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Israel And Iran Launch New Attacks As Conflict Intensifies; Central Israel's Power Grid Damaged By Latest Iranian Strikes; 224 People Killed In Israeli Strikes, Most Of Them Civilians; World Leaders To Discuss Israel- Iran Conflict; President Herzog Speaks To CNN As Israel And Iran Trade Strikes. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired June 16, 2025 - 10:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:46]
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, this is CONNECT THE WORLD.
ELENI GIOKOS, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Welcome to our second hour of CONNECT THE WORLD from our Middle East programming headquarters. I'm Eleni Giokos,
in for Becky Anderson.
And we begin with breaking news from the region. There are more attacks and a growing death toll as the conflict between Israel and Iran intensifies.
In Israel, officials say civilians are among at least 24 people killed by Iranian strikes. Israel saying Iran has fired 370 ballistic missiles and
hundreds of drones towards the country.
In Iran, more than 200 people are reported dead. Officials there saying most of them are civilians. Israel says it's targeting nuclear military and
fuel sites.
All right, I'm now joined by two friends of the show. We've got CNN Politics Senior Reporter Stephen Collinson back with us this hour. We've
also got Fawaz Gerges, Professor of International Relations at the London School of Economics. Welcome to both of you. And Fawaz, also the author of
The Great Betrayal: The Struggle for Freedom and Democracy in the Middle East. It's a great read, very insightful and so important for us to be
having this conversation right now.
Fawaz, I want to start off with you, and I want to kind of take a step back here, because we've been asking the question, what is Israel's end game?
And that is to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities.
Now, the U.S. Director of the National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, testified before Congress a few months ago that U.S. Intel assesses that
Iran is not building nuclear weapons, nor have they authorized a nuclear weapons program since the suspension in 2003.
Meantime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked about this on Fox last night, and I want you to take a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: The Intel we got and we shared with the United States was absolutely clear. Was absolutely clear that they
were working in a secret plan to weaponize the uranium. They were marching very quickly. They would achieve a test device and possibly an initial
device within months, and certainly less than a year. That was the Intel we shared with the United States. I think we have excellent Intel in Iran. I
think we've proven that, and that is something that we couldn't possibly accept.
Whether it would be six months or 12 months or 13 months, is immaterial. Once they go that route, it's too late.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: Right, so, Fawaz, what do you make of that?
FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, thanks for having me.
First of all, a major, major assessments by U.S. Intelligence services over the past few years, including the past few months, have made it very clear
Iran was not weaponizing its nuclear program. Iran was not militarizing its nuclear program.
Also, the atomic agencies independent have made it very clear there is no evidence whatsoever that Iran was either militarizing or weaponizing its
nuclear program.
You're asking me to take Benjamin Netanyahu's word for granted. Why would I take his word for granted? Millions of Israelis don't take his word for
granted.
Here you have a nuclear armed state Israel. According to American Intelligence, Israel has between 75 and 200 nuclear devices, the only
nuclear armed states in the Middle East unilaterally attacking a state that was engaged in talks with the United States in order to reach an agreement
about its nuclear program. This was not a war of necessity. It's a war of choice.
The overarching strategic aim of Benjamin Netanyahu is not only to destroy the Iranian nuclear program, but to bring about regime change to basically
also divert attention from the catastrophic humanitarian situation in Gaza and other goals as well.
[10:05:03]
GIOKOS: OK, very interesting, because we know the IAEA says that Iran is not complying with its level of nuclear enrichment. You're saying this is a
war of choice. This is about regime change.
So, do you think this is categorically about regime change, and where do you think the United States stands on this? Because over the weekend,
President Trump blocked an order to kill the Ayatollah. Fawaz, that's for you.
GERGES: Oh, first of all, thank you so much. First of all, the Israeli prime minister has been gunning to basically attack Iran since 2010, don't
take my words for granted as a professor, read what Barack Obama and his senior advisors have written in their memoirs.
In fact, the Obama administration was so much concerned in 2015 about Benjamin Netanyahu sabotaging the talks between the United States and the
great powers in Iran that it had to interfere directly to basically exert pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu not to attack Iran in 2015 when the
agreement was signed.
Here you have now what you have is that Benjamin Netanyahu has outplayed and outmaneuvered both Joe Biden and Donald Trump. I mean, what do I know
where Donald Trump stands for? It's temperamental, it's inconsistent, it's contradictory.
So, Benjamin Netanyahu has finally succeeded in outmaneuvering and out playing Donald Trump and basically declared a unilateral war against Iran.
