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Dr. Drew
Day Seven of Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 01, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
The Anthony trial sparks a literal stampede when observers charge the courtroom. And Casey`s brother Lee takes the stand, the man the defense says molested her. His behavior today raised some eyebrows, including mine. And a family insider, Casey`s former attorney, has the answers to this question, right here: Is she mentally ill?
Let`s get going.
It is day seven of the Casey Anthony murder trial. Casey`s brother Lee takes the stand. His testimony wasn`t very emotional, but still significant.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today, Lee Anthony seemed to focus on the family dynamic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are Casey`s older brother. Is that correct?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: That is correct. She told me that mother had thrown it in her face that Casey was an unfit mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lee, he really maintained his composure, talked about the timeline, lies that Casey told, the excuses she gave.
ANTHONY: She told me she was in Jacksonville. Well, I knew it was a lie. Nothing was making sense to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell in Casey`s car --
ANTHONY: The smell, it was very potent, very strong.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Whenever you smell it, it`s something you never forget.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell of decomposition.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Lee answered the questions, but what I want to know, what can he tell us about his relationship with Casey? What type of bond did they really have? Is Lee perhaps trying to protect his sister? I think his subdued demeanor today was a little bit unusual. He seemed a bit reluctant.
Remember, Casey made allegations that Lee sexual abused her. You would think he would have a lot of feelings about that. And I have been speculating there may have been some kind of sexual abuse going on here, and certainly they brought it up in their defense.
But the type of pathology that we seem to be seeing in Casey -- disassociation, engaging in violent behaviors, you know, crazy relationships, and perhaps alleged drug abuse, this sort of thing -- those sorts of behaviors come from chronic severe abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment and neglect. And no one has really made that case so far.
All we`ve heard is that Casey had -- maybe she woke up one night and someone had messed with her clothing, and she think it was her brother. And maybe her dad did the same thing.
I`m telling you, in patients of mine that have been engaged in the kinds of behaviors that we`ve seen Casey doing, and have been sexually abused, they will say, oh, yes, it was profound, it was chronic, it was awful. I have not heard anything like that yet, so at this point, that sexual abuse defense doesn`t really pass the sniff test.
Tonight, we`re going to go inside the minds of moms who kill. Does Casey fit the profile?
The defense talks about Casey`s multiple imaginary friends, and her brother Lee talks about her continuous lying. He also talked about the sick smell coming from her car. This is something that`s been mentioned. And he gave us a peek into the Anthonys` -- the Anthonys` -- let`s call it twisted family dynamics.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: My mother had also referenced Caylee as being a mistake, but a great mistake or the best mistake that Casey has ever made.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you asked your sister, "Why won`t you allow us to see Caylee?" what do you recall her saying? What did you say? What did you tell Detective Edwards that she said?
LEE ANTHONY: I told Detective Edwards that she said -- I`m paraphrasing -- because maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go straight to my guests, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Also, I have former FBI criminal profiler Candice DeLong. And host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smyth. He joins us from outside the courtroom.
Ryan, let`s begin with you.
Lee`s behavior during the testimony seemed to surprise a lot of people. Tell me about that.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Oh, it really did, because it was conflicted. And the interesting thing, Dr. Drew, is a lot of times when he was asked about the conversation he had with Casey Anthony, when they found out Caylee was missing, he seemed to forget a lot of those details. And those were such important details to this case, so the lawyer had to keep reminding him of what he said.
So I think the big thing you can take away from Lee`s behavior is conflicted. Just didn`t want to say anything bad necessarily, it seems, against his sister, Casey, especially when it pertains to that special conversation that they had.
PINSKY: Wow. So it seems like, again, that sort of sense of covering up.
Lee talked about trying to track down his sister at nightclubs after she had been out of touch for several days. He says he offered to watch the baby, but the answer was no.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did your sister say about getting Caylee, when you could get Caylee?
LEE ANTHONY: Tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it always tomorrow?
LEE ANTHONY: It seemed that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you offer to go get Caylee that night?
LEE ANTHONY: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you say to your sister? And what was your suggestion?
LEE ANTHONY: I could go get Caylee. I could have my roommate at the time go get Caylee. There was in my mind no excuse why anybody couldn`t go get Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Candice. I want to go to you. I have got a million questions from a profiling standpoint.
If she had done this thing, if she had killed a baby, do you think she would have been able to go out partying at the clubs knowing her daughter was dead?
CANDICE DELONG, FMR. FBI CRIMINAL PROFILER: Yes. There are types of killers that they have no sense of empathy whatsoever. "Sociopath" would be the term. And they could go out and have a good meal after they killed someone that was their own offspring.
