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Dr. Drew
Steve Jobs Dies at 56; Conrad Murray Trial
Aired October 05, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): The Michael Jackson death trial. Today, the garbled voice of a medicated Michael floods the courtroom for a second time.
MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: I didn`t have a childhood.
PINSKY: Tonight, the entire recording and a rare glimpse at Jackson`s secret agony.
Also today, from timeline to crime scene, forensics, fake names and physical evidence.
Plus, Murray`s actress ex, a witness on the stand or thespian on stage? Courtroom cameras can kill a career. Just ask Kato Kaelin.
And exclusive recordings of a different kind, a sober Michael. His pain, his vision, and the man who rolled the tape.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are coming to you live tonight from the Time Warner Center in New York City, and we have sadly some not so happy news to report tonight.
Apple founder Steve Jobs, dead at 56. Cut down by pancreatic cancer, a relentless killer that cuts across all demographics and social strata.
Jobs was a relentless businessman, a technological innovator, and a brilliant inventor. He brought his company back from the brink and pushed it to the heavens.
He gave us life-enriching and even life-saving products. His ideas revolutionized software, telecommunications, and the global marketplace.
And I`ve got to tell you, his products, I don`t think there`s anyone out there that have not been touched by them. I know my life is completely different because of what he has created.
He didn`t just think outside the box. He sort of ripped the box apart and threw it aside and did his own thing. He reinvented his vision every day, and through his vision, he reinvented us.
Einstein said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Jobs had more than his share of both and he pushed us to do the same. Hopefully, in his honor and in his memory we will continue to push on.
So many of you are leaving comments about Steve tonight. Here are just a few.
On our Facebook page, Denise writes, "Apple and the world will miss you. It`s our loss here on Earth. Thanks for making the world a better place."
And Linda writes, "He was a great man who contributed so much to our daily grind to make things easier for us. I thought about him just yet when I was watching everything about the new iPhone. I missed his enthusiastic spiel so much. RIP, Mr. Jobs."
Switching gears tonight, a stunning day in court. The Michael Jackson death trial moves into what we`re calling sort of the CSI phase.
Plus, a medicated -- heavily medicated -- Michael speaks from the grave. Listen to this, and then we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday`s testimony was all about Conrad Murray`s ladies. What will day seven bring?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Day seven, and on the stand now, a new witness, Sally Hirschberg, again establishing Dr. Murray and all the Propofol he brought for his patient Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going to the April 16th, 2009 invoice, an order for Lidocaine, one percent, 30 milliliter, an order of 25.
Is that accurate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today could be the day where we hear the entire audiotape of Michael Jackson`s slurred speech.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A heartbreaking day in court as we heard the words of Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you reference a specific recording from Dr. Murray`s iPhone?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a lot of words to describe that four- minute recording played in court today -- sad, tragic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And we`re going to get into that a bit tonight.
As Michael`s brother Jermaine wiped away the tears, the prosecution played more shocking audio of Jackson, Michael Jackson possibly high on Propofol at the time. A barely coherent Jackson rambles on about his love for children and says, "I didn`t have a childhood. I hurt."
And this was recorded just six weeks before Michael`s death. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: They walk around with no mother. They drop them off, they leave a psychological degradation of that. They reach out to me -- please take me with you. I want to do that for them. I`m gonna do that for them.
And that will be remembered more than my performances. My performances will be up there helping my children and always be my dream. I love them. And I love them because I didn`t have a childhood.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: It really sounds like a patient going under in anesthesia, and possibly that`s exactly what was happening there.
And now inside private e-mails sent by Dr. Murray just hours before Jackson died. Michael was using fake names like Omar Arnold, Mike Smith, I guess they pronounce it, Paul Ferance (ph). I can`t even pronounce these names.
What else do these e-mails tell us about Michael`s last days?
Straight to my guests. Attorney Lauren Lake is here with me in my studio. I believe I`ll be having shortly there anesthesiologist and director of the Washington Pain Center John Dombrowski.
And there`s Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on truTV. He joins us.
Ryan, can you give us the latest?
I don`t hear Ryan there. I don`t suppose the rest of you can as well.
So I`ll get back to you, Ryan, in just a second.
Just love live television, don`t you all?
A coroner`s investigator took the stand today and said that she had found 12 bottles of Propofol in Jackson`s house. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: Does this now accurately show the plastic kind of two-handled grocery bag inside of the blue Costco bag?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
WALGREN: Did you also find inside that blue Costco bag a plastic bag full of various -- what you described as medical debris?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
WALGREN: Did you also recover seven smaller, 20-milliter, Propofol bottles within the Baby Essentials bag?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ryan, I`m going to go back to you. I know it rained in Los Angeles today, so the whole town falls apart if there`s water. We can`t drive. We can`t do television broadcasts. We lost your audio.
But two things I`m going to toss to you. One is, I`d like a little bit on the latest. And then, on that footage we just heard, Baby Essentials. I mean, somebody was trying to hide the fact that there was a lot of Propofol in the house.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Well, that certainly is what the prosecution tried to point out.
