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Iranian Strikes Hit Israel's High-Rise Buildings in Tel Aviv; Iranian Strike Hits Israeli Hospital; Iranian Capital Mostly Empty; Israel Vows Intensified Strikes on Iranian Targets; Trump Weighs U.S. Involvement in Israel-Iran Conflict; Hospital in Southern Israel Extensively Damaged; Republican Hawks Clash with MAGA Isolationists; Does Day-After Plan for Iran Include Regime Change? Aired 10-11a ET
Aired June 19, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:00]
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Welcome to our second hour of CONNECT THE WORLD from our Middle East programming headquarters in Abu
Dhabi. I'm Becky Anderson. Time here just after 6 pm. It is 5 pm in Tel Aviv and it is 5:30 pm in Tehran.
And we are following the escalating attacks across Israel and Iran overnight. And the sharply escalating rhetoric that go with them. Israel's
defense minister just a short time ago, saying this about the future of Iran's supreme leader ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISRAEL KATZ, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): I want to say that a dictator like Khamenei, who leads a country like Iran and has
engraved on his flag the annihilation of the state of Israel, this terrible goal of destroying Israel cannot continue to exist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, Katz speaking after an Iranian missile hit a hospital in southern Israel overnight, causing extensive damage and leaving several
dozen people with minor injuries. Israel's health minister says Iran crossed a, quote, "red line."
Well, CNN now has the first Western journalists inside Tehran since hostilities broke out almost a week ago. Fred Pleitgen and his team will
bring you a first on CNN, a look at Iran's bombed-out state broadcasting center a little later this hour and a perspective on what is going on on
the ground there.
First, though, this hour, the view from Israel. Officials there saying Iran fired dozens of ballistic missiles at civilian targets in Israel, with
several of them making it through the Iron Dome defense system. Jeremy Diamond is at the scene of a missile strike around Tel Aviv that caused
extensive damage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, we are standing inside the building that was struck by that ballistic missile. And if you
look behind me, I mean, these pictures speak far more than I could possibly describe this destruction.
Everything here has been really torn to shreds by the enormous power of this ballistic missile. You know, these missiles carry hundreds of pounds
of explosives and you can see the kind of damage that they can bring.
The fact that there were only minor injuries as a result of this strike is only really a credit to the bomb shelters that exist here, to people
following the instructions to go into those shelters once those air raid sirens sound.
Because in fact, we're right here at the site, at the very point where that ballistic missile struck. You can see the hole that has been ripped through
the concrete here, the steel bars that have been broken through as this missile struck right here. This is a partially residential and a commercial
building as well.
And the power of the blast extends not just to this building and the building across the street as well but really in the entire, you know, two
block radius or so of here, you can see broken windows all around the area. And that's been similar to what we've seen at other scenes of ballistic
missile strikes here in Israel over the course of the last week.
The shockwave from the blast is so powerful that even buildings that are not directly impacted by shrapnel from the missile or from debris in the
area, ultimately the shockwave of that blast can be felt.
We've talked to people who've been inside of bomb shelters and have felt the power of that blast. And, of course, the result is also broken windows
for several blocks sometimes from the impact site itself. But once again, only minor injuries as a result of this very strike.
And we are monitoring other strikes that have happened across the country as well, including a strike to Soroka Hospital in Be'er Sheva in southern
Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Right. And that report filed just earlier. I do want to get you keep you absolutely up to date.
So Iran, according to Israeli authorities, from a statement that we've just received here on CNN, Iran has now fired more missiles at Israel Thursday.
This is from the Israeli military, adding that defensive systems are operating to intercept the threat.
The public is requested to follow the instructions of the home front command. You would expect to hear that from them.
[10:05:00]
And sirens around sounded in the northern city of Haifa and its surroundings. More on that as we get it. But that statement just in from
the IDF.
CNN's senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen and photojournalist Claudio Otto are the first Western journalists to enter Iran since this
conflict began Friday. Fred and the team visited the site of Iran's state broadcaster, which, of course, was hit by Israeli airstrikes on Monday, hit
while broadcasting live.
He sent this update from the scene of that strike a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're inside the Iranian state broadcasting company, IRIB, which was hit by an Israeli
airstrike a couple of days ago. And you can see the damage is absolutely massive.
I'm standing in the atrium right now but if you look around, this whole area has been completely destroyed. All of the offices, all of the
technology that they have inside here, the broadcast technology, everything has been rendered pretty much useless.
All right, so we're going to go inside the building now. They have told us that we need to be very careful because, obviously, there might still be
unexploded parts of bombs in here or something like that.
What we see here is the actual studio where an Iranian state TV anchor was sitting and reading the news when the strike hit. You can see here that is
an anchor desk right there.
