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Dr. Drew

Penalty Phase: Jodi Arias on Trial

Aired May 15, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias, will it be life or death?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Upon our oath, we do find the aggravating factor especially cruel has been proven.

PINSKY: And juror number 8 breaks his silence. He was kicked off the jury weeks ago and he is here with me tonight. Our exclusive interview.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening. Welcome to the program.

My co-host, Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hunt.

And, everybody, the jurors have spoken. Jodi Arias, like we didn`t know this, was especially cruel in the way she had murdered Travis Alexander.

Coming up, I`m going to be speaking Jenny exclusively with juror number 8. There`s already a Twitter on this I caught a second ago from @sandykoch (ph). She says, hey, guys, that are interested, juror number 8 will be on @DrDrew in a few minutes. I can`t wait.

And neither can I. This man is very interesting and very earnest and deeply invested in this case and his fellow jurors. You will hear all about that a little bit later on.

First up, today`s aggravation phase packed with a lot of dramatic language. But the real drama I thought was watching Jodi`s reactions.

Take a look at this.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Mr. Alexander suffered pain every time that knife went into his body. Each and every time that that blade went into his body, it hurt, a knife that she brought. And she took this knife and she stabbed him in the chest area, and it was only death that relieved that pain and it was only death that relieved that anguish.

With regard to the stab wounds, is one of those that actually pierced the heart or not?


MARTINEZ: So, there would be pain associated with that, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It would involve more nerve endings generally, so it may be more painful.

MARTINEZ: The back of the head, in the area where the hair is, are there nerve endings there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. There were actually divots in the bone underneath these injuries where the knife impacted. Triangular portions of bone that has been gouged out by the end of the knife.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In this fight situation, the adrenaline is also going to make their heart pump faster as well, right?


MARTINEZ: If the individual is alive and they`re standing at a sink, can that individual hear? The gunshot wound, you indicated that was also fatal. Has (INAUDIBLE) to see that, that`s more mental anguish, more pain. It must have seemed to him -- it`s a short period of time. Yes. Why? Well, because if it`s near the door, somebody may come closer, the smell may go out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Beyond the scope.

MARTINEZ: Why do we talk about exhibit 205? Coup de grace.


PINSKY: I don`t know about you guys, but I`m seeing expressions of disgust and hatred and that 90 degree head aversion, that sort of anger and disdain, not -- again not feeling contrition about all of this.

Let me talk to HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez. She`s here with the latest.

Jean, we`re looking at new exclusive video of Jodi`s arrival at jail. This is right after the verdict. There she is shackled. She appears to be in belly chains.

When that verdict was read, it seemed like she had no reaction. I have my own theories about that. Can you tell us what you observed?

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I`m sitting behind her, so I didn`t get to see what you got to see, Dr. Drew. But what I saw afterwards was she was in charge of her attorneys and talking to them intently about what we`re going to do. I don`t know what she was saying, but it appeared as though she had a list what we are going to do in the next phase. She was very focused.

Her mother was standing there and I think her mother just wanted to mouth something to her and say something to her but she didn`t turn to her mother she was so focused on just talking to her attorneys.

PINSKY: This is where all her regrets tend to be piled up, Jodi Arias, is how her case is going. Not regret of what she`s done, not regret of -- it`s just mindboggling. It really is.

Jean, I wanted to ask one quick follow on.

Does that sort of incongruity read in the courtroom? Like why is she having those emotions now?

CASAREZ: You know, I think the focus at this point is on Travis. It`s not really on her anymore. It`s what Travis went through, the anguish, the pain, the suffering. It was the first time today that within the four walls of that courtroom, I think people really heard the pain that he went through because of the nerve endings being cut with each and every stab wound that went into him.

PINSKY: Well, I`ll tell you what? Nothing hurts more than knife into bone. It`s getting divots carve out of his skull.

Joining us Mark Eiglarsh. Thank you, Jean. Attorney at, attorney Lauren Lake, and psychologist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part."

The jury took about an hour and a half to reach this high stake verdict.

Mark, what do you think?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: No surprise at all. I think it was no surprise from the defense team. They knew it was extremely cruel. What I took exception to surprisingly because I really don`t pay that much attention to Jodi. This isn`t about her, I don`t care about her.