First, those tapes that played in court, Dr. Drew, these are some of the last words that Michael Jackson`s family, his fans are going to hear before his death, because this is Michael Jackson on tape. It moved everyone.
And I`ll tell you, it might play both ways in this case. Many people afterwards are saying that the defense may try to paint Michael Jackson as someone who`s drug-addicted just based on these tapes. The prosecution, of course, trying to offer them to show this is how Dr. Murray treated Michael Jackson.
But as you said, Jermaine Jackson breaking down, showing tears in that courtroom after hearing his brother say, "I hurt."
And then you talk about these drugs that were introduced in the courtroom, this was very important, because this witness even described the bottle of Propofol that was just lying there on the floor. Other bags of IV bags cut open and Propofol hidden in closets, Propofol bottles, 12 in all, all over his bedroom. They were trying to paint Michael Jackson`s bedroom as something almost like a drugstore, with Dr. Murray being at the head of all this.
PINSKY: Lauren, you`re shaking your head vigorously. What do you think about that?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know, what I think? Is that Dr. Murray wasn`t at the head of all this. And we have to say the unpopular thing, the thing that people don`t want to hear, is that Michael Jackson was addicted.
He had a problem. And this very moment, as we still try to cover up his addiction, even in his death, is the very problem that led him to his death, because everyone around him didn`t want to believe it and didn`t want to own it, because he made them money.
PINSKY: Well, you`re a courageous person for saying that honestly and clearly. And what`s your Twitter handle so I can stick all the Michael Jackson fans on you?
LAKE: I`m already getting the hate mail, @laurenllake.
PINSKY: I will tell you that yes, there`s no doubt that there was a very complicated situation here with addiction as a feature. He was treated for this.
This is one thing that`s irrefutable. He was treated for addiction at one time, and he has said himself he was addicted to pain medication.
I need my viewers to understand this. Addiction is a lifelong condition. In order to be admitted to a program for addiction, you must meet criteria for that diagnosis. You can`t be admitted otherwise.
And once you are admitted, you are being told by the doctors that you now have a lifelong condition that requires daily management. And if you are re-exposed to substances at some time in your life, this disease will reawaken.
And as we go along tonight, one of the things that really jumped out at me -- I`m going to talk to Sanjay Gupta a little later as well -- is that in the medical records that were shown today -- I don`t know if you saw all those medical records. They were on his iPhone, I guess. They were e-mailed to him or something.
They show two years ago, or maybe three years ago, Xanax, Restoril, Valium. There you go. He was already in trouble back then. That`s when they should have intervened.
And very courageous, Lauren, for being very clear about that. I`m not sure I`m ready to take the heat for you, but I`ll stand with you.
All right. Coming up, more of Michael`s shocking audio. Stay with us.
My guests stay with me as well. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FRANK DILEO, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FMR. MANAGER: Dr. Murray, this is Frank DiLeo, Michael`s manager. Would you please call me? I`m sure you`re aware he had an episode last night. He`s sick.
Today`s Saturday. Tomorrow, I`m on my way back. I`m not going to continue my trip.
I think you need to get a blood test on him. We ought to see what he`s doing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: And more than blood tests, I`m afraid.
Tonight, the prosecution plays more of that troubling Michael Jackson audio, and we are learning more about Conrad Murray`s behavior in Michael`s final days.
I`m back with attorney Lauren Lake; host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith; and with me as well, anesthesiologist and medical director of the Washington Pain Center, Dr. John Dombrowski.
Dr. Dombrowski, what do you make of all the testimony today? Do you have any opinion on where we should be laying -- let`s call it the blame?
Once again we`re having audio problems. I can`t -- I think he is in - - is he in St. Louis?
You`re in Washington, D.C. I can`t blame the rain there because those people are heartier than us Los Angeleans.
Are you there, John?
DR. JOHN DOMBROWSKI, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, THE WASHINGTON PAIN CENTER: I think I`m here.
PINSKY: There you go. Let`s try that again.
DOMBROWSKI: All right.
I think it`s extremely troubling when you start seeing another physician managing a patient with an addiction problem with more addictive substances. That`s the reason he needed to take it to the next level of providing Mr. Jackson general anesthesia to help with sedation. This is incredibly troubling.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree.
Now, you know, I`m going to have Sanjay Gupta on later, and you`re my other opportunity to talk to another physician. How do we help people understand this?
I mean just, to me, the fact that he got Restoril and Xanax and Valium back in 2008, already off-the-chart inappropriate. A cardiologist, people think to themselves, boy, doesn`t every doctor just know better? But it really requires some specialized training to deal with addiction, does it not?
DOMBROWSKI: You`re exactly right. With respect to any sort of addiction, we have to look at the history.
If they have a history of abuse of any medications, whether it`s benzodiazepines, valium-like medications, obviously pain medications and/or alcohol, these are all problems, as you have said earlier in this episode before, that we have to be conscious of. We can still care for the patient, but we have to be aware that this is their genetic makeup, that they could have a potential for abuse of these medications.
