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Dr. Drew
Verdict: No Unanimous Agreement
Aired May 23, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: Ladies and gentlemen, I understand you have reached a verdict?
CLERK: State of Arizona versus Jodi Ann Arias, sentencing verdict. We the jury duly impaneled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oath unanimously find, having considered all of the facts and circumstances, that the defendant should be sentenced to -- no unanimous agreement.
CLERK: Juror number one, is this your true verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CLERK: Jury number two, is this your true verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
CLERK: Jury number three, is this your true verdict?
CLERK: Juror number 13, is this your true verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
CLERK: Juror number 14, is this your true verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
CLERK: Juror number 16, is this your true verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CLERK: Juror number 18, is this your true verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
JUDGE: We are going to declare a mistrial as to the penalty phase.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Good evening.
Co-host this week, psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig.
The Jodi Arias verdict as everyone is I think aware is in, the verdict is -- no verdict. The jurors did not come to a unanimous decision on life or death for Jodi Arias. And you heard the judge. This makes this a mistrial in the punishment phase, which will be retried in July.
I`m joined now by HLN legal correspondent Beth Karas.
Beth, where is everyone now? I understand you even spoke to one of the former jurors today. You got a statement from him. Tell us where everyone`s at.
BETH KARAS, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I just got off the phone with Dan Gibb, juror number eight, you know, because the deliberating jurors refused to speak. You know, eventually, someone will speak. They just didn`t want to do it immediately at the courthouse.
So I called Dan Gibb, just so see if he had heard what had happened and to get a reaction from him. And he said he was really disappointed, because he went into the case, thinking, or at least as he was hearing evidence, thinking he could vote for death, but he realizes that he could possibly be swayed either way. And that he`s disappointed that everyone didn`t sort of keep their minds open to either side and really try to reach a unanimous decision and get this case over with.
He said you really can`t imagine what it`s like unless you`re making that decision yourself. It`s easy to say, yes, I can impose death. But once you`re really faced with it, it may be a different thing for a lot of people.
So he`s just disappointed that they couldn`t have resolution.
PINSKY: And the family, as they left the courthouse, how did they seem?
KARAS: Upset. The family is upset. I did talk to the family friend, Sky Hughes. And I said, you know, you just have to tell them to put things in perspective because they won two out of three phases here. They have a first degree premeditated murder conviction. Jodi Arias will never be free.
PINSKY: That`s right.
KARAS: They found the aggravating circumstance. So she`s either going to be in prison for the rest of her life, or she will be on death row and eventually die by lethal injection. But they won. The big victory here is at that they have a conviction.
Of course, it`s a victory for the defense if they had spared her life. But if she had committed this in one of 18 states that does not have the death penalty, it would have been -- this is a life sentence.
PINSKY: Beth, yes.
KARAS: So, you know, many Americans are satisfied with a life sentence.
PINSKY: That`s right. I`m so grad you framed it that way because the big verdict was the first degree murder with premeditation. They got that. This woman either would go to life in prison or she`s going to the death chamber, either way, they`ve got the big verdict.
Thank you, Beth.
My panel, attorney and Sirius XM host Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, and Loni Coombs, attorney and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parent Tell".
OK, Mark, I`ve got a question for you. Listen, you and I, and all of us, we`ve had profound empathy for the family. They are suffering. They are being ground through this horrible experience.
My question is, and maybe I don`t understand this process properly, but why not just call it quits and give this woman life in prison without the possibility of parole. Appeal to the judge for that and not keep going after death?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s something you might to, and that`s something maybe they choose to do. But it`s very personal. It`s their choice. It`s whether they want to go through it.
Their feeling is that she will continue to give those interviews. She will continue to be a menace and trash Travis and that they don`t want to give up. They want to fight to see that she`s in 23 hours a day, in a completely isolated, different environment than enjoying the freedom and the liberty that she will have in the general population.
PINSKY: I get that.
EIGLARSH: I really feel for this, this evening.
PINSKY: I get that. But they`ve been going through this over and over again.
Loni, what -- even if they get a death sentence for her, they`re going to be ground through appeals. If they really want to put this thing to rest, why don`t just let it go tonight and appeal to the judge for life without the possibility of parole?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes, I think you and I would feel that way, we say that, but we`re not sitting in their seats, and we have not lived exactly what they`ve lived.
And only they can say, look, we want to make sure he gets the death penalty or not.
And Juan Martinez, that`s the prosecutor, prosecutor of death penalty case, you really put a lot of weight in what the victim`s family wants to do.
If they came in and said look, we cannot do this anymore. This has ruined our lives, this has ruined our professional life, our personal life, we really need to move on. Let`s just do life without the possibility of parole and be done with it, I think Juan Martinez would say, I respect your position and do it.
