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The Chris Wallace Show

Adult Film Actress Stormy Daniels Testifies In Hush Money Criminal Trial Of Donald Trump; Judge Aileen Cannon Postpones Classified Documents Trial Of Donald Trump In Florida Indefinitely; President Biden Attempting To Change Voters' Negative View Of U.S. Economy; Recent Polls Show Young Voters Care About Immigration And Economy More Than War In Gaza; Young Women In U.S. More Likely To Identify As Members Of Democratic Party Than Young Men; Netflix Airs Comedic Roast Of Former NFL Quarterback Tom Brady; South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem Suspends Book Tour After Critical Reception Of Her Recently Published Memoirs; Boy Scouts Of America Changes Name To Scouting America. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired May 11, 2024 - 10:00   ET




CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, again and welcome. It's time to break down the big stories with some smart people. Today we're asking, after days of salacious details, was porn star Stormy Daniels's testimony and let Trump hush money trial crucial or just cringy?

Then perception problem. President Biden says the economy is great. But with most Americans not feeling it, can he flip the script and convince voters before the election.

And named change. We'll discuss whether the Boy Scouts rebranding deserves a merit badge.

The gang is all here and ready to go. So sit back, relax, and lets talk about it.

Up first, the intimate, and at a times R-rated testimony from porn star Stormy Daniels dominated the headlines this week in Donald Trump's hush money trial. But once you get past that spanking and silk pajamas, questions remain whether the prosecutors are making a convincing argument.



WALLACE: Donald Trump railing against Judge Juan Merchan after he refused to lift the gag order and allow Trump to speak about porn star Stormy Daniels's testimony.

TRUMP: They can say whatever they want, but I'm not allowed to say anything about anybody. WALLACE: Daniels spent six hours laying out, sometimes in graphic

detail, her alleged encounter with the former president. At one point, Trump's lawyer said, "You have a lot of experience of making phony stories about sex appear to be real." Daniels responded "The sex in the films is very much real, just like what happened to me in that room."

AYSHA BAGCHI, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT, "USA TODAY": Stormy Daniels is clearly no shrinking violet.

WALLACE: The salacious testimony made headlines, with Daniels saying Trump was in boxer shorts and a t-shirt and called their sex brief.

TRUMP: It's a disgrace.

WALLACE: However, prosecutors still need to connect how Trump allegedly falsified business records to pay Daniels to keep quiet.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Up until now prosecutors have not established a direct link.

WALLACE: Something Trump says they have no record of.

TRUMP: They have nothing on books and records.


WALLACE: Here with me today, podcaster and author Kara Swisher, Reihan Salam, president of the Manhattan Institute and "National Review" contributing editor, "New York Times" journalist and host of the podcast "The Interview", Lulu Garcia-Navarro, Jonah Goldberg, columnist for "The L.A. Times" and editor in chief of "The Dispatch." Welcome back everyone.

Reihan, was Stormy Daniels's testimony crucial, or was it just cringy?

REIHAN SALAM, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": It was certainly cringy. It also was not germane. It's not exactly clear what Donald Trump is being prosecuted for. Here you have me and my fellow New Yorkers spending millions of dollars on a trial that seems absolutely meaningless other than as an attempt to embarrass the former president.

WALLACE: Kara --



SWISHER: It's crucial and cringy. It can be at the same time. This is a fraud trial, that's all it is. And so they have to bring it -- if it's about hush money to a porn star, they got to bring in the porn star. There's just no way so out of it.

WALLACE: Is it so prejudicial, though, the details about the encounter, that they should have declared a mistrial? SWISHER: As was pointed out to the defense, they could have objected several times, and they didn't, which was a surprise to a lot of people. And they could have kept a lot of that out. You know, she's a porn star. I don't know -- what else would she talk about? It's a sexual encounter that was paid for to keep quiet, they've got to talk about the details.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, "NEW YORK TIMES" JOURNALIST: And part of the problem here is that this is actually the defense's fault because what they are saying is that this never ever happened. And so if you're saying it never ever happened, then you want to bring someone in that says no, actually, it did. And then of course, you want to understand if this person is credible. So she went into minutiae, detail, excruciating detail.