And here, please, I'm not defending the Iranian regime. I have no stake in this. I'm talking as, really, as a -- as an observer, an academic. It's a
unilateral decision by Benjamin Netanyahu to attack a sovereign state since Friday.
GIOKOS: OK, Fawaz and Steven, just stay with me. We've got Nic Robertson who is in Tel Aviv on the ground for us. And Nic, you're describing what
you're seeing right now, the destruction and all very importantly, the missiles that were able to breach the multi-tiered Israeli defense systems.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, Israel says it is destroyed about a third of Iran's missile launch capability, and they say
that overnight, last night, they hit about 20 of those missiles ahead of launch on the ground, and that about 50 missiles were fired in.
But take a look, it doesn't take many, and according to Israeli government officials, it's about one in 10 radio missiles that gets in, get through.
But we're about a hundred yards from the epicenter, the big blast in the middle of Tel Aviv last night.
Look, these stores, they're damaged here. People boarding up these stores here that were caught in the blast. Look down here. You've got heavy lift
cranes and Trunks coming in to repair the buildings here. And in the background there, that hotel with the office complex on the top of it, that
caught in the blast.
But that was not actually the center of where the blast came down. Sanjeev (ph) and I going to walk across the street so you can get a better view of
that. And the missile that came down here, by the way, was not one of Iran's biggest. They have missiles that have perhaps two, 2.5 times the
level of explosives that we use here.
But look at the building down this street. This was a tree lined street, stores down here, apartment buildings here, the whole facade, the whole
front of those apartment buildings ripped off. It would have been worse, we were told by officials, had there not been staircase outside, that took the
brunt of the explosion.
I was talking a little earlier with the main opposition leader here, Yair Lapid. He said his son's apartment was down here. He came to check it out.
He said his granddaughter's bed was showered and littered with glass. Surely, he said, if she'd been in the bed, she would have died. He said,
fortunately, they were somewhere safe.
But I asked him this key question that we've been talking about, that Israel is pushing for, and it's central to the conversation that you're
having right now, is the support that Israel now wants from the United States in order to speed up its war, its conflict with Iran. This is dump
trucks being bought out part of the cleanup.
The key part is Israel believes that it needs the U.S. support to complete the destruction of Iran's nuclear capability. This is what Yair Lapid told
me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: So, what do you say to the U.S. right now and President Trump?
YAIR LAPID, ISRAEL OPPOSITION LEADER: Listen, President Trump will make up his own mind about what's good for America. But we are telling this is not
only a threat for Israel, this is a word for a threat to the entire globe.
ROBERTSON: So, you want them to come in now, the U.S., others?
LAPID: I think it will be in everybody's interest, the region, the world, the United States, and, of course, Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[10:10:04]
ROBERTSON: And what he means by his -- when he says the world's interests here, that if Israel doesn't get that support, doesn't get the more
military muscle to speed up the military operations, therefore, this conflict goes on longer, that the dangers of a longer conflict in the
Middle East escalate. The way to control it and shape it is to bring more force to bear on Iran.
It's obviously far from clear that Israel's allies, principally the United States, and other perhaps European partners that in the past have come to
support Israel. It's far from clear if they will make that move.
But this is the way that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is shaping the message, Israeli politicians are shaping the message. And I think that's
the other big takeaway from Yair Lapid, the principal opposition figure here, but his message is on this issue of Iran, this issue of the missile
strikes on Iran, Iran's counter strikes back here, that issue, there's political unity here.
And right now, that's what we're hearing from people on the streets as well, worried about how long this may last, but believing if it lasts
particularly not too long, that's OK, that's manageable, they think.
GIOKOS: And Nic, of course, if it lasts longer, the question is, is the United States going to get directly involved? Nic Robertson, good to have
you on the ground there. Thank you so much.
Stephen, I want to pose that question to you in terms of, you know, where President Trump stands on this on his way to the G7 he was saying, maybe
they need to fight it out. Maybe there's a deal that is imminent and on the table.
But we know if the United States gets involved, the calculus changes, because it's the U.S. has got the military capability to hit those
centrifuges that are deep underground, if that indeed is the end game.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Yes, there is a deep psychological legacy of the war in Iraq that is especially powerful on
sectors of Donald Trump's most core and loyal supporters. I think it's possible that Trump would not be president, were it not for the fact that
there was 10 years ago when he ran for the first time, there was a real negative impact of the war in Iraq.
Many Americans will not look at this situation and say, well, this is a distinct question about whether the United States can end once and for all
Iran's nuclear program with only capabilities that it has. They will see this as being dragged into yet another war in the Middle East.
