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The Chris Wallace Show

President-Elect Donald Trump Draws Controversy for Nominating FOX News Host Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense and Former Congressman Matt Gaetz as Attorney General; President-Elect Trump May Use Recess Appointments to Bypass Senate Hearings on Some Cabinet Nominees; Incoming Trump Administration's Possible Policy towards Israel-Hamas War and Iran Examined; Massachusetts Supreme Court Rules Engagement Ring Returned to Giver When Couple Broke Up Before Marriage; Senate Rules Prohibit Newly Elected West Virginia Republican Senator Jim Justice from Bringing His Bulldog onto Senate Floor; Reporting Indicates Kamala Harris Campaign Backed Out of Interview with Joe Rogan over Possible Backlash from Campaign Staff. Aired 10- 11a ET.

Aired November 16, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:34]

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, and welcome. Yep, I'm still here. As some of you may have heard, I've decided to leave CNN to pursue a future in new media. For those of you who are concerned, and thank you for your thoughtful notes, I decided to do this months ago and am excited to take on a new challenge. My only regret is leaving my feisty colleagues here on the panel and the wonderful team that puts all this together, and of course, all of you. I'll have more to say on my final show next week.

Now, let's get to the news and break down the big stories with some smart people. Today we're asking, after a series of controversial cabinet nominations, what do Donald Trump's picks say about his plans for a second term?

Then unofficial and unorthodox, why Trump is doing his own thing, even skipping FBI background checks, to get his team in place.

And later, keep it moving. Why a popular office trend may be bad for your health.

The panel is here and ready to go. So sit back, relax, and let's talk about it.

Up first, Donald Trump shaking up Washington more than two months before he takes office. The president-elect focused on filling top positions in his cabinet, naming loyalists who carry out his marching orders, but shocking officials in both parties.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I appreciate very much a transition that's so smooth. It will be as smooth as it can get.

WALLACE: Donald Trump, vowing a smooth transition that's been anything but after making a rapid-fire series of nominations that have set off alarm bells across Washington. Conservative firebrand Congressman Matt Gaetz for attorney general.

REP. MATT GAETZ, (R-FL): I am the most investigated man in the United States Congress.

WALLACE: The Justice Department dropped the case, but the House Ethics Committee was still investigating allegations of sexual misconduct and illicit drug use when Gaetz resigned this week.

For defense secretary, FOX News personality Pete Hegseth, who served with distinction in combat but has no experience in global affairs.

JEH JOHNSON, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Being a cable news host does not necessarily qualify you to be secretary of defense.

WALLACE: And anti-vaxxer Robert Kennedy Jr. to head Health and Human Services.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Their entire department is like the nutrition departments at FDA that are -- that have to go.

WALLACE: An avalanche of shocking appointments that has the newly minted Senate Republican leader John Thune arguing this is what Americans voted for.

SEN. JOHN THUNE, (R-SD): President Trump had a huge mandate. The people in this country want change.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WALLACE: Here with me today, podcaster, journalist, and author Kara Swisher, Reihan Salam, president of the Manhattan Institute and "National Review" contributing editor, "New York Times" journalist and "The Interview" podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and conservative pollster and "New York Times" opinion writer Kristen Soltis Anderson. Welcome back, everyone.

Kristen, what do Trump's picks so far signal?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CONSERVATIVE POLLSTER AND "NEW YORK TIMES" CONTRIBUTING OPINION WRITER: You know that phrase people use in reality TV? I'm not here to make friends. Donald Trump's not here to make friends in his second term. I think he remembers that his first time around he picked a lot of people who were in some cases a little bit more exotic a pick, in some cases a little more establishment. And he felt like he was stymied when trying to get his agenda in place. This time around, he is not interested in whether he's picking people off or not. He's picking people that he likes.

