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The Chris Wallace Show

College And University Presidents Begin Calling In Law Enforcement To End Pro-Palestinian Campus Protests And Encampments; Judge Fines Donald Trump For Violating Gag Order For Hush Money Criminal Trial; Donald Trump Gives Interview In Which He Says During His Possible Second Term States May Monitor Pregnant Women To Prevent Abortions; Democrats Plan To Protect Republican Speaker Mike Johnson Against Possible Motion To Vacate Filed by Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene; Business Trend Called "Dry Promotion" Sees Employees Receive New Job Title and More Responsibility But Not More Pay; "Star Wars" Fans Celebrate May the Fourth; South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem Criticized for Killing Her Dog As She Describes in Her Forthcoming Memoirs. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired May 04, 2024 - 10:00   ET



MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: These people are anti-American nuts not knowing the facts." I'm not going to embrace that. I respect their right for peaceful demonstrations, I really do. I think when they become occupiers of a campus, and I said this here last Saturday, and they intrude on the university to get the university's business done, like that live footage we just showed from Ann Arbor. At a moment that you've crossed the threshold, and you don't allow classes to take place and finals to exist and your other students and faculty members to do what they're there to do, which is to get an education, then I think you've gone too far.

All right, keep voting on today's poll question. Thank you for watching. I'll see you next week.

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again and welcome. It's time to break down the big stories with some smart people.

Today we're asking with campus protests getting more violent, are college presidents right or wrong to call in the cops?

Then judging the judge, we'll discuss if Donald Trump should get jail time if he keeps violating his gag order.

And telling too much, the story of a rising star and possible Trump running mate and a dog named Cricket.

The panel is here and ready to go, so sit back, relax, and let's talk about it.

Up first, the universities strike back. After weeks of protests, college administrators decided enough is enough, calling in police to clear out pro-Palestinian demonstrators, just as Republican lawmakers double down, making the protests and even bigger issue. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: At UCLA, police in riot gear firing flashbangs and rubber bullets. At Columbia, NYPD officers storming buildings occupied by demonstrators.


WALLACE: And at the University of Wisconsin, police wrestling protesters to the ground.

Across the U.S. more than 2,000 people arrested on dozens of campuses in just the last two weeks. Columbia's president saying her university had been patient, but this week's escalation pushed the school to the brink. Student protesters, though, saying they're not backing down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This only added more fuel to the movement.

WALLACE: Republicans continue to hammer the issue, pushing an antisemitism bill through the House this week and calling on more college presidents to appear before Congress later this month, while threatening to cut federal funding for some schools.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) HOUSE SPEAKER: We will hold these universities accountable for their failure to protect Jewish students on campus.


WALLACE: Here with me today, podcaster and author Kara Swisher, Reihan Salam, president of the Manhattan Institute and "National Review" contributing editor, "New York Times" journalist and host of the new podcast "The Interview," Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and author and conservative pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson. Welcome back everyone, especially Kristen, who took a little time off for this, to have a beautiful baby girl, Sophie, who will be going to college soon enough.


WALLACE: All right, the big story on the campuses this week was the escalation on both sides, both the protesters and the administrators. Reihan, when is the right time for administrators to call in the cops?

REIHAN SALAM, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": The right time is when the lawbreaking starts. What I find really appalling about the response of many university leaders is this -- if you had said swiftly we're going to suspend you, then we're going to expel you, then we're going to bring in the police, that would have been much better sequence of events for this reason -- you're bringing police into what can be volatile situation. Police were doing their best to keep the situation under control. But had the universities just said and had the backbone and courage to say, this is unacceptable behavior, you're expelled. These are ambitious, careerist little punks who at the first threat of expulsion, many of them would have backed down.

WALLACE: Kara, where do you draw the line on these little punks? When is the right time to call in the cops?

KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "PIVOT" AND "ON": I would never call them little punks. They're protesters, and some of them are protesting within their rights with free speech. They should be able to do this, and especially college students.

I think it's never a good time to call the cops, but when certainly there's violence, you have to deal with it, and they should have dealt with it beforehand. I think the problem is, some colleges it's working out well. At Brown, for example, they managed to calm everything down. At other universities --

WALLACE: And they've agreed to talk and discuss the issue of divestment.

