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The Chris Wallace Show

President Biden Loses First Presidential Debate Of 2024 To Donald Trump According To Many Pundits; Some Democrats Reportedly Urging President Biden To Step Down As Party's Nominee After Poor Debate Performance; Donald Trump's Debate Performance Criticized For Repeated Lies; Potential Effect Of Donald Trump's Personal And Legal Issues On Voters Examined; Supreme Court To Issue Decision On Presidential Immunity Case; U.S. Postal Service To Issue "Jeopardy!" Host Alex Trebek Themed Stamps. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired June 29, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:41]

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, and welcome. It's time to break down the big stories with some smart people. Today we're asking, after a shocking debate performance, should President Biden drop out of the race? And if Biden lost, did Donald Trump actually win? We'll discuss his not so perfect debate.

Then stamp of approval -- we'll find out who is OK with the new higher price to send a letter in the mail.

The panel is here and ready to go. So sit back, relax, and let's talk about it.

Up first, a party in panic. Democrats doing some serious soul searching after President Biden's wobbly debate against Donald Trump, with many of his supporters now asking whether it's time for the 81- year-old to bow out of the race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth.

(CHEERS)

WALLACE: Joe Biden back on the trail proclaiming he's not going anywhere.

BIDEN: I intend to win this state in November.

WALLACE: Resisting, at least for now, a tsunami or behind-the-scenes calls from Democrats for him to step aside.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There is a deep, a wide, and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic Party. WALLACE: A frightened reaction to Biden's disastrous debate. First,

the weak, raspy voice, vacant stares into nowhere. Less than 10 minutes into the debate, forgot what he was talking about.

BIDEN: What we have to do is -- look -- if -- we finally beat Medicare.

WALLACE: And as the debate went on, he ran out of things to say even about protecting Social Security.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: You still have 82 seconds left.

WALLACE: Worried supporters talking privately about replacing Biden at the Democratic Convention if he won't step down. But choosing a new nominee this late won't be easy.

LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Unless Joe Biden decides himself to step down, there is no feasible way to replace him.

WALLACE: Vice President Harris just one of the high-profile Democrats being floated as a replacement. But for now, she's busy trying to clean up Biden's mess.

KAMALA HARRIS, (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not going to spend all night with you talking about the last 90 minutes when I've been watching the last three-and-a-half years of performance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Here with me today, podcaster and author Kara Swisher, editor in chief at "The Dispatch" and columnist at "The L.A. Times", Jonah Goldberg, New York times journalist and podcast host, Lulu Garcia- Navarro, and executive director of "The American Conservative" magazine, Curt Mills. Welcome everyone, especially Curt, who is a first timer.

So Kara, every time over the last few months that I've raised the possibility that Biden somehow might exit this race, you've said it's not going to happen. After this debate, should he drop out, will he drop out?

KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "PIVOT" AND "ON": Last night, I thought perhaps. I was on a plane during the debate on purpose. I didn't want to see it because I felt somewhat -- remember I said last week someone was going to fall and break a hip. Well, someone did. So I was worried about the thing.

But when I saw it last night, I thought, yes. Then I saw him a rally today --

WALLACE: Yes he should be out?

SWISHER: He should be out. And then I saw him at the rally, and I saw him at the Waffle House right after. The Waffle House Biden is an excellent Biden. And today at the rally, he was very vibrant. So I don't think he's going to. So I don't think it really matters if he should or shouldn't. I don't think he's absolutely not going to step out.

WALLACE: But what changed your mind? I mean, he bombed in front of 50 million people, and because he reads well off a teleprompter that persuades you he should lead the free world for four years?

SWISHER: No, but I think he -- I think they were making, their talking point was that the past three-and-a-half years he's done a very good job. And I think he could make that case to people.

And one of the things that did persuade me a little bit is all the pundits were in a panic. They absolutely were. But then I was noticing a lot of stuff from voters, and they had a different reaction than pundits. And I just don't quite know what the actual reaction is beyond the Washington bubble.

WALLACE: Jonah, as a never Trump conservative, should Biden drop out? And will he?

JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE DISPATCH": He definitely should drop out. I think if you actually believe the things that Democrats say about Trump being an existential threat to democracy, then you should do everything that you can within the law and within the rules to put forward the best person who has a chance of beating Donald Trump.

[10:05:11]

Joe Biden is losing right now. After that debate, he's going to do worse in the polls. And I find there's also just the more basic question about whether he's actually up to the job. When Robert Hur, the special counsel, said that he was too old and too -- it was denounced as this outrageous partisan hit. It is now the defense of Joe Biden that he's an old guy, he has bad moments and all that kind of thing. I don't think that reading from a teleprompter is the same thing of having to actually answer questions for 90 minutes without any notes using your brain and your recall. And I think he's not qualified for the job or to be the candidate.

WALLACE: Then there's the question of the party perhaps acting on its own. We've looked at the rules, and Biden's delegates to the Democratic Convention are not legally bound to vote for him. But they were handpicked by his campaign and are presumably loyal to him. Lulu as a practical matter, can Democrats force Biden out if he doesn't want to drop out of the race?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, "NEW YORK TIMES" JOURNALIST AND PODCAST HOST: No, I don't think they can force him out. This is something that has to come from him, and it has to come from the upper echelons of the Democratic Party. If, indeed, that is the decision that is being made, and I see no evidence of that. I mean, I think there's a lot of panic, but I don't see any evidence at the top of the party that they are willing to do that right now, they really don't have -- their hands are tied. There's really not a whole lot that they can do about it.

WALLACE: But their hands aren't tied. I mean, the delegates are not legally bound. They could all sit there and -- GARCIA-NAVARRO: No one is going to have an internal coup in the

Democratic Party to shove out Joe Biden. It's not going to happen. So to even sort of speculate about that I think is it's irresponsible.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: Heaven. Curt, let me pick up on that, because I want to pick up on something that Jonah said. If you believe, as the Democrats profess, that Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy, why wouldn't they, even if Biden doesn't want them to, throw up open the convention and pick somebody who they feel more confident can perhaps ward off this threat of Donald Trump?

CURT MILLS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, "THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE": I guess I just see it in the direct opposite manner. If they do believe their own rhetoric, you're talking about the least democratic process possible. We had an open primary. He could have been challenged. The health problems were not new. He was not challenged seriously. There's the Dean Phillips person who got one percent of the vote. Yes, yes, precisely. And now we want to have a panic convention three weeks into it?

Also, the regulations, I believe, they decided to do it over Zoom in July. So we're talking about doing an open convention over Zoom. I can't imagine anything less democratic than what's being proposed there. I wholeheartedly agree, this is fantasy stuff. This is good for TV. But Biden's not going anywhere.

And I always think it's very funny how he doubted he is. This is actually the most implacable opponent Trump has had. Trump beat Hillary Clinton.

WALLACE: Did you watch the debate?

MILLS: Yes.

WALLACE: And were you not troubled by Biden's performance?

MILLS: Troubled, like as an American? Like he obviously -- but my ideal president would not be in his early 80s. But he does seem like kind of fine. It's sort of by the line if he has a cold. I don't approve of a lot of decisions he made in his presidency, but he won the vote, and he won the vote of his party in the spring. And I see no reason why he should be defrocked because he had a raspy voice last night.

WALLACE: Jonah, let's just play this out. If Biden somehow exits the race, either of his own volition or a coup inside the party, is there a Democrat who do you think would have a better chance of beating Donald Trump?

GOLDBERG: I think Gretchen Whitmer would have a pretty good chance.

WALLACE: Governor of Michigan.

GOLDBERG: I think the governor of Pennsylvania, I think at governor in general -- governors are the last politicians as a category in this country that actually care about, first of all, governing and dealing with a majority of their own voters and know how to talk to their voters in a certain way because they don't have to nationalize their politics.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Do you think it's just, it's too late for all of that.

GOLDBERG: Oh, it would be very hard.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Also, Gretchen Whitmer, and I've interviewed her recently for her new book, and she is a charismatic leader. She's done a lot in Michigan. She's brought in a trifecta for the state. I mean, there's a lot of enthusiasm around her. But frankly, she polls it five percent nationally. People don't know.