But right away with those tears, I immediately went to Twitter ville. I can`t believe I did it and I was like, you know, those tears are as real as Manti Te`o`s girlfriend, you know?


PINSKY: Who was that? Is that Jenny? Go ahead, Jenny.

EIGLARSH: Too soon?

PINSKY: Too soon. Yes.

HUTT: Listen, I think -- two things. I think, A, the tears are real, but they`re not of contrition like you were saying Dr. Drew. Oh, no, the jig is up.


HUTT: It`s over for me.

But, B, today was the first time that Jodi seemed to me like a human being. And now, I feel weird about the whole death penalty thing. Now, I feel like --

EIGLARSH: I don`t buy it.

HUTT: I feel weird, I don`t know that I want her to die, like I feel weird.

PINSKY: Well, Lauren, go. Lauren, go ahead.

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know what? I look at the defense angle of this case from the beginning and got a lot of hate mail for it. But I keep looking at this girl trying to figure out, is she going to exhibit one human emotion. I didn`t buy the tears today. I didn`t see it.

I thought it was -- I think -- how do you go out and do an interview after you`re convicted of murder one, and then sit up and cry now. It doesn`t make any sense. She`s acting and I don`t want her too.

PINSKY: Robi, I`m going to have you help me her, because Jenny has joined my ranks of being compassionate towards the person --


PINSKY: Robi, hold on. Let me say, Jenny, I`m here for you. When the Twitter verse attacks you, I know what it feels like.

And all I`ve said and, Robi, help people understand this, is that nobody is pure evil. You can see this woman is miserable and suffering. She should be. I`m not saying she shouldn`t be. But it`s the whole situation is sad.

Rather than behaving like a mob that wants to take the pitchfork out and kill the beast, I feel bad for everybody involved. Justice is prevailing. Absolutely it`s going as it should. It doesn`t make it less sad.

Robi, your thoughts?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: It is very sad because Jodi, listen, Jodi killed Travis because she felt he deserved to die, she did not want him to abandon her. And I`m sure she is crying for herself and feeling very sorry for herself.

Having said that, I`ll be honest with you, I kind of like the idea of the death penalty. I know many people don`t. But I don`t know that it fits for Jodi and I`ll tell you why. Here`s a girl who has a history of a mental illness.

Now, I`m not saying she should get off on murder 1 and spend the rest of her life in jail. But this girl distorts the way she views relationships, people and the world. And I`m just wondering, should we kill a person that mentally off base?

PINSKY: Well, Robi, I`ll see you in Twitter jail.


PINSKY: I`ll let you finish it, Mark. I will finish it by just saying, we also have been speculating she is a psychopath and she really has this goal-directed self-preoccupation and really doesn`t appreciate other people`s feelings.

Mark, finish it.


EIGLARSH: In response to those comments, have you ever looked on death row? These are not Snow White. These are not Mother Teresa folks. They all have serious issues.

PINSKY: Right.

LUDWIG: Drew, I understand that. But I want to say, though -- I want to say one other thing. I think there`s a difference between, let`s say, a serial killer or a spree killer, somebody who`s killing strangers and people they have no relationship with and somebody who`s killing somebody based on romance gone bad.

I`m not saying I want her out in the world, I`m not saying she`s not a danger to other people at this point. But I think there`s a difference in this kind of murder, which is horrible. She will spend the rest of her life in prison.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Jenny, the Twitter verse is speaking. There`s an @playgirl66. Jenny has lost her mind. So, there you go.

HUTT: You`re just figuring that out now!

PINSKY: So, we got. Hang on, thank you, guys.

Next up, will the graphic testimony today and horrible images in fact mean death for Jodi. I have a forensic team, there he is, Mr. Knife, will weigh in.

And later, an exclusive interview, you do want to miss this. This guy is awesome. Juror number 8, see what he has to say about this.

Back after this.



MARTINEZ: Mr. Alexander suffered. Mr. Alexander suffered pain every time that knife went into his body, every time that knife blade stuck or struck the back of his head and when the blade went down to his throat, it was certainly also extremely painful. In addition to that, we know that he was alive in the sense he was able to see, he was able to breathe, he was able to hear, so that he knew what was coming, forcing him to endure a horrific hardship, a horrific view of the world, mental anguish.


