the core reasons why the

war in Ukraine started in the first place. And interestingly, one of the things that we're hearing from the Russians is that on that issue, they

feel that the Trump administration understands them a lot better than any U.S. administration has in the past.

They believe that the Putin administration and the Trump administration see eye to eye on that issue of Ukraine's possible NATO membership in the

future, or Ukraine's desire to join NATO as being one of the root causes for the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. And certainly, if we look at

the interview that President Trump gave to "TIME," it seems as though his position appears to be a lot closer to Russia's position than it is, for

instance, to the U.S.'s Western partners or the Ukrainians themselves.

Nevertheless, progress, of course, has been very difficult. One of the things that I think is frustrating President Trump so much is that his

initial proposal was to put a ceasefire in place and then work through the issues that caused the Ukraine conflict in the first place. But the

Russians are essentially saying and continue to say that they want to do things exactly the other way around.

They want to get those issues out of the way, get agreements on those issues, and then there can be a ceasefire in Ukraine. Of course, all of

this as at the same time the Russians are saying that they believe that they very much have the initiative and the momentum on the battlefield. And

so therefore they say that for them, it's the Ukrainians who need a ceasefire a lot more than the Russians do at this point in time.

What we heard from the Russians, Becky, is that they say they want a ceasefire agreement as fast as possible, but they are not going to sign any

ceasefire agreement if it is detrimental, as they put it, to Russia's core national interests -- Becky.

[10:10:16]

ANDERSON: Good to have you, Fred. Fred is in Moscow this evening.

In that same "TIME" interview that we've been discussing today, Mr. Trump claimed he has cut 200 deals with countries around the globe since setting

off his trade war. I should point out none of those deals has been announced. When pressed by reporters earlier today when he was leaving for

Rome with his wife, he declined to share any specific countries or agreements that have been made, but said, quote, "I'm dealing with all the

companies, very friendly companies. We're meeting with China, we're doing fine with everybody. But ultimately I've made all the deals."

Well, meantime, the U.S. Treasury secretary says the U.S. has not started formal negotiations with China.

It looks like the U.S. public may not be feeling so confident. That is according to news just in to us moments ago. The final Consumer Sentiment

Report from the United States for April was released at the top of the hour. And we are getting a sense of just how Americans are feeling about

the economy amid this on again, off again trade war.

CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich has the details for you.

This report just dropped a couple of minutes ago. Just walk us through, if you will.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So this is the fourth consecutive month of declining consumer sentiment. This is a

report put out by the University of Michigan and consumer sentiment in the month of April dropped by 8.4 percent. And this report indicates that there

was a modest decline in sentiment about people's current conditions.

But the expectations for the future was really where this report picked up the steepest decline. Since January expectations about the future and the

economy has declined by 32 percent. That's the steepest three-month drop that we've seen since the 1990 recession. People were concerned about the

labor market, about trade policy. And this report indicates that because of this decline in consumer sentiment, spending is unlikely to continue to be

strong.

And that is important because 70 percent of U.S. GDP is made up of consumer -- excuse me, consumer spending and consumer sentiment, how people feel,

usually translates directly to that. It's also worth noting that people's expectations about inflation still remain high, meaning that they do expect

inflation to rise in the next year, in the next several years. That is the highest reading we're seeing in this report since 1981.

Now, as this report picks up what happened in April, how people were feeling in April. On April 9th, the president sort of put this pause on

these reciprocal tariffs. But inflation expectations still remain. So people are not feeling that this pause is going to sort of erase all of the

nervousness around higher prices.

Also worth noting, Becky, that retail spending here in the U.S. is obviously such a critical part of U.S. GDP as I mentioned, retailers have

about 1.3 months of inventory for shelves here in the United States. That's according to the Saint Louis Fed. So once that inventory starts to move off

the shelves, retailers have to bring in new inventory. And some of that new inventory may be tariffed at that higher level.

So it's interesting that folks are feeling so bad about prices in the economy right now, when maybe prices haven't even hit yet. They're still

kind of bracing for that. So this report really sort of paints a picture of really this initial tariff sweep that we've seen with the president, sort

of the back and forth, but really people still saying that they're not feeling confident, and especially Becky, not confident about where the

economy is heading in the future.