WALLACE: Reihan, are your persuaded by --

SALAM: No. I mean, the reason they weren't objecting in the moment is because it was totally inappropriate to have this person take the stand with regard to the fundamental question of whether or not this was some kind of felony.


I think that this is just crazy to have a judge who should have recused himself in the first place. This is someone who has a campaign contributor to the incumbent president. His daughter is literally someone who has worked for President Biden --


SALAM: -- for President Biden, for a Kamala Harris, and for various other Democratic -- she is a Democratic operative.

WALLACE: The fact is she provides the motive. The whole case is based on whether or not he falsified records to pay her off. She's got to be there to show it was a bad story and there was a reason to play her off.

SALAM: She has also explicitly said that she wants to embarrass and shame this guy, right? So I think that that's certainly --

WALLACE: You don't think any witnesses ever have an axe to grind?

SALAM: Well, in this case, she has explicitly said things that are prejudicial.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Reihan, do you think it didn't happen? I mean that's what that's what this is about. Do you think it didn't happen?

SALAM: I think it's irrelevant. I think that --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: How can it be irrelevant?

SWISHER: Trump is saying it didn't happen. She has to be there. There's no other way. WALLACE: All right, enough about that, because I want to bring Jonah

in. The key government witness, Michael Cohen, is expected to testify Monday. He's the person who the prosecution says can directly link the hush money payments to falsified business records. Jonah, is Cohen too compromised, has he told too many lies, to be a credible witness to a jury?

JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE DISPATCH": I think he's not at all credible by himself. I think the prosecution has probably done a lot of homework and they've laid a lot of groundwork to link his assertions and accusations to provable facts. And so that's the only way you can have Cohen do it, because --

WALLACE: Do you think they've laid the groundwork?

GOLDBERG: I think they think they have. I mean, I'm much more with Reihan on this. I largely think the trial is a farce. But they need to have Cohen in there and they need to have -- they need to button up anything that he says and connect it to other facts.

And that's one of the reasons I think the thing is a farce. I don't know any reasonable person who says, regardless of whether these 34 misdemeanors equal a felony and all the bootstrapping that they're doing as a legal case, he's obviously guilty of the actual acts, right? I mean, he did have sex with this porn star. He did do this double-booking entry thing. Cohen is telling the truth about all of that. It's the legal question whether it adds up to the kind of felony crime that they're accusing him of. I think all they want to do is get the conviction and they don't care that it'll get overturned on appeal.

WALLACE: Meanwhile, the judge refused to lift the gag order, even when Trump's lawyer said, well, she's already been on the stand. Stormy Daniels said terrible things about him. Let them respond to it now. And I guess the question is, Lulu, is it unfair to keep the gag order in effect, particularly in the middle of a presidential campaign, particularly about a witness who has already testified?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But what the judge said is that because Donald Trump has proven himself to be so over the top when he goes after people, so prejudicial, that it is actually important to keep the gag order on. This is based on Donald Trump's own actions and what he has previously said. This isn't something that the judge is simply doing to be punitive to Donald Trump.

SWISHER: I think they should put a gag order on all of them. I have to say, I think they should put it on Cohen. He has been all over the place. Stormy Daniels.

WALLACE: I actually agree with that, too.

SWISHER: That seems fair, because social media is everywhere.

WALLACE: And in fact, the judge on Friday, he did say --

SWISHER: He did. WALLACE: He did say to the prosecutor, tell Cohen to shut up, and he said, I don't have any control over Cohen.

Anyway, then there's the classified documents trial in Florida. Judge Aileen Cannon postponed that indefinitely, stating "finalization of a trial date at this juncture would be imprudent and inconsistent." Kara, is the docs judge in Trump's corner?

SWISHER: I can't tell if she's incompetent or in his corner. I think she's very slow from a lot of the reading I've done. I'm not a lawyer. She seems to be slow-rolling this thing, and it may be because there's all these reports about inside of her courtroom and her clerks and things like that is she doesn't know what she's doing. So part of it's incompetent, the other part is trying to take Trump's side on most things. And it could be incompetence.