And, of course, when it happened, the anchor was reading the news and then all of a sudden there was a thud. The studio went black. At the beginning
she got up and left but then later apparently came back and finished the newscast and is now being hailed as a champion of Iranian media.
Some of the main bulk of the explosion must have been here, because this place is absolutely charred. And if we look back over there, that actually
seems to be the main part of what was the newsroom with a lot of the desks, computers, printers, phones.
You can see how much heat must have been emitted by the impact and by the explosion. The phones that they had here are molten. Here, also the keys
molten, this screen.
And there's actually someone's lunch still at their desk standing here, which probably they would have been wanting to eat until they had to
evacuate the building. You can see there's a spoon here that's also been melted away by this explosion.
All of this is playing very big here in Iran. There's a lot of public anger that the Israelis attacked this site. And certainly the Iranians are saying
that they condemn this and that there is going to be revenge for this -- Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Tehran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Well, our chief national security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, joining me from London.
I want to circle back to the Israeli defense minister's comments today, that Iran's supreme leader can no longer continue to exist. This is very
serious language coming from Israel Katz.
What do you make of it, Nick?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, we have heard him recently talk -- I remember over the weekend -- how
Tehran will burn. And then he reeled those comments back in a matter of hours later.
But he is echoing, I think, things we've even heard, the commander of the most powerful military in the world, president Donald Trump, hint toward,
saying how he wasn't going to kill Khamenei now. But he put the word (kill!) in that same social media post.
And indeed, Israel's prime minister has made hints toward this quite explicitly as well. But after that hospital strike, I think possibly added
sense of rhetoric here. I mean, look, I don't think it's outside of the capabilities of Israel or, of course, the United States to kill the supreme
leader of Iran, ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
But it's one of those moments where you have to be very sure that you prefer the consequences of a world without the current leader of Iran with
a successor, potentially, who might be more hardline, who might not have the fatwa that Khamenei has put down against building nuclear weapons,
restraining them.
And might decide, if indeed Iran is still capable of this after days of intense targeting of its military infrastructure, to indeed decide to race
for a nuclear weapon. In fact, there are signs already that the supreme leader's son, Mojtaba, may in fact be stepping into some of his roles.
So it's not a case of taking out one man suddenly spells the end of the theocracy that's run Iran for decades now. There is somebody to replace
him. And it's a system which Israel considers to be its enemy, frankly, rather than one singular dictator.
Like, for example, Bashar al-Assad of Syria; when he left, the whole system departed with him. So it's a more complex thing potentially, than simply
ordering the death of one man.
And after that, you have a ton of extremely unexpected, unpredictable consequences. I say potentially a more hardline government that might see a
nuclear weapon if, indeed, that's within their reach right now as something they consider desirous.
But either way, we're now at a point where every single red line, frankly, that Iran could have imagined it had, has pretty much already been crossed.
[10:10:00]
Outside of their supreme leader being assassinated by Israel or, indeed, the United States launching a bunker buster against its Fordow enrichment
project. Israel has free reign over its skies. It's clear it's hitting repeated targets.
Even indeed inactive parts of its nuclear infrastructure like the Arak heavy water plant that could potentially be used to make plutonium, that
could be another path toward a nuclear weapon. That was indeed hit in the last 24 hours.
Israel has said other military targets as well. Evacuation orders accompanying some of this targeting, too. Israel, with full freedom of
movement, it seems; limited danger to it in the skies and likely to continue to have that in the weeks ahead.
They're hitting Iran's missile launchers, possibly as many as two-thirds of those taken out. Now that again diminishes Iran's ability to launch the
ballistic missiles that have been kind of the only threat of counterattack against Israel.
Indeed, we saw some get through last night. But there have been limited volleys in the nights before. So I think Iran significantly diminished
militarily here and now prey to this hardline rhetoric out of Israel.
ANDERSON: It's good to have you, Nick.
My next guest is Prem Kumar, who was senior director for the Middle East and North Africa on President Obama's National Security Council and
previously his director for Israeli and Palestinian affairs.
In those roles he was part of the team that advised the president on global security issues and was on the spot for key meetings.
This picture taken, for example, outside the hotel room where Obama was meeting with Benjamin Netanyahu back in 2013. Well, he now leads the Middle
East and North Africa practice at DGA-Albright Stonebridge Group, where he advises on geopolitical and macroeconomic risk.
And if I asked you whether you saw this coming, you were to tell me you didn't. And you are in good company because, even those I speak to, sources
around this region who were in Washington last week and talking to, you know, members of the administration, those key assets around Donald Trump,
they didn't see this coming, either.
First of all, what do you make of where we are at this point?
PREM KUMAR, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL DIRECTOR FOR ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN AFFAIRS: Well, I think right now we're in a pretty perilous
moment. That is really a turning point about whether the U.S. is going to engage militarily in this conflict with Iran.