PINSKY: But, Candice, let`s sort of set the stage for what -- we`re talking about really sociopath -- or really psychopathic killers at that point. And usually those people have a chronic history of abusing animals, of severe maltreatment of other children when they`re kids.
I mean, there`s usually a lifelong pattern in those kinds of individuals. Are there not?
DELONG: Well, for a certain type of killer, there is. But generally speaking, when we see mothers kill their own children, and then go out partying -- and we have seen this kind of thing before, where they don`t seem to have any remorse -- it wasn`t necessarily -- it doesn`t necessarily have to be that they were tortured in their childhood from sex abuse and that they became torturers.
Sometimes it is as simple as they are narcissistic, they lack empathy, the world is all about them, and they`re glad the child is gone because now they can do whatever they want. A couple of killers that come to mind, Diane Downs and Susan Smith. Their children were inconvenient for them to have fun.
PINSKY: Well, now, in my reading of the literature and in interacting with these types of people, I have had a few of them in my career, and usually the more common thing is a psychotic state, like a severe depressive state, or somebody with schizophrenia, who actually, in their distorted thinking, believes they are having a mercy killing, and actually will kill the most loved child first. They typically will go into a kind of fugue state, notify authorities that they have just done this. If you remember the woman down in Texas, I`m blanking on her name right now --
DELONG: Andrea Yates, yes.
PINSKY: Right. And then a day later, they became suicidal. That`s sort of one time. That`s clearly not the case here.
Then there are, as you said, people who are -- sort of accidentally kill kids, sort of fatal mistreatment -- or fatal maltreatment, right? Is this more what you`re talking about here?
DELONG: Well, one of the things that we often see when a child is murdered is, first of all, the vast majority of the time it is one of the parents that did it. But sometimes what we see -- we can`t know this in Caylee`s case, but we know she was murdered -- what we see is a child who maybe dies from a skull fracture.
What happened was mom or dad got way too angry with them, did not control themselves, and they hit the child, and they hit the child too hard. The child accidentally dies. It`s not premeditated murder.
Most parents pick up the phone and call 911, or they may lie and say the child rolled off the bed while they were sleeping. But they don`t go out and party and continue to lie about the child`s whereabouts. They don`t.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.
Now, in the past, when Lee, the brother, was in the courtroom, he would send sort of kind messages to Casey. Check this out. When he was being deposed, he mouthed, "I love you" to his sister last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please tell the court your name.
LEE ANTHONY: Lee Alexander Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m assuming you weren`t speaking to me just now.
LEE ANTHONY: Absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t think so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, we seem to have a very, very different demeanor today.
Mark Eiglarsh, do you think his attorneys advised him to stop with all of this cutesy stuff?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I think that he was well-coached, he was told to just answer the question, don`t volunteer information. And ultimately, he still loves his sister and still wants to help her in spite of the horrific allegation that she`s made about him.
PINSKY: All right.
Next, we`re going to talk about Lee and Casey`s brother and sister bond. I want to continue to try to figure out -- again, I`m just, like you all at home, trying to figure this out. It`s not all fitting together, is it? But it certainly sounds like something very bad is going on here.
We`ll be right back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Coming up, we`ll take you inside Casey`s defense. We`re talking one-on-one with her former star attorney, Linda Kenney Baden. We`ll talk drowning theories, we`ll talk imaginary friends. How are they going to try to get Casey off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe that this is Caylee?
LINDA KENNEY BADEN, CASEY ANTHONY`S FMR. ATTORNEY: Well, we believe there`s certainly enough of an indication right now for us to come here with a motion for inspection and preservation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: She told me that she had not seen Caylee in 31 days, that she had been kidnapped, and that the nanny took her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The nanny. The nanny named "Zanny." And did anyone besides me ever notice the irony in that? Because there had been some talk about Xanax being something that Casey was getting involved with, and if you ever heard of a Xanabar (ph) or a Xanny (ph), that`s sort of a code or a colloquialism -- or what do you guys call it -- a name for Xanax.
Zanny the nanny.
All right. Tonight, Casey brother`s Lee Anthony takes the stand. He`s also had a very close bond with his sister. In fact, he was the one that she finally told the daughter was missing for over a month.
Their mom overheard the conversation, and then a bunch of frantic 911 calls ensued. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. And she just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her, herself.
There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Brutal.
Candice, after hiding this for a month, clubbing, pretending nothing was wrong, why do you think Casey finally broke down and admitted to her brother what was actually happening?