WALLACE: Well, I want to pick up on that, Reihan, because, understandably, the Trump people are putting in all kinds of motion. Some of them like, was Jack Smith legally appointed to the job? And she seems to be taking an inordinate amount of time in dealing with these. And it seems, whether intentionally or not, to push the election -- put the trial past the election.

SALAM: Well, I'd flip the question and say this. Why would we be in such a rush if we were not intending to have some political effect? That is, if this were anyone else, someone who is not running for president, wouldn't you want to take a very thorough and careful look at these legitimate legal questions regarding how the prosecution has been handling this case?

So I think that that's what's odd here. It really does seem as though Jack Smith is operating on a political timetable, and otherwise there's no real explanation for why you would rush this.


GOLDBERG: Because he might self-pardon himself, I think is the -- everybody is on a political timetable on this, I think.


President Biden, as trouble of his own on the border. He took action this week to deal with the crisis, but is it enough to satisfy voters?

Plus, the gender gap, the intriguing split among a key group who helped Trump -- rather Biden, win the White House, but may now be turning towards Trump.

And late, just for a mom. We'll find out the best and worst Mother's Day gift ideas, and I have a story you don't want to miss.



WALLACE: With less than six months till the electron, President Biden has a serious perception problem on some of the issues voters care most about. This week, he embarked on a mission to change that, tackling two sore spots that have dominated his time in office -- immigration and the economy.


JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're seeing a great American comeback story all across Wisconsin.

WALLACE: President Biden touting a multi-billion-dollar investment on the exact site where Donald Trump broke ground eight years ago on a now failed facility.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We can say the eighth wonder of the world.

WALLACE: Biden trying to turn the table on how voters view the two presidents handling of the economy.

BIDEN: When has he ever done anything he has said? He's never succeeded and creating jobs, and I've never failed.

WALLACE: But a recent poll tells a different story, with 46 percent of Americans now saying they trust Trump on the economy, while only 32 percent trust Biden.

BIDEN: The polling data has been wrong all along. We have the strongest economy in the world.

WALLACE: The president also trying to change perceptions of his handling the border crisis, this week announcing a new rule to crack down on asylum seekers, while considering more sweeping executive actions both Democrats and Republicans want.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: But it must be for this administration can do.


WALLACE: Reihan, can Biden change voters' perceptions, their minds, their opinions on the economy?

SALAM: I don't think he can at this stage, partly because the big fundamental problem is that a lot of Americans, they want to buy homes. President Biden has advanced a series of policies that have ensured that homeownership is way further out of reach than it was before. Why? Because he came into office while we were in the midst of a recovery from the COVID crash, and then he spent a massive amount of money, a lot of which went to his political allies. And instead of actually delivering a recovery, what it did was deliver massive inflation, which in turn translated into massive interest rates that have locked a lot of folks out of owning homes. That's a fundament --

WALLACE: I would argue it's more than that. But on the same point, his problem, Biden's problem is things cost a lot more than they did under Trump. The cost of food, the cost of gasoline, and, yes, a home mortgage.

Democratic strategist David Axelrod thinks Biden makes a mistake talking up the economy.


DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's not the way people are experiencing the economy. They're experiencing it through the lens of the cost of living. And he is a man who has built his career on empathy. Where, where is -- why not lead with the empathy?


WALLACE: Kara is Axe, right?

SWISHER: I think he is to a point. The prices are the big problem, and the inability to buy a home. Right now, because of the deficit, which was run-up also very much so under Trump, we're going to have high interest rates for a long time. It's going to stick around. And so there's not enough stuff on the market, and the prices are high. So I think yes, he's going to suffer from the fact that he's president right now when this has happened, although there were spending in the freezer.