ANDERSON: Vanessa, it's great to have you. That's a really good deep dive onto a report that has just dropped and is important as we take a look at

what is going on between the U.S. and China. Thank you.

And it does appear that China has made the first concession in what is this recent tariff war. Beijing quietly rolling back reciprocal tariffs on some

U.S. made microchips and semiconductors.

CNN's Hanako Montgomery with this.

HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: China's rollback on retaliatory tariffs targeting integrated circuits made in the United States is very

telling, given the fact that over the past few months, Beijing has exuded this air of confidence, of strength in its ability to withstand a brewing

trade war with the United States. Also, this rollback comes just a few days after the U.S. president Donald Trump hinted at a potential U-turn on his

trade war with China.

[10:15:07]

Here's what the U.S. president said on Tuesday in the Oval Office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: 145 percent is very high and it won't be that high. It will come down substantially, but it won't be zero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MONTGOMERY: Now, this is a pretty significant shift in tone, given the fact that over the past few weeks, we've seen tensions really escalate between

these two competing economies, though it's important to note that earlier on Friday, China confirmed yet again that the U.S. and China are not in

trade talks at the moment.

Now, according to the experts that CNN has spoken to, it's unlikely that China decided to roll back its retaliatory tariffs specifically in response

to the U.S. president's most recent comments. They say that if that were the case, then China would have likely announced this rollback in public.

But so far, it hasn't made a public announcement. And it also has not responded to CNN's request for a comment.

Instead, though, experts suggest that it goes to show how significant integrated circuits are to China, to the Chinese economy, and how it cannot

make these integrated circuits at home or source them elsewhere.

Now, just for some context, integrated circuits, otherwise known as microchips or semiconductors, really power a lot of the things that we use

in our everyday lives. They power our phones, computers, cars, medical devices, you name it. It's hard to imagine a world without microchips.

That's how crucial they are.

But critically, China actually lags behind other global leaders when it comes to making microchips. That's why they need to source it from the

United States, from other countries, and which is why many experts believe they're rolling back these specific retaliatory tariffs so as to aid their

own country, to aid their own country's economy and its own tech industry.

Hanako Montgomery, CNN, Tokyo.

ANDERSON: Good to have you.

Well, still to come, growing fear and simmering anger on America's college campuses as the Trump administration targets international student

activists. Next up, a Harvard student from Sweden joins me to discuss those threats. Plus, the battle with the White House over funding for his school.

That is after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Just in the World Food Program says it has run out of food in Gaza almost two months after Israel blocked aid from reaching the enclave.

The U.N. agency delivered its final stocks of food today with kitchens in Gaza set to be depleted, they say, in coming days. Well, Israel imposed the

blockade at the start of last month as a way of pressuring Hamas to accept a U.S.-backed ceasefire proposal.

CNN will follow the developments on this story and, of course, and get them to you.

[10:20:02]

Meantime, a one-two punch for one of America's most elite schools. Harvard University says it is putting in place new cost-cutting measures. Now this

comes as Harvard battles the Trump administration in court over billions of dollars of frozen funding. Now, the White House announced it was cutting

the federal grants to the school, claiming a breakdown in discussions over antisemitism on campus.

Well, the legal fight comes amid another challenge facing many of America's college campuses since the administration takes aim at a growing number of

international students. Very specifically protesters. Here's what Harvard's president had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: How much pain can Harvard absorb here?

ALAN GARBER, PRESIDENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: We don't know how much we can actually absorb, but what we do know is that we cannot compromise on basic

principles like defense of our First Amendment rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Well, our next guest is a Harvard student who wrote an op-ed for the school newspaper on the Trump administration's targeting of activists.

The piece is titled, "I'm an International Student. I Refuse to be Silenced." And Leo Gerden joins us now live.

And, Leo, there will be people watching this who, frankly, will be surprised that you were brave enough to write this piece given the current

climate. Do you feel brave at this point?

LEO GERDEN, HARVARD UNIVERSITY STUDENT: Honestly, I do feel scared. And that is the purpose of what Trump is doing right now. He's trying to set an

example out of a few people so that everyone else would be silenced. And, you know, I've talked to so many international friends over the last couple

of weeks who don't want to participate in a protest, don't want to write an op-ed, don't want to post anything political on social media.

And I totally understand it. But it would go against every principle in my body to not write this op-ed because if we start to self-silence, then this

country is on a very, very dangerous track.