But they`re probably not going to say. That`s not in their position but that might be why they put it over until July 18th to give a little time and to see if anybody changes their mind.
PINSKY: But, Jenny, Loni says we don`t know what they`re feeling. We have been watching them going through this excruciating discomfort. I know what they`ve been going through. I don`t want to see them go through anymore of this. Why not? Why not call it quits now?
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Listen, they`re not feeling great, Dr. Drew. You`re right.
I think the fact that there`s no closure here on either side. No healing --
PINSKY: But, Jenny, Jenny, he sits on death row for 30 years and has five appeals, what kind of closure is that?
HUTT: Hold on, hold on. But at least they`ll know, there`s still this hanging over them. Where`s the jury going to go, the next jury potentially? Is she going to be just life in prison, will they come to this agreement of life in prison without parole? Or will she be put on death row? They don`t know what`s going to be.
How long will this drag on? I think that`s an added extra dose of more anxiety, upset and a lack of closure. Enough already, this family has gone through enough.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right.
Mark, go ahead, please? Yes, help me.
EIGLARSH: Drew, Drew. Let me just add this. And I`m not in their shoes, but I`ve tried to put myself there.
They want to see her suffer. They want to see some penalty. She has enjoyed prisoner idol. She has enjoyed the liberty as an alleged being a domestic violence victim -- which she is not. She is hailed as a hero in that place and nothing will change in prison.
So, they want to see her suffer a little bit, at least a little bit. What Travis went through was suffering. She will have gone through nothing if she goes life in prison.
PINSKY: Robi, go ahead.
ROBI LUDWIG, CO-HOST: Yes, and I`m also wondering if the family`s really in a position to make a decision right now. They might decide that it is OK for them to have Jodi in prison for life without parole, but it does sound like their idea of justice -- and they had the high expectation that she could be put to death. And obviously, that`s what they feel is just under the circumstances.
And as a family member, one could see where they would feel that way.
PINSKY: All right. Jane Velez-Mitchell joins us now.
Jane, what is the atmosphere like outside that court room like after this verdict non-verdict was read?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Well, it was like shock, shock, shock, like oh, my God. Unbelievable.
I was there with some of the hardcore court watchers who have made this a part of they are lives. They are sobbing and crying as they get this news. And then the reality of what`s to come sets in. And the fact that many people, including myself, wonder how are they going to do though mini trial on just this penalty phase again, what some are calling a cliff notes trial.
You know that Jodi Arias, whether she has these attorneys or some new ones, will find a way to make it back to that witness stand again. And once she`s in that chair, how are you going to get her off?
And she will seize control of the process, just like she has this time around in a way she`s been the puppet master of this whole thing, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, but, Jean --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s kind of like a dystopian --
PINSKY: Yes, I totally agree with you. Again, that`s why I want everyone to shut it down right now.
But be that as it may, it feels like what`s going on and what I was arguing with Nancy about, about an hour ago, is that the people outside the courtroom won`t be happy unless there`s a death sentence, is that we all knew this was a potential outcome.
Is that the only thing that will satisfy people? Or can we just say, jeez, our system is working, maybe death is too rough a penalty for most juries to give this woman, let`s just make sure she doesn`t get parole?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s a spectrum. It`s a sliding scale.
Yes. There`s a couple people who won`t be happy until she`s gotten that lethal injection and she`s dead. Then, there are people who say, well, it`s a shame, but I can live with it. Then there are people who say I started out for the death penalty, but I just can`t bring myself, we feel like we` gotten to know her.
And then there were those who -- one woman told me she started out and changed her mind and said I`m not for death.
So, I think it`s multi determined. There are many different nuances.
PINSKY: I think -- agreed, Jane. I think everyone would agree, this entire case evokes incredible passions. And right here is a point where it really hits, the rubber hits the road with should it be death or not. There are people on both sides.
And those people are represented on the jury. They`re there on the jury. People crying on the jury, Mark, who wish they could have given the death penalty, and people with their conviction that they could not do that.
I want you a Twitter. This is from Mark, @MarkEiglarsh, please, please, please, knock some sense into @DrDrew. Mark, will you please do that? Oh, my God, really?
So during the break, you can knock some sense into me and we will continue this conversation. Thank you, guys.
Next, so my question to the behavior coming up: why have we reacted the way we have to this development? The behavior bureau digs in deep with our fascination in this trial.
And later, I will speak to a reporter who interviewed Jodi after she gave her statement to the jury. Her reaction to what happened to day. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m absolutely sick. It`s just not right. I can`t believe that the jurors were picked, knowing that this was a death penalty case and they can`t come up with the right decision. It`s not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tonight, no unanimous decision as to the life or death for Jodi Arias.