WALLACE: John Bolton, who served as national security adviser to Trump in his first term, had this take on his appointments now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: What Trump wants, I think, are yes men and yes women who don't give him the knowledge, the information, and the range of potential decisions that he could make. They just, they listen to what he says and they say, yes, sir, and away they go to implement it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Lulu, if Bolton is right and that Trump wants no pushback, he wants, to use his phrase, yes men, why didn't he pick people who were just as loyal but not so inflammatory?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, "NEW YORK TIMES" JOURNALIST AND PODCAST HOST: He wants to basically destroy government in the way that we know it. And I actually don't mean that in a negative way. Some people hear that and think that it's negative. But I mean there's a huge movement on the right that wants to remake the administrative state, as they call it, and really wants to shake things up. Donald Trump now thinks he has a mandate. That's one reason. It's the sort of philosophical reason.

[10:05:04]

The other reason is that by putting these people there who are very inflammatory, he is forcing the only check on his power, which is going to be, if you can believe it, Republicans in Congress, to early and quickly bend the knee. And if he can force this through Congress without any blowback, then he knows that whatever he tries later on is going to be easy sailing.

WALLACE: So you think part of this is to make picks that are purposely unpalatable and say, eat it?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yep.

WALLACE: Do you do you agree with that, Reihan?

REIHAN SALAM, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, I think that --

WALLACE: We'll get to the specifics in a moment.

SALAM: Of course, of course. Lulu's first observation strikes me as exactly right. For example, Pete Hegseth is someone who is a television personality. Why is he being picked as defense secretary? I think the argument is that we are going to need, the Trump team, that is, he believes that his team is going to need a very effective communicator because they're going to be very aggressive. They're going to look to actually sack generals. They're going to look to seek big, ambitious, structural changes when it comes to defense contracting, the defense industrial base. So I think that he absolutely wants big, big change, and he thinks this is the team that's going to get it for him. WALLACE: All right, so let's talk about that. The secretary of

defense, overseas, 2.8 million civilian and military personnel, and a budget of $842 billion. Pete Hegseth has never run any large organization, but he has plenty of opinions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS HOST: Any general that was involved, general, admiral, whatever, that was involved in any of the DEI woke -- has got to go.

I'm straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles.

Diversity is not our strength, Hugh. I mean, this is the kind of thing these generals peddle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Pete Hegseth, Kara?

KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "PIVOT" AND "ON": Yes, I have a cold. I'm really sorry.

Yes, it's like the "Star Wars" cantina here. I don't know who is going to come up next. He's doing it all for show and to create a TV show in a way. It feels a little like "The Apprentice" to me. And he just wants -- he's going to make all the decisions anyway. So he has all these people.

WALLACE: I have to say, you're doing a pretty good at Robert F. Kennedy Jr impression.

SWISHER: Thank you very much, except I do vaccines, and --

WALLACE: Well, I mean, doesn't that bother you, Reihan? The fact that this is a guy -- I mean, it's a huge -- it's the biggest organization in America. So why would you put a guy who has never run anything? Look, let me be clear. Pete Hegseth served in the military with distinction, received two Bronze Stars. I'm in no way denigrating his service. But this is a job, a big job for somebody who knows how to run a big organization.

SALAM: It's a really big organization. And it's an organization where that deputy, the undersecretary of defense for policy, there are a lot of roles there that are going to be really important when it comes to the nitty gritty of how that place is governed. The question is whether you need an effective communicator who is aligned at the top of that organization. Pete Hegseth is not the person I would have picked, but I do believe that they do have a big communications challenge ahead, and I think that that's what he felt he did not have during his first presidency, effective communicators who could take heat and then advance a really different, radical argument.

WALLACE: The counterargument, that what he didn't have in his first term were people who would bend the knee or salute smartly and say, yes sir. I mean, we know how many times Defense Secretary Jim Mattis pushed back on Trump initiatives in national security. Is that what he's looking for?

SALAM: Well, another view is that Secretary Mattis was someone who is a creature of the Defense Department, of the defense establishment, and someone who is not looking to disrupt it but rather someone who is looking to protect it from what he saw as a disruptive president. Needless to say, from the perspective of that president, he didn't love that idea.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Can I ask a question here, though, and I really am curious about this. How -- I understand the need to disrupt and destroy, to, you know, that this is the mandate. But how is this going to protect America? The Defense Department is very crucial, I have a limited understanding having been a foreign correspondent for most of my career, in actually protecting Americans and their lives?