WALLACE: So was it a mistake to say, well --

SWISHER: No, I think he should tout -- I think the thing that he announced with Microsoft, that was on the Foxconn site that never happened. I think that's important to show growth and jobs in certain places like Wisconsin. That's a good thing.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't understand this thing that always happens that where Biden is supposed to show empathy, but everyone says Trump was so great because all he did was talk himself up. He went to Foxconn and he said this was the eighth wonder of the world, and that's why people remember all these good things. And when Biden does it, everyone is like eh, that man, he needs to be holding people's hands and comforting them. He's doing what any politician does, which is trying to talk up as record.

GOLDBERG: But I think that's the problem, right? I mean, the rules for Trump are different.

SWISHER: That's correct.

GOLDBERG: That's been the problem for the last eight years. People always used to say, well, the laws of political gravity will bring Trump down, and the problem is, is that he doesn't live in the world of the laws of political gravity. He lives in the world of the laws of celebrity gravity. And they just judge him differently. Any other Republican with the Stormy Daniels thing or 1,000 other things would have been a smoldering mess on the ground.

WALLACE: Any other person, not just Republicans?

GOLDBERG: Yes, but particularly a Republican, family values and all that kind of stuff. People just judge him differently. And I think that's part of the problem that Biden finds himself in. I agree with Reihan about the interest rate stuff, but issues just aren't as important. He's a conventional politician who wants to talk about issues. This election is looking like it's going to shape up around vibes. And Biden has a bad vibe of seeming weak and vacillating and Trump, partly because of nostalgia for his economy that I think is a little mist placed comes across as strong and decisive, which again, I think is weird, but that's not my judgment. I think that's the way a lot of people --


SALAM: I actually think that the Biden economy has been great for certain people. It's been great, for example, for the green energy industry sector that he's pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into. But that means that better capital is chasing those sectors of the economy rather than the sectors of the economy that are creating jobs for blue collar, working class Americans --

WALLACE: I want to pick up on what you were talking about, Jonah, and that is the continuing debate about how we in the media should be covering both of these candidates. And it really became kind of a debate this week. Former Obama adviser Dan Pfeiffer went after "The New York Times," and he said "They do not see their job as saving democracy or stopping and authoritarian from taking power." "The Times" executive editor Joe Kahn responded, "That's essentially saying that the news media should become a propaganda arm for a single candidate."

Reihan, should the media report more on, and I say this in quotes, "the Trump threat"?

SALAM: Look, the media is very pluralistic in our society. That's a good and healthy thing. And there's an awful lot of prestige media that is fixated on this idea of Donald Trump as a threat. And in doing so, in many cases, they've torched and undermined their credibility as independent, neutral arbiters of the truth. I think that's what Joe Kahn was reacting to, this sense that actually there are an awful lot of Americans who are tuning out prestige, mainstream, establishment media that has been basically ignoring them.


SWISHER: Let me say that, first of all, Dan didn't say quite what he was asked -- Joe was asked, Joe Kahn was asked.

WALLACE: But this quote was accurate.

SWISHER: I get that. But Joe Kahn, nobody thinks they're the state news agency. He said --

WALLACE: No, he didn't say that they're the state news agency. He was basically saying Pfeiffer and a lot of people -- look, yes. And they say negative things about Biden and do all of that. But there is an existential threat, he claims, to democracy, and that needs to be emphasized. SWISHER: Right, but I think Joe Kahn went too far. You don't have to be the Chinese news agency. I was like, what?

WALLACE: You think there should be more covering of the, quote, "threat to democracy"?

SWISHER: I think I think "The New York Times" justifiably gets joked about in "New York Times" pitch bought for saying whatever happens, there's three people in a diner in --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I do work for "The New York Times," so it feels odd that we're discussing The New York Times, and I'm not going to say this. Let me just say one thing --

WALLACE: We're not talking about "The Times." We're talking about the mainstream media.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I know, but I want to use this as an example, and I think it works for "The New York Times" as it does for any other mainstream media, which is this, if you look over the past two days, you've had an article on an investigation into a worm in the brain of Kennedy. You've had huge investigation into Donald Trump's use of antisemitic tropes and language and how unbelievably hypocritical it is for people on the right to be going after people on the left.

WALLACE: So what's your point?