WALLACE: Because she's not running.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Right, but the idea that they're going to get to know her between now and November or any other of these candidates is, I think, again --

GOLDBERG: They know Joe Biden and don't like him. That's the fundamental problem.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: They think that he's old, they think that he's old.

GOLDBERG: And personally I don't care about that. If there's the idea that the Democratic Party has to be internally democratic, that is an idea that goes back to 1972.

[10:10:00]

Parties can -- we are the only advanced industrialized democracy in the world whose parties have voluntarily giving up the ability to pick their own candidates.

SWISHER: This is just not going to happen. By the way, Democrats aren't very good at coups. That's sort of the GOPs specialty. But it's not going to happen. That's the whole thing. It is a Washington fantasy. It's just not happening in real --

WALLACE: It's not as fantastic as it was a few days ago. And one I noticed, the person not mentioned in this conversation is the current vice president, Kamala Harris. Do you see any possibility if Biden somehow exits this race, that the Democratic Party as it now stands would pass over the first black woman vice president.

SWISHER: I mean, they could. She is the best known of them, right. I mean, of all of them, she's the best known. So she would be the natural person to pick. But I think there's quite a few candidates. There's Gavin Newsom, there's -- Gavin Newsom probably is her biggest competitor would be my guess between the two of them. But again, it's not going to happen.

WALLACE: You keep -- you're sticking with that.

SWISHER: I just, I was watching a lot of the statements from Barack Obama and some others, and I just don't --

WALLACE: They're not going to say it in public. They're going to to him in private.

SWISHER: All right, sure.

WALLACE: Then there's the other guy on the stage. Donald Trump may have won the debate, but did he show signs his character is still a big issue?

Next, the waiting game, the Supreme Court decision expected Monday which could impact presidents for generations.

And later, turn it off. The world's most annoying ringtone according to iPhone users. We'll find out who on the panel has it. I'm betting, Lulu, that you might have the world's most annoying ringtone.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:16:20]

WALLACE: While Joe Biden's poor debate was the big story, Donald Trump had issues of his own. Amid talk a porn stars and golf scores, Trump showed his willingness to lie and be nasty, which may limit how much he can make of this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We had a big victory against a man that really is looking to destroy our country. He's the worst. He's the most corrupt, the most incompetent president of the history of our country.

WALLACE: Donald Trump campaigning in Virginia, looking to seize the momentum after the president's week debate.

BIDEN: It's hard to get any word in with this clown.

WALLACE: Four years ago, Trump had his own problems, constantly interrupting Biden.

BIDEN: Because the question is, the question is --

TRUMP: -- Supreme Court justices, radical left --

BIDEN: Would you shut up, man?

WALLACE: But this time he turned in a more disciplined performance, hitting his issues like illegal immigration hard.

TRUMP: They're killing our people in New York and California in every state in the union, because we don't have borders anymore. Every state is now a border.

WALLACE: But even as he played by the rules, Trump repeated dozens of his favorite lies.

TRUMP: A relatively small number of people that went to the Capitol, and in many cases were ushered in by the police.

WALLACE: And when he had the president on the ropes, he offered mean personal attacks instead of a positive vision for the future.

TRUMP: -- for three-and-a-half years, we're living in hell.

Joe, our country is being destroyed as you and I sit up here and waste a lot of time on this debate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Lulu, I think it's clear for the first segment, we all think Biden lost. Did Trump win?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, Trump did not win. And it is only because Biden was so spectacularly bad that Trump seemed coherent in any fashion. I mean, let's just look at a few of the things that Trump said. He was talking about black jobs. What are black jobs? I don't know. Does anyone else here know what black jobs is? He was talking about using Palestinian as a slur. He offended Latinos by some of his claims about the border and what Hispanics do when they come to this country.

So at every turn he was offensive, he dug into this vision of America, which is dystopian and untrue. And I think that ultimately, if Biden hadn't been so incapable of even taking softball questions and not turning them around, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

WALLACE: Curt, if we can put aside Biden's performance, did Trump have a good debate? And did he enhance his standing with voters?