So we have to understand this. And more importantly, we as a physician have to listen to the family.
Michael or whomever is going in the wrong direction. And we have to keep our ears open to see this, to say with love to any patient that we have, this is the wrong thing for them, and to intervene as their physician. This is not the right direction to go.
PINSKY: And don`t you think, Dr. Dombrowski -- my opinion has always been that the fundamental error here is he was over his head with the conditions he was managing. These aren`t cardiological conditions, and he`s doing more than just monitoring the cardiology of a patient. He`s got a much more global issue going on here, and the real failure was not consulting his peers.
DOMBROWSKI: Exactly. From a cardiology standpoint, if the gentleman had an EKG that was wrong, or a heart attack, perfect physician. But we as anesthesiologists have made sedation look so incredibly easy. We think that everyone can do this.
And again, we just start getting enticed perhaps with money or fame or whatever it might have been. But you do get over your head very quickly because it makes it looks so easy.
PINSKY: Now, the morning Michael Jackson died, Murray e-mailed an insurance agent that Michael was in great health. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALGREN: "Dear Bob, I am in receipt of your e-mail. I spoke with Mr. Jackson and requested his authorization for release of his medical records in order to assist you to procure a cancellation insurance policy for his show. However, authorization was denied."
"I therefore suggest that someone from AEG should consult kindly with Mr. Jackson as to its relevance, for he is of the opinion that such a policy is already secured in the U.S. As far as the statements of his health published by the press, let me say they`re all fallacious to the best of my knowledge."
"Sincerely, Conrad Murray. Sent from my iPhone."
Does that accurately reflect the body of that e-mail sent 11:17:08 a.m.?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Lauren, insurers wanted Michael Jackson`s medical records to see if there was any truth to the media reports that Jackson used a wheelchair, had cancer, emphysema, anorexia, all these things that Dr. Murray just doesn`t want to give up. And really, he calls it fallacious.
Isn`t that sort of insurance fraud?
LAKE: Oh, absolutely, it is. But this is where it becomes very obvious that Dr. Murray is not working alone.
He`s protecting a bigger interest. Not just his own and not just Michael Jackson. There was a huge pressure to get everything done, to get these shows under way. And he was hired to make sure that happened.
PINSKY: I want to stop you. That pressure didn`t just come from AEG. It sounds like, listening to those tapes, particularly of Michael, those garbled tapes, it was even coming from Michael himself.
LAKE: Exactly. He needed to get it done. And he needed to be great.
But Michael thought he was doing 10 shows at first. And then they dropped the dime on him and said hey, buddy, we`re going to make a ton of money, we need you to do 50. And what would that do to a desperate drug addict? Say I can`t sleep, I need more drugs. I`m even more worked up and depressed, nervous and anxious than I was before.
Dr. Murray is not the only person complicit in this matter.
PINSKY: Well, it`s an interesting issue that La Toya has mentioned this and other family members have mentioned, that there are other guilty parties here. And the fact is, had Dr. Murray tried to treat this, it would have taken months.
LAKE: Yes.
PINSKY: That`s the reality. You don`t taper somebody off Propofol. That`s why you -- if you remember all those reports of him feeling hot and cold and flushed, that was because he was in withdrawal.
Dr. Dombrowski, do you agree with me on that?
DOMBROWSKI: I do. And again, if anyone wants to be medicated or come off these types of medication, that`s what rehabilitation`s all about. You need to get him in a controlled setting such as the Betty Ford Clinic or whatever the clinic setting might be.
It`s not in someone`s home. This is not a natural event where you can control your environment.
PINSKY: It would not be even remotely reasonable to do it that way.
Ryan, you wanted the last words here. Go ahead.
SMITH: Oh, yes. This -- you know, I hear this and, you know, Dr. Dombrowski and you, you mentioned a really good point. And I understand Lauren`s position as well. But, you know, the things that he had in there, the using this equipment at home, the failure to watch Michael Jackson, all that, that`s a breach here.
Now, you talk about the idea of Michael Jackson adding pressure, everybody adding pressure. If somebody asks you to commit a crime, and you go ahead and commit it, the fact that somebody pressured you to do it doesn`t mean you get off for that crime. That`s what the prosecution`s trying to highlight here.
They`re trying to say, look, we see all that pressure going on, but you know what? What was he doing to Michael Jackson?
If he was involved in all of this, there were certain standards of care he should have met. If he didn`t meet those standards of care, and as a result he created a substantial risk that Michael Jackson may die, then he is guilty. And that`s what they`re trying to point out in all this.
PINSKY: So, in spite of the other parties involved, it`s still negligent.
LAKE: The medical culpability -- and the best word he said there is "if," because we don`t know yet.
PINSKY: We don`t know yet. And more to be revealed in this case certainly.
We`re going to get into more as we go along here. I`ve got a bunch more interesting topics to address.