The trial -- that`s, of course, the trial observer who has very strong feelings. She is devastated by this non-verdict.
Back with me, my co-host, Robi Ludwig.
Joining our behavior bureau, HLN`s Jane Velez Mitchell, Mark Eiglarsh, Jenny Hutt, and clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
First, I want to let you guys know, I think I convened my own behavior bureau on Twitter. This is -- oh, there`s Jodi arriving at the jail right now. We`re looking at some breaking news footage right here. I`m sorry to break in here.
This is her getting taken by, by the police back to jail. We can`t quite see her. I`d like to -- there`s Jodi, no, I don`t see her yet either. Can somebody tell me where we`re seeing Jodi?
EIGLARSH: There she is. She`s covering her face with the manila folder.
PINSKY: There`s Jodi. She`s covering her face with her -- some sort of -- and now it`s gone. Let`s get back to the behavior bureau, can we, please?
Jane, first of all, I want to tell everyone that my own little behavior bureau on Twitter has called me out, this is Muffin Petrovitsky, just said to Mark, you can knock me some sex into me over the break. I swear that`s what he said, a Freudian slip hashtag.
That`s what I said, that`s how little of a break Twitter will give you. I was saying knock some sense into me, and I misspoke.
EIGLARSH: Drew, I`m going to -- as much as I love you, I`m going to take a pass.
PINSKY: Thank you. Mark, I appreciate that.
Jane, you know that woman we just saw before the Jodi Arias footage. Tell me about her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, her father was murdered. And her father was murdered by being stabbed in the back. And so she really related to this trial.
And so, for her, it was like vicariously, she was going to get justice, because her father`s killer, or she told me, killed himself in prison or behind bars, and she never felt that she got the justice process.
So, she was really hoping that this would give her closure. And she cried. And she did have a catharsis today. But she was devastated when she found out that this ended up being a hung jury, because now the closure she was hoping for herself, she hasn`t gotten.
PINSKY: So, Cheryl, there is one aspect. I play that, I wanted to look that one for a particular reason, because she exemplifies one aspect of how we get drawn into the case which is sort of identifying with the process. Do you agree?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I do agree that identifying with the process and having our own feelings like the woman that Jane spoke to, she`s going to have many, many layers of meaning over this.
But the meaning that so many of the people who are devastated out there are having, that is if the vote were for death, they would get closure. And the agony they`re in about what happened to Travis Alexander would be lifted and that they would feel better. People hang their hopes on the idea that if death happens, they will feel that.
Unfortunately, I have to let people know, that the psychological research says that people who witness executions get traumatized. They feel horror. They have nightmares.
The executioner team -- many of them commit suicide. It`s really devastating.
PINSKY: But that`s my point. That is my point. We maybe need to put this on a shelf somewhere and let it be.
Robi, why death? Why is death seemingly the thing that people look toward as the only viable outcome for this case? Can we just let the system function?
LUDWIG: Well, we like to feel that there`s moral order in the world. And I think the one thing about death penalty is that we feel that there are consequences for one`s behavior, and dire consequences for one`s behavior.
So this idea that, you know, if you killed somebody, almost like an eye for an eye. And that`s what feels just on a very visceral level. And I think that`s why people are crying out. People feel very strongly that Jodi really acted out in an unfair way.
PINSKY: Jenny, before you -- go ahead, Jenny. Go.
HUTT: I actually think the visceral level is the opposite. I think the intellectual level says an eye for an eye. But what happens to this jury is they got in the room and some of them were like, an eye for an eye, yes, in principle, because look what she did, it`s a horror show.
But then they thought, how could I actually put someone to death that actually killed someone. It`s very different. That`s where the visceral response would come from.
LUDWIG: Right, if we`re talking about the jury.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Please, Jenny and then, Mark.
HUTT: As Chris Hughes said last night, I think that people would have been happy if there was a resolution, a resolution leak lock her up, let her never see the light of day but for one hour a day, let her never get out. And I think some people would have been OK with that resolution. Would they have preferred death? Yes. But it would have been resolved. There have some resolution, and nothing is bringing Travis back, unfortunately. It bites.
PINSKY: But, Jenny, they can do that. They can still go for that is my point. And that would resolve it, right now, boom, done.
But, Mark, you`re a defense attorney. I`m a physician. The death penalty is not something I`m enthusiastic about.
You know, there are cases where it`s like, absolutely. This put -- let`s get this woman out of our lives and not have her affect everybody and have this poor family suffering like this for how many more months?
EIGLARSH: Yes. Listen, what makes this country great is you`re entitled to your opinion and the family`s entitled to theirs and I`m entitled to mine.