MILLS: Yes. No, I think he did quite well. I think at the end of the day, since we have had four years of both of these gentlemen, so much of this sort of average voter's impression will be as which one of these cats look more like a national father? And Trump seemed very balanced last night, even if you don't think he's a balanced individual. I think he was very strong specifically on the issue of Russia versus Ukraine. He argued that he will wrap the --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Do you believe him, though? I mean, come on, he's saying in 24 hours he's going to have the Ukraine situation wrapped up in a bow.

WALLACE: Before he takes office.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Before he takes office, and you think that's a sign of strength?

MILLS: It's a callback to the Reagan pledge where in 1980 and also the Nixon --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I understand that, but coming from Trump it sounds delusional. MILLS: Well, I mean Biden was talking about how Putin is trying to

reconstitute the Soviet Union or something. He's very clearly more committed to the ideological facets of the war. He couldn't, he definitely couldn't do worse than Biden. Trump is not ideologically committed to the war going on, which strikes me as an improvement on the status quo.

WALLACE: Jonah, if Biden somehow leaves the race, could another Democrat stand a better chance of beating him than Biden does?

[10:20:05]

GOLDBERG: Yes, absolutely. I mean, it depends on the Democrat. I think one of the one of the reasons why I think you guys are probably right it won't happen is because -- is the Kamala Harris problem. A lot of people don't think that she could beat Trump. And so that's a backstop. You really have to get two people out of the way, and not just one.

But I think it's obvious that Trump won last night. It was his best debate performance ever, which is, again, grading on a curve. But all debates are graded on a curve. It is all relative. And the sense is --

WALLACE: But you weren't disturbed by all the lies, all the meanness?

GOLDBERG: I think Donald Trump is --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And the abortion stuff where he was talking about Democrats murdering babies after they come out of the womb.

GOLDBERG: He says wrong things constantly.

SWISHER: No, they're not wrong --

GOLDBERG: He lies. Look, I'm not going to defend Donald Trump. He's a morally deformed human being.

SWISHER: I think a lot of people picked up on the mendacious snus. I've heard it from normal people.

GOLDBERG: For 10 years we've had pundits constantly saying the laws of political gravity are going to bring Trump back down to earth. The problem is, he does not fit the laws of political gravity. He fits the laws of celebrity gravity. And people price this stuff into him, and they don't care. And he did better in this debate than a lot of people predicted. And in a boxing match, if one guy loses, the other guy wins, and that's what happened last night.

WALLACE: I want to pick up on this issue of celebrity gravity, because while Biden had his problems, he did land a solid punch discussing Trump's personal issues, leading to this remarkable exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public, for doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star on the night while your wife was pregnant? What are you talking about? You have the morals of an alley cat.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Sir?

TRUMP: I didn't have sex with a porn star.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Which is certainly reassuring to hear, and maybe the first time that's been denied during a presidential debate. But the question, Kara, is, is character even an issue for Trump anymore, these kinds of apparently true allegations, or is all just baked into --

SWISHER: I get the baked in thing, but I don't think so. I think people at some point are like, what is wrong with this person? I think it does add up over time, that they get tired -- with celebrities it definitely happens. Once they get too far down the line, they start to lose something with their fans. And I don't think this -- I don't think people find this very funny anymore. They find it sad and pathetic.

GOLDBERG: Why is Joe Biden winning?

SWISHER: What isn't he winning?

GOLDBERG: I'm willing to concede all -- I mean, why is Joe Biden losing. I'm willing to concede all of the criticisms of Trump and add 10 more. But he is, by any measure in polls, gaining before going into the debate, he's going to gain even more. If all of the things that people say about Trump are true, and all of the stakes are true, and I'm willing to concede all of them, why don't the American people agree?

SWISHER: I think they -- they think he's better -- They may think he's better than Biden. They're leaving aside all the moral things. But I think the moral things stick in their craw quite a lot more than you think. I think it ultimately builds up over time.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And all we're talking about, anyway, is a slice of the persuadable population. I mean, we're not talking about the country writ large. There are people who will never, ever vote for Trump.