DELONG: Well, it`s hard to say. There is obviously a strong bond between them, brother-sister. Maybe she felt she needed to unload. Maybe she felt she needed to give him a clue, like, OK, she was -- you know, she didn`t say, I`m responsible for her disappearance. She said, she`s been kidnapped.
So I think she was more giving an explanation as to why Caylee wasn`t around rather than saying, yes, I did something bad.
PINSKY: All right. Candice, you`re a profiler, and I want you to put your money down on one of two bets. And if you feel uncomfortable, please don`t. But I`m going to give you two options.
DELONG: OK.
PINSKY: One is she is a severe narcissist with no empathy, and the child died somehow, and good riddance, versus some sort of fatal mistreatment, an accident, with a moderate narcissist there, that she just started lying and covering up, and that was the way she was.
Do you have a sense of which one this is?
DELONG: Well, of course --
PINSKY: Accident or premeditated? The question really is, accident, and somebody who is not a good person, versus somebody who is a cold- blooded killer? Really that`s what I`m trying to determine. What do you think?
DELONG: Accident. Accident.
PINSKY: Accident? Accident with a cover-up.
Mark, do you agree with --
DELONG: If I had to make a bet, that`s where my money would be.
PINSKY: Yes.
OK, Mark, what do you think about that assessment? Accident and somebody who was kind of, you know, not a great person, and, you know, parties too much, and lies a lot, and maybe has some narcissistic tendency, versus a severe -- a sociopath who can kill somebody because they don`t understand other persons really exist?
EIGLARSH: And just so we`re clear, you`re asking me personally, Mark Eiglarsh, as opposed to legally what I think the evidence is showing or can show. You`re asking me personally, correct?
PINSKY: Well, let`s do both, because I haven`t seen any evidence yet really. I`ve heard a lot of hearsay and stuff. But you personally, and then the evidence.
EIGLARSH: OK. Personally, I think that she learned about the chloroform, thought that that would be a cool way to be able to put her child to sleep, and I think that that resulted in an overdose, she panicked, and then she did what she did. Again, take it for what it`s worth.
PINSKY: Accident.
EIGLARSH: Well, not necessarily, because that would be --
PINSKY: But let`s say an accident and unconscionable parenting -- unconscionable parenting, but still an accident.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: Well, that`s technically first-degree murder, because one would argue that that is aggravated child abuse.
PINSKY: Yes, for sure.
EIGLARSH: And while you`re doing that and the child dies, that`s first-degree murder.
Legally, I don`t know. I don`t know that they can prove first-degree murder.
I think that we heard your other guest talk about one theory, perhaps they hit the child too hard, somebody did, and then she covered it up. We heard another theory about chloroform. We`ve heard a theory about her drowning.
The problem is they don`t have the proof in terms of cause of death, so the defense can create this wide open scenario however they want. And I don`t know that they can combat it.
PINSKY: So you think they are creating reasonable doubt with all of these diversions and distractions?
EIGLARSH: I think so far, yes. And again, we`re not talking about how Dr. Drew or Mark Eiglarsh feels about it. We are talking about 12 people who claim they haven`t been watching this trial, they don`t watch "NANCY GRACE," they don`t even know who she is.
You know, you`re talking about 12 very unique individuals, assuming they`re not stealth jurors, and they`re the ones somehow who are going to make a decision in this case. Different folks sitting on that jury.
PINSKY: Candice, you have a comment there?
DELONG: Well, I was just going to say, accident or not, Casey has a big problem ahead of her convincing that jury of anything other than the fact that she was -- look, she -- 31 days before saying anything.
PINSKY: Yes, right.
DELONG: And then what she does say turns out to be a lie.
PINSKY: No, it`s all --
SMITH: Dr. Drew, can I jump in?
PINSKY: I`m going to get to you in one second, Ryan.
I`m just going to say, this all goes at sort of this -- something that is just very intense for any of us watching this. This woman is like Medea, whether it`s an accident or intentional. It just pulls at the very sort of core relationship that we all rely upon for our safety, and we can`t sit here and tolerate hearing these horrible, horrible things.
Ryan, you have a comment here?
SMITH: That`s right.
Dr. Drew, one of the problems with Casey in this situation -- and by the way, we are just looking at the prosecution`s case so far. So it always looks bad for the defendant in this case.
But at this point, she admits to her brother about the 31 days based on the testimony we have seen because she is painted into a corner. Her mother has gone all over town trying to find her. They brought her home. Her brother has got her in the room.
They are calling the police. And that is why she speaks up at that point. So, at this point, it`s hard to see the accident theory because this is a person who was withholding this information, and now, at the last moment, she`s got to admit that Caylee is not there.