Trump, I think, is very conscious of the feelings in his political base. Just last week, he reversed course of a key aspect of his migration
deportation plan because it was causing angst in the heartland, where he gets most of his support because of deportations of workers, of meat
packers and those that work in farms.
So, he's very conscious. He's not a politician that takes risks with his support as volatile as he can be in other areas. The problem here is when
he talks about, well, I think there's a diplomatic solution. The talks with Iran weren't going very well to start with. There's no real sense, I think,
on the Iran issue, as is the case with Ukraine and his earlier attempts, which went nowhere to end the war in Gaza, that the Trump administration
really knows how to make peace anywhere.
And I think you could argue that one conclusion the Iranians might come to is that the lesson of this conflict is, if they have the capability to move
to a nuclear weapon, somehow, why not rush towards it as a way to try and save the regime?
So, none of the choices, I think that Trump is facing a very palatable.
GIOKOS: Yes. I mean, the big question, and we've been asking these questions, you know, how far is Israel willing to go? How far will the
United States allow Israel to go? You know, where will the United States be? Is it going to be drawn into this?
And this is basically counter to what President Trump was talking about, being the peacemaker, being the deal maker, and importantly, trying to keep
oil prices low so that it doesn't impact inflation the United States. This is all counter to that.
You know, I think this is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. Too far, was his point, Stephen, Benjamin Netanyahu, do you believe this
that he unilaterally did this without sort of the big green light from the United States?
COLLINSON: I think he probably calculated that he could do it without paying a price. I think that is something that not just Netanyahu but other
world leaders have worked out in the last few months.
This weekend, for example, was the two week deadline when the president was going to decide on whether to impose tougher sanctions on Russia over
Ukraine. Instead, he was writing on social media about how happy he was that Putin called him to wish him a happy birthday.
[10:15:01]
So, Chinese President Xi Jinping basically has forced Trump to back down now twice on the tariff war. So, I'm sure that Netanyahu calculated that
even if the U.S. would be angered about him taking this window and going ahead, it would -- because of various political conditions and the United
States have no choice but to acquiesce and to eventually come to Israel's defense, as it has done.
So, there is no price for defying Trump, and it looks like the Israelis have calculated they can push ahead whatever the president really wants.
GIOKOS: All right, Stephen Collinson, thank you so much for your time. Fawaz Gerges, we've got you back this hour to give us more analysis. So,
thank you so much for sticking around. We'll catch up with you in a bit.
In the meantime, we've got Nick Paton Walsh joining us from London. And Nick, we've been looking at these civilian death toll numbers. I want you
to give me a sense of what's going on in Iran, and, of course, big impact in the capital of Tehran.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, reports of continued wave, potentially, of strikes in Iran today and this
morning, and growing civilian death toll amongst Iranians, according to the health ministry. Their figure is more general, not updated that regularly,
but the last numbers we heard, over 200 dead, they said 90 percent of whom they say were civilians and over thousand injured.
Information at times sparse images, hard to get about what's happening inside of Iran, but clearly a very aggressive, at times, very pinpointed
and accurate Israeli campaign. At times, though it appears, one that takes civilians lives as well. And here's some of the information we've managed
to glean over the past four days.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALSH (voice over): The screams echo across the ordinary streets of Tehran. The horrors in Iran are harder to find video of, but it's hard to watch
when you do.
A deputy foreign minister posting this damage to his ministry, several civilians injured, he said. Israel's defense minister clarified Monday he
meant no harm to Tehran's residents when he said earlier, the city would burn unless Iran's missiles stop.
But many have seen flames already and are fleeing the capital. Nothing like this before in their lifetimes.
In the western city of Kermanshah, state media posted images of the intensive care unit of a hospital damaged. CNN has reached out to the IDF
for comment, and it's unclear if anyone was hurt.
But numbers Iran's health ministry have given speak of just how wide scale the Israeli onslaught has been, over 200 dead, 90 percent civilians since
Friday, they said.
But each number its own story, many from the youth that the West sees as the hope for Iran's post Ayatollah future. This is Tara Hajmiri (ph)
dancing at the dentist, killed alongside her family, said state media.
Also Nilufar Gallivand (ph), big in gyms and social media, aged 31, killed alongside her parents. And Pania Abbasi (ph), a poet, aged 23, killed with
her parents and brother. Her poem, the extinguished star reads, you and I will come to an end somewhere. The most beautiful poem in the world falls
quiet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALSH (on camera): Now, one of course questions is exactly how long this potentially could indeed sustain, with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu saying that they have control of the skies, principally in the west of Iran, all the way up to the capital Tehran. That provides,
potentially days, maybe weeks, in which the Israeli Air Force can pick parts of Iran's defense infrastructure, its surface to surface missile
launches, its air defenses apart target parts of its military infrastructure as well.