SWISHER: They've agreed to talk, to hold a discussion. The last thing should be to bring in cops because you never know what's going to happen, and it creates a really escalating situation.

SALAM: The sooner you bring them in --


SALAM: Look, if you're looking at red states, look at what happened in Florida and look at what happened in Texas, you were able to bring this under control swiftly. Once you start engaging in illegal behavior, you need to bring it under control. I agree that there are things that universities could have done to nip this in the bud before you have to bring in law enforcement. But it is essential to maintain public order.


SWISHER: Public order. These are private universities, first of all. They do have their own police forces, too. The MIT head has done a lot of stuff. She said in advance exactly what would happen and laid it out for students. They've had much less of a problem. If you can engage them in dialogue, that's the very first thing you do.

SALAM: Of course.

SWISHER: When violence does start, you do bring in police. But you certainly don't want it -- you want it to be the absolute last --

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, "NEW YORK TIMES" JOURNALIST: Let us remind -- let us remind ourselves how this started, which was that the House called the president of Columbia to testify.

WALLACE: Let me just, let me just --


WALLACE: This brings us right to our point, which is that Republicans are making us a big issue. And the protesters at Columbia, to your point, started their encampment the same day the university's president testified before a House committee. Take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is an anti-Jewish protest. You agree with that.

MINOUCHE SHAFIK, PRESIDENT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Congresswoman, anti- Jewish things were said at protests, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for changing your testimony.


WALLACE: Lulu, sorry for interrupting, but have the Republicans, particularly in the House, stoked the situation and created some of the protesting?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes. I think we've seen that in the way that this has all unfurled. We see that the president of Columbia was called to testify. They actually then put this encampment there as a method of pressure. And then what we've seen is politics just absolutely be injected into the situation, with people grandstanding, coming onto campuses, calling for the National Guard, of all things, to be unleashed on these students.

And at the end of the day, this is an anti-war protest. I mean, what has been discussed -- it is very easy.

WALLACE: It has been more than that. So the antisemitic --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No but wait a second. They are there to protest. It is an anti-war protest. They are people who have clearly said antisemitic things. And it is easy to condemn antisemitism. We all condemn antisemitism. It is a horrific thing. But this is an anti-war protest.

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, FOUNDING PARTNER, ECHELON INSIGHTS: I would feel like it's more credible to think of it as an anti-war protest if there were any people at these protests calling for the release of the hostages, which would be one of the first things that would be necessary for this to be an end to the war.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: There are students there calling for that for sure.

WALLACE: Let her --

ANDERSON: I disagree that this is something that Republicans have stoked. Certainly, Republicans have put a spotlight on it. Attention is going to make this grow. People see it at one campus, they want to do it at other places.

WALLACE: Don't you think by calling in the presidents and leading to -- I'm not saying the presidents were innocent victims here. They're getting fired. One, that one that they have inflamed in this situation. And two, that it is a good --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And what is Mike Johnson doing there. Why? Why?

ANDERSON: So I don't think that this is a Republican caused problem. I think that it is fully within the rights --


WALLACE: Let her finish.

ANDERSON: So for instance, you have a lot of these universities that took it very seriously, the idea that speech was violence over the last decade. If you had a conservative speaker come to campus and students felt unsafe, there was real pressure from university administration to maybe not allow that speech. Now suddenly, violence is speech, instead of speech being violence. And it's fully within the rights of the universities to crack down on this.

WALLACE: We could keep going on this, but I do want to bring up one other subject, which is President Biden, who didn't talk about the protests for 10 days while the situation escalated. Finally, on Thursday, he spoke for three minutes and 22 seconds.


JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me be clear. Peaceful protest in America -- violent protest is not protected. Peaceful protest is.


WALLACE: Reihan, will Biden's words make any difference either in terms of calming the situation on campus or helping himself out politically?

SALAM: Absolutely not. I think you've seen a level of cowardice and vacillation from the white that is incredibly discouraging to many Democratic voters, many folks who are deeply invested in these institutions.

If you want to talk about where this started, Chris, you've had brewing for 30 plus years on a number of university campuses so called Middle East studies departments that are in fact political, that are training political activists and political agitators, that are not engaged in intellectual inquiry, but are in fact pure ideology.

SWISHER: It's called education, Reihan.