ANDERSON: So it's a great question. And I think part of the reason why somebody like Pete Hegseth gets picked, even though he is mostly known to viewers of this show, probably, as a TV host, is not just that he's loyal, but that he's aligned. I don't think it's just that Donald Trump is picking people who are empty vessels who will just say, yes, sir, whatever you want. Pete Hegseth is somebody who has a very extensive public record of what he thinks about defense, the need to refocus the Pentagon on being the most lethal war fighting machine in the world. And so I don't think it's just that he's somebody who will say, yes, sir to Donald Trump. I think it's that Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth agree on what the Pentagon ought to look like.

WALLACE: All right, one more. Matt Gaetz for attorney general?

SWISHER: Yes, I don't know. I'm so glad I have laryngitis right now because the things I could say. I think these are all unctuous toadies, every one of them, almost completely. And they'll do what he says. And that's really pretty much it. And Donald Trump will run everything from the White House. And he wants utter control, which is why he's doing the same thing with the Senate. He wants complete control of the entire process. And I understand that they're aligned, but this guy, come on. Stop, stop.

[10:10:05]

WALLACE: We're going to get to the process in the Senate in the next segment. But just stop just to finish this up, Reihan, are you comfortable with Matt Gaetz, with all of his baggage, with all of his opposition, as the chief law enforcement officer of the United States?

SALAM: It ultimately doesn't matter what I think. It matters what Republican senators think. And my guess --

WALLACE: But I'm asking my guess because you're the guest on this.

SWISHER: Come on, Reihan. You have to say it.

SALAM: I'm a realist here, that's my role on the show. And what I will say is that --

WALLACE: You sound like one of those senators, incidentally, ducking the question.

SALAM: Well, what I'll say is that Republican senators, there are a lot of them who have serious misgivings, and there are a lot of them who are going to want to fire a shot across the bow and demonstrate the independence of their branch of government this time around. So I think that that's going to be a big concern for President-elect Trump and for Matt Gaetz.

WALLACE: All right, we're going to get right to that. The next step for all those picks is Senate confirmation, or is it? The Donald Trump sized monkey wrench which could change how the president-elect gets his cabinet.

Then, conflict resolution -- we'll break down the early signs of how the new administration plans to bring peace to the Middle East.

And later, costly decision, the court ruling about breakups which may ring true.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Senator Kennedy, what do you think of Matt Gaetz as attorney general?

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY, (R-LA): Happy Thanksgiving.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS, (D-ME): I was shocked that he has been nominated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Donald Trump's pick for attorney general getting a cold reception from his own party. The nomination of Congressman Matt Gaetz shocked, stunned, and had Republican lawmakers gasping. But Trump may try to shield Gaetz and some of his other controversial picks from facing tough confirmation votes. In a Truth Social post, Trump wrote, "The Senate majority leader must agree to recess appointments," meaning the Senate would go out of session so Trump could appoint anyone he wants without a confirmation vote." And there are reports Trump's transition team is bypassing FBI background checks for some of his cabinet picks. People close to the process say they're using private companies to do the vetting instead.

Now, the Constitution is pretty clear about the Senate's role here. The president "shall nominate, and by and with the advice and the consent of the Senate, shall appoint -- officers of the United States." There is a provision, if the Senate happens to be in recess. But Trump is talking about something different here -- the Senate purposely going on recess so he can avoid confirmation fights.

Reihan, will the Senate vote on Trump's picks, or will it take a recess and a pass on at least some of the more controversial ones?

SALAM: I believe there's going to be a vote, and I believe that --

WALLACE: On every one?

SALAM: Yes, I believe so. I might be wrong, but my view is that there is a large enough bloc of Republican senators who are very determined to make their voices heard when it comes to these appointments. And I think that we're going to hear from them.

WALLACE: What do you think of the president's idea, well, just go on recess and I can do these appointments on my own, and you don't have to take a tough vote?

SALAM: Well, I believe there's a reason we have this process, to have the advice and consent of the Senate. I think it actually strengthens the legitimacy of your cabinet and of your administration. And I think that it's a very wise process that the framers devised. And I think that he would be wise to stick with it.