PINSKY: And let me ask you one other thing, Ryan. You`re there on the ground in this community. We have been talking about these jurors and the case that`s being presented to them.
I just watched a stampede of women go into the courthouse in that community. How unbiased are the jurors, really, do you think?
SMITH: You know, I think the jurors -- and I watched jury selection from start to finish -- I do think they are unbiased because they don`t come from this county. In Orange County, this is on the front page of news when Cindy or George takes the stand.
So everybody in Orange County has an opinion. The media has been negative towards Casey. But in Pinellas County, where the jury was selected from, these are people who don`t know much about the case.
There were people who said they don`t ever watch the news, people who said, "I don`t ever make judgments." So I do think they are unbiased.
PINSKY: All right. It`s going to be interesting.
Well, Candice, I appreciate your are thoughts.
Mark, as well.
And Ryan, of course, always we really appreciate your updates.
And a very interesting conversation.
As I`ve told my viewers repeatedly, I don`t know. I`m trying to get my head around this, trying to help us all get my head around what`s going on here.
But it really -- boy, it evokes lots of intense feelings. And please try not to direct them at me. I get all of your venom and anger just for floating theories about what might be going on here. I am just trying to understand this.
I can also tell by our Facebook and Twitter traffic that everyone is deeply interested in this trial. So we`re going to get to your questions, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: The fear of the unknown, the fear of the potential -- of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.
DET. YURI MELICH, POLICE INTERVIEW WITH CASEY ANTHONY: I asked you this at the onset, before we went on tape, and I`ll ask you again just to make sure we`re clear. Is there anything about this story that you`re telling me that is untrue?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
MELICH: Or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
MELICH: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
MELICH: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you a wrong way?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was another moment from today`s testimony in the Casey Anthony trial. The lead investigator in the case listening to himself interrogating Casey Anthony.
Now we want to hear from you. So let`s go to the phones.
We have got Michelle in New Hampshire on the line.
Go ahead, Michelle.
MICHELLE, NEW HAMPSHIRE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
I think that there`s been some sort of abuse that has occurred with Casey. But my question is, I wonder if she`s killed her daughter because she feared that her daughter would suffer the same abuse.
I have a niece who`s been sexually abused who has said that she really does not want to have children due to her fear of offenders. And I`m wondering if you`re familiar with this train of thought.
PINSKY: I am familiar with that. You hear people who have been sexually abused say, "I`m never going to have kids. I don`t trust my abilities to have a parent." Or, those people that do have kids, what they will always do is say, "That`s never going to happen to my child."
I have never been in a case where somebody said, "I`m a victim of sexual abuse, therefore I`m going to harm my child to prevent it." It just doesn`t happen like that. I`ve never seen that.
I have got a Facebook question from Pete. He asks, "How does a person get to the point where they can block out everything around them like Casey and disassociate?"
That`s presuming she does disassociate. And I`ve got to tell you, when you look at her sometimes, she does seem kind of checked out, doesn`t she?
And the fact is that that is a very primitive strategy that virtually all abuse victims deploy. It`s a sort of disconnecting from their body, feeling sort of -- looking at the world in a dream, or in a tunnel, or sometimes even floating above their body.
It`s a primitive mechanism that goes all the way back to death feigning like playing opossum. It connects to that same biology. We share it with other mammals.
But in humans, it`s a psychological process where people kind of disconnect. How much she`s doing that, whether that has any influence on this case, I don`t know.
Let`s go back to the phones.
Julie in Austin.
Hello there.
JULIE, AUSTIN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Julie.
JULIE: I see Casey as staring off into space, which is a very familiar look for sexual abuse survivors. They disassociate and go somewhere else from what is happening here. It`s just too painful. It`s called survival.
I do believe that Casey was abused. And yes, she has lied and lied and lied, which is not at all uncommon for abuse survivors or for kids with mothers as controlling as Cindy Anthony is. I just wanted to know your thoughts on that.
PINSKY: Well, that`s all true, what you`re saying about abuse survivors, but you`re really describing severe abuse describers. And one of the things that I keep sort of raising in my own mind, and I`ll raise it here, is she is only describing some mild abuse, maybe. Like, she had maybe a recollection of some abuse by her brother and maybe her dad, said the same thing.
The kinds of disassociation you`re describing, which I just discussed a few moments ago, is people and kids that were severely, chronically sexual abused. And there`s no doubt about their memories of that. It`s usually profound and has profound effects. Hard to make that case here based on what we`ve heard so far.