PINSKY: Back to my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Attorney Mark Eiglarsh stays with us.

You guys have some Twitter reaction to our last conversation. Very quickly, (INAUDIBLE), when any of -- it`s a good point actually -- when any of you lose a loved one in cold blood, then we can talk.

It puts a different perspective on it, that`s for sure.

Now, the prosecution put its forensic expert on the stand today. Now, it is time for ours.

Joining us: CSI expert Randolph Beasley, and pathologist Dr. Bill Lloyd.

And, again, a warning, whenever these two gentlemen join us, it`s going to be a graphic discussion. The material here could be problematic, be warned.

Bill, you said all along that knives tell the story. Explain what you mean.

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Well, in this case, it tells the story of extreme cruelty. By that, we mean grievous bodily injury and mental anguish.

Now, we could all argue about the stab to the back, they weren`t lethal. When she turned him around and delivered it to the middle of his chest, severing his vena cava, it was a fatal blow. Then, the slash to the neck as well, severing the jugular and carotid and massive bleeding. It was severely cruel.

But there`s an added dimension that we haven`t talked about, Drew. The terror dimension.

PINSKY: Right.

LLOYD: From the very first injury that was inflicted, he realized things were going very bad very quick. The lost off the normal sensorium (ph), there`s blood in his face, he`s hearing strange things and, of course, in an enormous amount of pain.

And, finally, the dimension of sound. Do you think she was standing there singing "Closer to Thee My Lord"? Do you think she was standing there saying a rosary for him while he`s pounding away with the knife? Not at all.

She was taunting him and blaming him for all her problems. Add it all together, it`s extreme severe cruelty.


And, Randolph, Martinez not only talk about the physical pain that my pathology friend here is discussing with us from the knife, but also mental anguish, which Bill Lloyd mentioned, mental anguish and what I call misery. There`s a misery part of our brain above and beyond the somatic physical pain part.

There is no doubt, I could not imagine any more misery than what Travis went through. Do you agree?

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR: I agree. And, actually, Dr. Drew, I think the prosecution, of course, thinking all shows the gunshot was first.

In my opinion, if the medical examiner would have said he could have lived 22 seconds instead of two and then used Jodi`s own words against her, the ninja story, you have the anguish and pain she says when he`s shot. Travis is screaming the entire time. He`s holding his head, he`s coughing blood.

And all of that, that extra pain is more pain with the gunshot first. And use her own words against her in that. They kind of dodged the bullet. It`s unfortunate Travis didn`t dodge the bullet but the prosecution did.

PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, I`m going to sort of throw this back to you. I think he`s right. I mean, that gunshot wound, if you were conscious for that, it would have been so painful and scary.

What -- and, by the way, getting knife wounds in the back into the bone of the skull, that is a terribly painful thing. What would you speculate was the most painful things he was actually exposed to?

LLOYD: Yes, a couple quick points. Bones themselves don`t have nerves but the banana peel around the nerves has a sensory rich supply of sensory nerves. The number one most painful thing adults usually encounter in life is a kidney stone. But number two is a rib fracture.

And each time that knife enter the chest and nicked the periostem (ph) of the ribs, he felt it. Every time the knife entered the chest and cut through the pleura, the moist layer that separates the lungs from the rib cage, he felt phenomenal pain, with each and every one, and the pain got worse. Add to that, the terror and the taunting and we`ve got extreme cruelty.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s talk about terror. Jodi is getting is one -- has gotten one step closer to death. What is her death going to be like, should she be subjected to it? Dr. Lloyd?

LLOYD: Well, here`s where Dr. Big Knife becomes Dr. Big Needle. She will experience nothing worse than anybody that`s gone to the hospital for a hernia repair. So, get a shot of Phenobarbital, a fast acting sedative, to make her drowsy. Then she`ll get a shot of pancheronium (ph), the same drug that`s used in curare paralyzes people, people having general anesthesia.

PINSKY: Jenny, want to react? Hang on, Dr. Lloyd.


HUTT: This is all just -- all of it is upsetting. Look, she is a heinous, vile monster. No question about it.

But she does have a mother. She does have siblings. I just feel like it`s sad all around, hearing about the needle and the knives. It`s all disgusting.