That could go on for many days, and there has clearly, as you saw from those pictures, there have been a civilian toll as a result of some of
those strikes.
But there's also another question, as well as to quite how long Israel can continue to try and fend off these barrages of Iranian ballistic missiles.
Iran's supply of those is not indefinite, but at the same time too, neither is Israel's supply of interceptors to take them down. It does appear in the
last 24, 48, 72 hours that more missiles may potentially have been penetrating Israel's air defenses.
So, many questions certainly at the heart of this, but be in no doubt that there is a deep concern, horror, frankly, on the streets of Tehran at the
moment. Many simply trying to leave the Iranian capital ahead of most likely more intensified strikes in the hours to come.
GIOKOS: Absolutely and of course, because we just don't know what comes next, how long this will last. Nick Payton Walsh, thank you so much.
And coming up, Donald Trump is in Canada today, where he'll meet with other world leaders at the G7 Summit. Can they find some common ground amid
another deadly conflict breaking loose? We'll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:22:15]
GIOKOS: The intensifying conflict between Israel and Iran is adding to the complexity at the G7 summit in Canada, which begins today. Leaders will
also be trying to hash out trade deals with U.S. President Donald Trump ahead of his self-imposed deadline in July.
CNN's Paula Newton is back with us this hour from the Canadian Rockies. Always good to see you.
I mean, honestly, you've got so many distractions now for President Trump, at a time we needed to be laser focused, specifically on his domestic
agenda and how that was going to impact his allies and, of course, other countries around the world. So, give me a sense of just how much this is
now dominating Israel and Iran dominating the agenda.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: It certainly is a focal point. It must be, given the seriousness and the escalation that's gone on in the last few days.
But Eleni, I really want to stress to you that these leaders cannot afford to walk away from this G7 without understanding where Donald Trump stands
on tariffs. If that 90 day deadline that is fast approaching, it's in, I believe, July 9th, that's when the reciprocal tariffs are going to be put
back into place. Every leader at the table will be looking to understand, can a deal be done, even in principle, and can they get some of those
tariffs lifted?
We are awaiting at the top of the hour that bilateral between Canada and the United States. Donald Trump and Prime Minister Mark Carney sitting down
for nearly an hour, and you can bet that will be top of mind for Canada as well.
Put that aside for a moment, Eleni, and obviously, there are a lot of conflicts. It is not just Ukraine, which was already on the table.
Obviously, not just the issue with Gaza, the ongoing situation there that was on the table, but now this intensifying conflict between Israel and
Iran.
I think what Canadian officials do not want to happen is for one issue to bleed into the other. They have a very structured approach to this. In the
coming hours, they want to deal with the global economy first and foremost, and the issues with the G7 economies going forward, and there will be some
conversations adjacent to that where they will deal with Israel and Iran.
A point that I continue to make to you is that there is consensus around the G7 leaders that this needs to deescalate between Iran and Israel. What
there is not consensus about is whether or not Russia should play a role in any mediation. The G6, if you will call them, leaders, do have a consensus
that they should not involve Russia, given their actions in Ukraine. They hope at the table in the coming hours to convince Donald Trump of that as
well.
GIOKOS: Yes, I mean, and honestly, a global economy definitely top of mind. Israel and Iran have the potential to really shake things up, specifically
on the oil markets. Despite the fact that you've got Brent crude coming down a little today, that's still one of the big fundamental risks, because
that's going to feed into the inflation prognosis.
[10:25:11]
Paula, you know, when we go into these G7 meetings, it's a combination of politics as well as economics. What do you think is the priority right now
for leaders? Because Putin could seize this moment of uncertainty, and of course, everyone's looking at their domestic agenda.
NEWTON: Well, I can tell you that one thing that the Canadian officials and Mark Carney have tried to do is link that issue of geopolitical conflict
and risk to economic growth, and the fact that you must have some semblance of de-escalation in all of these issues in order to be able to continue
with the issue of global growth, which is at real risk of slowing down right now, for a variety of factors, some of which you just mentioned.
Again, they want to get some consensus around the table that if they can get that tariff issue off the table and get some kind of deals done with
Donald Trump, that that gives every country a lot more bandwidth.
And I do want to point out that Donald Trump himself, just in his social media posts the last few days, again, telling ICE to back off things like
the agri food industry. That shows that top of mind for him are things like inflation, are things like how the immigration issue will unfortunately
weaken a lot of sectors in the American economy.
He also wants to sit at that table and deal with these economic issues. He understands that's what Americans have top of mind right now as well.