WALLACE: We're running out of time.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- an investigation into Biden. And so what I'm saying is, what are we trying to do here in the media? Are we trying to say to people, you need to understand this in this particular way, we need to lecture you? Or are we are going to respect people to be able to look at all these facts and make their own decisions. And I would argue, we are trying to respect our audience. And what "The New York Times" is doing is a very robust interrogation of everyone.

SWISHER: Well, I think there are justifiable criticism about "The New York Times" coverage. And so I won't go into it, but I think they are justified.


WALLACE: Stay tuned. We'll be talking about that during the commercial break.

President Biden is losing support among young voters, but it may not be for the reason you think.

And later, roasting the GOAT, did the Tom Brady takedown go too far?


[10:28:36] WALLACE: For all the attention pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses are getting, polls show the war may not sway young voters in November. This week, we saw more protests broken up by police, students opposing the war in Gaza, and Biden administration policies toward Israel. But polls show the conflict in Gaza barely registers among young voters. According to a Harvard youth survey in March, only two percent of those age 18 to 29 said it was their top issue. The immigration and the economy ranked much higher.

Still, President Biden appears to be hemorrhaging support in this age group. Back in 2020, Biden beat Trump among young voters 60 percent to 36. Now a recent NBC News poll shows a dead heat, Trump leading Biden 43 percent of 42.

So Lulu, how much is the war in Gaza actually hurting Biden among young voters?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: It depends which young voters you're talking about.

WALLACE: I'm talking about the vast majority of them.


GARCIA-NAVARRO: I understand, but I don't think that that's true. I mean, I think that it matters very deeply to a lot of young voters, but I would say that they are like the rest of the country. They care about other issues. They care about college debt, student debt. They care about the economy.


WALLACE: According to the polls, they care more about that.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Right now, this is an issue that is top of mind. I'm wondering come November if it is going to be an issue that is top of mind.

WALLACE: Reihan, for all the attention that the protests on campus are getting, indications are it's really a small, small minority of college students of college students who are actually out there protesting. And I guess the question is, are we exaggerating the political impact? I'm talking about the right or wrong of the issue. Are we exaggerating the political impact among young voters of protesting the war in Gaza?

SALAM: I think that President Biden is making a big mistake if he believes that he's going to win over young voters by abandoning Israel and threatening Israel. I do believe that it's a big issue for this reason. I think that Biden's administration is dominated by an awful lot of people who are very receptive to this kind of organized pressure campaign to change U.S. policy in Israel. It has nothing to do with real-world voters. It has everything to do with donors and other very influential pressure groups on the left that want to punish Israel.

SWISHER: I actually have young voters in my family. And the things they care about is they're a little disaffected that they can make any change. I think that's what I hear from all their friends and all -- Gaza is not the issue. The economy is and whether they have any impact and whether it matters. That is what my kids talk about a lot and their friends.

WALLACE: OK, I want to take another look at the youth vote, because there's some interesting indications that in analyzing the youth vote the key is not generational. It's gender. Listened to these numbers. Among women 18 to 34, 60 percent identify as Democratic, 22 percent as Republican. Among young men, there's only a five Democratic advantage, 39 percent to 34. Kara, why do you think there is such a big gender gap among young voters?

SWISHER: Again, it's happening everywhere. It's not just that. It's older people and between women and men at every age group, I think, of voters. You know, it depends. I mean, I think women are more concerned with issues about bodily autonomy and some other things they're very worried about under a Trump administration.

WALLACE: Like reproductive rights.

SWISHER: Reproductive rights and things like that.

And I suspect, again, a lot of young man are disaffected. There's a very big problem with young men feeling not part of the society, feeling disaffected. And so you'd be more attracted to a strong man than you would others.

WALLACE: I want to pick up on that with you, Jonah. I kind of understand, I think, intuitively why women would lean towards Biden. Why do you think it is? And we see this in polls and particularly among young man, particularly among young man, non-college educated, blacks, Hispanics, young man, that they are really trending towards Trump and away from Biden. How do you explain it?