Look, she probably should die. But I -- it`s still a human being even though she`s a disgusting human being. That`s all I`m saying. It`s just, ugh.

PINSKY: I agree. I`ll listen -- Mark, I let you in for a second. But, Mark, and, you know, Mark, I deal with people that are not well and do terrible things at times. But my job is to empathize with them. So, it`s very easy for me to go, poor person, they`re suffering.

Mark, go.

EIGLARSH: Well, I just want to remind Jen this doctor didn`t come up with this thing called capital punishment. Our government did.

HUTT: Right.

EIGLARSH: And we do kill people in this country and it`s for these jurors to decide the aggravators versus the mitigators.

The defense today actually -- go ahead, Drew.

PINSKY: I was going to say, we wanted people to know the facts, what I`m interested in.

And so, the facts are Dr. Lloyd, shared with us, pentothal puts her to sleep, curare paralyzes her so she doesn`t breathe.

LLOYD: Correct.

PINSKY: The potassium chloride stops her heart from moving. That`s the steps she`s going to go through.

EIGLARSH: The point was clearly made the death she will face assuming they vote for death cannot plausibly be analogized to the suffering that he went through.

PINSKY: Agreed.

HUTT: Correct. Right.


BEASLEY: Mark, aren`t these jurors just to follow the law? Isn`t that what they`re supposed to do on the death penalty?


EIGLARSH: Of course. Absolutely. What they`re going to do is bring their life experiences, as they`ve been instructed, and some of them are going to feel so strong as one of the guests did in the last segment, I feel it should only be given in this circumstance.

And that`s what concerns me -- all 12 then have to agree that she should either live or die. I`ll believe it when I see it. And if not, we impanel a new jury and that`s just going to be go on and on.

PINSKY: Randolph, you want to get the last word in here.

BEASLEY: Yes. Well, I just think, on the mental anguish, Dr. Drew, picture Travis looking in the mirror and even tilts his head to look at the gunshot as he`s coughing. And the prosecution could have painted that picture just better in my opinion.

PINSKY: And, by the way, Dr. Lloyd, finish. I just want to say before you do, that imagine the family is sitting here listening to these conversations in the courtroom. Jenny, you`re sickened by it because you`re a human being and this is awful stuff. These brothers and sisters are listening to this.

Dr. Lloyd, finish this up.

LLOYD: Yes, we spent three months listening about Travis` suffering. I think we can devote three minutes to hearing about Jodi`s potential suffering. I for one, I`m against capital punishment. But I still want to know the facts.

PINSKY: There you go. Next up -- thank you guys. Juror number 8 is going to break his silence here exclusively and I will be interviewing him and you will see and hear it when we come back. There he is.



PINSKY: A big development with a juror, one of the best note takers apparently being kicked off the jury.

BETH KARAS, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Juror number 8, one of the 10 men was removed. But he sat in the front row, near the public gallery, a big note taker like you mentioned, and also had questions for witnesses occasionally as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is more significant than losing a juror. You`re changing the whole group dynamic.

PINSKY: And another juror made a surprise visit in court today.

KARAS: Yes. Dismissed juror number 8 showed up today. He sat up against the wall on the public gallery side of the courtroom throughout the day.

PINSKY: After having the habit of going in and feeling so deeply invested in this thing, how do you just let go of it all of a sudden?


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, to discuss that just, Mark Eiglarsh, Robi Ludwig, and Lauren Lake are standing by while I speak to Dan Gibb. He is himself juror number 8. He is with us now exclusively.

Dan, that is my first question to you. You were there diligently writing notes. You were invested in this thing and all of a sudden, it`s out of your life. How do you do that?

Is that what made you come back to the courtroom?

DAN GIBB, JUROR #8 (via telephone): Yes. Absolutely. You know, I felt like I had to kind of see it through, as much as I could.

PINSKY: I could imagine. I understand you were till gently involved with this. People would love to hear your thoughts.

Let me start with basic questions like, did Jodi spend too much time on the stand? Did you buy her testimony?

GIBB: Yes and no.

PINSKY: Tell me more.

GIBB: She spent too much time on the stand and I -- I understand, you know, probably the defense`s strategy was for us to, you know, get to know Jodi personally and be that much more difficult to find her guilty and potentially put her to death.