And I think that the odds are likelier than not that president Trump will order the strike against the Fordow enrichment facility. But it's also
quite possible that a deal emerges at the 11th hour, because he clearly wants a negotiated agreement with Iran, if that's possible.
ANDERSON: I mean, you you're someone who worked with former President Obama and the Middle East and, very specifically, the JCPOA, the 2015 Iran
nuclear deal. Trump has reviewed the Iran attack plans, we are told, but is holding off for now. A source has made it clear this will be a last second
decision. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I have ideas as to what to do but I haven't made a final. I like to make the final decision one second before it's due,
you know, because things change. I mean, especially with war, things change. With war, it can go from one extreme to the other. Wars -- war is
very bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Since he made those comments, things have changed. A hospital, for example, in southern Israel, in Be'er Sheva, has been bombed. And we've
heard sort of, you know, escalatory rhetoric, for example, from Israel's defense minister, saying the supreme leader, supreme leader cannot be
allowed to exist.
I just wonder whether you think the needle may have changed in the last 24 hours with Donald Trump.
KUMAR: Well, I'm sure the hospital attack does factor into his calculations. But I think what's probably much more important is whether
the Iranians are prepared to do a deal on the terms that Trump could accept.
And the White House had already put forward a proposal a few weeks ago to the Iranians, which they rejected. If it seems like they might be willing
to come back to that deal, I think that would give Trump pause.
ANDERSON: What do you think those terms are?
KUMAR: I think in general terms, it's that Iran, several years from now, wouldn't be able to enrich uranium at all except under a regional
consortium with the UAE and Saudi Arabia, potentially. But that, between now and then, it could continue enriching at 3.67 percent and export its
highly enriched uranium.
ANDERSON: Let's just remind ourselves, UAE has a nuclear civilian -- a civilian nuclear program here; don't enrich uranium here. They signed up to
the 123 agreement with the Obama administration, I believe it was, uranium enriched elsewhere.
Saudis looking for their own civil nuclear program at the moment, not getting the green light from the Americans to be able to enrich locally. So
again, they will have to enrich in the States and get it sent back.
And I guess there's been pressure to a degree on the Trump administration to get the Iranians to get into this consortium, because nobody wants, you
know, nobody wants a nuclear arms race in this region.
[10:15:00]
But everybody wants a civilian nuclear program. So that kind of made sense.
But the red lines changed, didn't they?
Over the past four weeks or so, Donald Trump went from no nuclear bomb to no nuclear enrichment. He could wiggle on that to a degree. But at this
point, nobody's sitting at the table because the talks are off.
KUMAR: Right. But there is still diplomatic activity. I think, you know, there are some reports of an Iranian plane headed to Oman; Steve Witkoff,
apparently, maybe trying to meet the Iranians.
There's also talk of JD Vance potentially joining discussions. So I think there are channels underway, whether they're direct or indirect. And the
idea is to try to feel out whether there is scope for an agreement.
ANDERSON: I'm just wondering, from your perspective -- you're here, you're on business here, just on the ground, you know, for a few days. But you're
here at a very important time.
As you speak to key stakeholders around this region, are you getting this sense of anxiety that any -- there is a real risk of miscalculation and
this conflict, as it stands, widening?
Clearly, Donald Trump's decision will impact that and inform that.
What's your -- what's your feedback?
KUMAR: I think it's, of course, the case that there is concern here about regional escalation and even inadvertent conflict that spills out to the
UAE or Saudi Arabia, because the leadership here and in the rest of the Gulf really value stability. They want to focus on growing their economies,
not getting into conflict with Iran.
But you can never really know how a war ends up. It's much easier to figure out how it begins.
ANDERSON: It's been really interesting and you will know that, over the past decade, since 2015, effectively, the UAE, Saudi, others around this
region have taken an approach, which is how do we approach Iran going forward?
And the approach has changed and it has begun to bear fruit, of course. We've seen the rapprochement between the Saudis and the Iranians and, of
course, the UAE and the Iranians. They are charting a -- navigating a new Middle East.
And that new Middle East is about these economic visions, as you rightly point out. And it is about de-escalation, you know, de-conflicting this
region. Economic integration around this region for the betterment of the Middle East going forward.
This is difficult. These are difficult times. Stand by. Diplomatic editor Nic Robertson on the ground at the site of a hospital attack in Be'er
Sheva. Let's get an update from him now -- Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, the cleanup is going on at the hospital, Becky. And we're going to get moved back from this
location. There are a lot of crews I'm seeing here, working, trying to repair the piping, trying to repair the cabling, trying to stop the water
leaks.