GOLDBERG: Yes, first of all, this is, as some of us were saying, this is an old story. I mean, Chris Matthews 30 years ago describe the Democrats is the mommy party and the Republicans as the daddy party. That's how they present themselves. One is nurturing, one is stern, and all that kind of stuff. But then I think in the new age of social media where people balkanize and consume different kinds of media and have different kinds of approaches, and they self-sort by gender, that's a part of it.

And then a big part of it is that the changes in the economy they are pretty good for women. A lot of the new jobs are better suited towards women, speaking in broad stereotypes. And the days where you could work your way into the middle-class and provide for a family simply by virtue of having a good work ethic and a strong back are over. And that's bad for men.

WALLACE: Lulu, why do you think the Democrats have a -- seem to have a problem with young men?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think what we see in exactly in the demographic data is that young men in particular aren't going to college as much. They're not doing as well academically. So they're not moving into those jobs that this economy actually creates and that moves them into the middle and upper classes. And so I think that there's economic disparities.

I also think that, frankly, the things that are -- excuse me, the things that young women are passionate about are things like bodily autonomy. They do see the Democratic Party as being a champion of that. And they are worried about their future under the Republican Party, specifically on that issue.

WALLACE: Speaking of voting, the results are in and we may have a winner for the worst book rollout in history.

Plus, forget flowers. We're celebrating Mother's Day with some gift ideas that moms may not want.



WALLACE: Once again, it's time to get our group's yea or nay on some big talkers. Up first, the roast of Tom Brady some say went way too far. The Netflix special included celebs, teammates, even as legendary coach Bill Belichick, all taking shots at the football legend. From jabs about his divorce to the deflate-gate controversy, nothing was off-limits. Here's one of the few jokes that was clean enough we can play it on morning TV.


NIKKI GLASER, COMEDIAN: You retired, then you came back, and then you retired again. I mean, I get it. It's hard to walk away from something that's not your pregnant girlfriend. It's tough.



WALLACE: Through it all, Brady looked pretty uncomfortable, even though he was an executive producer of the special. Kara, are you yea or nay on the tom brady roast?


SWISHER: I don't like roasts, and I thought this one was more tasteless and most of them. I don't think a lot of -- some of it was funny. The stuff about his wife, which -- and they're separated or divorced, wasn't really nice. The attacks on Kim Kardashian's kids was weird. It just, it didn't -- it was it was very sour. It was sour.

WALLACE: Reihan, Brady's ex-wife Gisele was supposedly not amused by some of the jokes, especially about their divorce and her possible new boyfriend. Was the roast to raunchy, especially about his personal life, or was it just right?

SALAM: It's not to my taste, but Netflix has to take big swings. This is an enormous company, and actually they're being very edgy, very experimental in ways that redound to their benefit. They also have a huge new series from John Mulaney, a six part variety at show called "Everyone's in L.A.", which is exactly the kind of thing that you should be doing when you have deep pockets like that. I think that in that spirit, it was the right call for Netflix.

WALLACE: Let me say, it is a huge hit on Netflix. It's one of the most watched shows there.

SALAM: And we're talking about it here.

WALLACE: From a talker in sports to a talker in politics, the rollout of Governor Kristi Noem's memoir was a disaster. First, she was hammered for the story about killing her dog Cricket, then writing that she met North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un when she apparently didn't. After taking a beating from mainstream media, she may have hoped for a friendlier reception from right-wing channels. She didn't get it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's because of things that have come out in this book like your claims that you met Kim Jong-un.

GOV. KRISTI NOEM, (R) SOUTH DAKOTA: I'm not going to talk about my meetings.

STUART VARNEY, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: Did you bring up the dog with Trump.

NOEM: Enough, Stuart.

VARNEY: With Trump, did you bring up the dog --

NOEM: This interview is ridiculous, what you were doing right now.


WALLACE: The whole thing was such a mess, Noem cut off for a book tour and went home to South Dakota. Lulu, yea or nay, is this the worst book rollout ever?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, it's definitely a contender.