But, you know, they did that early, obviously in the trial. I think - - I think it lost some of its effect over time, as we heard other testimony from other witnesses.

So I do think she spent too much time up on the stand and I personally -- you know, I tried my best to keep an open mind as long as I could and I feel that I did that.

PINSKY: Did you, like many of us, have real difficulty believing anything she said?

GIBB: Some of the things were believable, but not many. You know -- you know, as time went on, you know, it became apparent that more and more of what she was saying was just -- was just too far out there, was just too unbelievable.

PINSKY: How about the witnesses? Were there any witnesses -- what was your least favorite witness the defense put on?

GIBB: Well, I wasn`t really impressed with Dr. Samuels. I know the gentleman`s got a lot of years of experience and all that, but it was just -- he was kind of all over the place. He made too many -- too many errors. He --

PINSKY: He spent an awful lot of time on the fog and the PTSD, didn`t he?

GIBB: Yes. You know, the PTSD thing, it seemed like it was -- I don`t know, it seemed like it was to sidetrack us from the real issue.

PINSKY: You know, Dan, I`m going to give Mark Eiglarsh a chance to ask you a question because Mark has been very interested in the fog since this whole thing started.

Why don`t you ask Dan a question?

EIGLARSH: I have so many questions. I`ll have to pick one for now. I know that your position is I didn`t watch any media reports. For me to believe that, I need to know how it is -- because this thing was everywhere. If you went into the doctor`s office, it would have been on the TV. If you went into a restaurant, it might have been on the TV and you went to work on Friday, I read.

How when people were watching media reports, do they not say things to you, how were you not influenced?

GIBBS: Well, people would approach me, for instance, a couple of occasions at work, I would just tell them, hey, I`m not allowed to talk about it. I can`t talk about it.

If something did come on TV, I would turn the channel, walk out of the room. It was difficult because it is all over the place, obviously. You know, it`s hard to pick up a newspaper and not see it, you know, somewhere on the front page.

PINSKY: I got to tell you, Dan -- Lauren, I want you to respond to what I`ve got to say. I`m proud to have someone like Dan can represent -- he has integrity and takes it very seriously. I don`t -- maybe I`ve lost faith in the jury systems but I`m suddenly today getting pride and interest in our system.

LAKE: No, no, no. It is amazing how -- you know, seriously people take this duty. I`m impressed already listening to Dan. I`ve been dying to ask this question because there were so many parts of the trial, Dan, where we felt like it started to become a battle of the egos between prosecution and defense and not necessarily a battle to uncover the evidence.

And I wanted to know, was there any time as a juror where you kind of felt, hey, can you all stop going at it and give us the facts we need to make a decision? Or did you feel like they were both passionate about the cases they needed to present?

GIBB: Well, yes, there was a lot of -- a lot of the testimony was just way too long and drawn out. It was like, you know, please, just get to the point. That`s all I want, is for you to get to the point.

PINSKY: Yes. And, Dan, actually, I think you`re someone that put some of the more snarky questions into the juror questions.


PINSKY: And I love them, I must tell you. They were very telling from our standpoint as viewers about what you guys were all thinking. I want everyone to look at a question that juror number eight had for defense witness, Dr. Richard Samuels. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said transient global amnesia can be caused by sexual intercourse, immersion in hot or cold water and a number of other things. Is the list you presented all inclusive or could it also be caused by something such as the trauma associated with getting a bad haircut for example?


PINSKY: God bless you, Dan. Again, I`m proud of you.


PINSKY: We all were thinking the same thing. Just you know, you represented the entire country in that question.

VOICE OF DAN GIBB, JUROR #8: I actually -- I had to really think about whether or not I wanted to put that question in the basket, and honestly, after I dropped it in there, I wasn`t sure that I should have. And then, I thought, well, it`s not likely that they`re going to read it, OK? That the judge is going to read it, but then she did. And, I wanted to make a point.

PINSKY: Mark, I got to take a break. I`m sorry. Dan, finish your comment, then, I`ve got take a break. Go ahead.

GIBB: I just wanted to make a point that a lot of the things that he was saying I didn`t believe were credible.