The firefighters have gone. They've doused the fire, put it out. Their crews have swept the building for people who were trapped or might have
been trapped. Other people who were injured maybe and hadn't been spotted. All of that has been done.
Now it's about rebuilding. But I have to say, the strike on this hospital today, the medical director telling me how lucky they were because, on the
fifth floor of the building behind me, it was the cancer urology ward.
He said they had 25 people in beds there yesterday. They taken them to a basement for safety as a precaution. He said if that hadn't have happened,
of course, the casualties here would have been far worse; 40 injured.
It's a major medical center here, a major medical facility. And it's emotive for people and it's emotive for politicians. That's why we've seen,
you know, the foreign minister come here today, various members of the Knesset, the speaker of the Knesset, Ben-Gvir, the hard right national
security minister, has been here.
And the prime minister's been here as well. And I asked him, in the light of the damage that he sees here at the hospital, what is his message to
president Trump?
Well, president Trump considers whether or not to come in and support Israel in what Israel is doing with their strikes against nuclear
facilities in Iran. This is what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: We are committed to destroying the nuclear threat, the threat of nuclear annihilation against
Israel. He gave them the chance to do it through negotiations. They strung him along.
And you don't string along Donald Trump. He knows. He knows the game. And I think that we're both committed to making sure that Iran will not have a
nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: And, of course, that point, clearly, the prime minister trying to connect with president Trump on this idea that Iran is stringing
president Trump along, that this is the time for president Trump to make up his mind.
But they won't say it. Politicians won't say it explicitly.
And I asked him, what happens if the United States doesn't swing in and support you in this campaign against Iran, its nuclear facilities?
[10:20:05]
You don't have all the weapons. Iran's nuclear facilities are very well protected and buried. This could go on for a long time.
And the answer keeps coming back, we will do what we need to do. A day like today really escalates the temperature. And we've seen that, in the words
of the prime minister as well, calling on the Defense Forces to ramp up the pace of their operations in Iran -- Becky.
ANDERSON: Good to have you, Nic.
Prem still with me.
And Prem, what do you make of what you've just heard from the Israeli prime minister there?
KUMAR: Well, I think there is a divergence between the Israeli perspective on what's going on and the American perspective. The Israelis believe that
a military solution is the only solution.
I think, at this point and, I think at some level, they want regime change, frankly, in Iran. Whereas president Trump, I think, has always preferred a
negotiated agreement. And if he can get one that he can defend, I think he would go that route.
ANDERSON: Well, on diplomacy, the U.K. foreign secretary, David Lammy, is in Washington today to meet with the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, ahead
of a meeting tomorrow between what is known as the E3, the U.K., France and Germany. That is in Geneva with the Iranian foreign minister.
And as I understand it, Steve Witkoff will be in that meeting today in the U.S.
How much will these efforts move the needle amid what only seems to be escalating tensions?
I'm just wondering what you see as the E3 role at this point.
KUMAR: Well, I think the Europeans have always played a role as a bridge to Iran between the U.S. and Tehran. They also amplify concerns that
Washington has in terms of Iran's enrichment program, as well as helping to figure out if there is some middle ground.
So this idea of a regional consortium, I think, is one idea that could -- that could bridge the gap. The timeline under which Iran can continue to
enrich until there is a regional consortium is another. And, of course, the language that both sides use to describe whatever agreement might emerge is
going to be crucial.
ANDERSON: Yes, this regional consortium, where together they will have an opportunity to enrich -- and certainly there will be enriched uranium that
can be used for civil nuclear programs -- is a really interesting one. I've heard it talked about a lot during these past few weeks of these talks.
As clearly the U.S. and Iran have got to come to some sort of, you know, some sort of agreement, these are negotiations, after all. It's going to be
really interesting to see where this diplomacy goes, because I think you and I agree.
And certainly from sources I'm speaking to, there is a massive push to get these talks back on track. And there's certainly, as far as I can tell, an
Iranian momentum to do the same. They just want to see the attacks stopping at present and they must stop their own, of course.
It's good to have you. Thank you very much indeed. Do not discount the diplomacy on this. I know it probably doesn't look as if that's the way
that this is headed. But we have to keep that door open.
Still to come, the U.S. national -- let me start that again.
The U.S. Director of National Intelligence is Tulsi Gabbard, of course. And she is reportedly on the outs.
So who has Donald Trump's ear?
A live report next on who he is listening to amid his decisions on Iran.
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ANDERSON: The White House says president Trump hasn't ruled out any options for U.S. action against Iran. But sources say he wants to avoid
getting involved in a drawn-out war.
There are reportedly talks among officials over how U.S. forces could hit nuclear targets in Iran, including the possibility of dropping huge bunker-
busting bombs on the nuclear complex, buried deep underground at Fordow.