All right. Finally, Trish asks, "How can someone like Cindy Anthony properly recover after reliving all that trauma in the courtroom?"
And let`s be clear, that`s something that is going to stay with her for the rest of her life. Hopefully she can get help with that, but it ain`t going to be easy. It will leave a scar.
Casey`s former attorney is here next. I will ask her flat out, is she mentally ill?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Caylee`s babysitter, Zany the nanny, a very important player in the Anthony case, except for one problem. She doesn`t exist. Casey made her up. In fact, there`s a litany of possible imaginary friends she seemed to have invented. Are these the calculated fabrications of a criminal or the workings of a mind fractured by abuse and mental illness?
Later, why are we so fascinated with this trial? Is it the mystery, the drama, the macabre (ph) sickness behind the alleged murder, or is the human story, the twisted family dysfunction, the outrage? I`m finding out why we jus can`t look away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): All right. Tonight, inside Casey`s shocking defense. Casey`s former star defense attorney is here talking to us one- on-one tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA KENNEY BADEN, CASEY`S FORMER DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense`s biggest hurdle is the 31 days. No doubt about it. Prosecution, no cause of death as Caylee (ph) indicated. No cause of death. So, how can you say this is a brutal murder? How can you say this was an intentional murder if you don`t even know how this child died?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Linda Kenney Baden on CBS. She is here with us to discuss that and more. So, one of the questions that keeps coming up is, does Casey have some sort of severe mental illness such as a dissociative personality, something they used to call multiple personality disorder, and people call it sort of commonly the Sybil syndrome. People have been making those sorts of allegations. The defense told the jury about multiple imaginary friends. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did it ever occur to you, Cindy, that these people weren`t real?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you had heard these stories of these imaginary people for quite some time?
ANTHONY: I did not know they were imaginary people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you had no idea that Zany was not a real person?
ANTHONY: No, I didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any knowledge or did you have any knowledge that Gloria was an imaginary person?
ANTHONY: No, sir. I just found out that they are imaginary people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, I want to make a clarification for my viewers. Imaginary friends sort of implies hallucinatory qualities or maybe some sort of bizarre detachment from reality as opposed to just lying, which is I made up these friends or these people versus somebody who has a multiple personality disorder which has nothing to do with imagination. They just become those people, and there are people sort of don`t remember when another personality has stepped forward.
The Zany, which again I`ve said, doesn`t anybody else think about Xanax when they hear that Zany name. The Zany she just mentioned is the babysitter that Casey insisted had kidnapped Caylee. Now, is the defense trying to explain why Casey carried on business as usual while her baby girl was missing? Linda, you were a key member of Casey`s defense team.
BADEN: Right.
PINSKY: What kind of problems do you think the defense is going to face?
BADEN: Well, you know what, the problems that the defense faces are, and I said it before, are her lying. But by the same token, the lying is also an advantage for the defense, because let`s face it, Dr. Drew. What person is going to go around and, quote, "intentionally" kill a child under the prosecution`s theory, and that`s what we have here. A lot of theories coming out that the jury is going to have to figure out, and then, assume that no one is going to notice a child is missing.
So, doesn`t that tell you something is not quite right with whatever theories are being advanced by either side at this point? And remember, it`s always the prosecution`s burden. So, I think that the fact that this young lady has lied actually helps the defense because it still says there`s a mystery out there as to why she lied and what happened to this poor child.
PINSKY: And you mentioned, we have no cause of death per se as well, right? So, we can`t really focus on that issue. What it is that happened?
BADEN: That`s right. And I heard your previous segment, that maybe the child was hit too hard. Well, the autopsy shows that the child had no prior indications of any abuse. No broken bones, no nothing. And the fact that there is a cause -- no cause of death. The jury is going to be told, look, it`s the prosecution`s burden to prove it, not the defense burden to prove it.
And here, you know, as we wade through this whole thing that we`re seeing, and we`re only in the early stages, what evidence do we have as to what actually happened in the five hours that the child was home alone with Casey and her father? So far, I haven`t heard any. I don`t know if you have.
PINSKY: No. That`s my point I keep making. I hear all kinds of theories being suspected but no actual evidence. Casey, now, we know she wove an intricate back story about the nonexistent nanny. Listen to this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Casey tell you about Zany the nanny?
ANTHONY: She didn`t call her Zany the nanny, by the way. She called her Zany, and she said that that was Jeff`s girlfriend. And that they lived in the same apartment complex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you had no idea that Zany was not a real person?
ANTHONY: No, I did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Elaborate lies. Casey even told detectives where Zany lived, and it turned out to be an abandoned apartment. Linda, do you think it`s going to help the prosecution that she now admits that she was lying and fabricating?