WALLACE: There's a sharp difference of opinion among Republican senators on this issue. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN, (R-TX): I don't think we should be circumventing the Senate's responsibilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Senate should be here to do its work.

SEN. RICK SCOTT, (R-FL): Well, I believe in recess appointments. So I was very clear. And, you know, I think both John Cornyn and John Thune committed to recess appointments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Lulu, do you think the Senate will give up one of its main constitutional provisions, one of its main sources of power to act as a check on any president, not just Donald Trump?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think the problem here that that Republican senators are facing is that Donald Trump is very popular in their states, some of them. And so when you hear a John Thune or others, they are really reflecting what they see to be the will of the voters in that state. And so I think, I agree with Reihan that I think it's a terrible idea not only because it flies in the face of the Constitution, but if you think at some point in the future when there might be a different administration, what precedent does this set for when the opposing party is in power?

WALLACE: Do you think that Republican senators, enough of them, will stand up to the president and say, no?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't, I don't. I don't think so. I think they will do what President Trump wants them to do. And, you know, and I think we will see Matt Gaetz and others in the positions that he has nominated them for.

WALLACE: One of Trump's arguments is the other party in the Senate holds up nominations. Here's what Republicans did in 2021 with key Biden nominees. Lloyd Austin was confirmed as defense secretary two days after Biden took office, but for Attorney General Merrick Garland, it took 49 days.

Kara, one way or another, do you think that all of Trump's picks, either through recess or vote, will get through the Senate?

[10:20:04]

SWISHER: Maybe not Matt Gaetz, but I think everybody else possibly. It depends on whether that report is released and what it says. But I think Trump will get exactly what he wants, and the Senate will realize they are under his thumb. They are. Also unctuous toadies, everyone is an unctuous toady.

WALLACE: But you think they might block Matt Gaetz?

SWISHER: They might block it if there's enough pressure brought to bear around that report from the House about his behavior with drugs and underage girls.

WALLACE: Yes. And of course, that's the question. This is the Ethics Committee is doing -- has done an investigation and would have put it out except Gaetz just retired from Congress. And now there's a question as to whether the House Ethics Committee will share it with the Senate. And that's not clear.

Kristen, do you agree, whether it's Gaetz or Hegseth or RFK Jr., that somebody will be blocked, or do you think they all get through?

ANDERSON: I think if somebody is going to be blocked, it's going to be Gaetz. And the reason why I pick him instead of the others is I think these senators want to get to yes on as many as possible. I don't think you're going to see a bunch of these nominees go down. And I especially don't think you'll see nominees go down on policy grounds. Yes, there are some Republicans that have grave national security concerns around Tulsi Gabbard and some of the positions she's had in the past.

WALLACE: This is a former congressman --

ANDERSON: A former congressman who --

WALLACE: -- who was appointed Director of National Intelligence.

ANDERSON: Yes, and who ran in the Democratic primary in 2020, I would note. And so this has been a very interesting journey. RFK Jr. has some very prominent pro-choice positions. I don't think that pro-life senators are going to use that as a reason to hold him up.

I think the reason the Gaetz one is different is that it's not about policy. It is about character and fitness for the office. And I also suspect that for some of these senators, remember, some of them will not be up for office again until Donald Trump is long off into the sunset.

WALLACE: Or maybe not up for office again, period. ANDERSON: Period. And so that is why I do think the United States Senate likes to guard it's power a little more jealously than the House. And so it wouldn't surprise me, actually, if one of these nominations went down. And if it's one, it's Gaetz.

WALLACE: Reihan, big picture. What do you think Trump's call for the Senate just to go on recess, let my nominees go through, Trump's decision that he's not going to use FBI background checks for some, we don't know who, but for some of his appointees, what do you think that says about how he plans to do business over the next four years?

SALAM: I think that he wants to run an activist administration. I think that he wants to have wide authority, and he wants to have a team that is very ideologically aligned and very loyal. I think that that's not really in doubt. The question is whether or not he has made the right picks in every instance to ensure that he has people who are going to be effective in their roles. And part of being effective is having allies among Republicans in Congress, including some of those members of the Senate who are folks who are very jealous of their power and authority and are going to guard it ferociously.