The leaders, the G6 are looking at this and thinking that gives them an opening to try and strengthen the relationship.
I want to point out something that people perhaps would not have predicted a few months ago, Eleni, and that's the fact that these G7 leaders, pretty
much all of them do have a good working relationship with Donald Trump right now, and they will press and lean on that good relationship in the
coming hours.
GIOKOS: All right, Paula Newton, great to have you with us. Thank you so much.
And still ahead, we get the latest after Iranian state media confirmed that two top Iranian Revolutionary Guard Intelligence leaders were among those
killed in Sunday's air strikes on Tehran. We'll give you an update on that story right after this. Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GIOKOS: Welcome back to CONNECT THE WORLD with me Eleni Giokos.
Here are your headlines, police have arrested the man suspected of shooting two Minnesota lawmakers. 57-year-old Vance Boelter was arrested late Sunday
in a wooded area near his home in Green Isle following a nearly two-day manhunt. He's charged with two counts of murder and two counts of attempted
murder.
World leaders are meeting today for the G7 Summit in Canada.
[10:30:03]
The intensifying conflict between Israel and Iran is sure to dominate the agenda, but officials will also have to focus on trade.
President Trump's self-imposed deadline of July 9th is just around the corner, and he's threatening some of his counterparts at the summit with
higher tariffs if they don't reach an agreement before then.
Israel and Iran are reporting new attacks against each other. The conflict between the countries intensifies, and Israel officials say at least 24
people have been killed. More than 200 people are reported dead in Iran. Israel says it's targeting nuclear, military, and fuel sites.
The daily lives of Israelis have been turned upside down, and now, they are once again running to their shelters for covers. CNN's Oren Liebermann,
brings us the story from Central Israel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Glued to the news, Rivi Ginzburg waits for the order she knows is coming. Her husband,
who doesn't want to be on camera, checks his phone for the latest from Israel's home front command. The last two nights have been a race between
the bedroom and the mamad, the Hebrew word for bomb shelter.
This is our shelter, Rivi tells me. You see how we get used to it here. We have mattresses. We came to realize that most of the action is at night.
An afterthought for so long, the room has become a home within a home, cleared out to make room for 10 people and three generations.
We have mattresses so three kids can sleep on them at night, some toys, coloring books. We just don't know, Rivi says.
Red alerts warning of incoming missiles and drones across the country have sent families scrambling to bomb shelters and reaching for their phones.
Everyone checks everyone, she says. Immediately, you're in touch with everyone.
As soon as Israel carried out its first strikes on Iran late Thursday night, Israel's government ordered its citizens to stay near shelters for
safety. But the system has not been perfect, and Iranian ballistic missiles have pierced Israel's missile defenses. The damage and the deaths have
brought the realities of war once again directly into Israel's homes.
We would have preferred that they first sort out the operation in Gaza that's lasted so long and the hostages are not returned. And only then turn
to other fronts. But no one asks us.
In what could be the early days of another war, Ginzburg has tried her best to find moments to laugh with her family.
The situation is far from funny, she says, but you have to keep your sanity. You have to keep your normalcy with the family, you know?
Oren Liebermann, CNN, Central Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GIOKOS: Two top intelligence leaders in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard are among those killed in Iran, and that's according to Iran state affiliate
news agency. intelligence Chief General Mohammad Kazemi and his deputy general Hassan Mahaqiq, were killed on Sunday when an Israeli airstrike hit
Tehran. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps now vows revenge, threatening new missile strikes on Israel's intelligence centers.
I want to bring in senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen, who is following developments for us from Berlin. Fred, great to have you on this.
Now, the loss of the two top IRGC intelligence leaders is a major blow for Iran security apparatus. How does this change the dynamic on the ground and
what does it mean for the Revolutionary Guards' leadership?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly sets the Revolutionary Guard back for a short period of time. But
one of the things that we have seen over the past couple of days, as several, of course, senior leaders from the Revolutionary Guard were killed
by the Israelis, especially in the early stages of their aerial blitz that they have been conducting in Tehran and other areas of Iran, is that many
of them were replaced fairly quickly.
If we look at for head -- for instance, at the head of the IRGC Hossein Salami, he was replaced the very day that he was killed. The same is true
for the chief of the general staff. And certainly, if we look at the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, it is, of course, the elite wing of the
military in Iran, but it certainly is also a very large organization, and certainly, one that has also shown a propensity and a capability to
replenish their ranks when they lose senior commanders.
And that's something that seems to be the case right now. And we look at what the Iranians have sort of been doing since the Israelis started their
operations. At the beginning, it seemed as though they were caught on the back foot. It took them a while to start responding, if we look back at
Friday.