GOLDBERG: Me included.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And then people who love Trump. And then there's people in the middle who are trying to figure out the best of what they think are two bad options. And it might be that the pocketbook in their mind wins over the democracy issue and a million other things. And so the person who is Trump and the person who is Biden becomes less important over time. And it's --

WALLACE: Let me pick up on this with you, Curt. I mean, whether it's the porn star or the hush money or the sexual abuse which a judge described as rape of E. Jean Carroll, you can go on, and the business fraud, why doesn't it stick? Obviously, it does to millions and millions of Americans, but it doesn't does qualify Donald Trump in the way it would any other politician. It seems to defy the laws of political gravity.

MILLS: There's two separate things here, right? There's the alleged personal behavior, which I think a lot of Americans have concluded, is Mr. Trump's business. And then there are his business and legal exposures. And I think there is broad distrust in this system, which should be disquieting to everyone even if they don't support Trump or aren't voting for him. The fact is, even if Biden does win reelection, the number of people that are willing to even consider someone who is so anathema to, I think, my co-panelists here, is a crisis for this system. This does not have full legitimacy in the body public.

WALLACE: The big story next week won't be the debate, but the Supreme Court and the big decision it's making which could redefine the presidential race and how presidents act for years to come

[10:25:02]

Also ahead, a contest of a different kind, the world's ugliest dog. We'll show you the winner -- yikes -- coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: The wait continues for the most controversial Supreme Court decision of the year. On Monday, the justices are expected to decide whether Donald Trump should receive presidential immunity for acts he committed while in office.

[10:30:05]

This is the argument Trump's team made to the court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D. JOHN SAUER, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: If a president can be charged, put on trial, and imprisoned for his most controversial decisions as soon as he leaves office, that looming threat will distort the president's decision-making precisely when bold and fearless action is most needed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But the special counsel's team argued absolute immunity would allow presidents to commit crimes without punishment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL DREEBEN, ATTORNEY FOR SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH: This normal theory would immunize former presidents for criminal liability for bribery, treason, sedition, murder, and here, conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WALLACE: The court's decision, even a narrow one, will be critical to the timeline and outcome of the federal and Georgia criminal cases against Trump for election interference, possibly pushing them past November. And if Trump should win reelection, he could order his Justice Department to drop the federal cases against him.

Curt, how four far will the Supreme Court go on presidential immunity?

MILLS: I think the conservative majority will throw the president of a bone, but not quite as large as he potentially wants. I think we're going to get a piecemeal decision, if I had to guess, which is that some of it will be struck out, some of it will be remanded to lower courts, and these proceedings will go forward. I think the ultimate verdict is going to be at the ballot box, not in any court in this land.

WALLACE: Kara, if the court should give what Curt is talking about, which is basically qualified immunity --

SWISHER: Correct.

WALLACE: Is that a win for Trump or is that a win for the special counsel prosecuting these cases?

SWISHER: In this case, I think it's probably a win for this country. I hate to say that because I think complete immunity obviously is not going to happen. It's simply not going to happen. And limited immunity seems appropriate for things that you do an office. You can't constantly be -- there's a lot of controversial decisions presidents make, and there's a lot of edge cases.

But I think it goes back down to the court, and in certain cases that are obvious crimes and are not official acts, presidents should be liable for. And I think that's probably where they're going to go because it seems the most reasonable.

WALLACE: If the court were to rule that way, it raises a new set of questions. Take, for instance, Trump's phone call to Georgia secretary of state almost two months after the 2020 election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: This is the rub. The special counsel says Trump was a political candidate trying to flip the vote and Georgia, but Trump's lawyers argue he was acting as president to investigate election fraud. So that raises the question, Lulu, how does a court -- maybe they send it down to the lower court, how do they distinguish between what is an official act by the president and what is a private act by the president? GARCIA-NAVARRO: So this is exactly the problem. And what I would say

is Ketanji Brown Jackson has discussed this when they argued the case, and she basically said, if something it's illegal, whether it is a private act or an act as president, it is illegal. And so therefore, it should be held, the president should be held responsible. And I tend to agree with that view. My -- yes, of course, presidents do things that are controversial, but if they do things that are illegal, they should be he held accountable.