WALLACE: Lulu, what do you think these two specific things were? He basically seems to be trying to do away with some of the guardrails that have traditionally protected the country, the idea of checks and balances, the Senate advises and consents on appointments, the FBI does thorough background checks, that he wants to do away with those, what do you think that says?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: What I think that says is that they're setting up a fight early because they have a big plan, an ambitious plan for when they actually get into office to really blitz all of these institutions and, you know, put a lot of things in place, a lot of executive orders. I've heard at least 100 executive orders are ready to go right off the bat. And I think what you're going to see is, again, this idea of the system is overwhelmed. Already we're just seeing just with the nominations the system is being overwhelmed. And imagine what's going to happen right when he gets into power. The system is going to be even more overwhelmed. So if you start that process now, by the time he gets into office, the resistance is going to be less.

WALLACE: One of the first big items on Donald Trump's plate, the Middle East. Up next, how his pick for ambassador to Israel could signal how he plans to deal with the conflicts there.

Also ahead, no dogs allowed, the Senate rule that's dividing Washington in a good humored way.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:28:49]

WALLACE: As change is coming to Washington, very little is changing in the Middle East. Israel this week ignoring the U.S. call for more aid to Gaza and escalating attacks on its neighbors, as one of Donald Trump's picks for diplomacy in the region is raising questions. (BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

WALLACE: Israel expanding its military footprint in the Middle East, exchanging missile fire in Lebanon, launching strikes into Syria, and continuing its offensive in Gaza. With the threat of a regional war looming, Donald Trump's Mideast policy coming into focus.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars.

WALLACE: Picking former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee as the U.S. ambassador to Israel. Huckabee already facing criticism for past comments.

MIKE HUCKABEE, FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: There's really no such thing as a Palestinian.

WALLACE: And dismissing a two state solution.

HUCKABEE: There is no such thing as the West Bank. It's Judea and Samaria.

WALLACE: But Huckabee's selection has also brought renewed hope for the families of the hostages.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will do everything in his power to get the hostages back.

WALLACE: Who are pleading with Joe Biden and Donald Trump to work together on a solution.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have seen there's been a lot that hasn't been united, but they are united in the release of these hostages.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

[10:30:03]

WALLACE: Lulu, how strongly do you think Trump will favor Israel over the Palestinians?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You're joking right? I mean, if you look at the people who have been nominated for these roles, these are not people who will occupy the traditional role of the United States, which is to mediate between the Israelis and the Palestinians, even though, of course, the United States is one of Israel's largest backers and benefactors to the tune of billions of dollars of aid every year.

So I think what you're going to see is an accelerated push inside Israel to annex the settlements in the West Bank, something that is considered illegal under international law. You're going to see a sort of real unity between this administration and the administration of Bibi Netanyahu and their plans to probably reoccupy Gaza. You're going to see things that historically have been completely taboo happen, I think, in an accelerated fashion.

WALLACE: Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman this week condemned the Israeli offensive in Gaza in the strongest terms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, SAUDI CROWN PRINCE (through translator): The Kingdom reiterates its condemnation and absolute refusal of the collective genocide committed by Israel against the brotherly Palestinian people, which has left more than 150,000 martyrs and injured, most of whom are women and children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Kristen, do you agree with Lulu that basically Trump is going to give Netanyahu a blank check?

ANDERSON: I think Trump is going to be a very strong supporter of Israel and its causes. As Lulu noted, you have, whether it's the appointment of Elise Stefanik as U.N. ambassador, I mean, a number of his appointments have been very, very, very strongly pro-Israel individuals.

At the same time, Donald Trump when it comes to the Middle East wants to be someone who solves things. Coming out of his first term, he was very proud of the Abraham Accords. And so in some ways, is this -- is there the possibility of a Nixon goes to China, like, because Donald Trump is so vocally pro-Israel, could, ironically, that be the reason why he's able to broker something? It's unclear, but --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- at least right now. I mean, this isn't the Middle East that he had when he was president the last time. This is a Middle East that has been broken by the Gaza war. This is a Middle East that is currently in conflict. And this is a Middle East where you have Bibi Netanyahu and a very, very extreme government in Israel that has big plans for really pushing the envelope of what they can do there.