But since then, they have certainly intensified their barrages of missiles that they've been able to fire at the Israelis. Of course, a lot of those
missiles did actually manage to penetrate also, a lot of the air defense layers that the Israelis have, which, of course, are among the most capable
in the world.
So, right now, the Iranians certainly seem to believe that they are back on the right foot, that they are now taking the fight back to the Israelis as
well. At the same time, of course, losing two of the senior commanders in a single day is certainly something that is a setback for the Iranians.
[10:35:03]
But right now, it seems as though they are very much in a mode where they are ready to strike back, where they are striking back. And if we look at
some of the political figures that have been giving statements over the past weekend and also the past couple of hours, a lot of them are saying
that they are going to continue this fight until the Israelis stop firing and stop conducting their missions over Iranian territory.
If we look, for instance, at the President Massoud Pezeshkian, he said that there is no coming back to negotiations, for instance, with the United
States until the Israelis stop their attacks on Iran.
So, right now, it seems as though the Iranians are willing to continue this tit for tat that is going on. Certainly, the losses that they've taken so
far, some of them have been very difficult for them, especially in the Revolutionary Guard itself, but it seems as though they are trying to come
to terms with it. And again, the Revolutionary Guard is a humongous organization with more, well over 100,000 people in it. And a very, very
large senior staff of senior generals and officers that will take the place of those who have been killed by the Israelis Eleni.
GIOKOS: Yes, exactly. I mean. And the loss is not only in terms of military leaders, but also the civilian impacts, the infrastructure that's been
damaged as well, and then nuclear facilities have been struck.
We've been speaking to military analysts, and one of the messaging -- messages is basically, if that the end game for Israel is to actually
dismantle Iran's nuclear capabilities as a whole, they need to hit deep underground those centrifuges. What's the sense of how difficult it is to
get to these sites, because you've seen internally, a lot of agents working from within Iran for targeting of these sites is a big question about
whether the United States is going to get involved. How are you assessing all these conversations?
PLEITGEN: Well, it is very difficult to ascertain, because, of course, all these nuclear facilities are very secretive, also, inside of Iran. The
Israelis have been saying that they have struck devastating blows, as they put it to for instance, the Natanz nuclear enrichment facility, which is
one of the main ones that the Iranians have. However, the International Atomic Energy Agency does not feel that those that the damage there really
goes into the lower layers the basement layers of that facility, which is where a lot of those centrifuges are. A lot of them are several layers
down, obviously, to protect from exactly what's going on right now.
But one of the big areas and installations that many people are looking at is the Fordow nuclear enrichment area, nuclear fuel plant that is in sort
of the north of Iran, and near a place called Qom. That place is actually inside a mountain, and it's very difficult to penetrate. And there are
people who believe that the Israelis simply can't do that with the weapons that they have that they would need the United States with very heavy
bombers throwing very heavy ordinance on that place.
Right now, of course, we know the U.S. does not want to get involved. President Trump has said he doesn't want to get involved. So, it seems as
though it would be very difficult for the Israelis to penetrate an area like that. And at the same time, it is unclear how much the strikes that
they have conducted so far, and it seems as though the strongest ones have really been at that Natanz facility, how much damage those have actually
done strategically to Iran's nuclear program, and how far it would have been set back?
Certainly, the Iranians in the past, they have had nuclear scientists who have been assassinated. They have had viruses -- computer viruses, that
were put into some of the centrifuges, and still their nuclear program has been functioning, and so, they are -- they certainly say that this is not
something that's going to derail their nuclear program. And they also say that they believe that they have a right to continue enrichment, and that
if negotiations between Iran and the United States do continue or pick up again, that they will continue to stand by that right. And they are saying
they're not willing to walk back from that.
But as far as the facilities are concerned, it's almost impossible to say how big the damage is, but certainly, judging by how fortified a place like
the Fordow nuclear enrichment plant as would be very difficult for the Israelis to penetrate that without some sort of ground operationally.
GIOKOS: Yes, I think, you know, Fordow nuclear plants has been definitely top of mind in terms of what it means, and the importance of Fordo for
Iran's nuclear program. So, Fred, great to have you with us. Thank you so much for breaking that down.
We're going to very short break. We've got more news for you right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:43:03]
GIOKOS: All right, welcome back. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD, and of course, we've been watching very closely the strikes and counter strikes
between Israel and Iran, and we're now sitting in day four. We've got Professor Fawaz Gerges, back with us.