SALAM: I'm sorry, it's not called education where you're not actually offering contrasting perspectives.

SWISHER: Are we going to say thing about Bob Jones -- are we going to say thing about Bob Jones University. Are we going to say -- it's ridiculous. These are educating students --

SALAM: Absolutely. When Columbia accepts that it is Bob Jones University for Rashid Khalidi and disciples of Edward Said and nothing else, then that's great.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I sent to Columbia.

SALAM: If the acknowledge that, acknowledge what you're doing. You're not a truth-seeking institution.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: This is the problem, this is the problem that we're having here, which is that you have something where you have students who are upset about the war in Gaza, and then all of a sudden you're talking about education in the system. There's all this talking about DEI, you're talking about Hamas supporters.


And what ends up happening is this toxic brew of politics in something that is actually very localized --

SALAM: I agree that we're dealing with a toxic brew. I agree that we're dealing with a toxic brew.

WALLACE: I think we can all agree it's a toxic brew, and we'll leave it there for the moment.

Donald Trump gave a big interview this week, laying out his second term agenda, including letting the states prosecute women who have abortions. We'll break down what else he has in mind.

Then Democrats and Republicans can't agree on pretty much anything, but there's one person who is making a move both parties disagree with.

And later, show me the money, the new business trend that's all title, no reward.

You're all about dry promotion, aren't you?


SWISHER: And they tried, they tried.



WALLACE: Donald Trump making the most of his free time this week, holding rallies in the battleground states of Michigan and Wisconsin. Between those events and a new interview, we've got a much clearer look at what to expect in a second Trump term.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I have come here today from New York City where I'm being forced to sit for days on end in a kangaroo courtroom.

WALLACE: Donald Trump during a one-day break from his hush money trial on the campaign trail. The former president delivering a mix of his usual grievances, and some campaign promises.

TRUMP: We're going to have a great country very soon.

WALLACE: But in a new "Time" magazine interview, Trump lays out in detail what to expect in a second term.

TRUMP: I will seal the border.

WALLACE: No choice but to have mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, firing civil servants he calls bad people, and saying states can choose to monitor pregnant women and prosecute those who have an abortion.

TRUMP: Some people will be happy. Some people won't be quite as happy.

WALLACE: As for the election itself, Trump told a Milwaukee newspaper he'd accept the results if everything is honest, but if not, you have to fight for the right of the country.

His plans giving the Biden campaign fresh fodder, with Vice President Harris issuing this warning.

KAMALA HARRIS, (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And as much harm as he has already caused, a second Trump term would be even worse.


WALLACE: Kristen, from listening to what Trump said in interviews and on the stump this week, what are the best and worst parts of his plans for a second term?

ANDERSON: Well, I think it sounds like if you liked the first Trump term, you're going to get a much larger helping of it the second time around. He sounds like, if in the first term he tested the guardrails, this time he intends to break through them.

What I wonder, this could either be best or worst, is what types of people will he bring to work in his administration? He has suggested that he thinks last time he brought in some people who were too weak. They didn't necessarily let him do everything he wanted to do. At the same time, he knows he needs to appeal to the middle. He's got smart advisors around him. He's brought in a very professional campaign team around him. So that could suggest that maybe he's not just going to bring in a cast of weirdo characters from conservative internet land. Maybe he does try to bring in, quote-unquote, professional Republicans. But I still think that's a big open question.

WALLACE: Kara --


WALLACE: What are the -- what are the best and worst parts of what he said, particularly in terms of policy?

SWISHER: The best part, he didn't mention the gulags that he's going to create, but that's probably on the list. There was no good parts of this. This was just astonishing. And one of the things that he does is he does say what he's going to do. And many, the last couple of years ago when he was -- when he was president, when he was saying he was going to deal with immigrants and migrants and he was going to have the ban he had, no one believed him. But I did. I kind of believe everything he said he's going to try he's going to try to do. Whether he's competent at it is another issue.

But the whole thing is terrifying for a lot of people, and some people aren't going to like it because a lot of it feels like violations of civil rights that we have.

WALLACE: Reihan, that gets to the real point. From what he laid out in his plans, and there was a lot of policy, does it help or hurt his chances for getting elected again?