Up next, your best questions and comments of the night in our "On Call" segment.
By the way, thank you to my panel, Lauren, Dr. Dombrowski, and Ryan.
And later, prophetic and disturbing audiotapes from what is a perfectly coherent Michael Jackson that you may never have heard. And the man who recorded those tapes is here with us tonight.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACKSON: I care about them, them angels. God wants me to do it. God wants me to do it. I`m gonna do it, Conrad.
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PHYSICIAN: I know you would.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: That once spooky and sad -- just disturbing, I`d say.
And as we`ve been discussing in tonight`s show, the Conrad Murray trial has reached another emotional peak, that as jurors hear Michael Jackson in that slow, slurred speech in what is a cell phone recording -- again, I haven`t established that was -- I think he was actually standing there recording this.
And we posted this poll question on our Web site today. It asks, "What kind of impact will the slurred Michael Jackson audio recording have on the jury?" Here are the results.
Twelve percent of you said they`ll think Michael Jackson was giving himself something. Seventy-three percent of you, however, said Dr. Conrad Murray wasn`t treating his patient properly. And 15 percent said you`re just not sure.
So let`s hear more of you -- what you have to say.
Eugenia in California, go ahead.
EUGENIA, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Eugenia.
EUGENIA: Just a quick comment.
PINSKY: Yes.
EUGENIA: I think that Dr. Murray was grossly negligent with the treatment of Michael Jackson. He was preoccupied with various other things and not tuned in to his patient. And though Michael might have had a problem with prescription drugs, that is not what killed him.
Acute Propofol intoxication is what killed Michael. And that is attributed to Dr. Murray`s negligence.
PINSKY: Well, Eugenia, you bring up two interesting things. One is his negligence, and sort of the character issues and the preoccupations, and I think the prosecution is doing a pretty good job of raising. But the other issue is, you know, putting so much on the Propofol.
I have to tell you, that is a strategy that might backfire. Myself, I think he received enough Lorazepam and Midazolam to kill him as well.
I mean, the Propofol might have been the final little blow. I mean, certainly if he gave more than 25 milligrams, there`s no doubt that it would be that. But they`re going to get into a battle about whether 25 milligrams is enough and did he give it to himself.
I think I might focus on the Lorazepam and Midazolam. And he took enough to put you, me, my stage manager, all of us to sleep for a couple of days. And one, you know, thin young -- you know, thin man that`s not young any longer could easily stop breathing.
Chris on Facebook writes, "Pharmacist Lopez testified that Dr. Murray ordered 255 vials of Propofol in the two months before Michael Jackson`s death. How is that weaning him off of it?"
And it`s funny you that would say that. That is virtually the same thought I had. It`s like boy, the weaning schedule`s getting pretty prolonged.
I mean, and I suspect he -- you know, there`s some suspicion he had been giving this stuff to him for a long time, like maybe months. So this idea that he sort of arrived on the scene, this stuff was already happening, somewhat suspect right now. And then the 255 vials, suspecting that if he was going to taper him, it wasn`t going to be soon.
Michelle writes, "Murray`s attorney said that Dr. Murray was unaware of Jackson`s withdrawal symptoms at the time he was treating him. Is that possible, not to notice symptoms?"
And I think what`s more likely is he misinterpreted symptoms. As I said earlier in this broadcast, remember, he has reports of feeling hot and cold on one side of the body, different than the other. Those are classic withdrawal symptoms.
And unless you`ve been treating addicts for long, long periods of time, it is easy to mistake withdrawal symptoms for all sorts of things. And again, the failure being that he didn`t consult with people with expertise in this.
Coming up next, the Michael Jackson death trial. We`ve talked about the legal parts of the case. Now we`re going to talk more about the medical side.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta will be joining me. I will also get Dr. --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE JOBS, FEBRUARY 24, 1955-OCTOBER 5, 2011: No one wants to die. Even people who want go to heaven don`t want to die to get there. And yet, death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be because death is very likely the single best invention of life.
It`s life`s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now, the new is you. But someday, not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it`s quite true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is a remarkable and prophetic piece of tape. We have breaking news tonight. A sad day. The mastermind behind Apple, Steve Jobs, has passed away. He was swept away in the manner he was describing there. He was beloved. That was him speaking at Stanford University. He`s changed all of our lives.
CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins us now. He is also host of "Sanjay Gupta M.D." Sad. Really sad. And to me puts a little light on how there are certain tumors we just don`t do well with. We just don`t do well with.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We don`t. And you remember, Drew, he was diagnosed back in 2003. And for a year or so, he sort of tried these herbal remedies. He`d traveled the world, and he thought maybe that could beat it. Obviously not. In 2004 is when he had that surgery finally to remove the tumor.
PINSKY: He didn`t have -- oh, my goodness. I hate these stories where people with money and power -- listen, it goes back to Michael Jackson, too. People with money and power get special care. Listen, everybody, if you have money and power and you get want special care, you get substandard care, because standard of care is the standard for a reason, because it is the best.