Well, CNN, U.S. security correspondent Kylie Atwood joining me now.
It's good to have you, Kylie. Give us a sense of not just where Trump's head is but who the key players are, who are whispering in his ear and he
is listening to it at this point.
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So what we know is that CIA director John Ratcliffe is one of the key players who has been
closely in touch and closely influencing president Trump.
He was critical to that meeting at Camp David that took place in recent weeks, when they really discussed what these plans could look like if the
United States were to actually get involved and support Israel in going after Iran's nuclear sites.
We also know that the CENTCOM commander, Kurilla, has been critical, a very influential player in Trump's inner circle, encouraging him to move
military assets to the region in the case that they would be needed. And Trump has listened to that.
We know the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, who's also serving as the interim national security advisor, is very influential.
All of these players really critical as president Trump is in this space right now, where sources tell us that his primary goal is to avoid getting
drawn into, as you were saying, a prolonged conflict.
He is open to the idea and warming to the idea of potentially going for a U.S. military strike against Iran's nuclear program. But the fallout is
where the real concern lies for president Trump, according to our sources, in that Iran has obviously promised that there would be retaliation.
And there are concerns about what that would look like and what that could turn into in the region. He also, however, is keeping open the possibility
of a diplomatic solution here. His comments in recent days have indicated that he is clearly souring on that actually coming to fruition.
He believes he has given the Iranians quite some time to actually come to a deal and they haven't. But it is critical, as you were discussing, that
this meeting tomorrow with Europeans and the Iranian foreign minister is taking place.
And while all of this is happening, there is a little bit of disagreement within the administration over the intelligence community's assessment of
how close Iran actually was to being able to get a nuclear weapon and where president Trump stands.
I want us to listen to what the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, said on that and then what Trump's response was to that just
moments later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TULSI GABBARD, U.S. DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: The IC continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and supreme leader
Khamenei has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: How close do you personally think that they were to getting one?
Because Tulsi Gabbard --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Very close.
COLLINS: -- Tulsi Gabbard testified in March that the intelligence community said Iran wasn't building a nuclear weapon.
TRUMP: I don't care what she said. I think they were very close to having one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ATWOOD: Now, as you can see there, he certainly does not agree with his Director of National Intelligence on this critical question of where the
U.S.' intelligence assessment was with regard to Iran's progress to getting enough uranium enrichment, to get to a nuclear weapon.
And then, of course, the delivery of that nuclear weapon, this is something we continue to talk to sources about. It also displays that there are
certain people who are closer to the president than others. He does not have the fondest relationship with Tulsi Gabbard, as far as we know. So
that could be playing a role here.
But it's important because the people who are close to Trump and in his ear most frequently often influence his thinking most drastically. And that is
critical, as he has said, just yesterday afternoon, that he has not yet made a decision over whether or not there's going to be a U.S. military
strike against Iran's nuclear program.
ANDERSON: Kylie, thank you so much.
Well, coming up after the break, I'll speak to a member of the Iranian diaspora.
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He's been in close touch with his friends and family still inside Iran. We'll discuss the situation that they are facing up next.
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ANDERSON: Welcome back. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Becky, Anderson, your headlines.
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ANDERSON (voice-over): And Israel's defense minister says Iran's supreme leader can no longer continue to exist. Israel Katz's comments come after
Iranian missiles hit civilian targets in Israel, including a hospital.
Katz also says Israel's military will intensify its attack on Iran to try to destabilize the Iranian regime.
Well, no major damage reported after Israel struck Iran's Arak heavy water reactor during a series of overnight raids. The IDF claims it was an
attempt to prevent its potential use for nuclear weapons development, though Iran has denied that it is building nuclear bombs. So far,
intelligence agencies have yet to find evidence that it is.
Russia's Vladimir Putin and Chinese president Xi Jinping discussed the Israel-Iran conflict in a phone call. China says Xi called on major powers,
especially those with influence on the two sides, to take steps to cool the situation.
The Kremlin says both leaders condemned Israel's attacks on Iran. As that conflict continues to escalate, Iranian civilians describe a sense of shock
and long, fearful nights. Some are fleeing the country.
Here are some Iranians arriving in Turkiye, for example. But it's important to point out that many people just don't have the resources to get out,
even if they wanted to. And some just will just stay.
My next guest is part of the Iranian diaspora. His parents have just managed to get out of Tehran.
He writes, "The continued Israeli attacks across Iran, including in the north, the anticipation of reactions to Iranian retaliations, the high
possibility of U.S. military action and the unclear trajectory of this war have terrorized the entire nation and its diaspora.
"This cannot turn into a forever war. Six nights are six nights too many."