SALAM: I think it likely helps when he's talking about issues like combating urban violence, when he's talking about reining in the administrative state. I think these are things that actually resonate with a large number of voters. The question, as Kristen was getting at earlier on, is whether or not he's going to have a coterie of serious, capable people around him. And my sense is that over the past few years, he and his allies have been trying to do exactly that, really identify people who can follow through.

WALLACE: But what about things like saying he's OK, he's not going to do it himself, but if a state wants to monitor pregnant women and prosecute them if they get an abortion?

SALAM: Well, this is basically a reflection of his taking the stance that I'm going to be an arch federalist on this issue. I'm really going to let the states do what they will. That may not wind up being the best political move, but I think that he's aiming to be consistent with that position. And it's going to exact a cost.

WALLACE: Lulu, I know there's a lot that you don't like here, but if you believe the polls, when Trump says I'm going to crack down on illegal immigration, I'm going to crack down on crime in the cities, those are popping get our issues and issues on which President Biden polls poorly.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That is true. I, first of all, thought that this was a really good interview. I think talking to him about what he's planning at least allows people to judge it on the merits, right?


And so no one can say that they're surprised when, if he's elected, he actually does these things. I mean, to be honest, when you look at the plan here, I actually think that they will have a very professional team. That is the thing that everyone around his orbit has said was lacking the last time. And not only do they want a professional team, but they want people who are loyalists, who are really this time going to enact what he says. And this is what the purge is about, this is what getting rid, quote-unquote, of the administrative state is about. It's talked about in these grandiose policy terms, but really it's about instituting loyalists that will enact some of the more questionable parts of --

WALLACE: And does that reassure you or does that horrify you? GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, what I think is important here is that he is

talking about what it is that he's going to do. And I don't necessarily believe that that is going to be positive to a lot of people. Yes, obviously, everyone is concerned about issues on the border. Yes, people are concerned about the lowering crime in cities and the crime that remains.

But at the same time, when you hear that what he wants to do is have these massive camps, put people in, rip families apart, I mean, I don't know. If people are paying attention, it might not be something that they consider very America.

ANDERSON: I think of the things that he talked about, the biggest political risks for him, one, is the comments on abortion. I still think that this is a huge political landmine for Republicans. Trump is trying to navigate it, but I don't think he's navigating it very well.

But second is this question of law and order. And I'm going to order the attorney general to prosecute people or I'm going to fire him, those sorts of things. I do think that with your centrist kind of voters, that sends a signal, I'm going to be a chaos agent, not an order agent. And that's --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And vengeance. I mean, he's talked about vengeance that it really calls to question what he's really up to.

WALLACE: Meanwhile, back at the hush money trial, the judge fined him $9,000 for nine violations of the gag order and indicated that he might conceivably get tougher. Kara, what do you think about even the possibility of, as the judge raised, confining Trump?

SWISHER: Yes. Put him in the cooler for a couple hours, not overnight, just like one hour, and then he does it again, two hours.

WALLACE: Former President of the United States?

SWISHER: Yes, if he does it. He has to follow rules like anyone else. What is he, a king?

WALLACE: Are you going to send him to Rikers Island?

SWISHER: No. Just have a cooler there. We can have a special --

WALLACE: A cooler, I love this.

SWISHER: A special presidential cooler, whatever. You just put them in there for a couple of hours.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't think you should put them in the clink, because now we're talking about coolers. I think we should talk about the clink. I don't know that --

SWISHER: Just for a couple hours. Why not?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, I think this he is a former president. I think that this is -- I understand that he's already on trial. I just think that this is, it would be a step too far.

WALLACE: It certainly would inflame a very inflammatory situation.

One of Donald Trump's biggest fans on Capitol Hill, far-right firebrand Marjorie Taylor Greene, is defying the former president in a move that's getting Republicans and Democrats to agree on something.

Also ahead, the rising governor whose star may now be fading for sharing much too much in a new book.



WALLACE: Now to an unprecedented situation in the House. Democrats, yes, Democrats plan to protect Republican Speaker Mike Johnson this coming week by voting to block a move to oust him. That decision essentially dooms Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's motion to vacate, which she plans to bring for a vote this week.


REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, (R-GA): Mike Johnson is not capable of that job. He has proven it over and over again.

Now, we have Hakeem Jefferies and the Democrats coming out embracing Mike Johnson with a warm hug, and a big wet, sloppy kiss.