WALLACE: Jonah, how complicated could this get with courts trying to decide, distinguish between this as an official act by the president, this was a private act by the president, and therefore, if it's private, it can be prosecuted?

GOLDBERG: Yes. Look, I mean, this is one of the ways in which Trump's behavior damages our institutions because there are gray areas, right? I mean, like killing an American citizen is illegal without due process. But if you have reasonable belief that they're a terrorist, or whatever, Barack Obama ordered a terror strike on an American citizen, those kinds of questions get tough.

And the Supreme Court is not supposed to decide cases. It's supposed to settle questions. And I would -- it's a mess that were into this. I generally agree with you, but even there, criminal intent gets into it, gets fuzzy, right? Because a criminal acts, according to some of the theories put forward by the special counsel, there's not a really good argument for why FDR shouldn't have been prosecuted for putting Japanese in concentration camps.

But we kind of understand, given the contingencies of the moment, that that never would have happened, it certainly didn't happen. But going forward, it should and that probably would. So it's just messy. It's really messy.

WALLACE: For instance, the phone call to the Georgia secretary of state, was that the president as a political candidate trying to flip a state that he lost, or is that the president looking at election fraud?

[10:35:02]

GOLDBERG: Yes, I think to sort of Lulu's point, you have to establish two things. Was it a crime? And was it criminal intent? I think you can probably prove both. You can definitely prove one. I think the clearer one is where he's pressuring people to create fake electors. That's -- even their own lawyers did not consider that to be a public act and that can still go forward. So there's still things you can be prosecuted on.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Sorry.

SWISHER: It felt like crime to me.

GOLDBERG: I agree.

SWISHER: That goes to a chord. You're in calling in Georgia and you're saying find me these votes. This is not him investigating. This is him pressuring.

WALLACE: But to Jonah's point, we're not talking just about Trump. We're talking about all future presidents. And it does get messy and it does get complicated. And that's the big question, setting a standard not just for Trump, but the future. And it's something that, just as you mentioned, Lulu, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson worried about when this case was being argued before the court in April.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: If someone with those kinds of powers could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes, I'm trying to understand what the disincentive is from turning the Oval Office into the seat of criminal activity in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Kara, assuming that were talking about qualified immunity, which means it's kind of questionable, will this change how future presidents behave? Will they have new concerns about, well, gee, this could be considered a private act, not an official act?

SWISHER: Maybe that's not such a bad thing? Maybe that's not so bad for presidents, so they can think a little harder about what they're doing. In the case of Trump, I just interviewed Brad Raffensperger, who was on that perfect.

WALLACE: The Georgia secretary of state.

SWISHER: The Georgia secretary of state. I think he thinks it was a crime. I think a lot of things -- and that should go to court, and it should be decided in a court of law, in a public court of law, which is the way it's going.

WALLACE: Jonah, do you think this will change how future presidents behave, or is this really just a Trump question?

GOLDBERG: I think it will probably change how future presidents behave. You could see a standard coming out of this that creates an incentive for presidents on their last day in office to just pardon themselves for all of their acts in office, which then creates its own incentive structure because they know they can get away with anything because they can pardon themselves. It gets these all sorts of crazy scenarios like that.

WALLACE: None of us are immune from another hike in the price of stamps, but we'll give you a reason you may still want to pay it. And we'll do it in the form of a question.

Plus, take out your phones. We're about to find out if you have the world's most annoying ringtone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:42:21] WALLACE: Once again, it's time to get our group's yea or nay on some big talkers. Up first, the Postal Service this week announced a new forever stamp honoring iconic "Jeopardy!" host Alex Trebek. Each stamp in the set is a "Jeopardy!" clue about Trebek who died in 2020. The stamps go on sale next month shortly after the price of all stamps jumps from 68 cents to 73. The postmaster general defends the hike, which is the sixth in the last five years, noting the number of letters sent each year has dropped in half in the past decade.