On day seven, Mehran Haghirian is the director of regional initiatives at the Bourse & Bazaar Foundation, a think tank that focuses on economic
development in West Asia. And he joins us now live from Paris.
And I do understand that your parents safely made it out of Tehran, which is great news after your dad spent more than 38 hours, as I understand it,
traveling there to get to your mom so that they could leave together.
What was their route out, just out of interest?
And what are you hearing from relatives and friends on the ground right now?
[10:35:03]
MEHRAN HAGHIRIAN, DIRECTOR, REGIONAL INITIATIVES, BOURSE & BAZAAR FOUNDATION: Hi, Becky, thanks for having me.
The route was quite difficult, because, as you mentioned, my father had to come from an island in the Persian Gulf. And there was no flights to reach
Tehran, so he had to take a boat and then a train from Bandar Abbas. And he was going there while the evacuation orders were in place for Tehran.
But he did try to leave two days ago. But the roads were blocked because of the heavy traffic. And obviously with the fuel shortages, they were
actually told to return back and they did so. But they left again yesterday morning and they managed to reach the north of Iran.
ANDERSON: That's good news.
What else are you hearing on the ground from friends and family?
HAGHIRIAN: Unfortunately, many people, particularly also from my family, are also still in Tehran and they are terrified because the bombardments
are continuing.
And it's not just in Tehran, it's elsewhere as well. And not knowing where this is really going has really terrified everyone.
As you mentioned, there are issues with financial difficulties in trying to figure out where to go, how to go. And aside from rationing of the fuel,
there are others who are imprisoned, others who are in hospitals. And they cannot leave.
ANDERSON: Well, we are hearing these calls from Israel's defense minister to eliminate the ayatollah, the supreme leader, after Donald Trump said
they could kill him but they haven't yet. And I just wonder how that is being received by those that you know and other Iranians on the ground and
in the diaspora.
HAGHIRIAN: I would say the majority of Iranians that I'm seeing online and speaking to are somewhat supportive of the crumbling of the regime. That's,
I don't think, a question. But I don't think anyone is supportive of the killing of civilians and attacking civilian infrastructure. And that's an
issue that many are dealing with at the moment.
But considering the tweet by Donald Trump with regards to what he said about the supreme leader and the unconditional surrender, that he has
basically put as an ultimatum, this really, I think, puts an end to the Islamic Republic as we knew it.
I would explain it in this way; for 36 years from the day the Iran-Iraq War ended, Iranians were really taught to believe that this regime is
invincible, that we would never see again missiles raining down on Tehran or other cities of Iran, for that matter.
And this, in addition to the fact that they did receive an ultimatum from the U.S., their archenemy, and practically there's not much that they can
do about it anymore, I don't think there is time to go public (ph) as the regime as it was can continue anymore.
ANDERSON: And that veneer of invincibility certainly punctured, not just during these past six days. But I mean, you know, over the past months, by
activity by Israel, both inside Israel, in Iran and, of course, with Iranian proxies, like -- the likes of the deeper attacks on Hezbollah.
Look, let's talk about what the feeling is about what might happen next. Reza Pahlavi, the son of the ousted shah, has actually called for an
uprising. He's told Iranians on social media, he's put statements out not to worry about the day after. He's also saying things like this to the BBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REZA PAHLAVI, CROWN PRINCE OF IRAN: I'm not saying that the targeting was meant to hurt the Iranian people. The targeting was meant to be -- to
basically neutralize the regime threat. Clearly, I don't think that it was an intention of the Israeli government to attack Iranian civilians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Can we just be clear about where his support base lies?
You know, just what the scope of his support is, both outside in the diaspora and very specifically inside of Iran?
And can he really have any legitimacy inside if he is defending Israeli actions at all?
HAGHIRIAN: You know, I think he's representing the viewpoints of large portions of the population. To be frank with you, despite the fact that
there is a problem with his legitimacy, with the fact that he wasn't in Iran, there are many political prisoners inside Iran.
There are many paths to democracy that have been laid out in the past years, particularly since 2009 from what I remember. It was my first, let's
say, political uprising that I saw in Iran.
But year after year, there were multiple, let's say, political events that occurred in Iran or on Iran that led to people having hope for a, let's
say, a free Iran. But all of them were crushed one after the other.
[10:40:00]
Whether it was the green movement in 2009, whether it was the hope that that was coming out of the JCPOA, the nuclear agreement, or the 2019
protests that occurred in Iran or, lastly, the 2021 Woman, Life, Freedom protest. All of these were crushed.
But during all of this time, Reza Pahlavi and others in the diaspora were trying to basically shed light on the situation inside Iran. And again,
particularly since 2021, there has been some movement in the diaspora by some leaders, including him, to be able to present a day-after for the
possibility of -- if the regime falls.