BADEN: Well, you know, here`s what I think that the police should have looked at also. When she first met them, she told them that she gave the child to the nanny on June 8 or June 9. I forget the actual date. That was clearly a lie, and it was clearly provable that the child was alive a week before. So, why is she doing that? Everything is such a lie that there has to be more to this.
And, you know, this girl is -- I mean, she`s not Osama Bin Laden. She, as I said before, she`s not, you know, the kind of person you look at her, she`s not outwitting the FBI and the cops and all. She can`t even lie properly. So, again, I think we`re going to have to wait and wade through the trial and see at the end and let the jury figure this whole out, because it`s really still a mystery to everybody in that courtroom.
PINSKY: That`s what I keep saying. The only thing I know for sure is there are tons of lies. That`s the only thing I know for sure. Lying, lying, lying, all over the place. Lying, lying, lying, lying, lying lying. Casey`s defend shock us at all --
BADEN: And don`t you get the --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
BADEN: Don`t you get the feeling, Dr. Drew, like today when you saw Lee testify, that he knows more than he`s talking about? I thought that it may have been helpful to the defense that he looked like he was holding something in at all. And that there weren`t any pointed questions to him like, have you ever seen any abuse in the household? Have you ever seen anything being done about Casey`s lies or other people lie? I certainly want to know more about that family if I`m sitting on that jury.
PINSKY: Well, I agree. And I think in addition, I`m just thinking, the other thing I`ve learned through this trial in addition to there`s lots of lying is that there`s egregious parenting going on. That`s the other thing. That I think that`s what really has everyone very upset about. That`s why it`s hard to be empathic towards Casey. Now, the defense seemed, of course, shocked us during opening statements. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FL V CASEY ANTHONY: How in the world can a mother wait 30 days before ever reporting her child missing? That`s insane. That`s bizarre. Something`s just not right about that. Well, the answer is actually relatively simple. She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I think, Linda, this is their attempt to try to answer some of those questions you`re asking, but it`s still -- none of this stuff passes what I call the sniff test. You know, it just doesn`t fit together, does it?
BADEN: Well, but the prosecution`s case also has to pass the sniff test. Do you think, all of a sudden, she`s going to become this major killer who is going to duct tape her daughter and put her in the trunk, and kill her, and pretend no one`s noticing? Again, you have a lot of theories out there, Dr. Drew, but you don`t have any really hard evidence right now as to what the jury has to do. They have to find out how this child died. And so far, we don`t have any of that out there.
PINSKY: One of the thing -- if she`s a psychopathic killer, why aren`t they building a case about her having been, you know, a child that abused animals or lit fires or mistreated other peers as she was growing up? Why don`t we hear any of that kind of evidence? Do you think they`d even attempt to make that kind of a case, wouldn`t they?
BADEN: Yes. I would think so. As a matter of fact, we heard evidence from almost everybody on the stand that Casey was a good mother. And you know what, you know, if you look at Google, and I Googled before I came here like children who drown, and you see that parents get arrested a lot for manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter, so it`s actually a brave defense, because while they are saying (INAUDIBLE) the client to a possible conviction on involuntary manslaughter or a manslaughter charge also by saying that the child drown in the pool.
So, I think it`s a very brave defense and one that`s not usually seen to come forward with that kind of admission.
PINSKY: Interesting. Well, thank you, Linda, for the insight. More ahead on this strange and disturbing case, the Casey Anthony trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): So, did Casey dream up these, quote, "imaginary friends" or they just more lies? Or a convenient tool for the defense claiming she`s an abuse survivor? An FBI profiler weighs in, straight ahead.
And later --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!
PINSKY: This trial has captivated us. The mystery and drama we cannot turn away from. But did you ever wonder why we are so drawn to it? I have some ideas that might surprise you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It never occurred to you that these stories and these people that Casey was talking about were not real?
ANTHONY: No, sir. I trusted Casey. She`d never given me any reason not to believe in her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): That is hard for me to believe. That was Casey Anthony`s mother responding to questions about her daughter`s multiple imaginary friends. And by the way, multiple lies. Never gave me any reason not to -- to doubt her. I can`t buy that.
I`m back with criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh and host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith. Ryan is an attorney and he joins us from outside of the courtroom. Also with us is John Guinasso. He was a jury member on the infamous Scott Peterson trial. Peterson was sentenced to death for the murder of his pregnant wife, Laci and their unborn child. John, I want to ask you first, as a juror, would Casey`s sort of detachment and lack of emotion have an impact on you?