GUPTA: And getting that tumor out right away, especially because as you know now, it was a variant of the most aggressive form of pancreatic cancer. This was a neuroendocrine tumor located in his pancreas. Early surgery can sometimes be curative in this, you know, obviously, water under the bridge at this point, but that is, I think, it`s an important point you`re making.
PINSKY: Listen, I can`t say it enough. There`s a standard of care. Listen, you and I are doctors, right? If there was something better we could do for our patients that was fancy from Germany or Switzerland, you think we wouldn`t know about it. We would know about it in five minutes.
GUPTA: Right. And the idea that, you know, traditional medicine can actually offer something, whether you`re wealthy or not, I think, is an important point. He got a liver transplant in 2009. He went to Switzerland for alternative treatments. You know, he was fighting like crazy, Drew. You know, I mean, he was trying everything he could.
PINSKY: I wish he had succeeded. All right. Let`s switch gears. Let`s talk about Michael Jackson. Tonight, the prosecution plays more of that troubling tape. Watch this.
(SINGING) some things in life
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: Go. It`s amazing. He`s the greatest entertainer in the world. I`m taking that money, a million children, children`s hospital, the biggest in the world, Michael Jackson`s Children`s Hospital. Going to have a movie theater, game room. Children are depressed. The -- in those hospitals, no game room, no movie theater. They`re sick because they`re depressed. Their mind is depressing them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What I want to try to accomplish, you and I, tonight, is help people understand the physician perspective in all this. Here`s a guy that`s a cardiologist, highly specialized. He can do the monitoring of a patient undergoing anesthesia. But for him to take over the primary care of a complicated patient like this, isn`t that really where he went off the rail?
GUPTA: I mean, you know, there was a long history here. The defense will argue, as you know, Drew, that there was a lot of Michael Jackson`s patient history that Dr. Murray was never told. That`s sort of where they`re headed with that. But you`re absolutely right.
He was trying to treat significant addiction issues. He was trying to wean him off these medications. I mean, maybe he should have been calling you --
PINSKY: They should have called somebody like me, and here`s the reality. If they`d called somebody like me, I would have assembled a team, and we would have gotten him out of the house --
GUPTA: And you probably wouldn`t be doing propofol in the house. You would have been in a hospital with a lot of the equipment that you talked about.
PINSKY: And let me tell you something, propofol, I had an interesting experience myself. Propofol suppresses withdrawal symptoms from benzodiazepine. It just completely suppresses them. So, they might have been, every night, treating benzo withdrawal.
(INAUDIBLE)
PINSKY: Massive amounts. They`re all related to valium. He got like six milligrams of midazolam and six of lorazepam in about a six-hour period. How many days would you and I have been asleep for if we had survived that --
GUPTA: I would have been asleep for at least 12 hours, which would have been great to sleep that long, but you know, propofol as you know is not sleep either. People keep calling it that, but this is -- you know, you have certain amount of EEG activity when you sleep. That`s good.
You want your brain to actually be a little active, to be restorative, to dream, to have rapid eye movements. This is general anesthesia. No wonder the guy was so tired all the time. He never was getting sleep and the thing that he thought was giving him sleep absolutely was not.
PINSKY: And he was in some form of withdrawal. It was a very complicated neurobiological situation. And, again, for the people at home to understand, I was trained in a psychiatric hospital, and I`m (INAUDIBLE) I worked for 20 years in a psychiatric hospital.
And when we had a violent patient that we need to give chemical restraint to, meaning to get them to stop right away, we would give them a shot, an intramuscular shot, two milligrams Ativan. And boom, they would fall over.
GUPTA: Right.
PINSKY: I mean, that`s how powerful these medicines are.
GUPTA: And it would last a while, too.
PINSKY: It would last six hours or something. Yes.
GUPTA: But you didn`t have to put -- you didn`t have to have the same sort of monitoring equipment, right? You didn`t have to have a breathing tube sort of on standby --
PINSKY: But we wouldn`t give it and give it and give it either. I mean, we would -- I`ve seen people having withdrawal treatment where they`re on a pulse oximeter, the action (ph) monitor and a cardiac monitor and that`s the kind of thing should have happened for Michael Jackson. Again, doing this alone -- I mean, think about it.
You`re a neurosurgeon. Again, you`re highly specialized in your area. You walk in you think you`re taking over a case, and you find all this mess going on. You`d consult right away, would you not? I mean, that would be the first order of business, get help.
GUPTA: No question. And to think that he was doing this alone without anybody even close by, I mean, that`s what`s so striking. I mean, as you know, patients can really go south in a hurry when they`re getting this sort of medication. They`re fine one second, and literally, 15 seconds later they`re not breathing, and they`re going into cardiac arrest. It`s just -- it`s unbelievable not to have some sort of resource there.
PINSKY: Apparently, there was some desire to get a nurse and some monitoring equipment in there, but magically, it never quite got there. And there`s a lot of this hey, don`t bother me, I`m the doctor. Really, that`s, I think, where Dr. Murray again, that`s he did himself a disservice.