I do want to say something about what Jen said. It seems like most people who are thinking that the jurors did not hold their oath. That they promised to follow the death penalty and they went in there and they said, well, I can`t do it.
There is another option. One other option is they said, I can impose death penalty but I`m going to follow the law. And the aggravators were somehow outweighed by whatever mitigators they found.
And while people are rolling their eyes and saying I didn`t see any mitigators, you`re entitled to feel that way. But these jurors were allowed, if they wanted to, to find their mitigators, and they can make their own determination.
Those calling for their death or harm to them, that`s our system. We don`t have to like their opinion, but that is justice. Justice doesn`t mean you get the outcome you like or expect.
PINSKY: That`s right.
EIGLARSH: It just is.
PINSKY: So, Jane, I want you to --
EIGLARSH: I don`t necessarily agree with everything you say, Drew.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That`s the point. I`m saying the same thing in a different way.
But, Jane, take us home. You`re there. You`re seeing all this emotion fly around. You kind of get where we`re going where this conversation? It`s become a frenzy, it seems like, and I`m not sure that`s the -- I`m not sure -- I think that`s a primitive way to look at what`s going on here.
We should be thinking about the family and how they`re suffering, absolutely. We should understand Jodi is a first degree premeditated murderer, but we seem to be caught up in the sense of our outcome, our sense -- we need to have this woman put to death is the only viable outcome and we don`t trust the system.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s -- I think it`s such a fascinating case study in human nature. And that`s not just concerning the defendant. It`s concerning the trial watchers and everybody who`s become fascinated.
I think that in an abstract sense, it`s very easy to say kill that person when it`s an abstraction, but when that person becomes very real, and you have a relationship with that person, it becomes a lot harder. And that`s what happened when she was on the stand for 18 days and this trial dragged on month after month. I call it the subconscious strategy.
And guess who drove that strategy? Jodi Arias. She`s the one on some reptilian level knew because of her ability to sway men, and she learned this a long time ago -- remember it was eight men on the jury, eight men to four women.
She knows how to work it on some basic level, even if their logical brains are saying, you are a liar. You are scum of the earth. On some level, they are responding to her, and they cannot kill her, because of that intimacy.
You know, a lot of people create intimacy by fighting. It`s not always a loving intimacy. It can be a negative intimacy. And that`s her specialty, negative intimacy.
PINSKY: Well, Jane, her specialty is spin. She has a spin cycle. We`re all in this spin cycle tonight.
LUDWIG: And seduction.
PINSKY: Well, seduction, spin, chaos, that`s her disorder is. We know she`s got that disorder. That`s why she can smile, guys. That`s why she can smile when this kind of thing gets going. This suits her beautifully. It`s a spin cycle and we`re all going into it.
That`s again why my instinct is, hey, put her on the shelf. Don`t gratify here with all of this. Find a way to put her away somewhere. Forget about the death thing. But that`s just me. That`s just me.
Thank you.
Coming up, the reporter who interviewed Jodi after the conviction.
And later, he was friends with Travis and Jodi. He even drove Jodi to Travis` memorial service. His thoughts on today`s verdict.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the participants in this trial, I want to thank you for your extraordinary service to this community. This was not your typical trial. You were asked to perform very difficult responsibilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the judge, actually seemingly choking back tears.
Back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig.
The jury could not come to an agreement about life versus death for Jodi Arias.
Before I`d introduce may panel, another Twitter for you guys, because you guys are going nutty on Twitter tonight.
This is from (INAUDIBLE), I`ve talked about people behaving primitively as it pertains to the death penalty. Primitive is defined by autopsy and crime scene photos. #JodiArias.
Yes, this is a story that invokes intense passions on all sides, and we have to be deliberate at how we approach this.
Joining us: Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, Loni Coombs, Jane Velez- Mitchell. And on the phone, Abe Abdelhadi. He`s the man who once dated Jodi.
And, Jane, I don`t think you`ve ever had a chance to talk to Abe. But I thought putting you two together tonight might be kind of interesting.
Abe, what was your reaction to today`s verdict/non-verdict?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Well, I think she didn`t get her way. The verdict, according to what I`ve been reading, Sheriff Joe`s going to lock her down on 23 hour lockdown, regardless. I was waiting for him to grow a pair (ph). He also locked down her media.
So, I`m glad about that. But as far as the verdict, I have no idea. I`m not going to condemn the jury. I can honestly say that I would have no problem with the conviction, among other things, including pushing buttons and pulling triggers. So, I have no idea what they were thinking when they signed up for this.
Unless you had a political hack who had agenda on this jury to go ahead and do this any way. I don`t know if it was a man or woman and I think those goddamn baby pictures had a lot to do with it.