WALLACE: It's in the top ten.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's in the top ten. I mean, this was a disaster in every possible way that it could have been a disaster. She was an embarrassment. And part of the problem is, she is used to not dealing with the fact-based media. She is used to being surrounded by sycophants. And so therefore, once she had to be faced with some of the things that she lied about, she was ousted for the apparently dog killing liar that she is.

WALLACE: Jonah, I mean, I've seen books and writers get hostile receptions. Never anything like that.

GOLDBERG: Yes. And so Kara and Lulu pled personal privilege about being a parent or being at "The New York Times." I am the husband of an accomplished ghostwriter, and I'm also a well-known dog lover. So I want to say that, first of all, throwing your ghost rider under the bus is outrageous. Like, she read this thing on an audio book. And to then claim I didn't know it was in the book, just, she beclowned herself in such profound ways it would take a heart of stone not to laugh.

WALLACE: Finally, in honor of Mother's Day tomorrow, we want to change up the question and ask, what's the best or worst Mother's Day gift you've ever gotten or given? Lulu, is there one that stands out?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: There is. When my daughter was very young and I was a host at National Public Radio, NPR, my team actually surprised me and suddenly played a very special message on the air from her. And I cried.

WALLACE: Well, it just so happens, here is that message.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, mommy. Happy Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day to all of the mothers out there.


GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, come on, whose heart isn't going to melt with that.

WALLACE: All right, I am going to take -- I'm sorry, Kara. You're not going to get to tell this story. I'm going to take 30 seconds to tell my story, which is when I was about six or seven I was going to get my mother a Mother's Day gift. So I took a magazine, and there were pictures of beautiful jewelry. I took some scissors. I cut it out. I put it in an envelope, and I gave it to my mother and said happy Mother's Day. And she said to me, Chris, at Christmas time I'm going to go to a magazine and get some pictures of toys, cut it out, and give that to you as a present.


WALLACE: I never gave her a picture of something again.

Up next, the controversial change at a 115-year-old organization that's gone under the radar.



WALLACE: Under the Radar this week, the Boy Scouts of America is changing its name, becoming simply Scouting America. The move comes after years of changes, like allowing girls in the Boy Scouts in 2019, and years of serious challenges like declaring bankruptcy in 2020 after a wave of sexual assault allegations against troop leaders. Back in 1972, there were 5 million scouts. That is now down to 1 million. The group's president says the organization wants to make clear, everyone is welcomed as a scout.

Jonah, will the Boy Scouts name change make a difference?

GOLDBERG: I think it'll make a difference, but not necessarily a positive one. For the reasons we were talking about before, boys have real problems in this country, and one of the things that boys need is like strong leadership and discipline and to be turned from little barbarians into civilize people.


And I think the Boy Scouts are basically following the pattern of a lot of mainline protestant churches by thinking that by term turning up the game of sort of loosey-goosey stuff, they attract more people, when in fact they just let more people out.

SWISHER: No, no.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: This is about sexual abuse. They had a huge sexual abuse scandal.


WALLACE: OK, but some conservatives are against the ways in which the Boy Scouts have tried to accommodate to that and say that there should be spaces just for boys and spaces just for girls, and that this --

SWISHER: They're just rebranding it. They've had a tough couple of years. At first they were sort of anti-gay, and then they had the sexual abusing. My dad was an Eagle Scout --

WALLACE: My son was an Eagle Scout, or is an Eagle Scout.

SWISHER: I thought about putting my sons in, but then I didn't because I was like, I don't understand this organization anymore. And I thought it was a great disappointment to me.

WALLACE: So is this name change going to make a difference?

SWISHER: I don't know. I don't know. I've had lots of discussions with them about it over the many years, with the people, the Boy Scouts.

WALLACE: Reihan, do you think the name change will end or turn around the decline of the -- which I was shocked to see, from 5 million to 1 million.

GOLDBERG: While the population got so much bigger, too.

SALAM: Yes, exactly. I'm with Jonah. I think that fundamentally this is a sign of a flailing organization that doesn't know what to do about its future. Thankfully, there actually are other scouting organizations, including scouting organizations focused on boys, that are emerging from the ashes of this very broken organization. And I think that that's what we're going to see more of. There's a need for this kind of mentorship that Jonah is describing. And I think that there are others who are stepping in to fill that vacuum.