ANDERSON: You wrote in that op-ed, quote, "International students on campuses across this country are scared of speaking out against the Trump

administration, criticizing the war in Gaza, or voicing any opinion that might upset the MAGA crowd." You went on to say, "We are afraid to

participate in protests, pen op-eds and conduct certain academic research."

You are comfortable speaking freely and to me today. Can you give voice to how those students who are scared to speak out are feeling? What are they

telling you?

GERDEN: You know, I think people have fought so hard to get into this university, and they've been looking forward to, you know, studying here

and getting their degree. And for many people, they want to stay in America after they've studied and potentially for their entire life. And all of

that could be taken away from them. And then it's so much easier to just not post anything on social media, just to be on the safe side.

But if all of us, if thousands of people on this campus stop, you know, doing research in the areas that we want to do it in, if we stop speaking

up, then, you know, then there's no democracy anymore.

ANDERSON: Have you spoken to students who, frankly, are so scared that they are going to leave?

GERDEN: Definitely. I think people right now are making new plans for the future, whether they are going to stay in the country, apply to other

universities abroad. Everyone definitely has a plan B, at least in mind, because now the latest is that Trump is also threatening to revoke all of

our student visas. So all international students at Harvard would get their visas revoked. So everyone is definitely thinking about alternative plans.

At least personally, I've been, you know, going through the different scenarios in my head many times. What if I'm approached by ICE agents? I

can't enter through the border, you know?

ANDERSON: Yes. And I can't verify any suggestions or reporting that ICE agents will go after anybody on campus. You may have heard that. That's

certainly not something we're reporting at CNN. But look, listen to how Harvard's president described antisemitism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARBER: At Harvard we have a real problem with antisemitism. We take it very seriously, and we're trying to address it. There is no doubt about the

severity of that problem.

[10:25:00]

We don't really see the relationship to research funding at Harvard and other universities. They are two different issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: What are you hearing from very specifically Jewish students on campus right now?

GERDEN: I agree with President Garber, and I've talked to so many Jewish friends and friends from Israel since October 7th and, you know, around

everything that's been going on on campus. And antisemitism is definitely a problem, especially within the pro-Palestinian movement. But as Garber

says, there is no connection between that and research funding, but also the demands that Trump has, they have nothing to do with antisemitism.

They are not going to actually solve the problem. And he has refused to work with Harvard, which is what Harvard has offered, to actually implement

the types of steps that would be necessary to solve the problem. So, you know, Trump is a person who is surrounding himself by, like, literal Nazis.

We -- I would give very little to his description of antisemitism.

ANDERSON: Interesting to get your position on this. You wrote your op-ed weeks before Harvard sued the Trump administration, asking your school to

take a stronger stand. Do you now feel like Harvard is doing sufficient, enough to support its position and indeed, very importantly for you, its

students?

GERDEN: I think so, I think the entire campus right now is very proud to be Harvard students and to stand by Garber when he said that we will not

surrender our independence because that is what this is actually about. Our academic freedom, our freedom of speech that is under threat right now. And

I was personally very worried that Harvard would give in to Trump's demands. But the thing is, if we give him -- if we give in on some demands,

he's going to send another letter next week.

So Harvard has also realized what type of poker player Trump is. And if we, you know, if we hand over names of a few students who have participated in

protests or we start firing professors, Trump knows that that strategy works, and then he's going to go after us even harder.

ANDERSON: Leo, it's good to have you. Thank you very much indeed for having the strength to do this interview with me today as well, I appreciate it.

GERDEN: Thank you, Becky.

ANDERSON: It's really important that we get the insight on the ground from the campus. Thank you.

Well, staff at Columbia University and Barnard University say they were shocked this week when they were asked to fill in a survey asking if they

are Jewish or Israeli. The request came via a text message to their personal phones and was sent by the Equal Employment Opportunity

Commission, which is a federal agency. In the message, the commission said the survey was part of a federal investigation into workplace practices in

schools.

Columbia has previously told staff it had received a subpoena from the commission and was complying with government requests for staff's personal

contact information.

Well, coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATALIE WINTERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "THE WAR ROOM": We're all biased, right? We just wear our bias, which I think is a pejorative term to

begin with, on our sleeves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Well, an inside look at the MAGA media covering the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:31:06]

ANDERSON: Welcome back. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson. Time here in the UAE, here in Abu Dhabi, this is our Middle East

programing headquarters, it is 6:30 in the evening.