HUTT: I don`t know --
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead. Hang on, Abe.
Jenny, go.
HUTT: Abe, first of all, I think when it got down to pulling the trigger would be a really tough thing even for you.
ABDELHADI: Actually no, but thank you.
HUTT: Why would have it to be -- why would it have to be a political hack who was uncomfortable with the death penalty? And by the way, I`m not speaking about myself, although I`ve said many times and I heard about it - -
(CROSSTALK)
ABDELHADI: Those pictures were self-serving.
HUTT: Abe, it`s disgusting. She`s an animal. She`s a vile creature. No doubt.
ABDELHADI: Don`t call her an animal, animals are -
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: OK, I think human animal.
But you can`t say for sure that you now what was in the mind of each of those jurors.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDELHADI: That becomes a judgment issue. I have to ask what was in the mind of the jurors. I`m not a judgmental person, but I have judgment.
If you look what she did, the premeditated of it, the aggravated circumstances, the jury voted unanimously on, this is not even an issue of this coming back like a hung jury? At least give her natural life.
PINSKY: Abe, I think she would get that. But, Jane, I want to give you a chance to ask, Abe, any questions that you have. But I think it`s that woman that Jean Casarez keeps reporting on. She looks like Jodi`s mother.
She cried -- when she came when they determined the first degree murder. When I saw that, I knew she wasn`t going to be able to go for the death penalty. I said hung jury all the way through.
We all knew this was a possible outcome. We shouldn`t be that shock. It`s not like an asteroid landed in Arizona.
Loni, I want to give Jane a chance to ask, Abe. Go ahead, Jane. Go.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here`s my theory: this is like a dystopian novel, some futuristic novel or movie where a reality show is really crafted around real horror. I don`t care if you think about the hunger games, but this is kind of like the real inmates of the Estrella jail taking over the asylum.
And in a sense, it`s her manipulative power. She`s now been manipulating the media, doing interview after interview. She`s been pulling the strings on her attorney, turning the play -- and that`s a Freudian slip, the trial into a three act play for herself.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Abe, before you answer, Abe, before you answer, I just realized you and Jane separated at birth. I didn`t realize until now.
But, go ahead. Answer that question.
ABDELHADI: God bless your heart.
I`ve got a question for mark. I`m a layman in this stuff. I just read "The L.A. Times" and "The Wall Street Journal". So, I`m not a lawyer.
Explain to me if the judge have a right to send them back for a second deliberation. Am I wrong on that?
EIGLARSH: No, absolutely. She should have done that. It`s called an Allen charge or a dynamite charge. Listen, a lot of money has been invested, ladies and gentlemen, lot of time energy. We`re counting on you to make a wise and legal decision. Please go back there and express to each other why you`re not coming to some agreement.
And in spite of that, people just felt and we don`t know if it`s one person or a group, it`s pure speculation, did not feel like one side was justified. So, you know what?
PINSKY: OK. Got it.
EIGLARSH: That`s -- we might not like it, but that`s our system.
PINSKY: Loni, go. I`m going to finally give you the -- go.
COOMBS: Yes. I want to just piggyback on what Mark said. This is "the system." And I want to speak up for the jurors here. We are all speculating what they went through and that there was one hanging up and they were crazy. And I think that is extremely disrespectful to those jurors who just gave out six months of their lives ended. The biggest part of this trial which was get the first degree murder conviction and find the aggravating factor.
OK. The fact that they hung on the actual question of death or life is not a shock. It`s not a bombshell. It`s not, there`s a right answer, there`s a wrong answer. We can`t second guess what those jurors did. We need to respect what they did and we need to respect the system and trust it. You know, a hung jury happens all the time. They can retry it and we may have a very different verdict next time.
PINSKY: Loni --
VOICE OF ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Listen, a hung jury happens when you don`t have literature and artwork. This was -- this was -- this is -- I`m sorry. I`m a layman in these matters. This was cut and dry. You had pictures. You had artwork. She admitted doing it. The premeditation was proven. Tell me what I have to empathize with, with a jury who watched and saw what she did and her smugness (ph) and the pictures!
PINSKY: Abe, I know. Yes. I know a lot of people feel like you do. And I think you think it is the childhood pictures that really got the --
ABDELHADI: -- the baby pictures, absolutely it was.
PINSKY: I know. I know. And you told us yesterday. If we`d seen Hitler as a baby, we might have had compassion for him. I don`t know about that. I`m just saying. But be that as may, -- we got to go to break. Loni, bulls eye, bulls eye. That`s exactly what I`ve been trying to put my head around. That is exactly the point, and I think the way to approach it us for us all to have respect for that jury that did put in all that time.