WALLACE: But I want to pick up on what you were saying Kristen. Reihan, you know, with this idea of Nixon goes to China, sometimes it's the more conservative guy who has the political leeway. Do you think it's possible that because he's seen as so pro-Israel that Trump might have more leeway -- you heard what the hostage families were saying there -- more leeway both with Hamas, or the Palestinians in Gaza, and Israel to get a hostage deal?

SALAM: Here's what I know. To the extent the Middle East is broken, it's because Iran broke it, and it's because the Biden administration decided to break with maximum pressure, decided to break with the posture of containing Iranian aggression, and instead actually wound up empowering Iran in the region. So if there's one thing I'm pretty confident of, it's that President-elect Trump is not going to seek to be buddy-buddy with Iran in light of the fact that the Iranians were literally trying to kill him during this last presidential campaign.

I think that he's going to ensure that Israel but also the Saudis, also the Gulf states that have their own reasons to want to check the expansion of Iran's imperial designs on the region, I think is going to back up those forces in the region. WALLACE: But, Kara, there has been criticism that that Biden was kind

of in a weak middle. He wasn't tough enough on Israel. He wasn't pushing the Palestinians enough. Do you think it's possible that Trump will be able to pull off a ceasefire and a hostage deal in a way that Biden was unable?

SWISHER: I guess if they're scared of him, if Iran is scared of him, certainly. And if he's tougher on Iran, I would agree being tougher on Iran is probably more appropriate here. That said, he's a huge backer of Bibi Netanyahu, so I think if I was in Gaza, I'd be rather worried about the fate of --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, I think there's going to be a hostage deal. I don't think that there's any question of that. I think there will probably be a cease fire. The question, as always, is what comes after that? What does it mean for the region? And are we talking about a lasting peace, or are we talking about the obliteration of Palestine and the Palestinians?

WALLACE: All right, we're going to take a little bit of a turn here, because there's the domestic politics of all this. Wayne County in Michigan has the country's largest Arab American population, but here were the results election night in the city of Dearborn, where almost half the residents are of Arab descent. Kamala Harris got just over one third of the vote. Four years ago, Biden carried Dearborn three to one. Lulu, did those Arab American voters who voted against Harris because they were unhappy with Biden and ended up, not that they did it by themselves, electing Donald Trump, did they make a mistake?

[10:35:00]

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I have many friends who made that choice this election who are of Arab descent, and the reason that they did it was because they felt that they could not vote for this administration, and they feel that it really doesn't matter who is in power in the United States because both sides betray them in different ways. And so their desire was to punish the administration that's currently sitting. And in that sense, they feel like they didn't make a mistake. Of course, if you are wanting to help the Palestinians, one could argue that perhaps they did make a mistake because I don't think this administration that is incoming is going to be particularly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

WALLACE: Reihan, I understand that Arab Americans, like everybody else, votes for a variety of reasons. But to the degree that they were motivated, we certainly knew that was one of the motivations. They wanted to punish the Biden-Harris administration for its support of Israel. Are they going to like Donald Trump's policy towards the Palestinians any more?

SALAM: I certainly think that some of them will welcome the idea of decisive, strong, firm leadership that will bring an end to chaos and conflict in the region.

WALLACE: But even if it's -- even if it's, as Lulu says, with the annexation of parts of the West Bank, with reoccupation of Gaza? SALAM: Yes, I do believe that there are a lot of folks who want peace

rather than war and chaos in the region, and they understand that it's not necessarily going to be a straight line to exactly what Hamas or the Palestinian establishment wants, because those paths have failed.

WALLACE: Quick answer?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't know. What do you want me to say to that? I mean, I think that that's not true, but I don't speak for the Arab American community. I think they do want the end of war, and I do think they want the end of people dying. But beyond that, there is a real desire for a true and lasting peace which, you know, respects the path of Palestinian statehood. So, you know, are you looking at the long game or the short game? That's always the question in politics.