PINSKY: Yes. And listen, like I said, Dan, in a nice glib humorous little twist, you presented an opinion that I think put everyone on notice and reflected what we were all thinking. I think it was well done. Hats off to you for many reasons. But, stay with us. We`ve got more with Dan Gibb, juror #8, this exclusive interview. Please don`t go away. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to come out and tell me why this happened. I will not accept any other excuses. Look at this.

JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: I don`t know. but if I am -- if I go to trial for this and if I`m convicted for this, whoever did this is going to be sitting very pretty somewhere, glad that it wasn`t them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my job to make sure that an innocent person does not go to jail. I don`t see an innocent person sitting in front of me.


PINSKY: I am back with my panel and co-host, Jenny Hutt, and a very special guest, Dan Gibb. He was juror #8 in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Dan, so, I`m wondering what it`s like now to be off the jury and to see in the media a lot of information that the jurors didn`t get to see, such as the interrogation tapes of Jodi and of her family. What`s that like now?

GIBB: It`s very interesting. You know, I don`t really, of course, know why that information was withheld. I can`t really say whether it would have factors into the decision or not. Obviously, couldn`t get any worse at this point than it is.

PINSKY: Right. Right.

GIBB: But, you know, maybe -- you know, maybe it was too prejudicial or something like that.

PINSKY: Seeing that tape, and again, reflecting on this overall case, do you think she has mental illness? Do you think that`s a big part of her story?

GIBB: You know, maybe to some degree. You know, I don`t know because I didn`t -- now that I see some of that stuff, it makes me kind of wonder, you know, like the handstand and all that kind of stuff.

PINSKY: Crazy stuff.

GIBB: Yes. But then, on the other hand, you know, what I was thinking, when, for instance, when Dr. Samuels was testifying and he had the DSM 4 up there at the stand with him and was thinking, you know, that`s a pretty good-sized manual. I don`t know, maybe I`m wrong, but it seems like it would be kind of hard to find somebody that didn`t have something, some disorder in that manual.

PINSKY: Well, that`s actually a reasonable way to think about it, particularly, when you know people are being paid come to up and advocate on behalf of somebody else. Jenny, you`ve got a question for Dan.

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I do. Dan, thank you also for being here, my gosh.

GIBB: Sure.

HUTT: You said earlier in the last segment that you did believe some of what Jodi said. So, can you recall specifically what you believe that she said?

GIBB: Well, you know, hmm. Boy, it`s hard to recall. There`s just so much there. You know, some of the things that she said were not just so outrageous that you know that you could see where they`d be believable, nothing with regards to the actual murder. I didn`t believe, you know, anything that she said with regards to that.

PINSKY: Did you wonder, as many of us did, why she had that tape? Why that tape even existed and what she intended to do with that? Was that a question that came up for you?

GIBB: Exactly. Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: Mark, you have a question?


PINSKY: Please, go.

EIGLARSH: Yes, Dan. Clearly, the defense strategy from opening statement was to trash the victim.

GIBB: Right.

EIGLARSH: I`m wondering if you bought any of the things of the defense, specifically that Jodi alleged about him and I want to know specifically your feelings about her claiming that he was a pedophile.

PINSKY: Yes. Awful.

EIGLARSH: What did you think when you heard that?

GIBB: Yes. I feel -- you know, I feel real bad for Travis` family that, you know, the defense just, you know, dragged him through the mud like they did. And as far as the pedophilia, I don`t believe that whatsoever.

PINSKY: Right. Dan is on the same page as pretty much all of us, which is what I love. Robi, I want to give you a chance to ask Dan a question.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, Dan, I`m wondering if Jodi during the trial tried to engage or manipulate anybody on the jury, and if so, do you think she was successful?

GIBB: Not that I saw. You know, I think, you know, she may of looked at some of the other jurors more than she did me just because line of sight, you know, wasn`t as good with me. You know, she had probably a better view for some of the jurors. But -- and you know, I`d look over there frequently, but I tried to stay more focused on the witnesses and what they were saying and not Jodi.

You know, it kind of -- it kind of upset me a bit whenever I`d see her sitting over there doing whatever she was doing, taking notes or doodling or drawing pictures, or I don`t know what she was doing, but -- or figuring out what her next move was going to be, I don`t know, but it was a bit irritating to me.