WALLACE: Greene is getting a ton of pushback, especially from fellow Republicans who are getting tired of her antics.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is all about wanting more attention and not producing actual results.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ninety-eight percent of us find it disgusting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a distraction, and I think it's a mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Retire the chaos, retire the anarchy.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, (R-GA): I really don't give a rat's ass what anybody up here says about what I'm doing.


WALLACE: Kara, are Marjorie Taylor Greene's 15 minutes over?

SWISHER: Oh, now. But oh, marge (ph), she really has overplayed her hand. She's a bully and she's a braggart, and it didn't work this time. Sometimes it does work for her. But now, when I find myself agreeing with four guys that look exactly the same, it's kind of unusual. But she's overplayed her hand badly here. Badly, actually. WALLACE: But she's not out of the game?

SWISHER: No. Are you kidding? She's a noisy internet star, so --

WALLACE: Reihan, she's not only going, Greene, against the vast majority of her colleagues in the House Republican conference, she's also going against Donald Trump, who has decided that he is going to back Mike Johnson and doesn't want to see him thrown out. How does that affect her clout on the Hill, this latest gambit of hers?

SALAM: I think that Kara is right. She's fundamentally an incredibly talented person who has a real eye for the cameras. She knows how to create a spectacle. But I think she's going to be pretty marginal when it comes to actually the decisions that are going be made by the Republican conference.


What I'm honestly struck by is the decision on the part of the Democratic leadership. You had a few Democratic members who were saying, hey, we're willing to go out there and support Mike Johnson. But the fact the leadership did this to me is very telling about the fact that Republicans feel very vulnerable about the threat of chaos within their conference. But I kind of think that Democrats do to. What happens if Democrats' seize the speakership right now at a time when that party is very divided about the war in Israel and many other contentious issues?

WALLACE: They're not going to seize the speakership. I mean, the point is --

SALAM: They're not.

WALLACE: -- the Democrats are basically saying we're going to block this motion to vacate. We're going to keep Mike Johnson in there. And one of the reasons that they're going to do this is because Johnson has actually gone to them for help on some more moderate bipartisan measures, for instance, foreign aid to Ukraine.

Here is Hakeem Jefferies, the Democratic leader.


REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D-NY) HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We need more common sense in Washington D.C. and less chaos. The Republicans have done nothing but deliver chaos.


WALLACE: Lulu, are Democrats right to bail out Johnson, to keep the Republican speaker in charge?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think they're actually a little divided on this. And part of that is because you have seen Speaker Johnson take actions that actually make Democrats look bad, forcing the hand of like an antisemitism bill, for example, and other things. And so you've heard some rumbling within the conference about whether they should really be doing this. But I do think at this particular moment we are right before a very contentious election, that they are probably were going to take Speaker Johnson's hand and lead them to the other side of this.

WALLACE: Kristen, just as a matter -- I'm a little surprised by this, because just as a matter of pure politics, the Democrats wouldn't get blamed for this. Why not let the Republicans kick out Johnson, they just stay in and vote for Hakeem Jefferies. Let Marjorie Taylor Greene and her band of merry men kicked out Johnson and have more chaos. Doesn't -- wouldn't that help them in November?

ANDERSON: It would politically help them, but I, frankly, think that they don't want to sit through 15 more useless rounds of, let's throw another name in the hat. They don't get enough votes to --

WALLACE: As Lulu said, are Democrats --

ANDERSON: So it's Republicans who look bad, but it's Democrats who have to sit there. They can't be back in their districts campaigning. I think it's bad for any incumbent to be stuck in this kind of situation going through this futile exercise. Frankly, Congress doesn't do that much as you approach an election anyways. So this late in the game, I kind of understand why Democrats are like, please, please, do not put --

WALLACE: But there is another player in this whole game, and that is Speaker Johnson, who apparently is going to be able to keep his job with the help of Democrats. But he is emphasizing that he has not going soft on his ideology.


REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) HOUSE SPEAKER: The speaker of the House serves the whole body. I am a conservative Republican, a lifelong conservative Republican. That's what my philosophy is. That's what my record is, and will continue to govern on those principles.


WALLACE: Reihan, can Johnson run the House when he's basically there by the grace of the Democrats?