JOHN GUINASSO, JUROR ON SCOTT PETERSON CASE: Well, that`s not what I`ve seen. I`ve seen her very emotional at the defense table during the coverage of the trial. Those would have an effect on me as a juror. I would actually watch her if there`s a witness on the stand. That`s what I did during the Peterson case.
PINSKY: Do you have a sort of opinion about her given what you`ve seen so far?
GUINASSO: Well, there`s a lot of similarities with Scott in that her lies are going to come back to haunt her with the circumstantial evidence that the D.A. has. Everything that the juries are going to look at and deliberation will point towards Casey Anthony. There`ll be no other person that points out.
PINSKY: And so, you feel like the lying, at least, creates a concern that she is duplicitous, and she is the one we should be focusing on as a juror?
GUINASSO: Well, absolutely, because it all comes down to credibility for one. I mean, she hasn`t taken the stand, neither did Scott, but through other witnesses, you can tell certain parts of the testimony where they weren`t telling the truth. And you always asks yourself as a juror why. What are they hiding?
PINSKY: That`s interesting. Very interesting. And Ryan, what is your sense of the sort of the relationship between Casey and the jury that`s developing?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, it`s very interesting. When she is there and a lot of times when she is emotional, our people in the court are telling us a lot of times the jury members are not looking at her, except there is one juror. And this was a juror that during jury selection talked about not liking to judge people. And she almost wasn`t a member of this jury. During the breaks, she looks at Casey intently as if she`s trying to figure her out.
Also, this jury, they don`t take a lot of notes. So, it`s really strange. And, Dr. Drew, just to give you a perspective here, the jury is faced on one side of the court directly opposite from where Casey is. So, it would seem that any time they want to, they can stare directly at her any time during this trial.
PINSKY: Hey, Mark, you`re still with us. Would you be advising her to try to make eye contact with jury? And given what you`ve heard so far, does she have some real liabilities here?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I would advise here like I do all of my clients that this is theater. They`re always studying the actors. They`re looking at every move that you`re making like America is. So, continue to look like you are involved in this case. Don`t start to day dream. Take notes when appropriate. Feel emotion. Gently shake your head if you don`t agree with something.
And do I feel that she`s got issues? Listen, the prosecution`s got a ton of evidence. But that being said, the defense has advanced a theory consistent with innocence. The prosecution has to address that, even if the defense doesn`t prove it, it`s out there. It`s the elephant in the room. They`ve got to suggest why this wasn`t an accidental drowning. They`ve got to deal with that issue.
PINSKY: Are they going to get at the cause of death here?
EIGLARSH: They don`t have it. See, the defense knows that. There`s no trial by ambush here in Florida in state court. We know after we take depositions of every witnesses -- every witness where the weaknesses are in the state`s case. So, the defense, assuming this is not true, has carved out exactly the perfect scenario that might get them in the game. That`s not to suggest it`s going to work, but they`re going to explain their bizarre behavior by a series of events that began in her childhood, where her father would do horrific things to her.
I don`t know if it`s true or not, but these horrific things that caused her to act normally even though she was being placed in an environment with bizarre, horrific, abhorrent behavior committed by her father. The same way she was acting after this horrible tragedy allegedly occurred. That`s what you`re going to hear from the defense.
PINSKY: But, Mark, I`ve not heard any evidence yet that suggests that she has suffered the kind of abuse -- really it`s chronic, severe abuse that results in the kinds of behavior we`re seeing in Casey.
EIGLARSH: You`re too smart.
PINSKY: And listen, I don`t want to -- what`s that?
EIGLARSH: You`re too smart. See, that`s the problem. You wouldn`t be on this jury. You are. You`re way out there. The average juror just needs to hear that she`s different than you and I, and how we would react, because he`s putting the most private area of himself into a place reserved for food and cavities. And then, she is sending her to school every day to act like, you know, nothing has happened.
They`re going to argue that that type of behavior caused her to lie, to act bizarrely, when she feels responsible for her child tragically drowning in the pool, assuming that`s really what happened.
PINSKY: John, would you buy that? Or would you look at all the lies and go, come on?
GUINASSO: You know, when it comes down to the jury, Dr. Drew, it`s not about sophistication. It really comes down to common sense. And you don`t need a degree to judge your peers. And so, beyond the sophistication, you take it down a level, and you`ll get at the right verdict.
PINSKY: Ryan, how do you feel about that? Do you think that they`ve cast enough doubt for a layperson to sort of grab onto that and say, hey, gee, maybe that is why she`s acting in such a strange ways, and frankly, despicable ways and such a horrible parent that we maybe should put this aside and say, hmm, maybe she didn`t do something premeditated?