PINSKY: Again, as so many of us seeing, no contrition or remorse or usual emotions we would expect to see in somebody like that. I hate to put you in a position to speculate. I understand that you were very close -- you know, even though you didn`t discuss the case, you felt very supportive and close together. Do you think they`re going to impose the death penalty?

GIBB: Gosh. You know, --

PINSKY: That`s not for you to answer. I beg your pardon. I understand why you wouldn`t want to answer that. But I also understand you do have a message for Travis` family and just know that all of us here have a just sort of a deep, deep -- I don`t have words to describe it. We feel for what`s going on with them and watching them cry today was really -- some of them particularly, you can feel their emotions so vividly. What is your message for them?

GIBB: You know, I just can`t even begin to imagine what they`ve gone through. And you know, this isn`t, by any means, going to be the end of this. I know they`ve got a wrongful death suit that`s probably going to go on for some great length of time and there`s going to be an appeal here, so this is going to continue for them and I feel real bad for them and I feel like -- you know, I kind of let them down.

PINSKY: Sorry, Dan, I don`t see how. I beg your pardon. To me, you seem like the epitome of what they would want on the jury and the outcome turned out OK. I understand if it had gone the other way, you would feel that way.

GIBB: Well, that`s the thing. You know, the outcome could have gone the other way and it didn`t. And that`s good. So, you know, I`m glad for them, certainly. But, you know, I mean, there were 375 on the panel, on the jury, you know, selection panel, you know, and over the course of two weeks last December, they took it down to the 18 of us, so, you know, I felt like, you know, I did something worthy of being on that -- on that jury, so -- you know, I just --

PINSKY: Dan, maybe you`re triggering my co-dependency, but I have to stop you and say, my friend, you did a great service.

HUTT: You did a great job.

PINSKY: You did it very seriously. Speaking to you has been a pleasure. You restored my faith a little bit in the jury system. Please, I guarantee you, I predict if that family is who I believe them to be, they will reach out to you and say the same thing, but let`s see how it goes. So, please, hold your head up high. OK?

GIBB: OK. Will do.

PINSKY: All right. Thanks. Thank you to panel as well.

Next up, behavior bureau puts Jodi`s mom under the microscope.

And later, my jury was inside the courtroom for the verdict today. We`ll tell you what they saw.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t have a good relationship, me and Jodi. Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all the time. Call me one minute happy and the next minute, in tears. She wouldn`t ever tell me what she was crying about. She wouldn`t tell me anything, nothing.

She would not even let me come down to Monterey to visit her and stay at her house because she was afraid I would snoop through her stuff. That`s the kind of relationship she had. Since Travis` death, she has been the best relationship that we`ve had.


PINSKY: Back with my behavior bureau, my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Joining us, criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal, Samantha Shacher, social commentator host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and psychologist, Robi Ludwig. Panel, before we go on to Jodi`s mom, I got to get my emotional self back. I`m still back with Dan there.

HUTT: He was really -- Dr. Drew, he`s some kind of fantastic guy. He seemed really fair and balanced and how lovely of him to come and share his experience with all of us. I mean, what a good guy he is.

PINSKY: I spoke with him during the commercial break, and he is every bit off the air what he seemed to be on the air, and he got me. I`m still back with him. So, I apologize for that.

Let`s move on to Jodi`s mom. So, my question to each of you, I`m just going to go around the horn here, starting with Danine, why didn`t -- if Jodi`s mom knew she had mental issues -- why didn`t the mom work harder to get her mental health treatment? Danine.

DANINE MANETTE, AUTHOR, "ULTIMATE BETRAYAL": Well, I`m just assuming that she didn`t work hard. You know, it`s just -- I don`t have any indication that she did anything in furtherance of the information that she had. Maybe she ran into insurance issues, I don`t know. To me, it just doesn`t seem like she did enough.

But I`m not in the home, I don`t know for sure. But, you know, I do think that she ignored a lot of the things or a lot of the signs, maybe she thought they would pass and she would grow out of them. I don`t know. It does concern me, though.

PINSKY: I agree with you, Danine. And we don`t know the facts about it. A lot of things come to bear such as financial or things like that, but, I think you`re right. I think denial played a big role here. Robi, your thoughts?