SALAM: I think he can. And I'll say this, Chris. You care a lot about accountability on this show. I think there are a lot of folks who really doubted Mike Johnson. Here's a backbencher, here's a nobody, here's a hard-core ideologue. And yet he's been incredibly deft. He's put in the work. He's built real relationships. He's engendered a lot of trust. And I've got to say, he really has been up to the job in a way that very few people expected. So kudos to him.

SWISHER: Oh, my, he wants to govern, just like everybody else does except for the Marjorie Taylor Greenes. He wants to actually govern, which is what they -- you cannot be flame-throwers and everything else. He wants to govern.

WALLACE: Do you think this is a sustainable, a Republican speaker who basically is governing because --

SWISHER: Not with these margins. There's got to be a better margin situation, I think.

SALAM: This is back to the future. I think this might be what we're going to see more of, because basically both of the parties are divided in interesting and complicated ways. And I think that you are seeing a lot more cross-partisan, trans-partisan collaboration. So in a way, I think that this kind of partnership, believe it or not, in the Trump-Biden era is something we're going to see more of.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And I think Reihan is right. I mean, I think Speaker Johnson has actually surprised people and how deft he's been. And one of the things that Democrats do say a lot is that they trust him to keep his word. They might not like his policies. They might not like what he stands for, but they do trust him to keep his word.

WALLACE: You know what I'm struck by, not only has Mike Johnson brought the House Democrats and Republicans together, he has brought together this panel. I've never heard you all agree on something.


SWISHER: I don't like him that much.

WALLACE: There you go.

Democrats helping Republicans probably not a trend that will continue, but up next, two troubling trends are catching fire involving your time and your money. We'll explain.



WALLACE: Once again, it's time to get our group's yea or nay on some big talkers. Up first, you may need more popcorn if you plan to catch a flick this weekend. According to a new survey, moviegoers say the ideal length for a film is 92 minutes, which just happens to be the runtime for "Kung Fu Panda 4." But the average length of the 10 highest grossing movies last year was 143 minutes, almost two-and-a- half hours. That's 30 minutes longer than the average just four years ago.


And "Oppenheimer," which won the Oscar for best picture, clocked in at three hours and nine seconds. I remember every second of that three hours.

Kara, yay or nay, are movies getting to long?

SWISHER: No. And as to the top grossing ones, it seems that's --

WALLACE: No, I'm talking about for you.

SWISHER: For me? Oh, I text during movies. I don't watch them. I'm still watching "Oppenheimer." I'm still watching it.

ANDERSON: Do you have your phone out in the theater?

SWISHER: Oh, yes.

WALLACE: You're that person.

SWISHER: That's how I know it's a good movie. If it's a no text movie, it's a good movie. That's how I judge it.

WALLACE: What about the fact that they tell you to turn off your phone?

SWISHER: They don't really.

WALLACE: They don't care?

Reihan, are you OK sitting in a movie theater for two-and-a-half or three hours? Certainly not next to text crazy Kara.

SALAM: Absolutely not. So I'm a huge movie buff. I see fewer of them now that I have little kids, but I'll say this. I think the studio executives are saying we need to get people out of their houses, and we want to give them a real experience, give them their money's worth, throw more hours at them. And I think they're getting it exactly wrong. If you can do that during a little break and you could do some other things before and after, that's way, way better. Keep it short.


WALLACE: Yes, I will remind you of that sometime.


WALLACE: Next, congratulations, you're getting promoted, but with a big catch. There's a new business trend called "dry promotion" where employees got a new job title and more responsibility -- I'm serious here -- but no more money. Company's say with retention challenges and tight budgets, it's a cost-free way to keep workers. Kristen, you run a business. Are you yea or nay, on dry promotions, big title, but no increase in the paycheck?

ANDERSON: I'm a nay on this. If you are giving someone more responsibility, you owe them more compensation for the additional responsibility you are putting on their plate. And if you are just simply giving them a new title without new responsibility, that's ridiculous. So I'm out.

WALLACE: Lulu, what about it? Where are you on dry promotion?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: As I've said before, ridiculo. No, I just think it's ridiculous. I do. I think it's -- I think it's silly, and I think actually it's offensive, because what they're trying to do is bamboozle their workers into saying, hey, you got a fancy new title, but you don't get anything with it. And that is pretty dumb.