And for the ones that were crying and sobbing and saying I`m sorry to the family, God bless them, but also, God bless the ones who stood up for what they believed in in this process. That`s how things work. You`re shaking your head, Jenny. Finish it. Oh, Jane, go ahead.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN ANCHOR: I just want to say that justice is not blind. Factoring into this is the fact that she`s female, and she`s good-looking. Abe, you dated her. You know you were attracted to her.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something, justice isn`t blind. And there are people being sent to death and being stuck behind bars for the rest of their lives and nobody blinks and they don`t think about it. And they obsess about this case because to, a large degree, they`re -- her looks. And we`ve all got to get honest about that.
EIGLARSH: We don`t know why.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Abe, I`m sorry. I`ve got to go to break. I saw Jenny do a touchdown dance based on what Jane just said. Jane, very polemic. I really admire everybody for being courageous and taking some interesting points of view tonight.
Next, I`ll talk to a reporter who interviewed Jodi after her conviction.
And later, he was friends with both Travis and Jodi. Aaron Dewey joins us on his thoughts on today`s verdict.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: No jury is going to convict me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
ARIAS: Because I`m innocent, and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.
I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who?
ARIAS: I don`t know who they were. I know that I`m innocent. God knows I`m innocent. Travis knows I`m innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow! If you`re just joining us, there was a verdict today in the Jodi Arias case. The verdict was no verdict. They couldn`t reach a consensus. Back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig. Back with us, Mark Eiglarsh, Jenny Hutt, and now joining me is ABC15.com reporter, Amy Murphy. She was one of the few reporters to interview Jodi on Tuesday after she had given her statement to the jury.
Amy, I`ve got a bunch of questions for you. First of all, you were one of the only reporters to ask about the headstand. What did she tell you about that?
AMY MURPHY, ABC15.COM REPORTER: Well, I was actually in the room when another reporter had asked her. So, I didn`t ask her the question. It was such an odd answer, Dr. Drew. She said the reason I did a headstand after I had been charged because I looked around, and I saw this beautiful carpet on the floor, and I figured I was going to a place where I wouldn`t have carpeting anymore and I like to do headstands on carpet. And that was her answer.
PINSKY: Did anybody say, hey, Jodi, now give me the answer you`d given me if we were speaking to each other back on Earth?
(LAUGHTER)
MURPHY: No one said that.
PINSKY: That`s, mark, is an example of the crazy flat out lies and manipulations of Jodi Arias. Robi, go ahead.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. I`m just wondering, I`m wondering if you found Jodi likeable? Because I know when I`ve interviewed people who are in prison and have that sociopathic tendency, there`s something very ingratiating and charming about them. So, I`m just wondering how you experienced her when you were doing the interview.
PINSKY: Interesting.
MURPHY: Well, it, it was interesting. People asked me if I could sense evil. The answer is no. I will tell you, her presence, she`s just a waif of a woman who`s getting smaller. She`s tiny, and she kinds of talks softly. So, you have to lean forward and listen closely. And I think that`s what, unfortunately, Travis did.
Well, he just assumed she was not capable of something so horrific. And I`m sure, you know, she turned on her charms and she talked softly. And you know, she draws you in close, because, you know, you need to hear.
PINSKY: That`s a common thing.
MURPHY: -- that she did it with Travis.
PINSKY: That`s a very common thing. I`m glad you brought that up. That people that have sociopathy, I don`t know about psychopathy, but sociopaths often are very entertaining and very fun to be around. And they just don`t care about your feelings and you don`t find that out until later. Jenny, you have a question for Amy?
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes, I do. Amy, what about her was surprising to you? Because everything you just said makes perfect sense. We sort of know that about. What about her was what you were found unexpected?
MURPHY: Well, one of her answers was most surprising. And that was she told me she was still in love with Travis Alexander.
PINSKY: Awesome. Awesome.
MURPHY: I found that to be shocking.
PINSKY: And that does not surprise me. Robi, does that surprise you?
LUDWIG: That doesn`t shock me.
PINSKY: No, not all.
LUDWIG: No. In fact, people who often kill in intimate partner homicides. They want to kill away the part that they don`t love so they can keep the part that they do love.
PINSKY: It`s this weird idealization --
LUDWIG: Yes.
PINSKY: -- so sick. Mark, what`s your question?
EIGLARSH: I have like a two part question. First, why did she pick you amongst the very few reporters to come in? And then secondly, why did you oblige her when she said don`t film my handcuffs, don`t film from down below. I would have filmed, anyway. Who cares?
MURPHY: Well, to be honest with you, we didn`t want to make her mad, you know? We didn`t want her not to grant the interview. Any reporter would have done this interview, you know, I`ve been criticized for doing the interview. It was the interview to get. You guys are now asking me what it was like. So, that`s why we did it. That`s why we obliged her.