SMITH: You know what, Dr. Drew, so far, I don`t think they have. And part of it is because you`re looking at just the prosecution side of the story right now. But really, your former juror there just mentioned it. Common sense. So, when somebody says, hey, she was sexually abused. All these things happened to her daughter and that`s why she`s suppressing what really happened to her daughter.
They need to get a sense of why that happened and of the specifics. All we heard about the abuse so far is George Anthony denying it. They didn`t ask Lee a single question about abuse. So, what happens is the jury starts to fill in the blanks for themselves. And common sense tells you, yes, the defense brought it up, but did they ever prove it? Do they ever bring out anything to actually say that that`s what happened?
The defense doesn`t have to prove a case here, but they do have to help the jury with their common sense in deciding what really happened.
PINSKY: Mark, I`ve got one minute left. I`m going to give you the last word here. Doesn`t the defense have a problem here with the jury hearing these egregious parenting tactics? You know, just really lousy parenting and lies and lies and lies. It`s hard to sort of common sense again, apply common sense and go, hmm, we shouldn`t be suspicious about this girl?
EIGLARSH: The defense has a tough challenge ahead. There`s no question. And Ryan`s right in what he`s saying that there`s tremendous challenge from the defense. But keep in mind, they heard it in opening statement. And for sure the judge and the prosecutor is going to say, that`s not evidence, but it`s out there.
My jurors hear things from me, and while they`re not supposed to consider it as evidence, it`s out there. They`re going to discuss it in the jury room. So, they have to be concerned about it.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Ryan, John, and Mark.
Next, a trial as public spectacle. We`ve seen it before, and we are witnessing it again.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": Be sure to catch my show tonight, Drew. We`ll be talking about the newest developments in the Casey Anthony trial, including the testimony of Casey`s own brother. And one of my guests will be Marcia Clark, the fame to O.J. Simpson prosecutor. You don`t want to miss it.
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. Every day before the sun rises, dozens of people literally line up outside the Orange County courthouse to score a seat in the courtroom to watch the Casey Anthony trial unfold. On this day, the stampede we`re watching here were the up to 250 people in line hoping to get a first-hand account of these proceedings. So, what is this intense fascination with this particular murder case, and why are people so riveted by the coverage?
Here now, we`re going to meet a woman who did make it inside the courtroom today. Kelly Heaney got in line at 3:00 this morning in hopes of getting a glimpse at some of the testimony. We actually have some video, Kelly, of you running this morning to get that third row seat. You can see her right there. There she is. Slow mo. She`s going to make it. Touchdown!
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Kelly, you made it to the end zone, Kelly. So, what was it like in the end zone today?
KELLY HEANEY, COURTROOM SPECTATOR: Oh, it was a mad house when we first got there. Everyone was pushing and shoving. And we were just trying to hold our spot in line. And finally, we had a gentleman. I believe, he was the first man here on the first day of trial, and he kind of, you know, told everyone to back off and just act like human beings.
PINSKY: All right. So, Kelly, I really want you to dig deep on this, because I think this notion of a murderous mother pulls at us in unconscious ways that none of us can really even understand. So, that`s sort of my sense, that this is such a powerful notion to us, and especially with a woman that seems to be a despicable parent. What does this trial do for you? What does it mean to you to get in there and watch this thing?
HEANEY: You know, I have just been so captivated from this trial from day one, just because she is around my age. She`s from Orlando. I`m from Orlando. I know a couple of people that know her. It was just really -- put it in perspective for me like to be in the trial today and seeing her in person and just watching her brother up at the witness stand. And I was very, you know, glad I got to get in there.
PINSKY: So, did you get a different sense of these people being there in their presence than you do, say, watching them on TV or reading about this?
HEANEY: I did. I saw George and Cindy, you know, they walked by me a couple of times. And my heart goes out to them. Same with Lee. And Casey, she just, you know, keeps a stone face pretty much the whole time. So, it`s pretty much how it shows on TV.
PINSKY: Really? So, you think that Casey is everything she`s made out to be?
HEANEY: I think so. I have different views on some things. I think that it might have been an accident, and she could have came out in the beginning and just told the truth, and it wouldn`t have been, you know, this one have been taking place here today like it is.
PINSKY: All right. Well, I appreciate you join us, Kelly. It`s interesting to me that we are so captivated by this thing. It really goes at, you know, the very -- some of our very deepest and primary kinds of feelings and can`t get enough of it. That`s why thank you for joining me here today and watching. We`ll see you tomorrow night for more.
END