U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff is in Moscow today meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin for the second time this month. It follows two

nights of deadly Russian attacks on Ukraine. On Thursday, U.S. President Donald Trump expressed frustration at the Russian strikes and urged Putin

to stop.

Well, Pakistan has suspended trade with India after tensions escalate after gunmen killed 26 people in Indian controlled Kashmir. All but one of those

victims were Indian. India is accusing Pakistan of supporting terrorist groups and has closed a key border crossing. Pakistan denies any

involvement.

Consumer sentiment in the United States fell for the fourth straight month, down 8 percent from March. Expectations were driven by perceived risk

around trade policy and uncertainty, and a potential rise in inflation.

Well, since taking office, U.S. President Donald Trump has filled the White House briefing room with media personalities in line with his vision, and

he's tried to push out journalists challenging his policies.

My colleague, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, met with some members of the press corps and asked them their position on covering the administration. This is

fascinating. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: This is my first time in here.

WINTERS: Well, you're only probably with the most controversial White House correspondents.

CASTRONUOVA: I'm actually really good at yelling because I used to be a ring announcer.

WINTERS: We're all biased, right? We just wear our bias, which I think is a pejorative term to begin with, on our sleeves.

BRIAN GLENN, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "REAL AMERICA'S VOICE": I mean, there's no doubt about it. I'm pro-Trump. The questions I ask, in my

opinion, are going to help highlight the good things that he's doing for America.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): These are White House correspondents like you've never seen before. They're part of the Trump administration's push to bring

so-called new media into the White House.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have an individual in our new media seat today.

O'SULLIVAN: Cara Castronuova is White House correspondent for Lindell TV.

MIKE LINDELL, MYPILLOW CEO: Go to mypillow.com.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, that Lindell.

LEAVITT: Boys will be boys, and --

O'SULLIVAN: The new media outlets have full access to the White House briefing room, where they ask questions like this.

CASTRONUOVA: Will you guys also consider releasing the president's fitness plan? He actually looks healthier than ever before. Is he working out with

Bobby Kennedy? And is he eating less McDonald's?

LEAVITT: I can confirm the president is in very good shape.

GLENN: Why don't you wear a suit? Why don't you wear a suit? You're the highest level in this country's office.

O'SULLIVAN: And the characterization that what you were doing, asking Zelenskyy that question that you were trolling.

GLENN: I'm not a troll. I never have been. That was a legitimate question. I just wanted to ask. I didn't mean to, you know, get everyone fired up

like they did.

O'SULLIVAN: Right now, the briefing room, the seats are, you know, big networks up front. You're hoping that that will be rearranged, that outlets

like yourself might have a more prominent seat here?

WINTERS: Definitely. If it were up to me, I'd kick a lot of these outlets out. I view my role here more as sort of reporting on not so much the White

House, but really the media.

O'SULLIVAN: Natalie Winters is White House correspondent for Steve Bannon's show "War Room."

WINTERS: Our bias is not to be sycophants for President Trump. Our bias is for our audience, which is the working class of America, the people who

want to put this country first.

O'SULLIVAN: If Trump messes up, will you guys call it out?

WINTERS: Yes. And we have, I think, time and time again, particularly on the vertical and issue of immigration, we are not for stapling green cards

to diplomas.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): We met the new media correspondents on the day Trump announced tariffs that could upend the world economic order. As other

news outlets reported on the tanking stock market on Bannon TV, they celebrated.

WINTERS: This is the first day where a sitting president put America's working class first. And it's a glorious day to be standing here at the

White House, and to be able to say that and bring that to you.

[10:35:07]

O'SULLIVAN: Have the, quote-unquote, "traditional reporters" that are here been hostile to you at all?

WINTERS: Well, I think they know better than to come after Natalie Winters in the "War Room" posse. But it's the looks, the eye rolls, the

conversations that I overhear.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): They're adjusting to life as part of the White House Press Corps.

These big tents here is where you have CNN, ABC, the networks.

CASTRONUOVA: Right. So --

O'SULLIVAN: And you guys are kind of off to the side here.

CASTRONUOVA: So we're kind of off to the side, which is what a lot of alternate media is doing right now.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): From the protocols.