Why did she pick me? I don`t know. I don`t know the answer to that. I don`t know her personally. I came into this trial late in the game. Just before closing arguments, probably because I hadn`t reported anything bad about her. I do know that she completely shut out an entire network and all of their affiliates associated with them because she didn`t like their reporting.
So, you know, I had not had the opportunity to report on the case until then. So, it may just be that reason.
EIGLARSH: I think it is. I think that she even made -- she couldn`t believe that there was a hater, someone actually throwing some hard, tough balls at her, and she was very uncomfortable. I think she wanted people to be soft with her. I think that was --
PINSKY: Jenny, I feel like -- Jenny, I feel like you`ve got another question before we go.
HUTT: No, I was just going to say --
LUDWIG: I do. I actually do.
PINSKY: Robi. Go.
LUDWIG: I think that Jenny also related to you. You have similar coloring and she can feel that you were in synch with her.
PINSKY: Yes.
LUDWIG: You were almost like an idealized version of her.
PINSKY: There you go.
LUDWIG: So, she thought, I`ll pick you, you`re kind of like me. You`ll get me. You`ll understand me. You`ll like me.
PINSKY: And listen, Amy, Amy, we don`t want to compare you with Jodi, but understand that if we saw her doing this in court with Jennifer Willmott. We saw her mirroring other people. That`s how she gets a sense of other people by herself sort of chameleon like, taking on their qualities, like becoming a Mormon if you`re in love with somebody. This is what she does. This is the only way she can relate to people or feel any sense of spontaneous. Let`s call it a self.
Thank you, Amy. We really do appreciate you joining us. Interesting. Go ahead. You want to say something before we go?
MURPHY: I was just going to say, you get more flies with honey than vinegar, and Jodi Arias knows that.
PINSKY: Next, more from our exclusive look inside TravisAlexander`s memorial from a man who drove Jodi to that memorial.
Later, my jury in the courthouse today and they are back with us after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Still with us, Mark Eiglarsh and Jenny Hutt. Joining us now, Aaron Dewey. He was a good friend of Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias. All right. Aaron, where do you come in today with today`s hung jury?
AARON DEWEY, DROVE WITH JODI TO TRAVIS` MEMORIAL SERVICE: It`s devastating, to be honest. You know, I`m with a lot of people out there. I believe that the only appropriate sentence for Jodi is the death penalty, but at this point in the game, I so much would have rather had the jury come back with a life sentence than no sentence at all. It`s completely unfair to the family and everybody else that`s following this case to drag this on for who knows how many more months.
PINSKY: Now, as I remember, you actually took her to the memorial service, right? For Travis.
DEWEY: That`s right.
PINSKY: You had no idea that she was involved in the murder. Things are very, very different now, aren`t they?
DEWEY: I knew that she was being looked at, but at that point, there was no concrete evidence against her.
PINSKY: I guess what I`m asking is, it`s interesting that we have a jury that developed compassion for her by spending time with her, and yet, people that spent time with her don`t have any compassion for her and think she should get the death penalty. How does that work?
DEWEY: That`s a good question. I think, you know, those of us that knew her then and have seen what has come out in the five years since she killed Travis, we really see her for her true colors. We can see through her manipulative tactics that she uses over and over. And so, while members of the jury may not be able to see through that facade yet, we get it. We know who she is and what she`s capable of.
PINSKY: Got it. Mark, go ahead. Mark.
EIGLARSH: I don`t necessarily agree with you just yet. You said that the jurors had compassion. And we don`t necessarily have compassion for her. I don`t know that there`s a -- first of all, we don`t know if it`s one or whether there`s a group of them. We don`t know that they have any compassion for her.
They could have found that there were mitigators that somehow did not outweigh or that outweighed the aggravators and not necessarily have compassion for her but just not believe that legally this was a death sentence that should have been given.
PINSKY: Right. But Mark, but you`re using a sort of mathematical alchemy that I think people use more when they`re trying to --
EIGLARSH: Because that`s the law.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: That`s the law.
PINSKY: I get it, but I think when it comes to penalty, you`re seeing much more gut and emotional reaction, don`t you think?
EIGLARSH: I do. But after a while, these jurors were focused on the law that the judge gave. I don`t necessarily believe that any of them had compassion for her.
PINSKY: OK.
EIGLARSH: I don`t know that show`s capable of somehow emitting any compassion.
PINSKY: Got it -- Robi.
EIGLARSH: I still think that maybe --
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: I`m just wondering if there`s a certain prototype for the type of murderer that gets sentenced to death and if Jodi somehow didn`t fit that prototype because even for juries that are death qualified, they have an idea of who should go to death and who might not.