And as I said, we are really right now at a point of no return in the context of what's going on in Iran. Anything that was really perceived
about Iran, about its power, about potential U.S. attacks on Iran, again, for the past four decades, we are really at that point that we never
thought we would be. So anything at this moment is really possible.
ANDERSON: Yes. The gloves are certainly off. What happens next is very unclear. It's good to have you. Thank you. I'm glad mom and dad are safe
and we wish the best for the family and friends there in Iran. Thank you.
Well, still to come, the conflict between Israel and Iran causing a major rift between some Republicans. We'll explain why after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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ANDERSON: Well, the Israel-Iran conflict and the possibility of U.S. involvement is sharply dividing president Donald Trump's Republican base.
And if you need proof, look no further than a heated back-and-forth between conservative talk show host Tucker Carlson and the Republican senator Ted
Cruz. Donie O'Sullivan has more on the arguments taking place across the conservative media landscape in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, JOURNALIST: How many people live in Iran, by the way?
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): I don't know the population.
CARLSON: At all?
CRUZ: No, I don't know the population.
CARLSON: You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple?
CRUZ: How many people live in Iran?
CARLSON: Ninety-two million.
CRUZ: OK. Yes.
CARLSON: How could you not know that?
CRUZ: I don't sit around memorizing population tables.
CARLSON: Well, it's kind of relevant, because you're calling for the overthrow of the government.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The world of MAGA is at war over going to war with Iran.
CARLSON: You don't know anything about Iran. So actually, the country --
CRUZ: OK, I am not the Tucker Carlson expert on Iran --
CARLSON: You're a senator who's calling for the overthrow of the
government.
CRUZ: -- who says. You're the one who claims -- you're the one who claims --
CARLSON: And you don't know anything about the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Some of the president's biggest supporters are at odds about whether the U.S. should attack Iran.
STEVE BANNON, PODCASTER-FORMER SENIOR TRUMP ADVISOR: Let's have the American people weigh in, because you're going to see the American people
are 90 percent against forever wars.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): On one side are Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson, both of whom are frequent supporters of Israel but are against war with
Iran and say it could divide Trump's base.
[10:45:00]
BANNON: And I'm telling people, hey, if we get sucked into this war, which inexorably looks like it's going to happen on the combat side, it's going
to not just blow up the coalition, it's also going to thwart what we're doing with the most important thing, which is the deportation of -- of the
illegal alien invaders that are here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Other loyalists, like Charlie Kirk, are not ready to sound the alarm.
CHARLIE KIRK, HOST, "THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW": It's superficially dividing some people into their corners.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
KIRK: But I think if President Trump navigates this with prudence, I don't think this is a permanent fracture. I think all of this can be remedied and
healed, especially if we don't have U.S. troops on the ground and we don't get into a prolonged conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The prospect of war has put much of the MAGA podcast world against Carlson's former employer, FOX News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: It does feel like FOX News is playing -- and I never criticize FOX, because they were so kind to me -- but they are playing a -- like a
central role in the propaganda operation here.
MARK LEVIN, HOST, "LIFE, LIBERTY & LEVIN": They go on with their bumper stickers, forever wars, forever wars. Well, guess what?
The Israelis are going to put an end to this forever war. And so will Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): On FOX News, a slew of guests hoping to get the attention of one very important viewer.
CLAY TRAVIS, FOUNDER, OUTKICK: We have to do it. And I know President Trump probably watching. It takes a lot of bravery.
LEVIN: If this is not a reason to defend ourselves, then give me one. An Islamo-Nazi regime with a nuclear warhead, intercontinental missiles that
have threatened to assassinate the president of the United States. Gee.
And we have morons, fools running around the country. This isn't magna [sic]. This isn't MAGA. This isn't what I voted for. Donald Trump is a
forever war president.
How so?
He's going to do what every president before him. Since Carter didn't have the guts to do. He's going to put an end to this thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: And CNN's Kaitlan Collins asked the president on Wednesday about this rift in the world of MAGA. The president said that Tucker
Carlson actually called him to apologize in recent days about some of the comments that he had made in this very heated debate on U.S. involvement in
Iran -- back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Let's bring in CNN Politics senior reporter Stephen Collinson.
You heard Donie's incredible report there. Certainly that exchange between Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson has gone viral around the world, let me tell
you. Let's listen to Trump on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My supporters are for me, my supporters are America First. They make America great again. My supporters don't want to see Iran have a
nuclear weapon. There is no way that you can allow, whether you have to fight or not, you can allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon because the
entire world will blow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: So it sounds like, regardless of this Republican infighting, Stephen, that he is confident his supporters will stick by him, even if he
does decide to get involved militarily and strike Iran.
Do you think that will bear true?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think it certainly will bear true if this is a short-term engagement that doesn't turn into a
massive quagmire like Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that's the issue there.