CASTRONUOVA: There were times at the beginning when we're standing kind of here, not realizing where people shop.

O'SULLIVAN: To the snack selection.

CASTRONUOVA: And this is off topic, the vending machine is full of junk food, and I'm a big MAHA person. I almost ate a beef Slim Jim yesterday. I

was desperate.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you consider yourself a journalist?

WINTERS: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: Tell me --

WINTERS: Seems like you took a little pause to process that.

O'SULLIVAN: No, but, I mean.

GLENN: But I think we all should have a seat at the table. I really do. And if you, the very first week she did the new media, it was Axios and Axios

by no stretch of the imagination is a conservative new media.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But while not all new media here are MAGA media, a lot of them are more cheerleading President Trump than challenging him.

You are a Trump fan, right?

CASTRONUOVA: Yes. I'm definitely a supporter of President Trump.

O'SULLIVAN: So will you be able to hold him to account then and call him out?

CASTRONUOVA: I would, I will be able to hold 100 percent him to account. You know, there's I'm sure things that will happen that I disagree with.

And I have said plenty of times, you know, on the record when I've disagreed with his decisions.

O'SULLIVAN: Is there anything so far in this administration you've disagreed with?

CASTRONUOVA: I'm not going to -- let me put some thought into that for a second. I'm just overwhelmed, like just overwhelmed with how well I

perceive things to be going.

O'SULLIVAN: But to the people, and I'm sure you see this online every single day who say you don't deserve to be here because you're not a real

journalist, what's your response to them?

WINTERS: Well, I'm pretty sure the group of people in there spent, what was it, four years covering for someone who was essentially dead? And that's

being charitable in my description of him, a president by the name of Joe Biden. So to all those people who are apoplectic over having new media

voices, you guys failed. And that's why we're here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON: Well, let's unpack this with veteran journalist Lulu Garcia- Navarro. She's a CNN contributor and host of "The New York Times" opinion podcast, "The Interview," which I love, I have to say. Big fan.

Good to have you, Lulu. Thanks for joining us. I want to pick up where Donie's piece ended. Natalie Winters there from Steve Bannon's "War Room"

saying the old or traditional media, quote, "failed" and that's why we're here, she said, specifically speaking to the coverage of Joe Biden's mental

decline. And you could argue that point. You could argue on that point that she is right. Correct?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think we have to -- there's a huge, as you know, debate happening just across the landscape about what is the

media right now, because all the traditional outlets of which you belong at CNN, to which I belong at "The New York Times," this, we were the

traditional ideas of what journalists are, what they should be. And now we've seen that all scrambled because of the methods of distribution.

Right? Because now people get their news from YouTube, they get them from influencers on TikTok.

And so the traditional idea of what is a journalist is very debatable. I think that's a separate issue to what Donie just did at the White House

because the way people get their news is one issue, but who actually is led into the most important room in the world, arguably, and who gets to cover

this administration is another issue. Are these journalists who are going to be asking questions for the public good, which is what we do, right?

We ask questions that are going to try and, you know, be challenging to expose what the administration is or is not doing to what is propaganda.

And propaganda, as we all know, is someone who literally is there solely to voice the opinions and the perspectives of the administration. And so, of

course, the media has failed. I mean, of course. I mean, I could give you an enormous litany starting from when I covered journalists, started

covering journalism.

I was a war correspondent in Iraq, and there were enormous failures in the mainstream media about covering that war that I think arguably led to a lot

of the dissatisfaction that you saw on the left with the mainstream media to, of course, you know, what people have said about Joe Biden and his

actual capacities while he was in office. So there is no question but writ large, what is it that we're trying to do? We are trying to actually ask

questions for the public that can't have a seat at that table to get them answers that they need to make informed decisions.

[10:40:07]

We're not there to act as a voice for the administration, which I know you know. I'm just explaining.

ANDERSON: Right. But it is that failure of Democrat aligned media to ask Right? But it is that failure of Democrat aligned media to ask the right

questions of a Joe Biden administration that has empowered this MAGA crowd with unprecedented access to the White House. I just wonder what you think

the consequences of that fractured media landscape are now.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, we're seeing the consequences of that fractured media landscape now. We're seeing that it is increasingly difficult to reach

people. It is increasingly difficult to get factual information that is trustworthy to people. We're seeing because of a concerted effort to not

really have very clear delineations as to what is journalism in the public good, and what could be perceived as propaganda, that that has left a lot

of people who don't understand some of these distinctions confused about what they can trust and what they can't trust.