WALLACE: And in the Middle East and global affairs.

A very different kind of conflict just decided by a court could end a decade's long debate about what happens when a couple breaks up.

Also ahead, stand down -- why experts now say you should end a popular office trend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:42:05]

WALLACE: Once again, it's time to get our groups yea or nay on some big talkers.

Up first, you may have heard the phrase "sitting is the new smoking." It helped lead to the standing desk craze in recent years where people moved their desks up and down all day instead of saying staying seated from 9:00 to 5:00. Now there's new research that prolonged standing may also be bad for you, causing circulation problems.

So what's the answer? Experts say it's movement, suggesting it's best to alternate between sitting standing and brief walks to break up the day. Go figure.

Reihan, are you yea or nay on the standing desk?

SALAM: I am a big believer in taking walks while you're making phone calls. And also, I'm small enough, Chris, that I can actually stand at a sitting desk, so it works out perfectly. I have a little stack of books under my laptop. It works great for me. So I win either way.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: Wow, this is the man who doesn't drive and goes to the grocery store with a wheelbarrow, and he stands in a sitting desk.

SALAM: I do things my own way, Chris.

WALLACE: Kara, it turns out the global market for standing desks is estimated to reach $12 billion by 2032. Are you buying or selling? SWISHER: I hate standing desks, and I went out with someone who had

them, and probably one of the reasons we broke up. I think they're ridiculous. You look silly.

WALLACE: With all due respect, and I'm not short-shaming you, you could probably stand at a --

SWISHER: Funny, I have a desk that goes up and down, and sometimes I stand there. But you know, with the treadmill underneath it, those people, I have no time for that.

WALLACE: I know somebody who had that.

SWISHER: Yes.

WALLACE: We'll talk about that afterwards.

Next, a court settling the return the ring debate. The Massachusetts Supreme Court decided a $70,000 engagement ring should be returned to the man who bought it after he and his fiancee broke up. That reversed a 65-year precedent which said the giver only gets it back if they're not at fault for the breakup. It turns out Massachusetts isn't alone -- 29 states now have similar laws that engagement rings must be returned. Lulu, are you yea or nay on returning the engagement ring if the engagement and wedding are called off?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Nay. This is absolutely ridiculous, and the person should get to keep the ring. And as far as I'm concerned, this is another norm-busting moment in which all these rules are being thrown out the window. And I just feel like the whole entire point of giving the ring is that it is a gift, OK? This isn't like an investment. It isn't a car loan. It's a gift.

WALLACE: Kristen, let me tell you, because I have to say, the Massachusetts court's reasoning on this seemed to me to be unimpeachable. It said it's too hard to say who is responsible for a breakup. There's always two sides to that story. And they say yes, it is a gift, but it's a conditional gift on the basis that you're going to get married. Is the court right, give back the ring.

[10:45:00]

ANDERSON: I actually do think this is right. I think in an instance where the giver is clearly at fault, though, I still do think we should have some wiggle room in the law where if the giver is a cad and does something that causes the engagement to break up --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And then he's like, give me back my ring.

ANDERSON: Then I think you don't give it back.

WALLACE: Maybe it's the recipient's fault. But anyway, we're moving on to one other issue.

(LAUGHTER) WALLACE: A rare yea or nay from the world of politics. This week, newly elected West Virginia Republican Senator Jim Justice arrived in Washington for orientation where he was informed he could not bring his beloved bulldog named Baby Dog onto the Senate floor. Justice is well known for taking Baby Dog everywhere, including on stage at this year's Republican convention. But the Senate rules are only service dogs, not pets, are allowed on the floor. Lulu, are you yea or nay on banning Baby Dog?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, I'm a yea on banning Baby Dog. I am a I'm a huge dog lover. I love dogs. But if were talking about, you know, John Fetterman can't wear his shorts and all this other stuff, isn't there supposed to be decorum? And aren't there rules? And the rules say only service dogs. And so I don't care how cute Baby Dog is. Baby Dog stays in a corner.

WALLACE: Reihan, Baby Dog is a celebrity in West Virginia. He is part of newly elected Senator Jim Justice's brand. Are you as hard-hearted as Lulu?