Kara, are you yea or nay on paying to send a letter through the mail with an Alex Trebek stamp on it?

SWISHER: I love Trebek. Who doesn't? But I haven't sent a letter in years. I don't send letters anymore. I do everything online.

WALLACE: And would you buy stamps?

SWISHER: Maybe the Trebek one.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You don't send Christmas cards?

SWISHER: I don't. Are you kidding? Are you crazy? No.

WALLACE: You don't ever send a personal --

SWISHER: I really don't, no.

WALLACE: You don't ever send a thank you note?

SWISHER: Have you gotten one yet? No.

WALLACE: I haven't done anything for you.

SWISHER: I get that.

(LAUGHTER)

SWISHER: That's the thing. Everybody is not sending letters and they're raising the prices. It doesn't sound like a very good business to me.

WALLACE: Jonah, would you consider with your fondness, I hope, for Alex Trebek -- who doesn't like --

GOLDBERG: National treasure.

WALLACE: Would it make you pay to send a letter through the mail rather than just send an email or a text?

GOLDBERG: Yes, I don't think the enticement of a Trebek stamp will get me to send a letter I otherwise wouldn't send. But I think the Post Office needs major overhaul. I don't blame them for raising the price of stamps in part because it's -- we have to decide whether we want this institution or not, and running it at a loss doesn't make a lot of sense.

WALLACE: Do you send letters?

GOLDBERG: From time to time, sure.

WALLACE: And would you --

GOLDBERG: I would surely use an Alex Trebek stamp.

WALLACE: And would you agree it's lovely to get a letter?

GOLDBERG: It's a wonderful thing.

WALLACE: I won't be doing this with Kara.

SWISHER: I don't want a letter from you.

WALLACE: Next, the anti-beauty contest for man's best friend. Meet Wild Thang -- I've been waiting to say that -- an eight-year-old Pekingese who was recently crowned the world's ugliest dog, and you can see why he's in the running. With a long tongue he can't keep in his mouth and crazy hair, which has never been cut. Organizers say the purpose of the contest is to encourage pet adoption and show all dogs are beautiful.

Lulu, are you yea or nay on wild thing being the ugliest dog? And what do you think of the idea of these kinds of contests?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: So I am a dog lover. I have two of my own. Jonah and I have that in common.

[10:45:00]

All dogs are beautiful, all dogs are perfect. And so therefore, I am thrilled by this. I also think anything fun like this, anything light like this is always a good thing. I mean, you know, ugly is beautiful, and it's not, you can be, as they say in French, a "jolie laide," a pretty ugly thing. And I love this dog. It's gorgeous.

WALLACE: OK, Wild Thang. Curt, where are you on Wild Thang and on these contests even existing?

MILLS: I don't really get it. The dog is fine. It's not particularly heinous looking in my view. He has a sort of strange face, but I would say in the contest, I don't think we need -- dogs are very sensitive beings. I don't think we need greater cruelty to animals on the planet.

WALLACE: He was a winner, and --

MILLS: I think he inferred the subtlety of the dog meeting here.

WALLACE: I have to say, we had an ugly dog in our family, not in my personal home, but in my extended family, and I didn't like getting anywhere near the door. He was ugly.

Finally, we all have our phones on silent right now, which may be a good thing, because one of us may have the worst ringtone. According to iPhone user, the least liked tone is something called "By The Seaside." Here's a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now one hater compared it to nails on a chalkboard. Jonah, I noticed you were kind of bobbing along to it. Are you yea or nay on "By The Seaside"? And what's your ringtone?

GOLDBERG: Mine is whatever the factory preset was. I do not -- I've never invested much in a ringtone virtue signaling of any kind. And that just makes me feel like I'm waiting for the people to finish their answers on "Jeopardy!" or something like that. It's one of those kind of gameshow --

WALLACE: So Alex Trebek, here we go. Kara, I would think you're particular about your ringtone.

SWISHER: That is the preset. That is old person in the theater doesn't know how to turn off their phone, phone tone. That's what it is.