GUPTA: Right.
PINSKY: How was your speculation? How do you put that night together? Because I know I have my own -- I`ll share my thoughts with you if you share yours with me.
GUPTA: I had to say I was in L.A. last week. I know you were there as well, and it`s such a parlor game, I mean, in to some extent. I have to say, watching the defense really sort of give their part of this, it`s been strikingly good to me. They`re actually making the case that look, Michael Jackson had long-existing problems.
You know, Dr. Murray may or may not have known about all these things, and even at the time that Dr. Murray was his doctor, they`re making the case that Michael Jackson was still taking other medications from other doctors and that was confounding the whole situation. Now, whether or not any of that`s going to make a difference in terms of what happens with Dr. Murray, I don`t know.
PINSKY: But it might create doubt in the jury`s mind.
GUPTA: It might create doubt. I think the biggest thing the defense is saying is that this whole idea that Michael Jackson actually took these medications himself, the ones that actually were the lethal ones on that particular day, that`s going to be a really hard thing to prove, as you know, Drew, but that`s, I think, where they`re headed with this.
PINSKY: One thing I hate about all of this, though, and back me up if you agree with me, is that this is blaming the patient. When an addict has addiction, when a psychiatric patient, whatever, it`s not their fault.
GUPTA: Right.
PINSKY: Our job as physician is to give them the right care. That`s -- again, for me, that`s another failure of our profession.
GUPTA: I mean, the fact that you have a syringe of propofol sitting there, lots of lorazepam, again, the medication you were talking about, sitting there within reach of an addict, I think you`re probably right --
PINSKY: Right. And not getting him care by a proper team. That`s a failure, too.
GUPTA: You know, that was -- he said he was weaning him off propofol yet ordered literally hundreds if not thousands of milligrams of the stuff. And not weaning someone off in their own home. They should be in a hospital with an addictionologist.
PINSKY: And by the way, just to sort of put a final cap on this conversation, propofol addiction is exceedingly where I`ve only seen it anesthesiologist, and even among anesthesiologist, it`s very unusual. But I would have to -- I deal with a lots of -- I`m an expert in withdrawal. Withdrawal from propofol? That`s something I would need a lot of people to help me with because it`s so unusual. We probably don`t even know -- there`s nobody expert in that, really.
GUPTA: I`ve never heard of a case. Although with this particular story, I`ve not heard of a lot of things that I`ve been hearing about with Michael Jackson. It`s -- but you`re absolutely right.
PINSKY: Propofol. I think it`s reasonable for a propofol withdrawal, perhaps, to be managed with the benzodiazepine. It seems like what he was doing, trying to switch him offer to benzodiazepines, but boy, you`d have to be in a hospital setting and have lots of monitoring.
GUPTA: One night without propofol that Dr. Murray could point to. And again, this idea that, you know, propofol is a drug of abuse in hospitals among anesthesiologists. It`s been going up in numbers, but in somebody`s home, I just -- I`ve seen how quickly this medication can and it`s striking.
PINSKY: It is. I saw the video of you putting a surgical patient under. But the other thing is you said that it`s not -- I`ve heard you say it`s not a controlled substance, but I opened the package, it`s not a controlled substance.
GUPTA: Right.
PINSKY: But I opened the package of propofol, and it only describes in-hospital use. It doesn`t even contemplate that somebody would use it outside of a hospital.
GUPTA: That was so interesting to me, that it should be controlled probably because of what it can do, but no one has imagined what we`re talking about now. It would be interesting to see, Drew. We`ll keep on top of this, whether it becomes a controlled substance.
PINSKY: Well, the other thing for sure, there will certainly be no further prescribing outside of a hospital setting. That`s for sure. I think doctors have learned that lesson. But thank you, Sanjay. I really do appreciate it.
Next, an exclusive with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and some of the recordings of his private conversation with the King of Pop. I want you to stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: My mother knows I feel this way. I would throw in the towel in a second. I would. They are making me hold on.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, SPIRITUAL ADVISOR TO MICHAEL JACKSON: They show you love? Why?
JACKSON: They show me love and they`re telling me, it`s God saying everything`s going to be OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: At the top of the hour, Joy has all the latest on those Michael Jackson audio recordings, extensive coverage of the Murray trial, up next on Joy Behar, 10:00 p.m. eastern. Stay with us for that show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I love them because I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was audio played in court today, recorded by Dr. Conrad Murray, himself, just six weeks before Michael Jackson died while under his care. Now, obviously, Michael was on something at that time, perhaps, propofol. But even medicated, the King of Pop delivered a very heartfelt message that seemed to resonate all his life.
And Michael revealed those same thoughts to his friend and spiritual adviser, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, who taped over 30 hours of conversations with Michael back in 2000, which you can read about in his book, "The Michael Jackson Tapes." It`s available at Rabbi Shmuley`s website, shmuley.com.