PINSKY: In other words -- right. In other words, this is somebody who has a lifetime of crime, a serial murderer, that kind of --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Mark.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I can help with this. Look, for some on the jury or maybe 11 of them, she qualified. We don`t know what the breakdown was. OK? It`s very personal. But in many instances I find that the defendants who get death and it`s not necessarily a prerequisite, but a number of them have been convicted in the past. Maybe they`ve assaulted guards. maybe they don`t have anything to offer anybody.
I`m not defending her. I`m just saying that oftentimes you find those who maybe have killed before. I`m not saying that she doesn`t qualify. I`m just saying in those cases it would have been more clear.
PINSKY: OK. Aaron, I want to give you a chance for the last word here. Aaron, you want to ring in?
DEWEY: You know, the only thing that`s left now, I believe that Juan Martinez did a stellar job in this case. He presented an incredible and very convincing case. We know that, because the jury came back with a first degree verdict.
PINSKY: Yes.
DEWEY: We know that because they found the aggravating factors.
PINSKY: Yes.
DEWEY: And I`m confident that he and the county attorney are going to make the right decision on what is the next best step. How can we resolve this as quickly and efficiently as possible?
PINSKY: Thank you, Aaron. We really appreciate you joining us this evening.
Next up, we`re going to check in with my jury. And I`ve got Vinnie Politan and Ryan Smith standing by now with a preview of "HLN After Dark."
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Thanks so much, Dr. Drew. Coming up, "HLN After Dark" top of the hour. Take a listen to this.
What did you hear, Ryan?
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Nothing.
POLITAN: That`s what the jury said after today`s verdict or slash non-verdict.
SMITH: That`s right.
POLITAN: Tough day for them, real tough day for Travis Alexander`s family.
SMITH: Yes. They tried their best. They couldn`t reach it, but you know, we`re going to go through it. We`re going to talk about what`s next. A lot coming up on "AFTER DARK."
POLITAN: We didn`t hear from that jury, but we`re going to hear from this jury tonight. What did they think about what happened in Maricopa County? Top of the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s jurors. Back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig. And of course, joining us, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. Stacey, I have real limited time. What happened minutes ago outside the courthouse?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Dr. Drew, we were standing outside the trailer here and just kind of looking towards the courthouse. And we could see the court reporter kind of walking by, coming out, and then all of a sudden, we were like, that`s juror number nine. Juror number nine just strolling down the sidewalk, right in front of the courthouse. It was pandemonium within minutes.
I mean, you saw cameramen running. You saw reporters running. Everybody was running to get him. And he just kept on walking. I mean, they were all following him. They stopped at the crosswalk area. And he, I don`t know that he`s talked or said anything, but he definitely wasn`t afraid to kind of put himself out there today.
PINSKY: Interesting. Katie, you were with the family all day. How are they doing? Listen, we sweep everything aside (ph) we`ve been talking about today. That`s where all of our concern really is tonight. How were they doing?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": They`re strong, as always, Dr. Drew. Today, I just want to say, this was not a defeat. Jodi Arias is still, and she`s going to spend, regardless of the new jury, life in prison or she`s going to get the death penalty. Yes, they`re devastated. We`re all upset. We`ve been sobbing for an hour, because we don`t want to see the family suffer and go through this anymore.
And it`s a setback, but it`s not a defeat. And they`re strong and they`re going to prevail out of this. I have no doubt.
PINSKY: They`re going to keep going.
WICK: They are.
PINSKY: I wish they`d just put a stop to all of it and just be done with it. Put Jodi Arias away somewhere. And the sheriff is really stepping up and keeping her under lockdown 23 hours a day. So, it`s good where she is right now. All right, ladies, thank you very much for joining us as always. Keeping us updated on what`s going on right there in the courthouse. Last call`s up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It is time for the last call. Rob Ludwig, thank you so much, Robi, for joining me this week, author of "`Till Death Do U Part."
LUDWIG: Thank you.
PINSKY: You know, listen, as we think about what happened today, the verdict, non-verdict, our thoughts and prayers are still with the Alexander Family.
LUDWIG: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Aren`t you kind of relieved they at least get a little breather here now. At least they can go but maybe back to their lives a little bit, perhaps, for a while.
LUDWIG: Yes. And I think what would be tremendously helpful to the family is if Jodi is not allowed to get any more attention, do anymore interviews, because that`s feeding her smugness and her narcissism and rewarding her in a way for a bad behavior.
PINSKY: Yes. I think that`s right. And I think that has been taken care of by the sheriff, so we can look forward to that, but we`ll continue covering this thing as it unfolds. Thank you all for watching. And a reminder, stay with us, because "HLN After Dark" begins immediately.
END