We've been analyzing so much of what's been going on. And frankly, we've got more questions than we have answers. I mean, one of the big questions,
Fawaz is, you know, what is Iran's capabilities? How long can they keep this up for, and whether the United States is going to get involved? What
is your assessment of where we are right now, and whether we can pull back from the edge, from the precipice we're on?
GERGES: Well, I mean, I think you're asking, you're asking really big questions. I think Iran faces an existential moment. It was a major
miscalculation on the part of the Iranian leadership. They had known that Israel was planning to attack Iran, and yet, they were caught napping.
Israel was able to kill their top military commanders, more than a dozen of nuclear scientists, targeted the military industrial complex in Iran, its
economic, you know, infrastructure.
Of course, Iran now is fighting back, retaliate. And now, we are seeing that Iran has the capacity to really exact damage on Israel. The question
is, without any kind of intervention -- international intervention, this kind of war could really escalate further, and could really become an all-
out war, regional war.
I mean, Iran has the capacity to destroy the political economy of oil and gas in the region.
(CROSSTALK)
GIOKOS: Yes.
GERGES: So, it has the potential to escalate greatly.
GIOKOS: Yes. OK. So, Fawaz, we -- stick with me, because CNN's Wolf Blitzer just spoke with Israeli President Isaac Herzog, just a short time ago about
the conflict.
[10:45:00]
And Wolf started by asking how the Israelis are coping with the incoming missiles. I want you to take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ISAAC HERZOG, PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL: Well, as you know, all too well, Wolf, we are very resilient and strong nation, but it isn't easy. It's not
simple. It's quite painful, of course, that we are losing dear sisters and brothers of ours from being -- from young children all the way to the age
of 94, including Holocaust survivors, veteran Israelis, Muslims, and Jews. And that's the whole difference.
We are targeting an Iranian nuclear program, which its aim is to threaten the region, the Middle East, the world, and destroy Israel, while they are
simply trying to spray Israel with missiles, our air defense systems are operating well, our home front command, our spirit of the nation, all the
emergency forces.
But it's painful, and we will go on and we shall prevail and overcome, of course.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: As you know, Mr. President, the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, says he launched this preemptive strike
against Iran in order to take out Iran's dual threat of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. Was there specific intelligence, as far as you know,
that Iran was rushing to weaponize its uranium to build nuclear weapons that put -- that led to this unprecedented Israeli strike?
HERZOG: It's a unanimous decision of all of the Israeli defense and security establishment, the Israeli Cabinet, and I will add to that, it's
based on facts. Meaning, information and intelligence of very sensitive sources that was given and presented also to the administration, to the
National Security Council and advisors of President Trump, and by which, on the one hand, there is massive enrichment of the Iranian uranium.
And on the other is moving towards the armament, meaning, the explosive that creates the bomb, and that's -- that leads you to a zero-breakout time
and extremely dangerous. And you remember and recall all too well, Israeli governments consecutively made clear that we must remove all threats of
nuclear capability from any of our enemies. It happened in the past, and it happens now.
BLITZER: The U.S. and Iran were involved in recent months in these negotiations over Tehran's nuclear program. Iran pulled out of the talks
that had been scheduled to take place yesterday in Oman in the wake of Israel's military strikes. Why did Israel have to strike Iran now, given
that the U.S. and Iran were actively engaged in trying to find a peaceful diplomatic solution to Iran's nuclear program?
HERZOG: Because the question is, what do you mean by peaceful diplomatic? Because you can speak peaceful diplomatic, and on the other hand,
underneath, you move forward to the bomb, and that was exactly the situation.
And let's not elude ourselves. For decades, Iran has been spreading havoc, terror, hate, building a massive missile program and a massive nuclear
program, and with its proxies all over the place, simply planning to destroy Israel, and by the way, by that, regaining full control, or gaining
full control of the jihadist regime over the Middle East, and from there on, Europe is the next stage. And one has to realize that we are not
inventing without didn't seek this war. None of us did.
From October 7th onward, we have been fighting these proxies of Iran, and the message of that I'm sending here is clear. What we are doing is
contributing substantially to the defense and security interests of all Western and free world countries and leaders of whom are convening this
morning in Alberta, Canada, and that is why what we are doing is supporting the security interests of these nations, and we should all align together
and be very firm with Israel on this.
Meaning, we support -- to support Israel in its fight against Iran's nuclear ambitions, on the one hand, and of course, get our hostages back
from Gaza as soon as possible so that we can offer a different trajectory in the region.
BLITZER: President Herzog, CNN has learned that President Trump actually rejected an Israeli plan to kill Iran's supreme leader, the Ayatollah Ali
Khamenei. Do you believe it would be a good idea to target the Iranian leader?