Also joining us is Dr. Robi Ludwig. She is a psychotherapist. And before we get to our guests, let`s listen to one of the conversations that Rabbi Shmuley actually had with Michael Jackson on how children affected his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: My mother knows I feel this way. I would throw in the towel in a second. I would. They are making me hold on.
BOTEACH: They show you love? Why?
JACKSON: They show me love and they`re telling me, it`s God saying everything`s going to be OK. It`s like -- it`s like when there`s clouds, dark clouds all over the sky, and you see that little patch of blue, you know, it`s like God saying everything`s going to be fine.
BOTEACH: So, if you`re really down or something`s bothering you, and suddenly, you see a child it`s like God saying to you, take it easy. You see a child and he`s happy and everything`s --
JACKSON: That`s exactly what it is. That`s exactly what it is Shmuley.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, guys. I`m going to toss out a question to you that we may spend the next five minutes just talking about this one question. On one hand, it`s a lovely thought that he had.
And I know you -- I`ve helped you out on a thing at Carnegie Hall for Michael to try to get him seriously involved with children. It was a deep passion of his. But when you actually got him involved, it didn`t kind of go anywhere? Is that right?
BOTEACH: Let`s remember, when you and I appeared with Michael at Carnegie Hall, we didn`t get involved with children. We were trying to influence their parents. After the 1993 allegations, Michael could no longer work with kids. I made that absolutely clear to him. But I also said to him, you`re not the children`s messiah.
Their parents are. You`re not supposed to be building these hospitals and reading them bedtime stories. You`re supposed to be inspiring their parents to prioritize them. And Michael embraced that message. That`s when we did our event. And thank you --
PINSKY: It was lovely, but it --
BOTEACH: And it doesn`t mean -- but Drew, let`s look at what`s happening here.
PINSKY: Yes.
BOTEACH: A massive con was played on the whole world about Michael Jackson the last decade of his life. That con being Michael is fine. He was not fine. He was never fine. I said years ago, he was going to die.
PINSKY: Yes.
BOTEACH: I said it on CNN. April 2004. And I`ll never forget that his family, some members attacked me. And his publicist attacked me and said Rabbi Shmuley is being reckless. What kind of friend is he saying Michael`s going to die. Just look at what`s happening here. Frank DiLeo calls up and leaves a message for Conrad Murray and says Michael is in big trouble. Let`s do a blood test. And then you have Kenny Ortega.
PINSKY: I wish a simple blood test --
BOTEACH: The choreographer is saying Michael`s in trouble. Why didn`t they cut the concerts? Guys, don`t make money. Cut the damn concerts and save his life.
PINSKY: Possibly, it was Michael, himself, that wouldn`t allow that. I remember Deepak Chopra told me that he tried to address this very directly with Michael, and he was dismissed from the inner circle. Michael also opened up to Rabbi Shmuley about wanting to die and his motivation to not give up on his life. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: And every time I felt like I`m at the end of my rope, some kind of way, a kid would show up somewhere. That`s the truth. Just when I can`t take it anymore. And I really want to die. I really do. When I wanted to die, boom, it hits me. And I get on my knees, and I thank God whenever it happens. I do, Shmuley. And so, I believe in it. I really do.
BOTEACH: They`ve always been the source of your hope.
JACKSON: Completely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Robi, I`m going to go to you. And this is the second half of the question that I wanted to open the segment with, which is here`s Michael Jackson contemplating wanting to die, which is called suicidal ideation, which is a sign of severe depression, severe depression. So, we at least know for sure severe depression.
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.
PINSKY: Secondly, this business about feeling the pain of the children. He did a very common thing the trauma survivors do, childhood trauma survivors, which he confuses his pain with other people`s pain. Tell us about that.
LUDWIG: So, it sounds like he was assuming every child was himself --
PINSKY: And in pain.
LUDWIG: And in pain. And maybe they were, maybe they weren`t. It probably made him a very empathic father, I would say.
PINSKY: And I`ve heard that`s true.
LUDWIG: And I think he wanted to be the father he never had. And I`m sure he was very lovable. The problem is, he was very sick, and he was in trouble, and the only way he knew how to live life was on stage. And as you and I know, that`s not enough. I mean, your whole world is not on stage. In fact, most of your life is off stage. But he was a very sensitive, vulnerable guy who just eventually his self-hate took over.
PINSKY: That`s the part, rabbi, I want you to put in context for us, because you`re a philosopher. Well, you are.
(LAUGHTER)
BOTEACH: OK.
PINSKY: You spent years at Oxford as --
BOTEACH: I was rabbi to the students at the university. Look, let me return the compliment. I think the reason why your show is so unique on the Michael Jackson trial is that you understand that fame is an addiction. Robi is absolutely right. Michael was not given the love he craved as a child, so he substituted it for love`s poor cousin which is called attention.
Now, there`s a difference. You get love for something you are, you`re someone`s child. You get fame for something you do, and then, you become more insecure because your talent is now being challenged by younger artists and Michael lived in that perpetual fear. I knew he was never going to do these concerts.