And it's very easy for people, you know, and I understand it, to want to hear ideas that they agree with. And what I always tell people is I am

biased for facts. That is my bias. Of course I have my opinions that are shaped by my worldviews, but I'm always trying to challenge my own

perceptions of the world, and I'm always thinking of what are the questions that I should be asking that other people want to know, regardless of

whether they're conservative or liberal or what hat they're wearing.

What is important for them to understand so that they can, you know, take in the world. And I had an interview with Megyn Kelly and she actually,

she's the former FOX News host who has now become, you know, a sort of leading figure here in the United States. She has a YouTube channel, about

this very issue, about what is a journalist. She was, you know, a sort of seminal person of mainstream journalism. She asked very tough questions of

President Trump and really had to face that head on.

She was vilified by him. And now she has become a cheerleader for him. She endorsed him right before the election, on stage with him. And she views

herself as a journalist. She says, I'm very much a journalist and with very similar sorts of defenses of that. And ultimately, you know, I think there

is and she acknowledged this a real difference of opinion as to what a journalist is. I cannot go and say I endorse a particular leader at any

time. That is not something that I can do. And I have editors who are going to try and make sure that I don't sound like I am partisan in any way.

ANDERSON: Yes.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: There's an entire architecture around this that these people simply don't have.

ANDERSON: Yes. And I listened to that interview. It was really revealing. You know, there is a difference between what you and I do, which is

journalism, and what you might describe as marcomms, marketing and communications, or what you might take a further leap and describe as

propaganda of course. I think there are -- there's also an issue here of an extension of the platforms that media are using these days. And I wonder

whether that also played into, you know, the rupture here, the damage that's been done to Democrat aligned media and why MAGA media and its

ecosystem appears to be so much more robust than the Democrat aligned media.

We saw influencers at the 2024 DNC. Some personalities like Hasan Piker, for example, and Jack Schlossberg breaking through. But it does seem to be

nowhere near on the same level. I'm just thinking about the work that you do and your long form podcast allows for discussion. What MAGA media has

taken advantage of is longer form discussion, which, frankly, many people allow, say, will just allow us for more propaganda. Right? But, I mean,

it's the way you use these platforms I think.

I just wonder, you know, was the Democrat aligned media just too late to the story of new media and its platforms? And is it doing enough to catch

up at this point?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: So there's two questions here, right? There's like us who are the sort of what I term the fact based media where we're trying to give

voices to as many sides as we can and try and give people the information that they need. And then there are right, the MAGA media and then what is

being, you know, they're trying to create here, which is sort of like the Democratic aligned media.

[10:45:06]

They don't have a name for it yet. I'm sure they will eventually. And they were caught flat-footed. And there is a big discussion about what needs to

happen here. And part of that reason was not that they didn't understand the ecosystem, I think, but they didn't have in Joe Biden, a person who was

available to talk about anything at any time. If you think about how the MAGA media ecosystem has grown, it has grown around Donald Trump. This is -

- he is someone who's incredibly savvy with using not only the mainstream media, but his own Truth Social and others.

He has a huge ally in Elon Musk who took over Twitter and has become a massive echo chamber for that. On the Democratic side, they don't have

that. The question, of course, that I have as a fact-based journalist is, is this good for democracy? I mean, is having these partisan, huge partisan

machines where people are going to be fed information and a way to view the world that doesn't challenge their assumptions and might not be fact-based

the best way to sort of help our democracy, which is struggling at the moment?

And so we have seen this, and I know you know this, but you just see all this stuff where, you know, the collapse of local news means that, you

know, people's taxes have gone up because there's no one actually sitting in city hall looking at contracts, et cetera, et cetera. So this has huge

ramifications, practical ramifications, not just for the way people consume news, but for the way we live and even how much money we pay in our taxes.

ANDERSON: Yes, it's really interesting. And let's talk about this again. This five or six minutes wasn't enough. Thanks for joining us.

We're going to take a break. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Michael Anton, a senior State Department official, will lead the U.S. team that's set to hold technical talks with Iran over a new nuclear

deal. And he will join U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff for talks expected to take place in Oman on Saturday.