HERZOG: I don't want to refer to it as such. You know, I'm the head of state, I'm not the head of the executive branch, and I leave it as such to
those who have taken the oath well -- take all the decisions in this war. But I do want to say that one has to remember that under Ayatollah
Khamenei, the worst terror infrastructure, I would say, a satanic terror infrastructure that's spread all over the world with a clear intention.
[10:50:13]
Why do they have terror cells in Latin America? Why do they kill civilians all over the world by terror activities from Lebanon to Argentina? Why did
they do this throughout the years? And why, for heaven's sake, do they arm a little tribe in Yemen called the Houthis -- 50,000 people in all, with
ballistic missiles and cruise missiles of a major, major world power? Because they have an intention. And that is what we are trying to alert
humankind and the world.
If you want world stability, if you want this war to deescalate, get the nukes out of Tehran's hands and move to peace and not enable them and to
undermine peace, not enable them to derail any future of peace in the region, and they are doing that with this enormous war machine. Rather than
feeding their people, they are spending all of it on havoc, terror, death, and nuclear developments.
BLITZER: The U.S. has helped defend Israel from Iran's attacks over the past four days. But President Trump has repeatedly stressed that the U.S.
was not involved in the strikes against Iran, and he is not committed to joining Israel in the future. Can Israel destroy Iran's nuclear capability
so much of it is deep underground in mountains without direct U.S. involvement?
HERZOG: We are very grateful to President Trump for his support and friendship, and also to other nations who explicitly stressed that Israel
has the full right to defend itself by eradicating and removing the Iranian nuclear program. As per the facts on the ground and the capabilities and
what's up next, I don't really feel that I have the capability of giving you all the details, but I'm quite confident that what we have shown so far
can continue dramatically, and can change the course of how things are also in Iran.
After all, the Iranian people have been oppressed for decades, and we all believe they are fed up and it is their chance to rise and change the
regime. But it's not one of our objectives, per se. Our objective is to remove the Iranian nuclear program, which includes with it a massive
missile program.
BLITZER: How much has Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile capability, Mr. President, been set back with these latest Israeli strikes?
HERZOG: We believe it's been set back in many ways. We will come out with it once we conclude all the details. You know, we have heard and we've
undermined and we demolished a lot of their infrastructure of terror and nuclear capabilities, but there is a lot of work still to be done.
BLITZER: President Isaac Herzog of Israel, thank you so much for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GIOKOS: All right. So, I want to go back now. We've got Professor Fawaz Gerges standing by, and professor you've been listening in on this. What
stood out to you, because President Herzog, specifically said that the objective is to remove nuclear facilities, and their objective is not so
much for regime change, but really fascinating to hear where they stand on this and reiterating the threats that Israel views is imminent.
GERGES: Well, again, what you have heard from the Israeli president is an Israeli propaganda narrative, 100 percent. This war was not a just war. It
must -- it was not a war of necessity. It was a preemptive war, unilateral by a nuclear armed state against a state that does not have nuclear
weapons. He said that Israel has intelligence that Iran was weaponizing its nuclear program. The American intelligence services and the Atomic Energy
officials have made it very clear that Iran was not weaponizing its program. That this is really an attack on Iran based on intentions that the
Iranians intend in the future to build a nuclear weapons.
Let me -- let me put it this way. Israel's attack on Iran is similar to the American attack on Iraq in 2003. Monstrous miscalculation. A final point on
your question here, future historians will look at Israel's declaration of war on Iran as a historical turning point in the sense that Israel's attack
will most likely motivate Iranian leaders to weaponize their nuclear program, because the only credible and effective deterrence that Iranian
leaders now will believe in is a nuclear deterrence.
[10:55:04]
And this is what we call in political science, actions sometimes produce the opposite results that intended consequences.
GIOKOS: And look, there is a big fear, you know, anyone who mentions nuclear capabilities, we just don't know what that brings. And I'm glad you
mentioned Iraq and the fundamental mistake by the U.S. Very quickly, are you hopeful that this could result in diplomatic talks? Very quickly,
Fawaz.
GERGES: Well, absolutely. Absolutely, we want the war to end. But the only way for this war to end is for the intervention of the American president.
He has to exert pressure on Netanyahu to end this war.
Netanyahu will not end this war as long as he has a green light from the American President, and that's why we have to wait and see whether Donald
Trump means what he means by saying he really would like a diplomatic solution between Israel and the United States on the one hand in Iraq.
GIOKOS: Yes. Fawaz Gerges, great to have you with us. Thank you so very much, and thank you for watching. That's it for CONNECT THE WORLD. Stay
with CNN. "ONE WORLD" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