But the thing about Trump, so political logic suggests he's taking a risk by going against one of the central underpinnings of his political appeal;
the fact that, unlike previous presidents, he wasn't going to get the United States into wars in the Middle East.
But I think that Trump is different in that he's less a product of his political base than he created that political base. I think he has the
leeway to, as he was saying, define for himself exactly what his political base believes.
If you go to Trump rallies, you travel around the country, there's a -- there's an emotional connection between Trump and his followers. And it's
less an intellectual one and it's less based on issues, I think, at least in the true core of Trump's support.
So it might seem that he's taking a big risk politically. It may not turn out that way. And all of these people in the MAGA world -- the Steve
Bannons, the Tucker Carlsons, Ted Cruz, their appeal and oxygen is peripheral, peripheral around Trump. And it depends on Trump being there so
that they can get a piece of the action.
So eventually I think that, if he does this, his support will close ranks. And there's not going to be some big revolt against Donald Trump unless it
turns out to be an absolute disaster.
ANDERSON: It's always good to have you, Stephen. Thank you. Regular guest on this show, good friend of the show, always with really insightful
thoughts, so -- and if you didn't have those, we wouldn't have you on, mate.
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: So thank you.
A new FOX News poll out today --
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: -- finds that Americans are split on Israel's move to strike Iran; 49 percent approve, 46 percent disapprove.
[10:50:08]
That is worth noting, of course, as Donald Trump clearly is still in the throes of considering this. More on our breaking news after this.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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ANDERSON: With the Israeli defense minister saying that Iran's supreme leader, quote, "can no longer continue to exist," it is worth asking what a
day after the regime in Iran would look like.
Well, I've spoken to sources inside Iran and many in the diaspora, who maintain deep ties to the country. The former Iranian MP, Fatemeh
Haghighatjoo, told me that, even though she wants to see the end of this regime, there may be a worse fate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FATEMEH HAGHIGHATJOO, FORMER IRANIAN MP: I would like to get rid of this regime. I would like to end the regime. I am the opposition, as I am very
engaged in our community, watching especially for the past couple of years. My main concern, which I see the signs, is civil war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Fatemeh Haghighatjoo -- when I was asking her about the potential fall of the regime because of discussion about the regime's end
and a day-after scenario, this week, Reza Pahlavi, the son of Iran's last shah, called for an uprising in Iran to bring about that collapse.
Saying, and I quote him here, "Do not fear the day after the fall of the Islamic Republic. Iran will not descend into civil war or instability. We
have a plan for Iran's future and it's flourishing.
"We are prepared for the first 100 days after the fall, for the transitional period and for the establishment of a national and democratic
government by the Iranian people and for the Iranian people."
Well, for that former Iranian MP, his assurance fell on deaf ears.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAGHIGHATJOO: Halevy and other opposition love Iran. But nobody can just predict and say civil war will not happen, Iran will not collapse and
integrity of Iran will not -- will be intact. But that is my nightmare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, speaking from inside Iran, Hamed Mousavi (ph), associate professor of international relations at the University of Tehran, outlined
what that nightmare might look like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMED MOUSAVI (PH), ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, THE UNIVERSITY OF TEHRAN: Look at the experience of Iraq and Afghanistan.
I mean, there was large-scale military intervention by the U.S. But both countries were unstable for many years. It led to the death of many people.
And, even in the end, I mean, in Afghanistan, the Taliban came back.
In Iraq you have a very weak government, maybe semi-democratic but not fully democratic in any way. I think it's the same situation in Iran. And
perhaps Iran is even more complicated than those two countries. It's much larger. It has a population of 90 million with different ethnicities,
different languages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, friend of this show and author of "The Great Betrayal: The Struggle for Freedom and Democracy in the Middle East," Fawaz Gerges
called Reza Pahlavi "delusional" and said, "we might be getting ahead of ourselves."
[10:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAWAZ GERGES, DIR. MIDDLE EAST CENTER, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Your question implies that somehow Iran is on the tip of losing its institutions
and its regime. There is no alternative opposition inside Iran and there is no alternative opposition outside Iran.
Let me -- let me just contextualize the question, if you allow me a bit. There is considerable opposition inside Iran to the clerics in Tehran.
Considerable millions of Iranians, especially young men and women, have protested because of the state's intrusion into their daily lives.
Millions of Iranians have not been allowed to have a free life, to breathe. They wanted to breathe. But there is a huge difference between opposition,
domestic opposition to the regime, and basically Iranians listening to Benjamin Netanyahu, called to instigate a civil war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, that is it for CONNECT THE WORLD today. Day seven of this conflict. Stay with CNN. "ONE WORLD" is up.
END