This is important. CNN's Jennifer Hansler has been covering the story, and she joins us now.

Tell me what we know about these talks and why it is that Michael Anton's introduction into the mix is so significant.

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, tomorrow we expect there to be almost two parallel tracks of talks happening, the

political talks that are going to be led by Steve Witkoff on the U.S. side and the Iranian foreign minister on the Iranian side. And then these

technical talks, where the U.S. side is going to be led by Michael Anton, who's the director of policy planning here at the State Department, and

about 12 working level experts from across the U.S. government, from agencies like State, Treasury, the intel community. And this is where they

are going to try to put the meat on the bones of a potential new deal with Iran.

[10:50:00]

We have not seen these level of -- to working level talks since the 2015 deal was negotiated. So this is a very significant step as they are trying

to negotiate a potential new deal here between the U.S. and Tehran. Now, the U.S. earlier this week sort of clarified its position on Iran's nuclear

program. We had seen some confusion after Steve Witkoff came out and suggested that Iran could continue to enrich uranium up to a certain rate

and then we heard other officials saying there can be no enrichment.

We heard from Secretary of State Marco Rubio earlier this week in an interview saying that they are OK with Iran having a civil nuclear program,

but they would need to import that enriched uranium. They would not be permitted to enrich it themselves. This is, of course, a key rift between

the two sides. Iran has rejected that. They said enrichment for their civil nuclear program is incredibly important.

Now, at the end of the day, of course, is this looming threat of potential military action, as the U.S. and others have said Iran cannot obtain a

nuclear weapon. We have new comments from President Trump earlier today in an interview with "TIME" magazine, where he said he still believes this

diplomatic track can work and that he does not necessarily approve of military action at this time.

However, he did level this warning that he may very well go in -- he may go in very willingly if we can't get a deal. If we don't make a deal, I'll be

leading the pack. This is what he told "TIME" magazine. So there is still this looming threat of potential military action if this diplomatic track

fails -- Becky.

ANDERSON: Always good to have you, Jenny. Thank you very much indeed.

I'm going to take a very short break. We are back, though, in just a couple of minutes' time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Well, thousands of mourners are filing in to pay their respects to Pope Francis and dozens of world leaders making their way to Rome to

attend the funeral on Saturday. Not only a solemn moment to pay tribute to Pope Francis, but the funeral will also bring together a host of leaders

who rarely find themselves in the same country, let alone in the same room.

Well, Chris Lamb is in Rome.

Good to have you, Chris. Thank you. Take us inside who's attending and why it could make for some interesting viewing.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, papal funerals are really like no other when it comes to bringing world leaders together.

Now, at the funeral of John Paul II in 2005, which was the last funeral of a serving Pope, hundreds of world leaders gathered and we are expecting a

similar number at the funeral of Pope Francis.

Now, the arrangement for the world leaders, the seating arrangements are going to be in alphabetical order in the French language. Of course, French

being a traditional language of diplomacy. So President Trump, who is attending the funeral, he won't get a special place. He will be seated in

the normal way according to alphabetical order. The only countries or leaders of countries who will have a pride of place will be Italy and

Argentina, Pope Francis's home country. Also expecting royals to be in attendance and other delegations from countries across the world.

Now, in 2005, the gathering of world leaders did throw up some diplomatic tensions. During the mass, there was a moment when everyone is asked to

make the sign of peace. That is shake hands with the people next to them.

[10:55:02]

And it meant that in 2005, Britain's Prince Charles shook hands with the Zimbabwean dictator Robert Mugabe and the then leaders of Iran and Syria

shook hands with the president of Israel, the countries being sworn enemies. So as well as being a spiritual affair, it's also a diplomatic and

geopolitical one.

ANDERSON: It's brilliant. We look forward to it. It's good to have you, Chris. Your work has been sterling over the past week or so. Thank you from

your colleagues here at CNN.

And here in Abu Dhabi, the Abrahamic family house hosted a memorial mass to honor the late Pope Francis in the congregation. Ambassadors, dignitaries

and followers of various faiths. The Vatican's ambassador to the UAE told mourners Pope Francis was a prophetic leader who brought a message of peace

and hope to the world.

Well, that is it for CONNECT THE WORLD this evening. Stay with CNN. "ONE WORLD" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END