SALAM: I love the people of West Virginia, but I hate the idea of filthy animals making a mess in our nation's capital. Look, you know, the carpets used to be stained with tobacco juice. We do not want to go back to those days.

WALLACE: Let me simply say, calling Baby Dog filthy is a crime against humanity, and you may direct all of your emails and tweets to said Reihan.

The panel is back with their takes on hot stories or what will be in the news before it's news. Thats right after the break.

Baby dog is a filthy animal?

SALAM: Look, you don't know --

ANDERSON: You deserve everything that's coming your way.

(LAUGHTER)

SALAM: Is the senator going to pick up after his dog if the dog makes a mess?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:40]

WALLACE: It's time for our panel's special takes on what's happening or predictions of what we should be looking out for. Kristen, hit me with your best shot?

ANDERSON: So we've spent a lot of time on this show over the last few weeks talking about Joe Rogan and the importance of going on podcasts in the political ecosystem. And this week there were reports that actually the Harris campaign had really been in some advanced talks with the Rogan folks, but ultimately both for logistical reasons, but also because of a potential staff revolt, Joe Rogan was not able to interview Kamala Harris. I think this will be one of the many things on the Democratic side for which there are recriminations in the coming weeks.

WALLACE: Talk about snowflakes, right?

Kara, you are focused on your friend Elon Musk's new project.

SWISHER: He is my friend.

WALLACE: I said that ironically.

SWISHER: Yes, I got it. It's called the Department of Government Efficiency, and I've renamed it the Department of Grandstanding Edgelords. I don't think anything is going to happen here. It is a stunt. We've had the Grace Commission, every single president has done this, including Ronald Reagan with the Grace Commission where he was going to drain the swamp. And it seems to me the swamp is still here.

WALLACE: Incidentally, talking about breaking down guardrails, the Trump team is talking about, well, once, because it would call for government cuts normally you have to go through Congress. They're saying, well, maybe we can just do it and cut Congress out.

Reihan, best shot?

SALAM: Elise Stefanik, whom President-elect Trump has nominated to be the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., is a rising political star, and this is going to be her biggest stage. Some of you will recall that back in the 1970s, Daniel Patrick Moynihan was the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., where he made a bold defense of the United States, of western values, and of the people of Israel. And I believe that Stefanik is going to be a big, big winner from this administration.

WALLACE: Do you see no opportunism in Stefanik's flip from Trump critic, strong critic back in 2015, 16, to now being a diehard supporter?

SALAM: I think that her conversion on that is entirely genuine. But more to the point, I think she's an incredibly talented, tenacious politician.

WALLACE: She was the one leading the interrogation of those college presidents. She got a couple of them fired for kind of pitiful answers on the question of antisemitism. So she'll be effective. There's no question about that.

Lulu, take us home.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I am taking us home with nothing in the political sphere, and simply happy, happy, happy news about Thanksgiving. This year, your Thanksgiving turkey is going to be two percent cheaper. It doesn't sound like a lot, but in a period of rising prices, every little bit helps. And so munch your turkey with joy. Cook as big a turkey as you want because it's going to be a little bit cheaper this year. And we can sit around the table and not talk about politics. WALLACE: But as you pointed out, or as we discussed in an earlier show, people prefer the sides to the turkey.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Not me. That wasn't me. I like my turkey. I like it big, and I like it basted.

SWISHER: Oh, wow.

WALLACE: Big and basted.

SWISHER: OK, then.

WALLACE: All right, well, before we go, I have a best shot of my own. A year ago, I interviewed musical wonder Jon Batiste from my show "Who's Talking?" Batiste is known for bridging musical genres, so I asked him to show me how he does it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

[10:55:01]

JON BATISTE, MUSICIAN: You know the blues.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now, imagine our delight when Jon let us know that moment inspired his latest album. It's called "Beethoven Blues," and it puts a twist on classics such as Beethoven's Symphony Number Five.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: You can buy or stream "Beethoven Blues" wherever you get your music, and I am proud to have been a part of it.

Gang, thank you all for being here. And thank you for spending part of your day with us. We'll see you right back here next week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)