I have "Jesus, Take the Wheel" by Carrie Underwood. It's great.

WALLACE: OK.

The panel is back with their takes on hot stories or what will be in the news before it's news. That is right after the break.

Is that something you can get, Carrie Underwood's "Take the Wheel"?

SWISHER: Yes. It's easy.

WALLACE: I mean, but is that something that is on the Apple --

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[10:52:04]

WALLACE: It's time for our panel's special takes on what's happening or predictions of what we should be looking out for. So Lulu, hit me with your best shot.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: This is the first time I think I've been first. I'm excited.

So it feels like 1,000 years ago in political time because so much has happened, but I would like to talk about Jamaal Bowman's loss. He is the representative from New York, part of the Squad, very left- leaning, and certainly very pro-Palestinian. He made a lot of mistakes in his district. He was very unpopular. He was defeated by a moderate. But the thing that really struck me and I don't think got a lot of attention is that this was the most expensive race in history. And one of the reasons was that -- because is -- was because of AIPAC. And --

WALLACE: Which is the pro-Israel lobby.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: The pro-Israel lobby group. And it really struck me that this was, I think, deeply problematic that a group that is advocating for a foreign country is putting so much money into a race. I think it would be equally problematic if a pro-Ukraine group was putting all that money into Lauren Boebert's race, for example. I just think that this kind of money and this kind of pressure on our local campaigns is wrong.

WALLACE: Curt, you're focused on the two big contests in France next month, which are obviously the Paris Olympics, but also the surprise snap election that Macron has called.

MILLS: Yes, it's sort of the population I'm in as I think the relative defender of rightwing populism on this panel, but I think Macron is poised to actually overperform the extremely low expectations of him. I don't think he called the election for no reason. I think if the right-wing opponents at the national rally do not win an outright majority, they won't control government. So this will feel like kind of a weird story in a week.

And additionally, the Olympics are going to be a big deal combined with the Tour de France next month. And I think Macron still has three more years and will look pretty strong, especially if there's a change in administration both in Britain and potentially in the United States. He's going to have greater leverage heading into the 2020s.

WALLACE: Kara, best shot?

SWISHER: Robo-taxis, I love them, Chris. I ride them all the time in San Francisco, and now everybody in San Francisco can ride them. They're also in Los Angeles in Phoenix.

WALLACE: This is a video that you took, and Lord knows I'm excited to see it. This is you going back to your home in San Francisco, correct?

SWISHER: Yes, that's right. So I'm riding up the hill. It's a hill on, I think that Sanchez Street. And the car is going up the hill and then pulling over near my house. It finds a safe space and pulls over.

WALLACE: So robo-taxis have been around. Why is this a big deal?

SWISHER: Because they haven't been around. They've been slow. These are without a person in the front, and so there's not that many. But now they're going out to the broad citizenry in San Francisco, Phoenix, and also testing in Los Angeles.

WALLACE: And do you take videos of all your robo-taxis?

SWISHER: Yes, I do. I do. I just do that.

WALLACE: Is that perhaps for a lawyer if something bad happens?

SWISHER: No, not at all. You know, I know people are worried about safety issues, as well they should be.

[10:55:01]

But the fact that matter is, people are really worse in many ways than driving cars. So eventually these will get it right.

WALLACE: That's my sort of watch word. People are really worse.

Jonah, bring us home?

GOLDBERG: I don't have Skynet running our cars for you, but I think that because Donald Trump is so buoyed, fairly or not, by his performance in the debate and thinks he's got the wind at his back, that gives him the opportunity to pick a riskier V.P. candidate than he otherwise would. So I think that going into the debate, I think there was a good chance it was going to be Rubio or Burgum. I think this helps J.D. Vance's chances.

WALLACE: I came home with a top adviser to Donald Trump flying back from Atlanta on Friday. J.D. Vance was his pick as well. It wasn't Donald Trump's pick but there we go.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: Gang, we want to thank you all for being here, and we thank you for spending part of your day with us. And we'll be right back here next week with a special July 4th holiday show, a little bit different. You won't want to miss it, and we'll see you then.

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