WALLACE: Finally, Jedi masters, today is you're day. May the Fourth be with you.




WALLACE: "Star Wars" fans around the world are celebrating May Fourth, the unofficial holiday of the film franchise because it's a play on the movie's famous phrase, "May the Force be with you." Kristen, are you yea or nay on celebrating May Fourth and the "Star Wars" saga?

ANDERSON: I'm a yea. It's always a good time to celebrate the "Star Wars" saga. And this May is the 25th anniversary of "The Phantom Menace," episode one, the one movie the trilogy that I will defend and no one else.

WALLACE: That's not the original one. Thats the prequel one, the one that was terrible?


ANDERSON: That one. Let's discuss afterwards.

WALLACE: We'll discuss afterwards.

Kara, I was talking about this. You kind of remind me of Princess Leia. You're spunky. You won't take any guff. So where are you on "Star Wars"?

SWISHER: I'm not a "Star Wars" fan. I'm a "Star Trek" fan. And Chris, I am your father.


WALLACE: When that was said in a second real movie, my mind blew.


WALLACE: Yes. "Luke" --

SWISHER: No, actually he says, "No, I am your father." He doesn't say, "Luke, I am your father."

WALLACE: Oh, OK, well, for somebody who is not a "Star Wars" fan, you know an awful lot --

SWISHER: I do know a lot. And episode one was terrible. You are wrong.


WALLACE: Which was really not episode one. It was episode four.

Up next, the dog killing story heard round the world of politics.


WALLACE: Over/Under this week, bets already being taken on who Donald Trump will pick as his running mate. Trump says he'll make his choice before the convention this summer. But that's not stopping oddsmakers who have South Carolina Senator Tim Scott as the top choice right now. Other favorites, Tulsi Gabbard and Elise Stefanik. Now, one person who's odds have gotten a lot worse. South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem, who shares in an upcoming memoir that she shot and killed her misbehaving dog Cricket. While people across the political spectrum were outraged, Noem defended herself.


GOV. KRISTI NOEM, (R) SOUTH DAKOTA: This was a working dog, and it was not a puppy. It was a dog that was extremely dangerous. It had come to us from a family who had found her way too aggressive. She attacked me, and it was a hard decision.


WALLACE: It was hard decision, Lulu. What in the world was Kristi Noem thinking, one, to do it, and two, to tell the world about it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I literally find this entire thing mystifying in every possible way as a dog owner and lover. And I know that people on farms have a tough attitude towards animals, but this was a dog that she was like, that was her companion. It's tragic, it's terrible.

And I'll also say, what was she thinking in all of this? I mean, apparently, she said she met Kim Jong-un at a certain point, and that's been shown to be like fantasy. Like, who fact-checked this book?


And that is, I think, what comes to the fore of this. She has been so surrounded by MAGA world that she thinks she can say anything and do anything. And when it gets pushed out into the wider public, I think she's found that it's -- that it's, that the reaction --

WALLACE: Kristen, I'm so upset that Kristi Noem may have embellished a story about meeting the North Korean dictator. But shooting her dog in a gravel pit, I mean is there a political upside here I'm missing?

ANDERSON: No, absolutely not. I think that her misguided thought process was, I will prove to Donald Trump and the Republican Party that I am tough, and I can make tough choices and I can do the ugly thing. And she is now one in a long line of people who have tried to imitate what they think Donald Trump would like and have failed miserably.

SWISHER: I want to know why no one is talking about the goat. I'd like to talk about the goat.

WALLACE: She also shot a goat. SWISHER: It's so inexplicable.

WALLACE: Do you really think that people care as much about the goat?

SWISHER: I just want to know why. What did the goat know? What did the dog know?

WALLACE: You're assuming a coverup. Assuming, guys, that Noem is out of the running, who do you think that Trump will pick -- not saying who you want, who do you think Trump will pick as his running mate, and give me one sentence why. Reihan?

SALAM: It's going to be Doug Burgum, the governor of North Dakota, not South Dakota, because Doug Burgum is a self-made businessman and he's someone who is going to reassure a lot of those voters, centrist, suburban, educated folks who are otherwise pretty skeptical of the former president.