LUDWIG: No, I agree. I think there was probably a lot of denial and probably Jodi was very resistant to treatment. I mean, you have to remember, at some point, a person has to be interested in treatment in order for it to work. And it`s very difficult to get an adult to get treatment when they don`t want to.

It`s a whole process. And a lot of families don`t know how to get support for themselves when there is mental illness in the family. They don`t even know that it`s mental illness.

PINSKY: It is that whole book (INAUDIBLE) the joke says. If you`re seeing a psychologist, how many psychologists take the screw in a light bulb? The light bulb got to want to be screwed in for them to do it. It`s the same idea, but it`s awful when it`s an adult and it`s awful when there`s real serious symptomatology.

And it sounds like, Samantha, if people are calling -- if your friends were calling your mom in the middle of the night repeatedly and getting worse, what would your mom do?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I would hope that my mom would get me help. But I think it`s so easy to say that. When you look at some of those interrogation videos, where Sandra is being interviewed by Detective Flores, she states that she was trying to get Jodi Arias home. She states that she was hoping to get Jodi help.

And I think at the end of the day that, yes, you can tell her that she should have been more diligent in getting Jodi help and maybe Travis Alexander would be alive today, but you don`t think that she`s asking herself that very question every single day that she`s going through her own personal hell, her own personal anguish. I don`t think that we should kick her while she`s already down. My heart breaks for her.

PINSKY: You guys are holding still now, but you are nodding vigorously yes what Samantha just said. But, it all reminds us all if it`s more collateral damage of Jodi`s behavior. This poor woman, if there`s somebody suffering, it`s definitely her. Now, to blame her for not having gotten help, I got to take pause. I agree with you, guys. Thank you, panel.

Next up, my jury was also in the courtroom today and they are back with us after this.


PINSKY: It is time for Dr. Drew`s jurors. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And my jurors are going to -- of course, it`s Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. You may have heard -- we have interviewed them once or twice from the jury booth. But you guys heard the actual juror talking to us, and this jury wanted to ring in on that jury. Go ahead -- Katie.

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I just want to say to him that, don`t feel bad. Stacey and I sat in that courtroom every day, and we don`t mean -- we would always talk about him, and he is what every jury should emulate. He was always attentive. When we were yawning, he wasn`t. And we always said how -- he had such fortitude.

My heart goes out to him. Even though he wasn`t there until the very end, in essence, he was. So, if he`s still watching, just hang in there. Bless your heart for hanging there in as long as you did and don`t feel bad.

STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, and he really did such a great job, and we had talked before that we really thought he could have been the foreman. I mean, he was just such a leader in there as far as he paid attention. He took notes. I mean, his question that you read, I mean, just gave us --

PINSKY: I wonder if he -- Stacey, I wonder if he did inspire, even when he was gone, I wonder if he helped them arrive at the decision that they felt that he might have done so himself. I want to ask you, Katie, we saw you today sitting with Travis` family. How did that happen? You were in the courtroom with the family?

WICK: I was. Dr. Drew, they invited Stacey and me to sit with them. And what an honor, first of all, but what a difference sitting on that side of the courtroom. There`s just a lighter sense, so to speak.

The two minutes that Juan Martinez had today, the -- it felt like that moment of silence almost for Travis Alexander in the courtroom was so touching and heart wrenching today when he said let`s take a couple of minutes and all you can hear were people sniffling and sort of crying, so to speak, in those two minutes. It`s something that I will never forget and I will take away with me forever.

PINSKY: Yes. Stacey, two minutes of anything, in the ring, being stabbed, sitting there in court, it`s a long time.

FAIRRINGTON: It`s a very long time. And I was thinking, too, it seems like when you`re on an airplane and there`s turbulence, two minutes is a long time. I mean, when you were in fear, walking to your car, two minutes is a very long time.

PINSKY: Got to interrupt you guys. I`m out of time. Thank you. Last call is next.


PINSKY: Jenny, I want to thank all of my guests tonight. And of course Dan Gibb, what a delight it was speaking to him. Very interesting man, and hopefully, the family will reach out to him. Thank you again. Thank you all for watching. And of course, we`ll see you next time. A reminder that "HLN After Dark" is what we will be cutting to next. "HLN After Dark" follows right after us.