WALLACE: The panel is back with their takes on hot stories or what will be in the news before it's news. That's right after this break.



WALLACE: It's time for our panel special takes on what's happening, or predictions of what we should be looking out for. So Jonah, hit me with your best shot.

GOLDBERG: So I'm willing to bet that the Trump trial in New York ends in a hung jury. What I don't know is whether or not it's because someone actually believes on the merits that he shouldn't be convicted or whether or not the incentive structure and are incredibly media obsessed climate and culture these days is so strong for them to become celebrities by being a lone holdout.

WALLACE: The one person who says, no, I'm not going to put Donald Trump in jail.

GOLDBERG: Right. Trump world will make him a superstar overnight, or her.

WALLACE: Lulu, you're focused on the newest star and the Kennedy clan?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, I have been obsessed with this this week.

GOLDBERG: The brain worm?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: The brain worm? Oh God, the brain worm. Yes, that is where it ends up. But no, the youngest scion of the Kennedy clan has become a superstar this week because he has been going after his uncle. He is the son of Caroline Kennedy. His name is Jack Schlossberg. And he has a very interesting Instagram feed. Take a look.


JACK SCHLOSSBERG: He's lying to you, all right? Independent third party, third, third party independent. Yeah freaking right. He's got Trump's doneness. He's got Trump's advisers. Him and Trump go way freaking back. Don't be fooled by that. Don't throw away your vote.


GARCIA-NAVARRO: So what you're seeing here is him doing a bunch of different accents, that was one of them, basically acting like regular voters, saying terrible things about his uncle and why do you shouldn't vote for him. That got a lot of blowback because he is a very privileged guy who has a lot of fancy degrees, and people were saying he was making fun of regular voters. But of course, what ended up happening is that he went back on, he did some more really funny imitations, saying that he was sorry, not sorry. And so it's just been ongoing, and very entertaining.

WALLACE: You really are obsessed with this. Reihan --


WALLACE: Best shot?

SALAM: Park Macdougald had a brilliant piece in "Tablet" magazine on the funding behind the recent Gaza encampments on elite college campuses across the country. And the takeaway is this -- this is something that was not spontaneous or organic. This is something that started being planned way back in November. And the scary thing is that there are many mainstream progressive funders behind training these young people in hand-to-hand fighting tactics and a variety of other just very bizarre and, frankly, frightening measures.

WALLACE: The agitators, but it really does seem --

SWISHER: The rightwing has never done that.

Apple had a rare misstep this week with an ad called "Crushed," which they crushed a lot of things in a vice in order to show off their new Ozempic iPad. It's unusual. They've taken it back. They were trying to show how everything fits in this skinny little iPad, which it is a very skinny. It was a rare misstep by them. They'd been known for their terrific ads, and they had put out a number of great ads. But this one, I kind of like it because it's a trend on TikTok to crush things. But in this case, it looks like they're crushing creators, a big tech company. And so rare misstep by Apple.

WALLACE: So, I mean, just so if people get the real sense of it, guitars, violins, metronomes.

SWISHER: Yes, squishy dolls.

WALLACE: Everything was crushed, and you end up with this tiny, thin --

SWISHER: Skinny.

WALLACE: -- iPad.

SWISHER: I call Ozempic iPad, yes.

WALLACE: But -- and you don't think that this was a stunt and they knew it was going to create a big controversy and they're getting a lot of publicity?

SWISHER: No, because Apple is really known --

WALLACE: Because we're talking about it? SWISHER: Apple is known as a creator friendly place. And I think a lot of people reacted like that doesn't seem very creator friendly to crush them.

WALLACE: It was creative, though.

SWISHER: It was creative. I weirdly liked it.

GOLDBERG: Creative destruction.

SWISHER: I weirdly liked it.

WALLACE: All right, gang, thank you all for being, and thank you for spending part of your day with us. And we'll see you right back here next week.