GARCIA-NAVARRO: Marco Rubio, fellow Cuban, Florida senator of my home state. I think Marco because he's Latino. I think Donald Trump is looking for someone of color. And I think he would be a solid choice in terms of someone who is known to the general public.

WALLACE: They do have a problem. They both are Florida residents, so somebody is going to have to move.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: He's moving. If he becomes the vice president, he's moving to the great city of Washington, D.C.

WALLACE: Kristen?

ANDERSON: Congresswoman Elise Stefanik. I think that she will be chosen because I think Donald Trump may consider that he has a woman problem that needs to be fixed. He will think, rightly or wrongly, that she could fix it. And she has proven that she is die-hard loyal to him.

WALLACE: And she's been really tough and out front on this whole campus protest issue.



SWISHER: That's the wrong woman. Cricket. No, actually Tim --


SWISHER: Tim Scott from North (ph) Carolina. He is a loyal lapdog, speaking of dogs, and he's getting married. So it fixes all that.

WALLACE: And that also obviously helps on the minority issue.

SWISHER: Inoffensive. Exactly, the minority issue. I think that's the least of the things. He's a loyal lapdog. Sorry.

WALLACE: You can direct all of your Tim Scott comments to Kara.

Gang, keep your crystal ball out. We'll be getting more predictions from you as well as your takes on hot stories, all of that right after the break.

Really, lapdog?



WALLACE: It's time for our panel's special takes on what's happening or predictions of what we should be looking out for. Kristen, hit me with your best shot.

ANDERSON: This past week, the United Methodist Church made a change to its policy now allowing LGBTQ clergy. This has been a big change for them. A lot of major protestant denominations have kind of gone through this back-and-forth of what do we do about issues around gay rights. So this is a big move for, I believe, the second biggest protestant denomination in the U.S.

WALLACE: And they had lost a big part of them membership before they did this?

ANDERSON: Yes. And it's unclear whether this will bring people back. It could alienate more. It's unclear. But it's certainly nice to see, I think, this change.

WALLACE: Kara, you're on one of your favorite topics.



SWISHER: Yes, A.I. is a hot topic. But there's all these much-touted A.I. devices. These are single-use devices that you either carry or there's a pin. There's one called the Humane Pin, one called Rabbit.

WALLACE: This is "The Wall Street Journal" that's showing some off.

SWISHER: Yes, "The Wall Street Journal" is showing some off.

WALLACE: And we like them?

SWISHER: No, we don't. Single-use devices in tech never tend to work out. Think of the iPod was subsumed by the iPhone. We will have an A.I. in our lives, but it will be integrated, so everything.

WALLACE: Reihan, best shot.

SALAM: At the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, a group or fraternity brothers intervened during a big anti-Israel protests. They were defending folks who were trying to re hoist the American flag. These Pi Kapps are making fraternities great again, Chris.

WALLACE: Are you -- you never struck me as a frat guy.

SALAM: I'm not. I was not into Greek life, that wasn't me. But I've got to say, I saluted those young men. They did an extraordinary job. And now there's been $500,000 raised to help those kids throw the biggest rager of all time. I salute these young men.

SWISHER: Frat boy.

WALLACE: I think this is just a kind of pathetic attempt for you to be included in the rager.

SALAM: Trust me, trust me. I go to bed at 9:00.

SWISHER: He's not going to the rager.

SALAM: I'm not going to any ragers.

WALLACE: Lulu, bring us home.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Punks to now saluting frat boys, I feel very -- I feel very discombobulated.


GARCIA-NAVARRO: All right, my one is border apprehensions are down by 40 percent. This is important because, of course, immigration has become a huge hot-button issue and what has been happening on the southern border. And the reason that immigration has gone down on the southern border is because of what Mexico is doing. And I think one of the things that this really shows is that when you actually have a partnership with a country instead of vilifying a country, that perhaps that might help you in the short term.

WALLACE: Real quickly, do you think that these declining numbers are going to help Biden on the immigration issue where he polls very badly?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't. I don't think so. First of all, because I don't think people are looking at the border going up and down and really focusing on that. And the fact of the matter is that the border is still bad.

WALLACE: Gang, thank you all for being here, and thank you for spending part of your day with us. And to those who celebrate, even Kara, may the Force be with you.


WALLACE: We'll see you right back here next week.