He lived in the fear that he would fail doing these concerts, and that`s why the closer they came, the more drugs he needed. And that`s where you needed some responsible adults who saved his life from himself --
LUDWIG: But he hired them --
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: He was in no state to fire anybody. Listen to the way he was speaking --
PINSKY: Real quick, guys, I agree with everything you`re saying. I have 30 seconds left, though. But help me understand one thing. A great performer, a great gift to the world has been taken from us. How do we understand, as Robi said it, a sick person who`s also a great gift to this? How do we reconcile all that in our own mind as a public?
LUDWIG: They`re two separate things.
PINSKY: You have 30 seconds.
BOTEACH: I think there`s two people. There will always two people in Michael Jackson. There was Michael Jackson, the wounded child, and you hear him speaking about how he wants to do something, consecrate his fame to a higher cause. Then, there was a superstar who had to compete with the Beatles and Elvis, and he never reconciled that tension, that eclectic tension. And it left him lonely.
PINSKY: Neither have we, though. That`s the problem. I`d like to glue those --
BOTEACH: This is an American morality tale.
PINSKY: I agree.
Now, there are some that see Michael Jackson as a saint, a great compassionate man who cared about one thing, one issue, and also the issue that brought him the most scrutiny. Find out next. Stay with us, please.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Michael reveals his innermost thoughts to Rabbi Shmuley. He summed up how the struggles of suffering children, as we`ve discussed, touched him. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: If you`ve seen the things I`ve seen and traveled the way I`ve traveled all over the world, if you were not to be honest to yourself and end the world in that way, I just couldn`t see myself not -- not being touched by what I`ve seen. Like what you said about the village in China and the things I`ve seen in Africa, in Russia, in Germany and Israel. I mean, those babies fighting to live.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Rabbi, how do you make sense of all this?
BOTEACH: Well, just imagine it. Here you have the most famous performer in the entire world, and all he wants is to have what we all have, a normal childhood. And he wants to give the same thing to children. Two parents who will love them and read them stories. Instead, he sees them suffering. He used to tell me they were tied to beds in these orphanages in Eastern Europe.
And yet, what we want is fame, what he had. The one thing Michael understood, and that`s why his death has to be more than just a trial about who`s guilty, is that fame and celebrity are empty, and that relationships are what matter. And he yearned and craved for that.
And let me just say finally since it`s two days before the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, Yom Kippur, Drew, your show has the unique capacity to treat this trial differently because you`re the expert on celebrity. You understand where it leads.
What it leads to is an empty life where you just need more and more of it, and it`s not fulfilling. And it`s relationships that really give life meaning.
PINSKY: That`s it. Period. Robi, you agree with that? I agree 1,000 percent with Rabbi Shmuley, which is even when other people are at the end of their life trying to make meaning of it, they always come to the same conclusion. I`m sure Steve Jobs saw the same thing is that --
LUDWIG: Who you love.
PINSKY: Who you love. Your relationships are what make everything important. Last words.
LUDWIG: Absolutely. Yes. And just, when you`re famous, there`s a fear of being loved for who you`re not. And none of us want that. We want to be loved for who we really are.
PINSKY: And in fact, sometimes, famous people because they are sort of -- they feel like a cartoon character, their real self is not necessarily -- they feel like they`re fearful that somebody will see the true self and that they will no longer get the attention anymore.
BOTEACH: Well, of course, Michael lived in that perpetual fear, which is why there was so much cosmetic surgery, et cetera. But, Drew, you know, in the final analysis, the one thing that this slurring words has done is humanize Michael. Michael, a caricature died, a cartoon character died. When he died, his funeral was a concert.
AEG decided to broadcast it as if it were some sort of performance. No one cried for this man. No one yet mourned for this man. And I look at Conrad Murray as he sees his patient slurring his words and I ask myself, what level of coldness and heartlessness does it take to see a human being in that level of distress and not help him?
PINSKY: Because nobody saw the human being. They saw the famous person. The special person. And then the money adulterated it further. Thank you, guys. We`ll have you both back.
Now, before I go, I want to have some final thoughts with you about Steve Jobs. The Apple founder died today at the age of 56. We lost a visionary with the passing of Jobs. He contributed to the quality of each and every one of our lives probably more than we can realize. He made a difference certainly in my life and the life of my family. I think about it.
It`s like the invention of the automobile for me. Also, a note about how he died. Pancreatic cancer is terminal. Unfortunately, no matter who you are, in many cases, even with all the power and the money in the world, as Dr. Gupta and I were discussing, there are certain things we just can`t do anything about. And this was one of those tumors.
Hopefully, sometime in the future, his passing will inspire better treatment. But for now, certain types of cancer, solid tumors, adenocarcinomas were stubbornly fight us back and are untreatable. R.I.P., Mr. Jobs.
Thank you all for watching tonight. And we`ll see you next time.
END
